Loneliness epidemic

[Laura Corin]

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

There is a societal bias towards extroversion; it sort of makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Shy people would not have as many mating opportunities and would be less assertive about securing food and shelter, not to mention cooperative work makes it easier for all to meet their basic needs. (Like, five people hunting are more likely to secure game than one alone.) 

From what I have read, the bias is more pronounced in the US.  I've often wondered whether - in situations where people had a choice whether they moved to the US - it was the extroverts who did so. The introverts stayed home and said to each other, 'Mustn't grumble.'

Eta personality type and migration https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170413-different-nationalities-really-have-different-personalities

Edited May 10, 2023 by Laura Corin

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

From what I have read, the bias is more pronounced in the US.  I've often wondered whether - in situations where people had a choice whether they moved to the US - it was the extroverts who did so. The introverts stayed home and said to each other, 'Mustn't grumble.'

Eta personality type and migration https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170413-different-nationalities-really-have-different-personalities

That’s brilliant! It does make some sense…

[marbel]

I am shy and I got those comments too. I hated it and they just made me more quiet. When I started working, though, I had to become less shy, and I did, at first by force, but then I just started naturally to be less-shy.  At one point, a  manager arranged to send me to Dale Carnegie training, which is part public speaking and part just meeting and interacting with people. That changed my life, literally. I became much more able to put myself out there with people. But it didn't make me an extrovert! I still revel in time alone. I am not anti-social - I do like being around people, I just can't be around them all the time. And, I am still shy in an unfamiliar environment. 

My husband is an introvert but he is not shy. He can talk to anyone and engages people in conversation often. But, he also needs to be alone or at least be quiet more than most people who are considered extroverts. He and I spend a lot of time together/separately reading our books. When we go walking, we are often quiet, both in our own thoughts. 

My sister is what I consider to be an extreme extrovert. She has to be around people and be the center of attention. She suffered greatly during covid lockdowns because she needs constant input from people. And she is one of those extroverts who doesn't understand introverts.

I don't think introverts are less likely to meet people and marry/have kids. Some may need to be coaxed along a bit more than others. I am thinking of an old friend, who was always very quiet and would excuse himself early from gatherings to go home and be alone. But he was nice to be around and he and I were sometimes default date for each other - like, at a company Christmas party where people were expected to bring a spouse/date/plus one. He was a good guy, a real "catch" if you will, and at one point a woman decided he was for her. She pursued him, and they have been happily married for more than 30 years. By all accounts he is still quiet. 

And of course there is a wide range of introversion/extroversion with some people being more in the middle of the two, etc. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by marbel

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Wow, you guys are lucky!

What's your secret?!

 

 

You mean secret for never/rarely feeling lonely? I think for my flavor of introversion it comes down to needing a deep connection/conversations with only a very small number of people, and I've always had that. First it was my parents, then three close school friends (who are still my BFFs now, although we often go weeks and even months w/o seeing or texting each other), then I had DH and the boys (once they got old enough/mature enough to connect with in a deep way). The time I remember feeling lonely was when I was living on my own, not seeing my parents every day, and my friends were all in new relationships or dealing with new parenthood and so had less time for  anything else. I had good relationships with several of my co-workers and sometimes even socialized with some of them in the evenings or on weekends. But it wasn't the type of deep connection I needed. I'd rather have one person I can truly connect with than dozens of more superficial relationships, and I've always been fortunate enough to have at least one such person in my life.

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I tend to believe that many of the world’s early explorers were likely introverted. They had to have been comfortable being away from people and being alone or mostly alone for vast amounts of time. 

I think many artistically creative people are also introverts.

It would be interesting to see the split, both now and historically, across various professions and vocations all over the world. 

[ScoutTN]

12 hours ago, Clarita said:

In my neighborhood occasionally there are these block party things, even the police and fire trucks show up like they do for community helpers day in school. I don't know what you have to do to host one, but they invite the surrounding immediate neighborhood. 

We had these every Memorial Day snd Labor Day weekend when I was a little kid.

