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Edited September 10, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[Shoeless]

We do not plan to take any AP exams.

I will strongly encourage my student to utilize the free CLEP vouchers from Modern States and to use cheap DE via the CC. 

[teachermom2834]

My 3 homeschooled kids had 10 or so de classes from a local private university spread over junior and senior year. A couple had 1-3 AP classes scattered in there in addition to the de.

My youngest child is in a brick and mortar school and on track for about 10 APs and maybe 1 or 2 de in there somewhere. 
 

In all cases it is because those are the classes that are the best classes available to challenge my students/meet their goals/fit their schedules, not because they are designated AP or de and the benefits that come just from the label associated with them.

FWIW, I don’t believe AP credits will translate into time saved or flexibility in college the way the de credits did for my older kids but as I said, the credits are just gravy for us as the courses we choose are chosen because they are the most appropriate courses available.

Edited June 22, 2023 by teachermom2834

[8filltheheart]

I can't answer bc all of my kids are different, so what might be true for one would most definitely not be true for another.  

I have on gifted/accelerated ds who graduated from high school with something like 50+ cr hrs from AP chem, cal BC, and DE math and physics classes (he completed enough math and physics to basically have the equivalent of minors in both before he even graduated from high school.)  But, equally, I have kids who didn't take any AP or DE classes at all.  

For my kids who have taken CLEP exams, the exam has not been "planned" (as in the course was designed with the intent of taking the exam).  They have completed whatever course and then just taken the CLEP.  (This is a very different mentality than taking an AP exam.)  (ETA:  One of my highest achieving kids didn't take any outside classes at all other than Russian with a private tutor and a DE stats class spring semester of 12th grade.  Everything was done at home and designed by the 2 of us with no outside objectives.  She did end up taking multiple CLEP exams and entered with 30 cr hrs from CLEP.  But the exams didn't influence what we did at home.)

We just do whatever works for the individual child and their personal goals.  

Edited June 22, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Clemsondana]

I have one heading into senior year and another starting 9th grade.  I'm expecting to have different answers for each kid, despite comparable academic ability, because they are just different kids.  For my older, we decided to do chemistry in 9th grade to help the Science Olympiad team, which was in need of kids who knew chemistry.  The co-op class didn't look challenging enough, so I asked if kid wanted to try AP.  We loosely followed an AP syllabus that we found to help with pacing and I did some labs with kid.  The next year, kid chose to loosely follow my bio class, but self-paced at home, and also took a co-op US History class with friends.  Both of those naturally align with the AP exam, so kid used the prep videos to review and took those 2.  This year, kid decided to take AP Engl Lang and Calc BC.  Kid self-studied some but mostly just did the work (co-op English class, self-directed calc at home using several resources).  Still waiting on scores for this year, but those will determine kid's placement for DE.  We've looked at the course of study at the colleges that kid is applying to, looked at what APs will do, and looked for courses that will transfer from DE.  Kid will take whatever English and math is appropriate based on AP scores (second semester comp or 200 English, either calc 2 or 3), and physics with calc.  Kid is currently taking an ethics class DE, which transfers, and took one DE class jr year.  Kid is doing at-home classes to - a second probability, and interest-led coding and possibly another history class.  Our philosophy for high school has been something like...if it's interest-led, let's explore what you are interested in.  If you are just taking a class because you need it, let's see if it aligns with AP.  If it does, take the test.  If it doesn't, that's fine.  For some classes, like chem and physics, kid has said that they aren't interesting enough to want to take twice so making them go away is great.  Even with engineering sequencing, with one summer of classes kid should be able to graduate in 3 years, or double major, or co-op, or work towards a masters, based on the credits that will transfer.  We didn't load up on APs and only took ones that were an easy fit with content that we planned to cover or would specifically help kid skip a college class.  We focused on 'dead end' classes - kid's major required 1 semester of chem, so skipping it is great.  If kid wanted to be a biochem major, I'd say to take it again at college.  I'll also add that tests aren't a big deal for this kid - we joke that science olympiad kids take tests for fun.  So, APs didn't add the stress that they sometimes do. 

For younger, I don't know if we'll do any APs at all.  Even though kid is taking my bio class and I know that it would prep kid for the AP, I don't know that kid will be ready to take that kind of test this year since the class doesn't have any test prep - it's just a solid regular class that covers the content so a motivated student could do well with some review.  I do imagine that this kid will do some DE.  Kid doesn't like school but most jobs that kid is interested in require a a degree.  Kid could choose something that just needs an associates (OT assistant) or may continue with thoughts of teaching and earn credits that will transfer.  Time will tell, but at this point I'm seeing a different pathway.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Clemsondana

[EKS]

I have one kid who took 11 DE classes.  And I have another kid who took one DE class and 8 APs.

