S/O of DQST: I live in one of those states.

[KidsHappen]

Here is a link to TN's LBGTQ rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tennessee

Please note the law that prevents transgender children from using the bathroom (presumably any bathroom?) in public school and the one that prevents male or female impersonators in public (vague much?). Transgender people cannot change their legal documents. We have a transgender pronoun law. And of course the denial of health care related to any gender dysphoria.

Also notice that in several instances a person can be denied their legal rights based on the "sincerely held religious beliefs" of an agency and in practice even the beliefs of the person servicing them. It is not a legal right if it can be denied based on someone else's religious belief. You hear a lot of conservative talk about how none of these new laws have anything to do with religion but you can clearly see beneath that here in TN.  

When I moved here 20 years ago, I fell in love with the place even though it was slightly more conservative than I would prefer. Over time we decided that we didn't want to move again and that we would probably retire here. Over many years, I finally managed to get all my girls here. But with all the legal changes happening here over the last 5 or so years. I can hardly stand to live here anymore. My children keep me here but my anxiety increases daily as the laws change. 

[Faith-manor]

We have a non binary in law/ son's life partner, and now we are afraid to have them come to what was supposed to be our retirement home in Alabama because they have to pass through Tennessee, having a car break down, needing the rest area...we feel like there could be serious danger. G wears gender neutral clothing, yet looks fairly feminine, uses they/them pronouns. I feel like they are at serious risk of someone calling the cops, and said cops beating or killing them. TN has become a tinder box of lunacy. It is only a matter of time before politicians give the full okay to declare open hunting season on the LGBTQ community. We have talked about flying, but everything that is straight through is crazy expensive, and the affordable flights route through Nashville or Atlanta. Atlanta might be okay, though I am not sure what the airport security would be like if someone complained about my two gender neutral/they-them loved ones. But Nashville scares the poop out of me.

We have been sickened by all this. If Alabama gets on the Tennessee band wagon, we will have to sell our dream home there. I will bawl all the way to the real estate office. Our daughter and son in law are scared. Our oldest grandson's favorite colors are  pink, magenta, and orange. He loves rainbow decorated things. He is 7. It shouldn't be dangerous for a 7 year old to wear a purple shirt with a rainbow over a field of horses - another favorite thing. But, they feel like if Alabama follows TN, they will have to tell him he can't wear his favorite shirts until daddy can get a job up north, and they can move.

They love Huntsville. Son in law loves his job. And they love living in our house, known as Shangri La. We wanted to have a winter retreat (mid-Oct - April) from Michigan weather and close to really good hospitals, but not Florida. Northern Bama fit that bill. I am heart broken. I keep hoping that Alabama won't go completely off the rails. But I think that hope is probably going to die.

 

[KidsHappen]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

We have a non binary in law/ son's life partner, and now we are afraid to have them come to what was supposed to be our retirement home in Alabama because they have to pass through Tennessee, having a car break down, needing the rest area...we feel like there could be serious danger. G wears gender neutral clothing, yet looks fairly feminine, uses they/them pronouns. I feel like they are at serious risk of someone calling the cops, and said cops beating or killing them. TN has become a tinder box of lunacy. It is only a matter of time before politicians give the full okay to declare open hunting season on the LGBTQ community. We have talked about flying, but everything that is straight through is crazy expensive, and the affordable flights route through Nashville or Atlanta. Atlanta might be okay, though I am not sure what the airport security would be like if someone complained about my two gender neutral/they-them loved ones. But Nashville scares the poop out of me.

We have been sickened by all this. If Alabama gets on the Tennessee band wagon, we will have to sell our dream home there. I will bawl all the way to the real estate office. Our daughter and son in law are scared. Our oldest grandson's favorite colors are  pink, magenta, and orange. He loves rainbow decorated things. He is 7. It shouldn't be dangerous for a 7 year old to wear a purple shirt with a rainbow over a field of horses - another favorite thing. But, they feel like if Alabama follows TN, they will have to tell him he can't wear his favorite shirts until daddy can get a job up north, and they can move.

They love Huntsville. Son in law loves his job. And they love living in our house, known as Shangri La. We wanted to have a winter retreat (mid-Oct - April) from Michigan weather and close to really good hospitals, but not Florida. Northern Bama fit that bill. I am heart broken. I keep hoping that Alabama won't go completely off the rails. But I think that hope is probably going to die.

 

You are right about TN and I would be nervous in your shoes as well. We are watching AL and considering a retirement move to Huntsville which is about two hours away. 

[Kassia]

@Faith-manor I'm sorry.  I hate that people can be SO ugly.  😞 

[Farrar]

I couldn't bring myself to comment in the other thread because there was so much distracting (I would argue purposefully) noise about how drag supposedly mocks and hurts women and about the whole meaning of "family friendly." But laws like this make it clear the attack on drag isn't about that. It's about policing everyone's gender expression. I would argue it's even about policing cis peoples gender expression because the vagueness of the law in TN specifically seems to encourage everyone to try to stay in a specific lane. Can you get arrested for wearing your boyfriend's sweater? Butch haircut? Being someone who is just mistaken for the opposite gender even if that's not your intension? Could my long haired cis son who was often mistaken for a girl have been targeted with this law? What about wearing a Halloween costume as a character of an other gender? Playing Viola in As You Like It? I mean, according to this law, maybe. It's a law designed to make everyone feel like they should be adhering closely to gender norms. That hurts everyone.