[ScoutTN]

I am extroverted, but a couple long periods of my life without close friends nearby have created in me a deep enjoyment of and need for time alone. So maybe more towards the center of the spectrum now than many years ago? 
 

I too need just a few deep, close relationships to be happy. I thrive with more people time, but it can be more superficial. 
 

At almost 60, I have what I need, but I wonder what it will be like 25 years from now. (If I am still here on this earth.) I see my 86 yo mom without most of her close friends and relatives and I think she is deeply lonely despite living in a community and seeing me and my family every week. The lack of ability to use technology is very isolating. 

[Faith-manor]

28 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

I am extroverted, but a couple long periods of my life without close friends nearby have created in me a deep enjoyment of and need for time alone. So maybe more towards the center of the spectrum now than many years ago? 
 

I too need just a few deep, close relationships to be happy. I thrive with more people time, but it can be more superficial. 
 

At almost 60, I have what I need, but I wonder what it will be like 25 years from now. (If I am still here on this earth.) I see my 86 yo mom without most of her close friends and relatives and I think she is deeply lonely despite living in a community and seeing me and my family every week. The lack of ability to use technology is very isolating. 

Very true. One of the things we have done for my mom is teach her how to not only text, but use Facebook messenger on a kindle. Now she chats regularly with my sister in France, and some of her relatives out of state. This has helped. It is hard. She and my mother in law were part of a widows support group/Sunday school class. They began that group 10 years ago with 20 ladies. So many have died. Now they are down to themselves, and only two other women. Just four. And of the 16 who have passed, nearly all of them have been in the last four years so it has been a blitz of funerals, or worse, no funerals during the first year of the pandemic which further isolated them.

She is going to resume her volunteer reading tutor position at the library this fall, and I think that is going to be a big help.

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm introverted and I believe most people who know me IRL would say I'm the most mentally stable person they know. I'm not shy, and I don't have social anxiety (although it's possible I was both of those as a younger person). If asked why I'm so quiet I'm not a bit hesitant to say "Just listening" or "How am I supposed to get a word in when you (or you all) are talking so much?" And I'll say that deadpan or with a wink, depending. I agree that it shouldn't be an issue.

And I'm sitting here cringing that (once again) introversion is being likened to mental illness or social anxiety. Sigh. I thought we'd left those tropes behind years ago. Yes, a person who is an introvert can be shy or struggle with mental health. A person who is extroverted can be shy and struggle with mental health. None of these are the same things, although of course there can be overlap in any individual. (ETA: Yes, I understand that what @Quill said isn't implying that introverted people are mentally ill, but it seems dangerously close to that to me.)

Agree. An interesting book about introverts:

https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153/ref=asc_df_0307352153?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=79989588515106&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583589115107006&psc=1

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Wow, you guys are lucky!

What's your secret?!

Well for one thing, I rarely get "enough" alone time for my personality type.  Born a middle child in a working-class family of 8, having to share everything (including my bed until I was 13), being in charge of the younger siblings in my "free time," moving from the family house to a dorm to a shared home (to keep expenses reasonable), working multiple jobs + being active in nonprofits, sharing my home with various exchange students etc., and finally adopting kids and accompanying them through much of their social lives ... and also having a reasonable number of friends and good family relationships ... I have always craved "alone time."  Especially "alone down time."  Because being alone in my room cranking out work projects is not the same.  😛

My first post on this thread, though, reflects my concern that things may be very different as I age.  I don't really know how I will feel if I actually have to go for weeks without seeing people who are important to me.

I don't really have a frame of reference for that.  So far, my parents are both still alive and together.  Their company with each other is really important, even though they spend most of their days in separate rooms.  Even my grandma, who was a widow for decades, had frequent visits from her youngest daughter (when she wasn't living in the same house).  She had part-time retail jobs well past Social Security age, she had social activities (pinochle club, church, etc.), she liked to go shopping, and periodically she'd go and stay with each of her other kids for a short visit (which seemed enough for her).  I can't really think of any close person who was completely alone to the point of dealing with apparent loneliness.