[teachermom2834]

It seems like a lot to say my dd is going to have 10 APs while I don’t really care about APs. But it really breaks down to 1 in 9th grade and then 3 (maybe a time with 4) a year the rest of high school. That isn’t even as many as her school offers and her school doesn’t even offer as many as the high performing schools in the area. No wonder some kids end up with so many or feeling like it is such a rat race. Then there are kids taking extra ones outside of school. Geesh…

Anyways that is just an irrelevant musing. I am grateful my experience homeschooling allows me to go into my brick and mortar experience willing to go against the grain and dismiss the craziness. No need to be a collector of APs for my dd but she does end up with them just because that is where the best classes and best teachers often are.

Edited June 22, 2023 by teachermom2834

[Farrar]

College admissions have rarely even heard of CLEP. On the other hand, DE and AP courses carry a heavy weight in admissions. While there can be reasons to use CLEP, admissions is not one of them. I don't find these comparable at all.

[ScoutTN]

My Dd’s choice of courses just did not lead to lots of these. She is a capable but not an intense student and had 3 big ECs that she wanted to spend lots of time on. She had zero interest in the AP arms race! Her college list was mostly regional state U’s, where she would get loads of merit aid, plus a few private Christian schools. No selective schools.
 

We did not plan her coursework to be impressive, but to suit her interests, abilities, and preferences. A slate of APs would have been like school and she didn’t want to do that. We both enjoyed our rabbit trails and the pace/intensity of her studies worked out well.
 

She did AP in math bc that’s where she was in the math sequence. She did AP music theory bc she loves it. She took a CLEP bc she only had three years of a language and wasn’t ready for the AP - still tested out of a year of college work and got credit for it. Her high school classes were at home, at our local tutorial, or online. DE was not feasible in terms of transportation or schedule.  
 

Every kid is different and one year may vary from the last. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by ScoutTN

[8filltheheart]

Not every decision needs to be made based on college admissions and fitting a prefab profile. FWIW, OP, my dd was accepted to every school she applied to (even schools like URochester) with no AP or DE grades. There are other ways to distinguish themselves.

If a student can earn cr via CLEP then that is the Us decision and our opinion doesnt really matter.

 

[daijobu]

 

51 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Not every decision needs to be made based on college admissions and fitting a prefab profile.

Indeed.  My high school dd did not want to take college classes on a campus with adults.  She loved the convenience of AP online classes in her pajamas without the commute.  She was also reassured knowing that she was taking the same high school classes that other students were taking.  And so much less time and work than a CC class.  

From grades 8 - 12 she took the following APs:  CS A, Chem, Bio, APUSH, Calc BC, Stats, Physics C (Mech and EM), English.  Fives in everything, and it's a known quantity for college admissions.  

But this was all before the pandemic.  Your first concern should be accessibility for the exams.  

[Porridge]

Mine is a rising 10th grader. She takes AP exams but does not take AP classes.

She’s taken 2 AP exams, and will sit for AP Calc next year. In our area, AP exam seats are pricey and not easy to come by, so we’ve been trying to minimize AP. 

She will have a total of 4 DE classes for the language that she is studying. She may pick up another language when she finishes this series… TBD.

She will also likely do physics and biology through DE. I appreciate the option for her to have the lab experience.

9 minutes ago, daijobu said:

And so much less time and work than a CC class. 

 

@daijobucould you expand on this statement? Which AP classes did you find to be less work than a CC class? 

9 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Your first concern should be accessibility for the exams.

Yes!

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Porridge

[cintinative]

24 minutes ago, daijobu said:

  And so much less time and work than a CC class.  

I really think this is going to be a YMMV situation. I have observed my niece and nephew's AP workload and it is insane.  Possibly the online providers know how to present the material in the most efficient manner with the most value-added homework. In contrast, my niece and nephew's classes seemed to think AP=workhorse or "the more homework I give, the better they will know the material!"  My niece is taking DE this fall and I think her workload will be dramatically less.  She has been in school or doing homework 7 a.m to 11 p.m. M-F with more homework on the weekends. It has been insane.

Edited June 22, 2023 by cintinative

[daijobu]

50 minutes ago, Porridge said:

 

@daijobucould you expand on this statement? Which AP classes did you find to be less work than a CC class? 