It's about excluding people from public spaces. It's giving the police permission to target you for not following gender norms as they see them. It's dangerous on so many levels. And it's not even really about drag. And it's definitely not about people who have read queer theory or people who are mocking women. These laws are scary for all of us.

[TheReader]

I'm having the same feelings re: my (previously) beloved home state of Texas. I've not always agreed 100% with the politics, but one thing that I always cherished here was that the conservatives in gov't were really, truly about keeping gov't small, and NOT making laws that legislated how people could parent their own kids. 

Now TX has totally flipped that script, in the name of "parental rights" and it's the most baffling, heartbreaking, sickening thing, and I don't know what to do about it at all, how to feel, think, etc.  ALL of our family is here, all of them, and as I look around at other states, I can't even tell where it would be safe to move to if we ever decided to move (I won't leave TX while my Grandma is still alive). 

 

[Farrar]

For those who are curious, because of laws like the TN one (and the TX, FL, etc. ones) this blog estimates (extrapolating from poll data) that as many as a quarter of a million people have already moved and that another million Americans are considering moving. 

[KidsHappen]

7 minutes ago, TheReader said:

I'm having the same feelings re: my (previously) beloved home state of Texas. I've not always agreed 100% with the politics, but one thing that I always cherished here was that the conservatives in gov't were really, truly about keeping gov't small, and NOT making laws that legislated how people could parent their own kids. 

Now TX has totally flipped that script, in the name of "parental rights" and it's the most baffling, heartbreaking, sickening thing, and I don't know what to do about it at all, how to feel, think, etc.  ALL of our family is here, all of them, and as I look around at other states, I can't even tell where it would be safe to move to if we ever decided to move (I won't leave TX while my Grandma is still alive). 

 

TX was my ancestral home. I have much extended family there. I have lived there many times in many different locations and I remember being proud to be Texan.  My last dc was born. Half my grandkids are there. At one point in time we thought TX would be our retirement home. Now I am afraid to visit my dd, dgc and brother there. So we decided to stay in TN which seems to be trying to be the next TX. And I much like you feel trapped.

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, KidsHappen said:

TX was my ancestral home. I have much extended family there. I have lived there many times in many different locations and I remember being proud to be Texan.  My last dc was born. Half my grandkids are there. At one point in time we thought TX would be our retirement home. Now I am afraid to visit my dd, dgc and brother there. So we decided to stay in TN which seems to be trying to be the next TX. And I much like you feel trapped.

Hugs to you; it's so difficult. 

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, Atlanta and some of the close suburbs are still OK. The airport is a nightmare,but thAt's because it's huge and busy. Having an X pronoun doesn't raise an eyebrow. I do suggest PreCheck if you have to check in there, both because the wave scanner things tend to struggle with bodies that don't match what the TSA agent guessed, and just due to time, but changing planes is OK-althiugh can be a long walk. Atlanta has a very vibrant LGBT community and the colleges contribute a lot. I'm still kind of hoping L chooses to go outside the US for grad school, and I want to get M out of the South for undergrad if at all possible, but overall, I feel like we dodged a bullet because of all the places L applied, as of right now, Atlanta seems the most sane. But whether it will be allowed to stay that way....I don't know. 

 

It is terrifying living in TN. Because "just talking" invariably ends with a bunch of new laws, and they're all bad.  I really feel like M has no options for school this year. The public schools aren't safe for them. The tutorials have gotten as bad. But mom and I both have pretty busy work schedules. I'm really hoping they get the ACT scores needed for DE. 

 

One reason why I stay at the community center is that I at least have support from the administration to continue to be supportive to my teen students. When I can't, that's when I will be quitting. 

 

[1234]

I was born and raised in Texas and will never go back at this point. 

We moved to Chicagoland a year ago because we could see what was coming. It’s way more expensive than most states we’ve lived in (except CA), but we’re hoping we are spared from the worst of the craziness. My dc are early twenties and pretty fearful. So many people just truly suck right now.

[Dmmetler]

I'm seriously looking at NM. I loved it there as a college student, and, well, it seems like the only combination of good laws and affordable COL. But it's also moving to a desert during a climate crisis where water is an increasing issue. And DH, the native Floridian, likes humidity.  Going internationally is likely not an option for me due to health issues and age. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dmmetler

[Farrar]

For those thinking about the options to be in a place where you can support family, students, etc., the blog I linked above tracks the safety of various states in legal terms.

I feel like the whole northeast is very safe, but of course the cost of living and the weather don't suit everyone. Luckily climate change is making it warmer! Oh, wait, that's not necessarily good. Sigh.

[mommyoffive]

I saw this on the news this week. Just posting it for anyone looking for a good place to live where this is important.