[fairfarmhand]

i also wonder about the cultural factors of our fiercely independent culture. I watched my MIL fight to stay in her own home, even though she was suffering from anxiety and depression and was dreadfully, horribly lonely. She had a lovely apartment built for her in her son's house but refused to use it long term. I think for her it was a point of pride to live  on her own and she felt like she "ought" to be able to live solo. To do otherwise was a failure. 

I think in particular for older folks, coming to terms with their own loneliness and solving for that is challenging. Maybe thinking outside the box a bit would help?

There are several widows at out church who sold their family homes a few years after their dh's died and they all live in the same condo complex, which is just a few miles from their kids. Adult kids and grandkids are close by and check often, but they have the day to day companionship of their elderly ladies. And these gals are fantastic for one another. Honestly, the adult kids complain that the older ladies know more of what is happening in their mom's lives than the kids do. But they don't have to do yard maintenance or worry about safety as much as they would if they;d stayed in their own homes with large yards and distant neighbors. I really admire the forethought and courage they have displayed to close the chapter of the big family home that their kids grew up in and find a solution for their living situation that is more practical.  Managing the cleaning and maintenance of a 2 br condo is much easier. I wonder if these ladies will live longer because of their directness in addressing the difficulties that widowhood brings?

I mean you don't have to wait until you need assisted living to make a change? KWIM? 

So maybe we as a culture need to examine the ugly downsides of our fierce independence. Maybe our young adults need to live in the basement or a pod out back for a few years and that's not a failure if they are contributing to the household. Maybe buying a duplex for elderly people to live side by side with a loved one? 

Edited May 10, 2023 by fairfarmhand

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have said that I am a extroverted introvert but what is more accurate is saying that I am an introvert with strong social skills. Those social skills are hard won. I learned them over years of having to learn the social rules of very different cultures, neither of which totally fit me as a third culture kid. I also learned them by forcing myself to get in front of people despite very strong stage fright which included speaking up in a group (not just getting on a stage). I learned “scripts” for common social interactions like phone calls and small talk and business interactions. Part of this was the cultural thing but part of it was that a script helped me to overcome my social anxiety.

 I happily spend hours alone every day. I hike alone for hours with just Juliet (my dog) as my companion. But I also find deep friendships to be important to me. I work on them and cultivate them. And I seek out new connections despite the process being uncomfortable for me because I believe in the importance of reaching out to others and also because some of those new connections might grow into deeper ones. You never know. 
 

I worked very hard to get my kids (one on the spectrum and one with extreme anxiety) to a point of being socially competent because I think that it’s an important life skill. 

[SKL]

This thread reminded me of a poem I wrote when I was a young teen.  About "being alone" which is neither "being by yourself" nor "being lonely/forlorn."  You could tell by reading it that I felt "being alone" was one step down from Heaven, LOL.

[Frances]

32 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

i also wonder about the cultural factors of our fiercely independent culture. I watched my MIL fight to stay in her own home, even though she was suffering from anxiety and depression and was dreadfully, horribly lonely. She had a lovely apartment built for her in her son's house but refused to use it long term. I think for her it was a point of pride to live  on her own and she felt like she "ought" to be able to live solo. To do otherwise was a failure. 

I think in particular for older folks, coming to terms with their own loneliness and solving for that is challenging. Maybe thinking outside the box a bit would help?

There are several widows at out church who sold their family homes a few years after their dh's died and they all live in the same condo complex, which is just a few miles from their kids. Adult kids and grandkids are close by and check often, but they have the day to day companionship of their elderly ladies. And these gals are fantastic for one another. Honestly, the adult kids complain that the older ladies know more of what is happening in their mom's lives than the kids do. But they don't have to do yard maintenance or worry about safety as much as they would if they;d stayed in their own homes with large yards and distant neighbors. I really admire the forethought and courage they have displayed to close the chapter of the big family home that their kids grew up in and find a solution for their living situation that is more practical.  Managing the cleaning and maintenance of a 2 br condo is much easier. I wonder if these ladies will live longer because of their directness in addressing the difficulties that widowhood brings?

I mean you don't have to wait until you need assisted living to make a change? KWIM? 