 

I don't have much to add, and I suppose I should probably backtrack since we didn't take any CC classes, so it's difficult to compare.  But from my perspective, my daughter did not have an "insane" schedule.  It just seemed reasonable for a high school level class.  A fair bit of homework, but not too much and not so much that it interfered with ECs and her social life.   She loved her teachers.  

Specifically I can say that AP CS A and AP Stats are low content and easy-peasy, and I'm guessing way easier than anything you'll find in college.  My other daughter basically started her online AP statistics class in February and earned her 5 three months later.  There just isn't that much to learn.   I think AP CS A is a great first AP, since it's really easy and low-content, and does a good job of dispelling the myth that these are truly college level courses.  They are not.  

From my perspective, I didn't need to worry about registration or waitlists or commutes or parking.  And some of the high school students she met online she kept in touch with in college.  We were such frequent fliers, she even attended the PAH end of year party in Pennsylvania a couple of years in a row.  

 

[Clemsondana]

AP classes at many public schools have always looked to me like work for the sake of saying they did lots of work.  My kid (and some others over the years) who took bio or history at co-op and then did well on APs just did the same work for the class that everybody else did.  Obviously these are the kids who did the work and learned the material (usually these are the kids with good grades), but they are in co-op or online class with other people who just consider it a normal/honors class.  

But, my kid has also taken 1 DE class and is taking another over the summer.  The classes - psych and ethics (intro level philosophy) - are both online and kid hasn't found them to be overly challenging or time consuming, either.  Kid will take calc and phyics with calc and English in the fall and I imagine that the combo will be more challenging, but for a kid used to managing a rigorous schedule I don't know know that these will seem particularly more time consuming.  

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Edited September 9, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[teachermom2834]

We always thought of de as the easier alternative to AP. My kids never found their private university or cc de courses challenging but it might also have to do with the peer set. Put them in an AP class in high school they are in a self selected group of high achievers while in their college courses they were always the top students even as high schoolers.  They just never had much work or had to study much for their de courses. However, the universities they ultimately enrolled at for their degrees were much more difficult. So obviously it will vary.

At my dd’s school AP is the top level and de is the next tier of classes. Students that cannot qualify for AP or don’t want to commit to the workload take de. 

So in my world AP is seen as more work. But even within that some APs are way more work than others. And my dd’s school isn’t really big on homework in general. So even the AP classes try not to give busywork and they have a high pass rate. So I do think APs, at least some of them, can be done without the obnoxious workload.

[teachermom2834]

7 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

@teachermom2834 Is DE more “valued” in admissions than AP? 

I agree. At our local HS, the students are all loading up on APs because (according to DS’s friend) “those are the only classes in this school where you learn anything.” Apparently “learning anything” means homework from dawn till dusk. 

@Farrar What are the reasons to use CLEP? I thought CLEP credit was worth more than AP because of the credit hrs awarded for a passing CLEP score. But is AP content harder?

@Farrar can take the question on value for admissions as she is better informed than I am. My kids didn’t do highly competitive admissions. My gut feeling is that yes, at top schools APs are better for admissions even if they don’t yield credit. In my region I don’t think it matters and in my state and average state schools everyone seems pretty happy enough with de. 

[8filltheheart]

26 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

@teachermom2834 Is DE more “valued” in admissions than AP? 

I agree. At our local HS, the students are all loading up on APs because (according to DS’s friend) “those are the only classes in this school where you learn anything.” Apparently “learning anything” means homework from dawn till dusk. 

@Farrar What are the reasons to use CLEP? I thought CLEP credit was worth more than AP because of the credit hrs awarded for a passing CLEP score. But is AP content harder?

Not any of the people you asked, but thought I would offer some suggestions.

Context for these conversations is everything.  Are you asking about how many DE/AP classes simply bc you want answers for admissions purposes or are you asking simply bc you want to get a general understanding of what high school can look like?  If it is for admissions, what type of school are you aiming for?  If you are thinking in terms of extremely top tier schools, then the questions need to expand far beyond AP/DE questions and also focus on building their CV with ECs.

In terms of AP vs. CLEP, AP is more generally accepted with a larger number of schools awarding cr for AP scores.  You can search individual schools to find out what they give cr for based on what scores.  Some of the Us my kids have attended have awarded decent CLEP cr.  Others, not so much.  I disagree with the contention that CLEPs are necessarily easier.  It depends on the test.  The format of CLEPs is all multiple choice which makes it simpler in format, but my kids haven't necessarily found the questions "easy."  (The chem CLEP is quite difficult.  Only 39% of students who take the exam pass it.  I had one dd who earned 2 semesters of cr for STEM major chem via her CLEP score.) 

