What does the term neurodiversity or neurodivergent include to the best of your knowledge?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm asking because I had one definition (which I will say later) but on another forum people were using it to include a "diagnosis" that I had never connected with neurodiversity before.  I am wondering if my definition was too small.  BTW - google had my definition but I did find a couple of sites that included the other as part of it as well.  But I value the scholarship on this board with regards to terms like this and would like to know what you include.

[Melissa Louise]

I work with an amazing neurodiverse teen - she includes herself due to ADHD, and dyslexia. 

I hear it mostly used in regard to autism, but also ADHD and a smattering of other diagnoses.like dyslexia. 

 

[Carrie12345]

Hm. I guess to me it’s an umbrella that definitely includes ASD, adhd, processing disorders, bipolar, possibly anxiety, and probably just some of the big traits that those things have without full blown dx criteria. I think my sister puts a PD in there, too. Maybe schizophrenia?

That’s just my off the cuff answer.

ETA: I agree that dyslexia fits in there, too. Just didn’t think of it

Edited June 20, 2023 by Carrie12345

[Jean in Newcastle]

My own answer is:  people on the autism spectrum, ADHD, dyscalculia, dyslexia, dyspraxia. But on the other forum people were insisting that it meant intellectually delayed people. I did find intellectual delay on one chart on the internet but I was surprised at their insistence on that as being a key part of neurodiversity. 

[Rosie_0801]

I'd include autism, ADD, ADHD, dyslexia and that whole conglomeration. 

Mental illnesses and other learning difficulties are often co-morbid (isn't that a horrible word?) with the above, but I wouldn't include them. I don't know if I'll change my mind about that later if I learn more about how they work. I wouldn't include intellectually delayed people. If we bring IQ into it, that makes gifted people neurodiverse, which they may or may not be, just like intellectually delayed people may or may not also be neurodiverse.

Are sensory processing and audio processing problems their own thing, or part of the aforementioned neurodiversities? I don't know if they show up by themselves or if they are always co-morbid. (Ew again. What a word!)

[Melissa Louise]

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My own answer is:  people on the autism spectrum, ADHD, dyscalculia, dyslexia, dyspraxia. But on the other forum people were insisting that it meant intellectually delayed people. I did find intellectual delay on one chart on the internet but I was surprised at their insistence on that as being a key part of neurodiversity. 

This is what I understand - not ID. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Interesting. I would consider giftedness, at least at the extreme end, to be a form of neurodiversity. 

Anxiety, and all of the conditions that fall under its umbrella, I consider as mental illnesses.

[Drama Llama]

I would include ID, I think of ND as an umbrella term that includes all forms of developmental disabilities.  

I think that people with ID are often hurt by attempts by other people with disabilities to draw a boundary to separate themselves from people with ID.  I can't tell you how often I hear that people with ASD or LD or another disability deserve respect or human rights or inclusion in society or to be paid a living wage because they aren't ID, which obviously implies that people with ID don't deserve those things.  

[EKS]

Technically neurodiversity should include neurotypical as well as the rest.  Whereas a neurodivergent individual would not be neurotypcial.

(Sorry, it drives me crazy the way people will use the term "neurodiverse" to describe an individual when it actually describes a population.  I realize it doesn't address the actual question!)

Edited June 20, 2023 by EKS

[Dmmetler]

Neurodiversity is everything that falls outside the range of neurotypical, but is most often used for autism, ADHD, and similar conditions. 

It often feels like ND is used for "disability-lite", but it's also a useful blanket term that, at least so far, has not become a slur or insult. 

[Lecka]

Until very recently I thought it only meant autism.  
 

Then I was surprised to hear ADHD included, but I’ve heard that a while.

 

I have definitely heard it include some mental illness.  
 

I think it has gotten extremely broad with the younger age group, and that’s fine with me.  If that is how the term is now used in a fairly common usage, then that works for me.  
 

 

[Arcadia]

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But on the other forum people were insisting that it meant intellectually delayed people.

My late cousin has down syndrome. They are also included in the neurodivergent umbrella. Savants are included too.

[freesia]

I always thought of it as mostly relating to ASD and ADHDl.  I never thought of dyslexia being part of ND. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

Neurodiversity is everything that falls outside the range of neurotypical...

A neurodiverse population would include folks who are neurotypical.  A neurodivergent population would include only those who fall outside what is considered to be neurotypical.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Thanks for the perspective that being neurodivergent includes ID. The argument on the other forum was more restrictive:  ND equals ID. And I feel confident refuting that part but I will expand my understanding of the umbrella to include ID. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

(Sorry, it drives me crazy the way people will use the term "neurodiverse" to describe an individual when it actually describes a population.  I realize it doesn't address the actual question!)

OMG same! I've heard people say someone was diverse. A single entity cannot be diverse. 

[Carrie12345]

37 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Thanks for the perspective that being neurodivergent includes ID. The argument on the other forum was more restrictive:  ND equals ID. And I feel confident refuting that part but I will expand my understanding of the umbrella to include ID. 

That’s… an odd argument. I mean, I can’t imagine my son could be considered neurotypical by anyone who knows him even fairly well. His neurology is most definitely not typical! But he’s brilliant. 

[vonfirmath]

Neurodiverse to me is a reminder that people can react in ways other than I am used to -- and yet not be rude. They are doing the best they can. So many challenges that we cannot necessarily see from the outside in our casual day to day activities.  It's a reminder to me to be more patient.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

That’s… an odd argument. I mean, I can’t imagine my son could be considered neurotypical by anyone who knows him even fairly well. His neurology is most definitely not typical! But he’s brilliant. 