LGBTQ+ people may find "sanctuary" in Dane County, Madison

 

However, the sadness of me posting this sickens me.  This should be every city and state in the country in 2023.  None of this "laws" should be happening or even talked about in this day and age.  I am sad, mad, and feel hopeless that politics are where they are currently and effecting the control people have over their own bodies.  I just don't understand why anyone would want to police  someone else's body.  

There are states for sure that currently I am not ok with living in, my kids going to college in, and even visiting them puts me on edge. 10 years ago the politics wouldn't have been a reason of why I wanted to move to a certain state.  But now that would be my number one on the list of what I am looking for to move somewhere. 

I feel like we have gone backwards and it will take forever to get to where we were just a few years ago.

[City Mouse]

I don’t have any family members impacted directly by these new discriminatory laws, so my plan is to eventually move back to Texas and spend my retirement years fighting against such laws. I don’t want to put any specific details here just in case, but I think it is important for those not directly impacted to continue to vote against the politicians that put such laws into place. 

[Terabith]

It’s laws like this that are why I say that the goal is cultural or literal genocide.  I truly don’t believe it’s hyperbole.  They want trans people, especially, dead.  Some states have laws that say medical providers can decline to treat trans people.  Not just for gender affirming procedures, but for anything.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  Every single trans person I know has a story or many stories about doctors who have said they “don’t feel comfortable treating people like you.”  Emergency providers (EMTs and doctors) refuse to treat trans people (and mock them) regularly, and laws support their right to do so.  Neighbors on local Facebook groups have profiles about wanting to kill trans people, with pictures of guns. I really don’t think I am hyperbolic, and it bothers me when people say I am exaggerating, especially people who have kids who are trans.  It feels like gaslighting, even though I don’t think that is the intent.  
 

My entire extended family lives in Tennessee, and I just can’t see a way to safely take my oldest there, even though they pass, even with top surgery, as female.  They have an X on their gender marker.  It’s just terrifying.   

[Lady Florida.]

I'm in Florida and it breaks my heart what's happening here. This is not my native state but it's been my home nearly all my life and there's so much I love about it (nature mostly). Also, I don't know why Florida gets most of the negative publicity about this kind of thing when sadly it's happening in a number of states.

I have a friend with daughters who recently left because she fears for them. I have another friend who recently came out as lesbian and is considering leaving. What's worse is that she's a teacher and has to hide who she is while at work.

This is my home. My people are here. My heart is here. Those of us who stay in these states need to work hard to make changes. It won't be easy and it won't be quick but it can be done. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Lady Florida.

[Dmmetler]

1 minute ago, Lady Florida. said:

I'm in Florida and in breaks my heart what's happening here. This is not my native state but it's been my home nearly all my life and there's so much I love about it (nature mostly). Also, I don't know why Florida gets most of the negative publicity about this kind of thing when sadly it's happening in a number of states.

I have a friend with daughters who recently left because she fears for them. I have another friend who recently came out as lesbian and is considering leaving. What's worse is that she's a teacher and has to hide who she is while at work.

This is my home. My people are here. My heart is here. Those of who stay in these states need to work hard to make changes. It won't be easy and it won't be quick but it can be done. 

DH's entire remaining extended family is in FL, including a trans nephew and a NB nibling. Unfortunately, their college funds are completely in FL's state college system due to buying prepaid tuition credits, making getting out hard. My nibling will be attending UF in the fall, my nephew graduates this year. 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It’s laws like this that are why I say that the goal is cultural or literal genocide.  I truly don’t believe it’s hyperbole.  They want trans people, especially, dead.  Some states have laws that say medical providers can decline to treat trans people.  Not just for gender affirming procedures, but for anything.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  Every single trans person I know has a story or many stories about doctors who have said they “don’t feel comfortable treating people like you.”  Emergency providers (EMTs and doctors) refuse to treat trans people (and mock them) regularly, and laws support their right to do so.  Neighbors on local Facebook groups have profiles about wanting to kill trans people, with pictures of guns. I really don’t think I am hyperbolic, and it bothers me when people say I am exaggerating, especially people who have kids who are trans.  It feels like gaslighting, even though I don’t think that is the intent.  
 

My entire extended family lives in Tennessee, and I just can’t see a way to safely take my oldest there, even though they pass, even with top surgery, as female.  They have an X on their gender marker.  It’s just terrifying.   

Yeah, I don't understand how everyone doesn't FREAK OUT that there can be laws that a medical provider can decline to treat you because of their own beliefs. Like, here comes the EMT, oh, that's a person who isn't living their life in a way I agree with, I guess I'll just let them die from that car accident. How are we all not worried for ourselves!? Do you think you live your life the way every single medical provider is cool with? Because think again.

Genocide is definitely the goal. Things like outrage over drag queens reading picture books in public are a way to distract people from realizing that genocide is the goal.

[Dmmetler]

11 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It’s laws like this that are why I say that the goal is cultural or literal genocide.  I truly don’t believe it’s hyperbole.  They want trans people, especially, dead.  Some states have laws that say medical providers can decline to treat trans people.  Not just for gender affirming procedures, but for anything.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  Every single trans person I know has a story or many stories about doctors who have said they “don’t feel comfortable treating people like you.”  Emergency providers (EMTs and doctors) refuse to treat trans people (and mock them) regularly, and laws support their right to do so.  Neighbors on local Facebook groups have profiles about wanting to kill trans people, with pictures of guns. I really don’t think I am hyperbolic, and it bothers me when people say I am exaggerating, especially people who have kids who are trans.  It feels like gaslighting, even though I don’t think that is the intent.  
 