In terms of course difficulty, if you create your own courses and teach them at home, obviously you have control over the content and difficulty.  Outsourcing means a wide variety of input/output factors.  For my STEM focused kids, DE has been through 4 yr Us, not CC.  We have gone that route bc CC courses do tend to be easier IMO than U courses. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Petrova Fossil said:

@teachermom2834 Is DE more “valued” in admissions than AP? 

I agree. At our local HS, the students are all loading up on APs because (according to DS’s friend) “those are the only classes in this school where you learn anything.” Apparently “learning anything” means homework from dawn till dusk. 

@Farrar What are the reasons to use CLEP? I thought CLEP credit was worth more than AP because of the credit hrs awarded for a passing CLEP score. But is AP content harder?

DE and AP are equally valuable at some colleges. At others, AP is more valued. At others, DE is more valued. It depends. Because it depends, it's often good to use the one that's best for you and your situation. 

AP courses have value in admission. AP scores can too, but the course in and of itself is valuable. CLEP is nothing in admissions. If you know where a student is going to attend (or a very likely guess) and know they take CLEP, then they're easier and you can go rack up the credits. But pay attention to if there are limits on transfer credit, if they take some CLEP and not others, and if they allow them to be used for majors. 

ETA: Totally seconding the above that why you want to know these things matters. If the goal is to get more credit in high school, it requires a different answer than if it's to see what's the best way to look good for colleges and yet another answer if it's to get the most rigorous path. Where you live can also impact what options are available and make sense. As can your budget.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Farrar

[Shoeless]

I took a lot of CLEP and DSST exams when I was in the military, (they were free for us). I got good enough scores on most exams to place out of some pre-reqs, which made for a lighter schedule when I went back to school full time. In my case, the lighter schedule meant I could focus on my core classes and earned a scholarship for my sophomore year. 

No regrets in taking them. I wish I had taken more of them, in fact. 

[Penelope]

Just as the value of AP vs DE might matter from one place to another and comparing one course to another, not all AP’s are considered equal.

I agree that AP CS-A is not a rigorous course, but others like Psychology, Geography, and even Physics 1 and 2 are also not very difficult courses. In their goal to dominate the college entrance game by expanding AP to more schools and students, the College Board has succeeded in making many AP classes be what an honors high school course used to be. And they continue to do this with the more recent CS Principles and Precalculus, for example. 
 

Colleges know this. The more selective schools don’t give credit for some of the AP courses, or they only give credit for 4/5, or the credit that they give for a score (even for a stronger AP) is essentially a credit for a remedial course that is not useful to the student. I think that will only continue as this dumbing down in the service of corporate interests continues. 

[Arcadia]

If you are considering overseas universities like your UoP thread, APs are usually what overseas colleges have conversion tables for. They usually don’t take CLEP and they typically don’t understand DE credits. 

[regentrude]

Neither of my kids did any APs or CLEPs. Those didn't agree with our educational goals.

DD did 32 credit hours DE in Physics, French, and English at a 4-year university. She went on to attend an extremely selective school with a single digit acceptance rate.
DS did 6 credit hours.

Edited June 23, 2023 by regentrude

[BusyMom5]

DD1- graduated with 54 college hours, and later did a CLEP for a second US history that was required at her school.

DD2- graduated with 32 college hours, and pretty much maxed out courses that transfer for her major.

 

We don't have access to AP tests without driving hours, so it isn't something I've considered an option.  

[Eos]

Nothing else to add to the wisdom above except that I valued my kids' DE experiences in and of itself - none of my kids had ever been to school and I wanted them to have some experience in literally walking through the door, selecting a seat, participating in class discussions, seeking out office hours, organizing their workload, etc before going to college.  This wouldn't have been the same for virtual DE.  We were lucky to have a small LAC nearby rather than a CC, this gave them a more realistic feel (including for my oldest who was STEM.)

Edited June 23, 2023 by Eos

[Sebastian (a lady)]

18 hours ago, Farrar said:

College admissions have rarely even heard of CLEP. On the other hand, DE and AP courses carry a heavy weight in admissions. While there can be reasons to use CLEP, admissions is not one of them. I don't find these comparable at all.

 

18 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Not every decision needs to be made based on college admissions and fitting a prefab profile. FWIW, OP, my dd was accepted to every school she applied to (even schools like URochester) with no AP or DE grades. There are other ways to distinguish themselves.

If a student can earn cr via CLEP then that is the Us decision and our opinion doesnt really matter.