So maybe we as a culture need to examine the ugly downsides of our fierce independence. Maybe our young adults need to live in the basement or a pod out back for a few years and that's not a failure if they are contributing to the household. Maybe buying a duplex for elderly people to live side by side with a loved one? 

Right before the pandemic, my mom sold the family home of 50+ years and moved into an independent apartment in an aging in place senior complex. The community and connections are wonderful and the residents vary widely in income and education and a wide range of apartment sizes are available. While she has always been very socially connected with numerous close friends, this place allowed her to make a whole new set of friendships while still maintaining old ones. She did have to move to a new city in a nearby state, as her very small hometown doesn’t have such places, but it’s close enough for lots of visits.

If I could convince my husband, I would love to live in such a place someday after seeing and hearing about my mom’s. The luxury of just paying one all inclusive fee and not having to worry about house or yard maintenance in retirement is also very appealing.

[Frances]

26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I have said that I am a extroverted introvert but what is more accurate is saying that I am an introvert with strong social skills. Those social skills are hard won. I learned them over years of having to learn the social rules of very different cultures, neither of which totally fit me as a third culture kid. I also learned them by forcing myself to get in front of people despite very strong stage fright which included speaking up in a group (not just getting on a stage). I learned “scripts” for common social interactions like phone calls and small talk and business interactions. Part of this was the cultural thing but part of it was that a script helped me to overcome my social anxiety.

 I happily spend hours alone every day. I hike alone for hours with just Juliet (my dog) as my companion. But I also find deep friendships to be important to me. I work on them and cultivate them. And I seek out new connections despite the process being uncomfortable for me because I believe in the importance of reaching out to others and also because some of those new connections might grow into deeper ones. You never know. 
 

I worked very hard to get my kids (one on the spectrum and one with extreme anxiety) to a point of being socially competent because I think that it’s an important life skill. 

I’m very similar, but it has definitely been a process. But I’m in a very good place currently. I also strongly agree about helping children be socially competent.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is an unabashedly Christian perspective so read at your own risk. 
 

I personally find this CS Lewis quote to be true , “The truth is that we will never find contentment or happiness in things, people or circumstances. We have a God-sized hole inside our hearts that only He can fill.” (I cut and pasted this from a google search, thus the weird fonts and bolding). 
 

I have deep friendships and a good marriage but there is a “lonely spot “ in my soul that only God has been able to fill. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

i also wonder about the cultural factors of our fiercely independent culture. I watched my MIL fight to stay in her own home, even though she was suffering from anxiety and depression and was dreadfully, horribly lonely. She had a lovely apartment built for her in her son's house but refused to use it long term. I think for her it was a point of pride to live  on her own and she felt like she "ought" to be able to live solo. To do otherwise was a failure. 

That certainly contributes - but my grandmother had a similar situation, and the independence-at-all-cost is not as pronounced in my home country. She had even taken in her own mother and lived with her for several years. However, when great-grandma died, grandma refused to leave the house into which she had moved as a bride at age twenty.  We could not persuade her to move into our city to be close to her only son's family. She worked out of her home as a pedicurist until she was in her mid-eighties and was always hungry for connection; however, most of her close friends were older and died before her. During the last years of her life, she was desperately lonely - and family two hours away can only do so much. But I think for her it was the memory of her youth and her first, short marriage to my grandfather that made her incapable of moving.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

28 minutes ago, Frances said:

Right before the pandemic, my mom sold the family home of 50+ years and moved into an independent apartment in an aging in place senior complex. The community and connections are wonderful and the residents vary widely in income and education and a wide range of apartment sizes are available.

That sounds appealing - for an extroverted person. My very introverted mother would never consider this, and neither would my husband - the idea would feel torture to him.

[Faith-manor]

14 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Me too. They’re not awful neighbors. 

Agreed. We have cows, horses, and sheep in the surrounding area, and frankly, they are way better neighbors than the people in this itty bitty, "one horse town". The Alabama house has neighbors, all of whom are spread out on horse or cow farms. Very nice, very tranquil. Horseys, in my opinion, are some of the best neighbors in the whole world!