My entire extended family lives in Tennessee, and I just can’t see a way to safely take my oldest there, even though they pass, even with top surgery, as female.  They have an X on their gender marker.  It’s just terrifying.   

It's scary. So far, we've gotten by with simply not labeling the bathrooms in the basement at all, and using the excuse that it's much faster for kids in groups to be able to use both vs ending up with a long Line at one and the other empty. Hoping that stays. 

We're doing surveys for parks and rec and trying to set our 5 year priorities. The single request I made as an instructor was family bathrooms. Because I know no one will support "uh, trans people need a place to pee", but they might actually support "uh, Dads need to be able to take daughters to the bathroom, too" 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, I don't understand how everyone doesn't FREAK OUT that there can be laws that a medical provider can decline to treat you because of their own beliefs. Like, here comes the EMT, oh, that's a person who isn't living their life in a way I agree with, I guess I'll just let them die from that car accident. How are we all not worried for ourselves!? Do you think you live your life the way every single medical provider is cool with? Because think again.

Genocide is definitely the goal. Things like outrage over drag queens reading picture books in public are a way to distract people from realizing that genocide is the goal.

Right. This right here. I fully expect at some point for a doctor claiming to be Christian to deny me medical service because I am not. I expect this to happen for my son and G. I expect this to happen to our other adult children because they support G so once it comes out they are LGBTQ positive, someone is going to deny them service. I am waiting for our grandson's very Baptist pediatrician - an otherwise very talented physician - to deny him medical care or insist that his hair be cut short and his clothes become "boy like" (whatever the eff that means) in order to be treated.

I have wondered what this will eventually mean for the Vanderbilt University Rocket team. Will the women on that team be forced to give up their unisex team designed t-shirts? Will they be required to give up the polos and button downs often worn during presentations since most teams choose a very standard uniform that is neither specifically male or female? I have seen them all at times in black pants, white standard button down collar shirts, and black blazers that look exactly alike, no specific male or female clothing. Very fender neutral. Also very sharp, and businesslike. The women do not wear "feminine" footwear. It isn't practical. What happens to those women when the gender police come for them? People have their heads up their behinds about the far reaching effect of these laws and WHY they exist. 

[City Mouse]

13 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, I don't understand how everyone doesn't FREAK OUT that there can be laws that a medical provider can decline to treat you because of their own beliefs. Like, here comes the EMT, oh, that's a person who isn't living their life in a way I agree with, I guess I'll just let them die from that car accident. How are we all not worried for ourselves!? Do you think you live your life the way every single medical provider is cool with? Because think again.

This!

This law allows medical provides to pick and choose who they treat. What happens when they don’t want to treat obese patients because “ obesity  is a moral failure”, or they don’t treat a person who has been shot because they don’t agree with what that person was doing at the time of the shooting? 
It may not be the intent of the law, but I would hate to be the patient that dies while these issues get worked out in court.

[wendyroo]

54 minutes ago, Farrar said:

For those thinking about the options to be in a place where you can support family, students, etc., the blog I linked above tracks the safety of various states in legal terms.

I feel like the whole northeast is very safe, but of course the cost of living and the weather don't suit everyone. Luckily climate change is making it warmer! Oh, wait, that's not necessarily good. Sigh.

I'll put in a plug for Michigan. We are still a swing state where your vote can matter, but we are turning bluer by the day. The cost of living is much lower than on the coasts, we have a strong state college system, and we are chock full of nature. It does get cold in the winter...but you get used to it, and it makes the spring all the sweeter.

[Dmmetler]

Ironically, what we've been told by legal is that having Uniform non-gendered outfits should be fine...and non-gendered inevitably means "what guys wear". Because apparently it's better to make all the girls wear pants than to allow one trans girl to wear a skirt. Or something like that.

I'm tentatively planning a "music with character" recital for fall where kids can wear costumes if they want. Unless a higher court puts the ban back, in which case Halloween is cancelled. 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

35 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

This!

This law allows medical provides to pick and choose who they treat. What happens when they don’t want to treat obese patients because “ obesity  is a moral failure”, or they don’t treat a person who has been shot because they don’t agree with what that person was doing at the time of the shooting? 
It may not be the intent of the law, but I would hate to be the patient that dies while these issues get worked out in court.

Yeah. I suspect a lot of people like me (white, married in a long standing heterosexual relationship, solidly middle to maybe upper middle class) feel perfectly safe and are mostly unbothered by these laws. I'm not. They scare me. I'm getting older every day (and let's not mention existing health issues) and we saw some politicians during the pandemic suggest that maybe it would be a good thing if grandma and grandpa took one for the team. Some lives matter more than others (according to those pols), and apparently the elderly  . . don't. With the cost of health care, the shortage of medical providers and housing in many areas, the negative attitudes that have been expressed over and over on this very board about caring for elders . . how long before some doctors decide it would be best to stop providing any medical care to anyone over a certain age?