 

I absolutely agree that not every academic choice should be made with a view towards college admissions (which varies a lot across the spectrum of colleges anyway).

But I've seen homeschoolers recommend CLEP as a way of providing an outside verification of academic preparation. But when I ask college admissions reps if they would consider a CLEP score during their admissions review, they often don't even understand the question and refer me to the registrar for credit info.

Maybe it helped way back when. Maybe it never mattered to the college admissions offices, but homeschoolers suggested it to each other anyway. But I think homeschoolers imbue these tests with more value than the admissions offices do.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My older kids did a lot of AP classes and DE classes. The AP were a mix of online and course syllabuses I designed and submitted through the College Board course audit. Though I'll also say in some cases it wasn't the AP course that prepped them for the exam,  but what we'd done for years previously. Ironically, one son wrote on The Odyssey for his AP Lit test, which was something he'd read for fun. 

The youngest isn't fast at tests, especially with essays. I did far fewer APs with him and more DE. 

When considering options, there are lots of factors to weigh. Accessibility of AP exams, accessibility and cost of college courses, student strengths and goals, transportation, internet access, desire for classroom experience, access to science labs, and potential for letters of recommendation. 

I try not to make sweeping statements about AP vs DE. There are so many differences between and across them. Try to compare apples to apples and within what is available and practical. A self-paced online AP might be just the thing for one student in a particular subject, but a disaster for another.

I don't think it's useful to try to say one is better or harder or easier. 

For credit value, it's best to look at the policies for specific colleges. University of Hawaii grants credit for AP broadly, in part because they have so many courses at different levels that there is a course for even a 3 to be equivalent to. Whether that meets a degree requirement is a separate issue. 

On the other hand, Stanford grants credit for relatively few APs and generally requires a high score. Different institutions, different policies. 

[regentrude]

Besides thinking about your goals with AP/CLEP/DE as others have already pointed out, an important consideration is your student's personality.
With AP, whether credit is earned or not, depends solely on the performance at an exam that happens at one prescribed date/time. If the student has a bad day, too bad.
In contrast, credit in a DE course is earned cumulatively over the course of the semester, which makes it a much better option for students who are stressed out by high-stakes tests. In addition, DE will allow the student to learn how to navigate a college class.

Ultimately, it all comes down to your educational goals, the classes you have access to, and your student's personal situation.

One thing I want to point out, which you may know already, but which comes up over and over again with the transfer students I advise: most STEM disciplines are highly sequenced. Having two years worth of gen ed credits will not reduce the student's time at university by two years if they didn't also work on their math and science credits. Every year I have transfer students with 30 credits who are disappointed that they still need four years because they are starting with the freshman math and physics, and can't take the higher classes because they do not have the prerequisites. Just something to keep in mind for folks who want to use college credits earned in highschool to shorten the time at university.

Edited June 23, 2023 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

20 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

@teachermom2834 Is DE more “valued” in admissions than AP? 

I agree. At our local HS, the students are all loading up on APs because (according to DS’s friend) “those are the only classes in this school where you learn anything.” Apparently “learning anything” means homework from dawn till dusk. 

@Farrar What are the reasons to use CLEP? I thought CLEP credit was worth more than AP because of the credit hrs awarded for a passing CLEP score. But is AP content harder?

With three kids, my answer is different for each.  One ended up going to ps, so it was a bunch of APs but no DE, another had a mix of AP and DE, and the third did only DE (with all DE being done on at the CC).  Youngest had an Associate's by the time she finished high school and only had to do two years at University to get her BBA (I only recently realized from another thread that's what she has - I also didn't realize that was a thing and thought it was a BS).

I don't think CLEP is so great for admissions (as someone else said, I don't think most colleges know what they are) - but if they accept credits for them, they can still be useful, specifically to get out of GenEd classes that are possibly going to be redundant or get in the way of more interesting/useful content for the student.  My older two both took the English Comp CLEP.  First one placed into Honors English Comp at the CC but the 'good' teacher was on maternity leave so took the CLEP instead and got credit for the class without having to take it.  Second one was the one who went to ps for high school but hadn't taken AP English because she wanted to concentrate on AP Physics/Calc and not overload herself with APs.  She was already accepted at University, and wanted to double major or major/minor and lamented the two semesters of Comp she didn't need, then remembered the CLEP.  Signed up, a one-hour no-study test later and two semesters of English Comp no longer needed.  Double major achieved.

[cintinative]

I don't have one in college yet, but I can relate to what @Matryoshka is saying. My oldest is using CLEP to complete some gen eds.  Between the CLEP and the DE he is doing in high school, he will be able to add a certificate or another minor/major to his program in college.