[Laura Corin]

25 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Out of curiosity, do strange men in Europe tell women on the street to smile? I've heard that Americans smile more than Europeans so maybe that's a weird American thing? 

 

I've had it happen to me once in my life, and I am blessed with bitchy resting face, so that's not a bad average. I shot back that I was looking for my child and he looked somewhat chastened.  Child was almost adult, but he wasn't to know that.

[regentrude]

29 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Out of curiosity, do strange men in Europe tell women on the street to smile? I've heard that Americans smile more than Europeans so maybe that's a weird American thing? 

Never happened to me in the 30 years I lived in Germany, and I don't recall this happening to a friend either. Otoh, it also never happened to me in the 25 years I lived in the US.

[YaelAldrich]

7 hours ago, pinball said:

Google “My Municipality block party permit” 

With the permit, you might have be asked if your neighbors know and are involved, you might have to pay a fee, there is usually a length of time you need to apply ahead of time bc barricades need to be delivered and that needs to be coordinated with roads crews, and some applications allow you to a ask for open container law to be waived (if applicable in your location).

In some cities and towns,  they will PAY for the party.  Boston,  San Francisco,  and I'm sure other places (I know these because my husband works with these governments). Look up neighborhood grants, block party grants, community building initiatives and your area. 

[marbel]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

That sounds appealing - for an extroverted person. My very introverted mother would never consider this, and neither would my husband - the idea would feel torture to him.

Well, people can also choose how much time they want to spend with others (assuming they have cooking facilities in their room/apartment).

My mother was a very shy introvert but she was also extremely practical. When she reached the point she could no longer live alone, we found a nice senior apartment. They had activities, a dining room with 3 meals, but the apartments also had small kitchens. (I remember the stove burner was on a timer so the resident couldn't forget to turn it off.)

She chose what activities she wanted to participate in, and what communal meals she wanted to attend. There was no pressure to do anything. Some days she stayed in her place doing the crossword puzzle and listening to the baseball game, cooking herself a simple dinner. Other days, she went to lunch, got on the bus for the shopping trip, or joined the exercise class. She also helped maintain the little library (she loved buying books at thrift stores). She met some nice people who probably never became close friends but she enjoyed talking to them. 

Was she super happy there? Probably not. But her practicality helped. She knew she could not maintain her longtime home - in fact she had sold it to me several years before. She didn't want to live with any of her 3 children. She could no longer drive so a place with transportation to doctors, shopping, outings was good. So, she lived there. 

I hope that as my husband and I age, or if I become a widow, we/I will graciously accept appropriate living arrangements as needed and not demand to remain in an unsuitable home. 

[Guest]

I don’t think I’ve ever been commanded to smile by random men. Maybe when I was in my twenties, if they wanted an excuse to make conversation with me. I do remember when I met dh, he said, “You have a really pretty smile.” Which made me smile, so kind of a win-win, lol. 

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

Well for one thing, I rarely get "enough" alone time for my personality type.  Born a middle child in a working-class family of 8, having to share everything (including my bed until I was 13), being in charge of the younger siblings in my "free time," moving from the family house to a dorm to a shared home (to keep expenses reasonable), working multiple jobs + being active in nonprofits, sharing my home with various exchange students etc., and finally adopting kids and accompanying them through much of their social lives ... and also having a reasonable number of friends and good family relationships ... I have always craved "alone time."  Especially "alone down time."  Because being alone in my room cranking out work projects is not the same.  😛

My first post on this thread, though, reflects my concern that things may be very different as I age.  I don't really know how I will feel if I actually have to go for weeks without seeing people who are important to me.

I don't really have a frame of reference for that.  So far, my parents are both still alive and together.  Their company with each other is really important, even though they spend most of their days in separate rooms.  Even my grandma, who was a widow for decades, had frequent visits from her youngest daughter (when she wasn't living in the same house).  She had part-time retail jobs well past Social Security age, she had social activities (pinochle club, church, etc.), she liked to go shopping, and periodically she'd go and stay with each of her other kids for a short visit (which seemed enough for her).  I can't really think of any close person who was completely alone to the point of dealing with apparent loneliness.