And it could be any group. Maybe some doctors decide anyone who isn't NT shouldn't be treated. Or women who aren't thin and blond. The possibilities are almost endless.

Slippery slopes are dangerous things.

[Farrar]

25 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Slippery slopes are dangerous things.

I'm wary of a lot of slippery slope arguments because I think you can establish a line and most things are a spectrum. But in this case, there shouldn't be any lines. There should be no normalization of not treating a patient for any reason. And yeah, the elderly should be worried, especially with demographic trends. But all these people who are convinced that Christians are under siege should also be worried. If that's actually true (which, I don't buy it, but if you do!) then surely you're next. 

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, I don't understand how everyone doesn't FREAK OUT that there can be laws that a medical provider can decline to treat you because of their own beliefs. Like, here comes the EMT, oh, that's a person who isn't living their life in a way I agree with, I guess I'll just let them die from that car accident. How are we all not worried for ourselves!? Do you think you live your life the way every single medical provider is cool with? Because think again.

Genocide is definitely the goal. Things like outrage over drag queens reading picture books in public are a way to distract people from realizing that genocide is the goal.

You know why, most of us do. Because the people who think it's ok (or just don't care) think that they are exempt. Just like people who are anti choice think that no one they know will ever need an abortion for any reason (and um, when they do that their abortion will be the moral one because reasons), or that banning one drug for something they don't like means it's banned for everything, or believe that certain politicians aren't trying to ban everything from birth control to IVF...they all think their white privileged church going selves will be exempt and only hussies and heathens will get what they deserve.

Fear, hate and overinflated egos fed by religion and the patriarchy. These laws are meant for "them", for "those people", for "others", until you know, one day they aren't and your teenager daughter can no longer get birth control and your son is raped by the youth pastor and has no recourse and your husband is violent but you can't divorce him because they made good on the promise of getting rid of no fault divorce (that you voted for). 
 

That this affects ALL of us ought to be crystal clear by now, but somehow the message isn't getting through. It's going to get much, much worse before it gets better I'm afraid. There are far too many people living with their heads in the sand.

[Grace Hopper]

9 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

We have a non binary in law/ son's life partner, and now we are afraid to have them come to what was supposed to be our retirement home in Alabama because they have to pass through Tennessee, having a car break down, needing the rest area...we feel like there could be serious danger. G wears gender neutral clothing, yet looks fairly feminine, uses they/them pronouns. I feel like they are at serious risk of someone calling the cops, and said cops beating or killing them. TN has become a tinder box of lunacy. It is only a matter of time before politicians give the full okay to declare open hunting season on the LGBTQ community. We have talked about flying, but everything that is straight through is crazy expensive, and the affordable flights route through Nashville or Atlanta. Atlanta might be okay, though I am not sure what the airport security would be like if someone complained about my two gender neutral/they-them loved ones. But Nashville scares the poop out of me.

We have been sickened by all this. If Alabama gets on the Tennessee band wagon, we will have to sell our dream home there. I will bawl all the way to the real estate office. Our daughter and son in law are scared. Our oldest grandson's favorite colors are  pink, magenta, and orange. He loves rainbow decorated things. He is 7. It shouldn't be dangerous for a 7 year old to wear a purple shirt with a rainbow over a field of horses - another favorite thing. But, they feel like if Alabama follows TN, they will have to tell him he can't wear his favorite shirts until daddy can get a job up north, and they can move.

They love Huntsville. Son in law loves his job. And they love living in our house, known as Shangri La. We wanted to have a winter retreat (mid-Oct - April) from Michigan weather and close to really good hospitals, but not Florida. Northern Bama fit that bill. I am heart broken. I keep hoping that Alabama won't go completely off the rails. But I think that hope is probably going to die.

 

The gulf south states have gone nuts and have left us in a complete dilemma about our made long ago retirement plans. It’s insane.

[QueenCat]

7 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

 Also, I don't know why Florida gets most of the negative publicity about this kind of thing when sadly it's happening in a number of states.

 

Probably because you have a governor who is running for President. And has been a front-runner for a while. 

[ktgrok]

Yup. I'm really tired of thinking, "well, at least X will never happen" and then X happens. REALLY tired of it. 

And with a kid who is non hetero this is now hitting very close to home. Thankfully we have a safe church, and Orlando has a large LGBTQ presence, including a Gay Officers organization made up of LGBTQ police and sherrif's deputies. But...still. 

I'm VERY glad we homeschool, but even there we are constantly at odds with a lot of people. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, QueenCat said:

Probably because you have a governor who is running for President. And has been a front-runner for a while. 

Yes, and I think for this reason, Florida makes the most noise when they pass these things. The thought that he wants to be President and could seek to enact these kind of laws across the whole country is very scary. 

[Ditto]

8 hours ago, MEmama said:

You know why, most of us do. Because the people who think it's ok (or just don't care) think that they are exempt. Just like people who are anti choice think that no one they know will ever need an abortion for any reason (and um, when they do that their abortion will be the moral one because reasons), or that banning one drug for something they don't like means it's banned for everything, or believe that certain politicians aren't trying to ban everything from birth control to IVF...they all think their white privileged church going selves will be exempt and only hussies and heathens will get what they deserve.