We have only used CLEPs for courses we covered at home already.   We are using them to test out of classes my kids don't want to take again in college which are not critical to their degree sequence.

I am not sure if the OP was asking this, but as has been pointed out, you only get college credit for APs if you get a certain score on the AP exam, and that varies by college.  So my nephew took a ton of AP classes but got very little credits because he didn't pass many of the exams (he is not a good test taker).  But he did get the GPA boost from the APs. 

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Edited September 9, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

One thing I want to point out, which you may know already, but which comes up over and over again with the transfer students I advise: most STEM disciplines are highly sequenced. Having two years worth of gen ed credits will not reduce the student's time at university by two years if they didn't also work on their math and science credits. Every year I have transfer students with 30 credits who are disappointed that they still need four years because they are starting with the freshman math and physics, and can't take the higher classes because they do not have the prerequisites. Just something to keep in mind for folks who want to use college credits earned in highschool to shorten the time at university.

This too.  It's not impossible, but you have to be very intentional to pull it off.  My dd did it with a Business (Accounting) degree, and I have a friend whose kid did it with Computer Science, but the DE classes were at the CC and not just GenEds but the very specific freshman/sophomore prereqs that allowed those student access to the junior/senior level classes immediately upon transfer.  The CCs in question had agreements with the 4-year (public Universities) that those classes would be transferred and given credit as the same pre-req classes at the Uni.  This was only possible because the kids carefully took the right classes at CC (classes I doubt would be offered at a high school DE program), and then transferred to public Unis with the agreement (in our case it's a statewide program, so it works with more than one public in-state Uni).  If they'd just done GenEds or random classes, or wanted to go to a private or out-of-state Uni, it wouldn't have worked out.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Matryoshka

[Farrar]

39 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

For admissions purposes. We were thinking about CLEP for testing-out of gen ed and non major courses (as @Matryoshka and @cintinative pointed out). And (since our target is a STEM major) considering APs and DE in the sciences, even if there is no credit awarded for them. 

Just trying to figure out how we can test out of as many gen eds as possible, while also getting the math and science credits towards a degree.

Your answer seems to contradict itself? Admissions and satisfying gen eds by getting college credits are two different goals. They might overlap. Or not.

If you're thinking about admissions, you should consider AP or DE classes and potentially also AP exams. But which one is right (and you can mix and match - we did), depends on a ton of factors, including your individual kid and where you live and your budget, among many other things. If you're thinking purely about credits and satisfying gen eds, it really depends on what individual universities the student is considering. If they'll be looking mostly at state schools, especially non-flagships, then CLEP is likely a good possibility, but it might be for other schools too. This just all depends.

[regentrude]

50 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

Just trying to figure out how we can test out of as many gen eds as possible, while also getting the math and science credits towards a degree.

APs only cover math through calc 2 and the first two semesters of physics or Chem. There are no APs for higher level courses.

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Your answer seems to contradict itself? Admissions and satisfying gen eds by getting college credits are two different goals. They might overlap. Or not.

If you're thinking about admissions, you should consider AP or DE classes and potentially also AP exams. But which one is right (and you can mix and match - we did), depends on a ton of factors, including your individual kid and where you live and your budget, among many other things. If you're thinking purely about credits and satisfying gen eds, it really depends on what individual universities the student is considering. If they'll be looking mostly at state schools, especially non-flagships, then CLEP is likely a good possibility, but it might be for other schools too. This just all depends.

I agree.  The response is confusing.  If the main purpose of CLEP is to accummulate crs, then the target universities are probably NOT going to really care about DE and AP crs for admissions. Not that they won't look at them/use them, but that selective schools don't give CLEP cr and getting admission at an avg school just really isn't that difficult (at all, imo). 

I think clarifying your objectives will make your life and your student's high school yrs much less stressful.  All 3 earn college credit.  Where the different ones transfer in as cr toward a degree depends on individual schools.  You could waste a lot of time and $$ on courses that you think will end up counting toward a degree that won't. 

I'll ask again.  What schools are you targeting bc that will help in receiving better responses.

 

[Matryoshka]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Your answer seems to contradict itself? Admissions and satisfying gen eds by getting college credits are two different goals. They might overlap. Or not.

If you're thinking about admissions, you should consider AP or DE classes and potentially also AP exams. But which one is right (and you can mix and match - we did), depends on a ton of factors, including your individual kid and where you live and your budget, among many other things. If you're thinking purely about credits and satisfying gen eds, it really depends on what individual universities the student is considering. If they'll be looking mostly at state schools, especially non-flagships, then CLEP is likely a good possibility, but it might be for other schools too. This just all depends.