I was rarely lonely when my kids were at home.

Family is my ideal company - people you know and love and are comfortable with.

 

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah I too was wondering about the introvert / extrovert thing in relation to the loneliness discussion, but I was wondering if being an introvert might make one less likely to be lonely.  We introverts don't gain energy from interacting with others the way extroverts do.  Speaking for myself, I rarely "miss" in-person interactions.  In fact, I crave time to myself ... bonus if I'm not too busy to notice that I'm alone.  😛

I'm trying to remember if I've ever felt lonely.  Out-of-place, yes, but lonely, I really can't remember.

I don't think so.  I'm an introvert who craves connection.  It is the lack of connection that makes me feel lonely, not the amount of time or number of people.  I find large shindigs overwhelming and need my recharge time.  But I can enjoy the gathering if it involves connecting with people who gave a $#!t that I was there.  I can be content at home if I feel wanted and valued in my life.  I can feel extremely lonely in a group of people if my presence there doesn't matter to anyone.  

8 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

You mean secret for never/rarely feeling lonely? I think for my flavor of introversion it comes down to needing a deep connection/conversations with only a very small number of people, and I've always had that. 

I feel the same, but I am envious that you've always had that.  I was a shy kid from birth on.  When I had a deeper connection - like a teacher, a parent, or a friend.  My parents said I would bloom like a flower when I had that.  But then I was bullied for years.  I tried to find that connection in high school and learned to masquerade as an extrovert in order to fit in.  Same in college.  It wasn't until I found a lovely homeschooling community that I fit in.  It didn't matter what my religion was, what my homeschooling philosophy was.  I mattered.  I was able to develop some close friends.  Unfortunately, those friendships didn't survive the end of our mutual connection (homeschooling) coinciding with K's illness.  

4 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

 

There are several widows at out church who sold their family homes a few years after their dh's died and they all live in the same condo complex, which is just a few miles from their kids. Adult kids and grandkids are close by and check often, but they have the day to day companionship of their elderly ladies. And these gals are fantastic for one another. Honestly, the adult kids complain that the older ladies know more of what is happening in their mom's lives than the kids do.

This is similar to my parents' experience.  When my dad was diagnosed with a terminal illness, it was a high priority to him that they find a place where my mom wouldn't have to worry about house/yard upkeep.  Although they didn't know many people when they moved in, they became friends with many people.  After my dad died, my mom had a close group of friends ... they all had each other's keys and would check in on anyone they hadn't heard from.  It was really reassuring to know that other people had her back when I couldn't be there all the time.  If I couldn't get a hold of my mom, I could call one of her friends.  

 

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

This is an unabashedly Christian perspective so read at your own risk. 
 

I personally find this CS Lewis quote to be true , “The truth is that we will never find contentment or happiness in things, people or circumstances. We have a God-sized hole inside our hearts that only He can fill.” (I cut and pasted this from a google search, thus the weird fonts and bolding). 
 

I have deep friendships and a good marriage but there is a “lonely spot “ in my soul that only God has been able to fill. 

I used to feel this, but then God sent a tsunami into my life that pulled me out away from almost all of my connections, including my church.  I went from being involved and connected to being spiritually adrift.  And when I turned to God, another wave would pull me under.  Still working that out. 

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I was rarely lonely when my kids were at home.

I was at my loneliest as a SAHM of littles. I was incredibly depressed. I got well once I returned to work and had interactions with adults.

[Melissa Louise]

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I was at my loneliest as a SAHM of littles. I was incredibly depressed. I got well once I returned to work and had interactions with adults.

Returning to work is a mixed blessing for me.

They're not really my people.

But the interaction on balance is good.

I had my ideal circumstances homeschooling. High levels of autonomy in how I managed my time and work, and high levels  of connection with three very affectionate children. Love and freedom - my two best things.

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

 

Cultivate relationships with people who will grow to love you? 
 