Fear, hate and overinflated egos fed by religion and the patriarchy. These laws are meant for "them", for "those people", for "others", until you know, one day they aren't and your teenager daughter can no longer get birth control and your son is raped by the youth pastor and has no recourse and your husband is violent but you can't divorce him because they made good on the promise of getting rid of no fault divorce (that you voted for). 
 

That this affects ALL of us ought to be crystal clear by now, but somehow the message isn't getting through. It's going to get much, much worse before it gets better I'm afraid. There are far too many people living with their heads in the sand.

Yes to every single word.  You are exactly right.

[BronzeTurtle]

This thread is like the mirror image of a thread on a more conservative-leaning hobby forum that I'm on where parents are freaking out and planning on moving out of California because they think the state is going to take their kids if they follow a watch and wait approach instead of social transition and blockers.

Everyone in both places (online) is catastrophizing and using such inflammatory language about how everyone wants everyone dead or in jail or without custody of their kids or no parental permission for medical transitioning or social transitioning in schools or whatever. It SEEMS LIKE most people in real life just want to be able to live their lives without being confronted or controlled.

But it's almost like there's some central force...for lack of a better term... or whatever riling everyone up thinking they are literally going to die or lose their kids.

ETA: and twitter and FB threads are like 1000% worse than any forum with people feeling personally threatened or threatened for their kids.

Edited June 18, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[KSera]

42 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Everyone in both places (online) is catastrophizing and using such inflammatory language about how everyone wants everyone dead or in jail or without custody of their kids or no parental permission for medical transitioning or social transitioning in schools or whatever. It SEEMS LIKE most people in real life just want to be able to live their lives without being confronted or controlled.

 

People need to start voting in line with the bolded in order for it to happen. I agree none of this is stuff that should be politicized and legislated. If politics would stay out of it, doctors could provide evidence based guidance for each patient according to their circumstances, as it should be. 

[Ottakee]

11 hours ago, City Mouse said:

This!

This law allows medical provides to pick and choose who they treat. What happens when they don’t want to treat obese patients because “ obesity  is a moral failure”, or they don’t treat a person who has been shot because they don’t agree with what that person was doing at the time of the shooting? 
It may not be the intent of the law, but I would hate to be the patient that dies while these issues get worked out in court.

Well, in West Michigan one county has been battling because the new county commissioners (majority far far right) don’t want to renew the contract with the local Medicaid/low income dental office because the dental office has a non discrimination policy that they don’t like.

Dental care should be equal access no matter your sexual orientation, race, religion, special needs, etc.   

Another school board in this same county wanted to join a new school board association that had on their front page ideas that special Ed students took up too much time and should not be mainstreamed at all (not even students with LD) and that English language learners were a burden as well.

Here is the link to the school board vision

Edited June 18, 2023 by Ottakee

[Farrar]

12 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

This thread is like the mirror image of a thread on a more conservative-leaning hobby forum that I'm on where parents are freaking out and planning on moving out of California because they think the state is going to take their kids if they follow a watch and wait approach instead of social transition and blockers.

Everyone in both places (online) is catastrophizing and using such inflammatory language about how everyone wants everyone dead or in jail or without custody of their kids or no parental permission for medical transitioning or social transitioning in schools or whatever. It SEEMS LIKE most people in real life just want to be able to live their lives without being confronted or controlled.

But it's almost like there's some central force...for lack of a better term... or whatever riling everyone up thinking they are literally going to die or lose their kids.

ETA: and twitter and FB threads are like 1000% worse than any forum with people feeling personally threatened or threatened for their kids.

Two things. One, I think you're right that there are a lot of forces riling people up on both ends and that it's scary. And that social media is a part of it.

But two, I am aware of multiple laws right now in states like Texas and Florida that could result in trans kids being taken from loving parents. Real families in Texas have been investigated by the state. This has been well documented in reliable media outlets. It's also in the law that the state has an obligation to investigate all reports of parents giving trans kids gender affirming care. I am aware of zero laws in California that would take a kid from their parents for refusing to provide blockers or allow a child to dress a certain way or asking people to call them a certain name (which is most of what social transition means). California does ban gay/gender conversion therapy for minors, so if they were to seek out that pseudoscientific practice that could lead to having their kids taken away. How the parents approach not wanting their kids to socially transition is potentially going to be at issue. Families do not have kids taken away for strict rules. But if a family is physically punishing a minor for dressing in a way they don't like, if that physical punishment becomes abuse that can become grounds to remove a child, depending on its severity. So if a family is punishing a cis girl for wearing mini-skirts and it turns into beating her or locking her in her room for long periods or denying her food, then that can become grounds to take a child. But also, the exact same thing would be true for a trans girl. So the actual abuse is what is illegal. Some trans kids will risk abuse to socially transition with friends or in other safe spaces. But then it's the parents choice about how to handle that. Can they manage to put a stop to it in a way that doesn't become abusive? We all know how hard it is to stop a teen from doing something they are set on doing. So maybe there are non-abusive ways to prevent that minor child from putting on makeup or clothing items or telling their friends to call them by a new name or telling their teachers to. 