And always check specific schools as to what they accept and for what scores.

Our state flagship will accept the English Comp CLEP to get out of Freshman Comp, but not AP English Lit - not even with a 5!  They will accept AP English Comp, but for some reason that AP is not offered at any in-state school I know of, just Lit.  So only helps out-of-state applicants (or people who take it outside of school).  

Edited June 23, 2023 by Matryoshka

[Farrar]

I think this is why getting bogged down too much in specific schools can make families overwhelmed. AP Lit can be an excellent, challenging course to take for its own sake as well. Some of the outsourced options for it are some of the best online courses out there in homeschooling, IMHO, like Blue Tent's class or Lili Serbicki's class.

I see three different purposes that sometimes overlap and sometimes do not:

1. You want to choose the courses and have the EDUCATIONAL objectives that are right for your student and align with your family goals. This is rarely about tests and credits. This is that deeper stuff you want your student to be exposed to, skills you want them to have, specific things you want them to read, etc. Only you can answer this question and it's very individual.

2. You want to be sure your student can gain entry to some of the sorts of colleges they want to attend. For this, having outside verification like dual enrollment and AP courses and/or scores can help. But most colleges accept most students so how much of this sort of thing you need can really depend on the sorts of colleges the student is targeting. Plus, there are other ways to get outside verification, like SAT/ACT scores and letters of recommendation.

3. Many families also want a student to be able to shave off some of their gen ed requirements. That can be to save money, to decrease the pressure, to skip large boring courses, or to free up time for things like study abroad or double majoring. CLEP exams, AP exams, and DE classes can all potentially do that. However, some universities don't allow more than a semester of credit to transfer and they're super particular about it. Others allow a ton and will take nearly anything. And everything in between. So this answer is extremely individual to the goals.

[Alice]

I only answered for my one kid who homeschooled all the way through high school. He did 5 AP classes and took an additional 2 AP tests. The goal was mostly because the classes were the best educational choice for him. We also felt like it was helpful on his application. I knew he was a good test taker so anticipated he would score high.

We might have done more DE but it was during the pandemic and everything was online. The AP classes were also online but what we found (personally and from talking to people who took classes at the CC) was the the homeschooled AP classes online were higher quality as they had mostly figured out how to teach online. Some of the online classes at the CC during the pandemic were not great as the teachers hadn't figure out how to offer a good class online. He also was young for his grade so couldn't drive until senior year and it was easier to do classes at home with two other kids at home than to drive him to the CC. I mention that to say that often the choices people make might have more to do with the reality of logistics than which one is "better". 

We didn't do any CLEP. This may be unfair but the impression I got from the people I knew who really pushed CLEP was that it was really just a way to check off boxes and get through college faster. I wasn't convinced it was going to do that as we didn't know if colleges would give credit and we didn't really have the goal for him to finish in less than 4 years. Of note, his college does limit credits that you can use. You can only count AP credits from 11th or 12th grade and the total number is limited. And you have to take math and foreign language tests to place into the course that the AP tests might say you can take, you aren't just automatically given that credit even with the score.  

My second son started 10th grade at an IB school. He will take some IB classes but not the full diploma. He is also going to do a DE class for English in 11th and 12th grade. Those choices worked best for him. My daughter will start 9th grade there. I anticipate she will take a lot of IB classes and perhaps do the full diploma, she's more of a test taker and also more motivated by outside achievement. 

[BusyMom5]

I have my kids to DE at the CC campus and I think it provides a great opportunity to be in the classroom,  advocate for themselves, navigate issues with grades, questions about assignments,  get a feel for how to study- just lots of experience before going to a bigger school.  

[Dmmetler]

S had 3 DE classes, no AP or CLEP

L had over 70 college credits earned between a few schools, but only one AP. Almost all core academics starting in 8th grade were college courses. DE was just plain easier to access, but we might have done more AP had senior year not been 20/21-L had been considering applying internationally and would have needed a few AP's for that, but COVID stopped that plan in it's tracks. 

M may have 2-3 CLEP or DE, but isn't scheduled for any for fall semester right now.

C isn't there yet.
 

 

[lewelma]

My older boy had 4 AP equivalents (NZ national exams in chemistry, physics, calculus, and English) and 2 DE (which were a huge waste of time and only 1 got him credit). He also had a post grad diploma in Music Performance from ABRSM.