Mine too. 
 

The argument was that employees at a local business that hires neurodivergent employees were ok breaking the law because neurodivergent people have too low IQ and also too low moral standards to be expected to follow the law. It was a mess of an argument. And frankly discriminatory against those specifically with ID as well.  

[ktgrok]

ASD and similar diagnoses, ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, and often also includes dyslexia and other learning differences. 

[ktgrok]

not an answer, but wanted to add in that I love the term "neuro-spicy" that I've seen floating around lately!

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

not an answer, but wanted to add in that I love the term "neuro-spicy" that I've seen floating around lately!

I’ve been hearing this as well, and it’s an especially good fit for one of mine who I have heard use it for himself 🥰.

 

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

not an answer, but wanted to add in that I love the term "neuro-spicy" that I've seen floating around lately!

I like it too. 🙂 Not everyone views their neurodivergency as a disability per se (even if they do need or benefit from accommodations); it's a great term to remember we all have our quirks (please no tomatoes or misunderstanding me, I'm not making light of how hard ASD , ADHD etc are).

[bookbard]

So there was a good article, I think in The Conversation, which looked at this term. It was created by an Australian academic I think, a sociologist, as a political term to point out the different way of thinking some people have. So often the terms already mentioned are listed in terms of deficits, but ignore the different way people might view the world. It's definitely not a medical term.

I have seen it for autism, adhd, dyslexia and giftedness. I think the positive of it is considering that the world might look different to different people. The negative side is the rigidity of some people who now think "all neurotypical think like X". The reality is that everyone views the world differently, based on nature/nurture/history etc. My daughter was watching some video that was like "do you get sudden headaches - you're neurodiverse!" It had a whole lot of other 'symptoms' - I am pretty sure it's a new identity a lot of young people are embracing. 

It's really important to see the diversity within a diagnosis, as well as between. There was a great book by Temple Grandin and Sean Barron (unwritten rules of social relationships). Both of them have autism; but they are totally different. 

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Mine too. 
 

The argument was that employees at a local business that hires neurodivergent employees were ok breaking the law because neurodivergent people have too low IQ and also too low moral standards to be expected to follow the law. It was a mess of an argument. And frankly discriminatory against those specifically with ID as well.  

That is now high on the list of the most disgusting things I’ve ever heard. 

[bookbard]

Interview with the woman who coined the term: In conversation with Judy Singer... (autismawareness.com.au)

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

OMG same! I've heard people say someone was diverse. A single entity cannot be diverse. 

I don't know about that. When you've got autism and ADHD both arguing for priority in your head, marinating in dyslexia/dycalculia/dysgraphia sauce, with auditory processing issue sprinkles on top, I reckon we're pushing the boundaries of prescriptive language.

[Ali in OR]

I hear it used mostly in association with ASD. I would never use it for my severely disabled low IQ dd. I do refer to her as not NT, or I make a distinction between her and NT peers, so to me "neurodivergent" is not synonymous with "not neurotypical".  

I was in an IEP meeting where the parents were hoping to connect their son with ASD to neurodivergent mentors, or would talk about solutions that embrace a neurodivergent viewpoint. They are not referring to people like my dd, but to others out there on the spectrum.

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, EKS said:

A neurodiverse population would include folks who are neurotypical.  A neurodivergent population would include only those who fall outside what is considered to be neurotypical.

Good reminder about language, thanks. Will try to stop being sloppy! 

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

That is now high on the list of the most disgusting things I’ve ever heard. 

Well yes. Which is why I immediately protested. And others have backed me up. But of course the person who posted it to begin with is digging in…

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

That is now high on the list of the most disgusting things I’ve ever heard. 

Ok, this is a new development. The woman who was saying this has disclosed that she and her daughter are both autistic. And both were told by teachers that they were intellectually delayed. They’ve internalized that despite going to college. She just thanked me for showing her that people don’t think that people like her can’t learn or make good choices.  

[Rosie_0801]

13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Ok, this is a new development. The woman who was saying this has disclosed that she and her daughter are both autistic. And both were told by teachers that they were intellectually delayed. They’ve internalized that despite going to college. She just thanked me for showing her that people don’t think that people like her can’t learn or make good choices.  

I hate it when professionals tell people crap like that.

I met a lady who'd been told her deaf toddler would never learn to read. I've no idea why not and I don't know that she believed me when I told her I'd known several Deaf people with PhDs. Really, Lady, your kid will learn to read if you make sure she's taught. I hope she did. Fancy teaching a woman to write off her kid at the grand old age of ONE.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I hate it when professionals tell people crap like that.

I met a lady who'd been told her deaf toddler would never learn to read. I've no idea why not and I don't know that she believed me when I told her I'd known several Deaf people with PhDs. Really, Lady, your kid will learn to read if you make sure she's taught. I hope she did. Fancy teaching a woman to write off her kid at the grand old age of ONE.

Yeah me too. 
 

But even my 40 something year old nephew with Down syndrome, who has a mental age of about five, has a happy life with lots of friends and family who love him. In his case he can’t read more than a few words like his name but he has a job he goes to. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But even my 40 something year old nephew with Down syndrome, who has a mental age of about five, has a happy life with lots of friends and family who love him. In his case he can’t read more than a few words like his name but he has a job he goes to. 

He's doing better than me. Cheers to him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

He's doing better than me. Cheers to him.

I guess my point is that he is doing his best- for his circumstances. But doctors back when he was born over 40 years ago wanted to institutionalize him. I’m glad that his parents resisted.