Additionally, California has passed laws to protect trans parents who are internal refugees. These laws are specifically to prevent families and children who have left states like those we're talking about from being extradited to face charges for providing gender affirming care in states where it's illegal to do so for minors. They have no impact on families already living in California.

[maize]

12 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

But it's almost like there's some central force...for lack of a better term... or whatever riling everyone up thinking they are literally going to die or lose their kids.

 

We've had plenty of evidence over the past decade of actors representing foreign interests manipulating online rhetoric to further polarize and divide factions in the US and elsewhere. 2016 election, brexit, covid...bots and misinformation everywhere.

We aren't entirely doing this to ourselves.

Edited June 18, 2023 by maize

[ktgrok]

I do think that the click bait headlines culture where no one reads the actual article or reads sensationalized news without checking facts, and where "I heard it on the internet" is considered a reliable way to source information makes all of this worse. I heard people saying on twitter that it wasn't safe for a church youth group that had a few gay kids in it to go to their church sponsored conference in Tampa, Florida because the kids would likely be beaten or shot by cops or kidnapped by the state. And that just isn't true. Teens traveling in a church group with adult chaperones to Tampa are not going to be accosted at the local convenience store and locked up in a gulag somewhere. Not yet, anyway. 

Now, would I suggest those two gay kids make out in front of a rural gas station or rest area while good ol' boys are walking by? No. And that sucks that it is an issue. But it isn't quite the level of chaos being presented. 

Honestly, I'm pretty sure both sides have bots and such throwing out straw men so that they can be knocked down, or whatever that analogy is. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

California does ban gay/gender conversion therapy for minors, so if they were to seek out that pseudoscientific practice that could lead to having their kids taken away.

A problem that needs to be fixed is that many/most therapists with those laws won’t provide any kind of gender exploratory therapy for fear of being accused of gender conversion therapy and losing their license. This really presents a serious problem, because kids wrestling with gender dysphoria do so for all kinds of reasons, and it does a disservice for transition to be the only solution they are allowed to be presented with. I’ve shared before that my kid could not get any proper therapy in that stage and was very frustrated about that. To equate therapy for people with gender dysphoria with conversion therapy for gay people is a total misnomer and does a disservice to people with gender dysphoria.

[Dmmetler]

50 minutes ago, KSera said:

A problem that needs to be fixed is that many/most therapists with those laws won’t provide any kind of gender exploratory therapy for fear of being accused of gender conversion therapy and losing their license. This really presents a serious problem, because kids wrestling with gender dysphoria do so for all kinds of reasons, and it does a disservice for transition to be the only solution they are allowed to be presented with. I’ve shared before that my kid could not get any proper therapy in that stage and was very frustrated about that. To equate therapy for people with gender dysphoria with conversion therapy for gay people is a total misnomer and does a disservice to people with gender dysphoria.

But the bans in states like mine have gone so far that doctors are unwilling to prescribe meds to a teen to stop periods because said teen identifies as trans and they don't want to provide illegal gender affirming care. That's a pretty major disservice, too.  (so far, that's been a pediatrician and a GYN). 

 

 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

But the bans in states like mine have gone so far that doctors are unwilling to prescribe meds to a teen to stop periods because said teen identifies as trans and they don't want to provide illegal gender affirming care. That's a pretty major disservice, too.  (so far, that's been a pediatrician and a GYN). 

 

Absolutely. That's totally wrong as well. This is why none of this should be legislated. It's not serving any kids well to make this something decided by politicians rather than doctors. And doctors aren't able to do what's best for each patient due to the political environment. Sometimes that's in one direction, sometimes it's the other.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

A problem that needs to be fixed is that many/most therapists with those laws won’t provide any kind of gender exploratory therapy for fear of being accused of gender conversion therapy and losing their license. This really presents a serious problem, because kids wrestling with gender dysphoria do so for all kinds of reasons, and it does a disservice for transition to be the only solution they are allowed to be presented with. I’ve shared before that my kid could not get any proper therapy in that stage and was very frustrated about that. To equate therapy for people with gender dysphoria with conversion therapy for gay people is a total misnomer and does a disservice to people with gender dysphoria.

I have known a number of kids who have gone through a number of identifications while in therapy and have eventually landed on identifying as cis or nb. And I live in one of those states. Conversion therapy is abuse. It is not exploration of identity. Show me one real news source where it actually happened that a therapist couldn’t discuss a variety of possible outcomes with a patient for fear of getting arrested for practicing conversion therapy because I don’t buy it.

ETA: I have a better understanding of where KSera is coming from. Editing to add that I think we're talking somewhat, if not entirely at cross purposes. Laws like those in CA don't fix mental health support for trans folk by any means. I'm for a ban on conversion therapy for minors because it's abuse and there's zero reason for any practitioner to be using it. But also, just having a law doesn't mean good therapy is in place or that practitioners have a variety of tools at their disposal, which I understand is the broader point here and I do agree with that at least.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Farrar

[Farrar]

[content removed, see note below]

Edited June 18, 2023 by Farrar

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

But the bans in states like mine have gone so far that doctors are unwilling to prescribe meds to a teen to stop periods because said teen identifies as trans and they don't want to provide illegal gender affirming care. That's a pretty major disservice, too.  (so far, that's been a pediatrician and a GYN). 