To gain credit, ds had to take the final exams for each course in the week that he walked into campus - he took univariate calc, multivariate calc, and differential equations (there were limited slots so he could not take them all). Retaking physics was well worth his time because he took the honors sequence his freshman year and it was amazing. Retaking chemistry was a waste of his time because he learned nothing new.

Edited June 24, 2023 by lewelma

[Malam]

On 6/22/2023 at 1:51 PM, daijobu said:

I don't have much to add, and I suppose I should probably backtrack since we didn't take any CC classes, so it's difficult to compare.  But from my perspective, my daughter did not have an "insane" schedule.  It just seemed reasonable for a high school level class.  A fair bit of homework, but not too much and not so much that it interfered with ECs and her social life.   She loved her teachers.  

Specifically I can say that AP CS A and AP Stats are low content and easy-peasy, and I'm guessing way easier than anything you'll find in college.  My other daughter basically started her online AP statistics class in February and earned her 5 three months later.

Where did she do AP CS A and AP statistics?

[daijobu]

7 hours ago, Malam said:

Where did she do AP CS A and AP statistics?

Both were at edhesive, which sadly is no longer available to homeschoolers.  I do still have the materials for AP statistics; if you DM me I'll send you a link.  

The loss of edhesive is such a shame.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

Both were at edhesive, which sadly is no longer available to homeschoolers.  I do still have the materials for AP statistics; if you DM me I'll send you a link.  

The loss of edhesive is such a shame.  

It is. My son did AP CS back when it was Amplify, before it was Edhesive. At the time, they were all about access to the course material and didn't charge students. 

Alas, that changed when the course materials were sold.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Sebastian (a lady)

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

It is. My son did AP CS back when it was Amplify, before it was Edhesive. At the time, they were all about access to the course material and didn't charge students. 

Alas, that changed when the course materials were sold.

OMG, if I could buy their IP and just put the site back up.  The class pretty much ran itself.  

[Momto6inIN]

My kids found CLEP to be most useful *after* they knew where they were going to college and trying to test out of as many gen eds as possible for their particular major at that particular school. It didn't really have any effect on their admissions apps or high school experience.

[000000000]

.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

More specifically: It is the credit over college approach. We are not yet targeting any specific schools. Studying overseas seems less practical when considering that they might not take any previously earned college credit.

Since the first 2 years of a 4 year degree are mostly gen eds, is it at all possible to CLEP (or DE) out of all of them, find a college (probably will have to be instate, and with an articulation agreement in case of any CC classes) that will take this credit, and go straight to the degree courses? 

 

Not only will many colleges abroad not take dual enrollment credits, but they often won't take homeschoolers. 

So, you're hoping to earn college credits in order to shave off time in college. That does mean limiting where you apply, at least somewhat. 

The idea that the first two years of college is mostly gen eds is very overgeneralized. My son's college experience isn't like that at all. It also wasn't like that at most of the schools he considered. Many colleges have fewer gen eds and a more open curriculum now. Lots of schools have only about a year to year and a half of general distribution requirements and it's not uncommon for them to be allowed to be in your major so that you really have even fewer. So, for example, maybe you have a "writing intensive" course, but you can take any course with that designation, including an option in your own major. It's also the case that more and more schools have more open ended courses for general distribution requirements, so students aren't stuck taking one of a small handful of basic survey courses but can take more specific and interesting topics. Of course, other schools do rely mostly on these basic survey courses and have two solid years of requirements.

But... this is the folly of spending too much time focused on the ends and outs of this. If you don't know where a student is going or what they want to study, then I think the best thing you can do is focus on the first goal - the type of education you want them to have. And then on the second goal - getting that outside verification to open more doors. 

As for AP courses being high school or college -- AP courses are college level content that's geared toward high schoolers. They are mostly college level content that would be a single semester in college spread into a full year for high school. Because they're for high schoolers, some of these courses are "safer" in content typically for students than college courses which can have more discussion of adult topics like sexuality, violence, drug use, etc. in the context of literature, politics, current events, psychology, sociology, etc. At the end of the course, students can take an exam to potentially get college credit. Or not. The course is valuable in and of itself because college admissions see them as rigorous. Some of them also are rigorous, especially compared to other options. It just depends.

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

APs only cover math through calc 2 and the first two semesters of physics or Chem in college? There are no APs for higher level courses So AP is advanced high school level but not college level?

Bolded were your responses, inside the quote of my reply.

AP is equivalent to *introductory* college courses (first two courses in Calc, phys; first semester English comp; general history survey courses) a strong, aka "advanced" highschooler can manage. There are no APs for upper level college classes beyond these.

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by regentrude