I became much closer to a couple different friends by hiking with them on a regular basis. It’s amazing how open people can be walking side-by-side with another. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

31 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

 

You are not alone in this.  While I no longer have close friends, I worked and was around people I enjoyed.  My work was fulfilling.  I felt needed ... but in the role I filled, not needed for being me.  I still feel like I'm on the fringes.  

I don't have any advice as I'm still trying to figure things out.  I am looking for work and looking to join things, but I don't have the expectation that they will fill that hole inside of me, but may make that hole more tolerable.  

[marbel]

36 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

 

I live with my husband and one young adult kid, and I still feel lonely at times.

When I worked I felt even more lonely, because I was a misfit among my coworkers. I mean we were pleasant, and at least during baseball season I could participate a little in our slack conversations (once we went remote) but basically... well, they weren't my people and I wasn't theirs, let's leave it at that. 

I'm on the lookout for hiking/walking groups, book groups, interesting public programs such as author events, in the hope I will meet someone to connect with on a friendly basis.  I love my husband and son but they don't fill all my needs. I mean I don't fill all theirs, either. 

 

[marbel]

Regarding my mother being a shy introvert but being happy enough in a retirement community, I should add: she had very low expectations of happiness.  She had had a hard life and being happy was not a thing she thought of much. I think she was content with or at least accepting of her "lot in life." 

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

At one point I felt lonely even though I had friends, I was working and had friends there too, I was even engaged and then married. 

What got me out was my ex-boyfriend's mom invited me to a crafting group she was starting. That group of women all of whom were at least twice my age (some of their kids were older than me) got me out of my loneliness. I was going through a situation that most people my age or my typical associates had no idea about. This group of older women though shared similar enough experience, finding empathetic ears really help get me out of feeling lonely. I don't know if something like that might be blocking you from feeling not lonely. 

[marbel]

17 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm going on a long weekend trip by myself soon and I was a little embarrassed to tell people because they won't understand. I'm going to several art museums and some indie bookstores and I will get to sleep in a comfy hotel bed all by myself. The drive is about 7 hours and I'll listen to a good audiobook in the car all by myself. I'm ridiculously excited about it. 

But I know many people would find that very lonely and kind of pathetic. 

 

It sounds like a great trip to me! Not pathetic at all. I'd love to do something like that. I feel too... obligated to other people. Like, my husband hasn't gone anywhere for a long time either, so he'd want to go along. 

I've actually been thinking about going to an overnight at a retreat center. It's not an organized retreat, just a room in a retreat center to spend time alone. It's not as much fun as what you have planned, but it would be something!

[ScoutTN]

37 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm going on a long weekend trip by myself soon and I was a little embarrassed to tell people because they won't understand. I'm going to several art museums and some indie bookstores and I will get to sleep in a comfy hotel bed all by myself. The drive is about 7 hours and I'll listen to a good audiobook in the car all by myself. I'm ridiculously excited about it. 

But I know many people would find that very lonely and kind of pathetic. 

 

Sounds fabulous! I had a solo retreat a couple years ago and long for another one. I camped and did outdoorsy things and it was lovely, but I’d love to do a museum and bookstore version! 
 

I often volunteer to drive my kids to camp or pick them up because 5 hours of driving alone and a night in a hotel is nice. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that the ability to be at peace while alone is just as important as social skills. One doesn’t cancel out the other. 

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

From what I have read, the bias is more pronounced in the US.  I've often wondered whether - in situations where people had a choice whether they moved to the US - it was the extroverts who did so. The introverts stayed home and said to each other, 'Mustn't grumble.'

Eta personality type and migration https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170413-different-nationalities-really-have-different-personalities

They say something similar about ADHD.

[mommyoffive]

54 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm going on a long weekend trip by myself soon and I was a little embarrassed to tell people because they won't understand. I'm going to several art museums and some indie bookstores and I will get to sleep in a comfy hotel bed all by myself. The drive is about 7 hours and I'll listen to a good audiobook in the car all by myself. I'm ridiculously excited about it. 

But I know many people would find that very lonely and kind of pathetic. 

 

Sounds glorious.   I hope you have a great time.