 

 

Further, I think if we care about kids (and people in general) we have to be able to say AND ALSO in these conversations, rather than YEAH, BUT. We need to be able to say, people who are looking for mental health care need to be able to get therapy and also, people need to be able to get medical treatment decided by their doctors. Otherwise, people are only caring about certain kids and not others.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I have known a number of kids who have gone through a number of identifications while in therapy and have eventually landed on identifying as cis or nb. And I live in one of those states. Conversion therapy is abuse. It is not exploration of identity. Show me one real news source where it actually happened that a therapist couldn’t discuss a variety of possible outcomes with a patient for fear of getting arrested for practicing conversion therapy because I don’t buy it.

 

Just now, Farrar said:

Also, I can’t believe people in this thread want to stealth defend conversion therapy. That gets people killed. It’s cult stuff. Just stop.

I'm going to have to take a pause because you are being extremely dismissive of deadly serious personal experiences and it's very upsetting. I told you this happened to my own trans kid. With serious results.  I care about ALL trans kids. I will come back when my head doesn't feel like it's going to explode.

[Dmmetler]

10 minutes ago, KSera said:

Further, I think if we care about kids (and people in general) we have to be able to say AND ALSO in these conversations, rather than YEAH, BUT. We need to be able to say, people who are looking for mental health care need to be able to get therapy and also, people need to be able to get medical treatment decided by their doctors. Otherwise, people are only caring about certain kids and not others.

And I'm not saying they aren't. But I also know that the ONE pediatric gender clinic in my state, until the ban, required that the kid had therapy and persistent dysphoria to even get an appointment. I hope that therapists are looking at other possibilities for dysphoria, such as RSD and PMDD, but honestly, every kid I'vs known IRL who got far enough into the process to be referred to a gender clinic and got off the waiting list had been persistent for several years with major social pressures NOT to be trans, and often therapy ended up just trying to hold them together emotionally. 

 

You've seen your kid be unable to get good therapy. I've seen a kid be unable to get medical care when they're non-functional a good part of the time because they are trans due to state laws. Both are bad situations. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Dmmetler

[maize]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Also, I can’t believe people in this thread want to stealth defend conversion therapy. That gets people killed. It’s cult stuff. Just stop.

Who is defending conversion therapy? 

[Farrar]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who cares about trans kids can defend making conversion therapy legal. Conversion therapy has a predetermined outcome of finding that a person must be straight and cis gender, particularly through brainwashing techniques. No other form of legitimate therapy can be reasonably confused for conversion therapy. Lots of kids who experience dysphoria are not trans. Unless someone can show me a reliable news source for the idea that banning conversion therapy hurts trans kids, I'm not going to buy it.

[Farrar]

3 hours ago, maize said:

Who is defending conversion therapy? 

[content removed]

I stand by my perspective, but I misjudged where KSera was coming from so I'm removing what I said here.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Farrar

[KSera]

11 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

And I'm not saying they aren't. But I also know that the ONE pediatric gender clinic in my state, until the ban, required that the kid had therapy and persistent dysphoria to even get an appointment. I hope that therapists are looking at other possibilities for dysphoria, such as RSD and PMDD. 

 

You've seen your kid be unable to get good therapy. I've seen a kid be unable to get medical care when they're non-functional a good part of the time because they are trans due to state laws. Both are bad situations. 

Right, that's what I'm saying is they are both bad situations. In conservative areas people experience one side of the problem and in more liberal areas, they sometimes experience the other.

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

I find it hard to believe that anyone who cares about trans kids can defend making conversion therapy legal. Conversion therapy has a predetermined outcome of finding that a person must be straight and cis gender, particularly through brainwashing techniques. No other form of legitimate therapy can be reasonably confused for conversion therapy. Lots of kids who experience dysphoria are not trans. Unless someone can show me a reliable news source for the idea that banning conversion therapy hurts trans kids, I'm not going to buy it.

You keep calling it conversion therapy. I'm not talking about conversion therapy. I'm talking about therapy for kids (or adults) with gender dysphoria. If you aren't aware of lots of trans people who have had trouble getting therapy but no trouble getting hormones and surgery, you likely live in a more conservative area than I do. I realize it's the reverse in conservative areas. I'm guessing your haven't read a lot of the deep dive coverage on this that has been quite well done as of late by Reuters and a couple other main stream outlets. You could do some research and find it. I think a lot of people might be surprised at some of what they find if they start reading deeper on this and caring about ALL people experiencing this issue. From time to time I have posted some links from well balanced coverage or research when it comes out in peer reviewed medical journals, but I find it pretty much never gets read.

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

I DID NOT SAY THIS. Conversion therapy is something done to people who are gay. Therapies of certain kinds should be banned by professional licensing boards though, because otherwise we end up where we are where politicians are going back and forth tit for tat banning various medical things they have no business or knowledge of.

Edited June 19, 2023 by KSera