[frogger]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm feeling increasingly weird as the thread goes on.

I can't be the only person who feels loneliness but who has friends, work etc?

All you non-lonely people, brainstorm for me.

If the hole is not God-sized, but living-with-people-who-love-you sized, and you are not an old granny who can go to retirement living, what to do?

 

I don't think your weird. My kids are mostly grown. The youngest are still home (once in awhile 😂). 

My husband is great and I love him and we get along wonderfully but there are parts of my life we don't share so when my best buddies went back to school, work, and still had kids at home and carving out a rare hour became impossible, I did get really really lonely. Honestly, groups and casual friends aren't going to fill that void for me. I need someone who gets me. We have started meeting at 6 AM once a week cause that's all we have. 😂

I think we all have a variety of things we want to share with people. We may need only a couple friends  if we overlap a lot but if my biking/hiking buddy isn't someone I can share some other vastly important part of my life with (religion, poetry, raising kids, whatever happens to be important to you) then that part of your life might leave a hole. 

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm going on a long weekend trip by myself soon and I was a little embarrassed to tell people because they won't understand. I'm going to several art museums and some indie bookstores and I will get to sleep in a comfy hotel bed all by myself. The drive is about 7 hours and I'll listen to a good audiobook in the car all by myself. I'm ridiculously excited about it. 

But I know many people would find that very lonely and kind of pathetic. 

 

Sounds great!

[Melissa Louise]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

Cultivate relationships with people who will grow to love you? 
 

I became much closer to a couple different friends by hiking with them on a regular basis. It’s amazing how open people can be walking side-by-side with another. 

I have those - sibling, friends.

But even if you spend a lot of time with your sibling or your friends, there's a lot of alone time when you're single too. Let's face it, even our best friends aren't going to be coming over to cuddle with us on the daily 😂

I guess this is how women turn into cat ladies...

 

[Shoeless]

7 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think I'm at a stage in my life where I don't expect much of people. That sounds worse than it is. But going through a traumatic parting with our former community made me jaded. People are clique-y and exclude those who are different. But I'm finding that I'm around people who accept more than I expect so I'm sure that I'm feeling more accepted overall which makes me feel less lonely. Basically, I have pretty low expectations so it's not hard to meet them. 

ETA that I'm a big reader. I read about 3 books a week. It keeps me off social media. Reading good books makes me happy and I'm sure that helps me to feel less lonely. 

I've landed in a similar place. I don't have local friends right now, but I'm not lonely.  However, when I did have local friends, I often still felt lonely.  I did not feel confident in those relationships because I did not feel confident in myself. 

I've spent a lot of my life hustling for my worth and I'm just not doing it anymore.  A lot of energy was poured into other people's needs and wants. I don't have the energy for that anymore. I don't mean it unkindly; I'm not stomping off in a snit or anything like that. I'm just...very protective of my energy right now, what I'm putting out into the world and how much I put out there. 

The last few years were hard.  I also had a traumatic parting with people I cared about deeply.  I'm sure that has impacted my mindset. 

And yes to staying off social media. I wonder how much of the loneliness "epidemic" is because people think everyone else out there is living their best lives. Maybe people wouldn't feel so lonely if they stayed off social media. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I wrote over the Reading thread that female friendships in romance novels feels aspirational just like the lifestyles of the characters. I'd just finished a sapphic romance, Astrid Parker Doesn't Fail by Ashley Herring Blake, that I didn't like. The book had a core group of 3 female friends (which had become 4 friends in the first book in the series). The 4 women live very upper middle class lives in a charming little town. They spend all of their time together and are always there for each other. Does anyone have long term friendships like after adolescence? I haven't. But we want that, or the publishers think we want that, just like we want jobs that pay very well while allowing time for a fabulous social life. 

Sharing an article that I just found about Hannah Arendt's ideas about loneliness. 

Where loneliness can lead

Interesting. Have people always experienced loneliness? Did they experience a feeling like loneliness but lacked language to describe what they were feeling? 

Arendt defined loneliness...

Most of the article is political so I'm not quoting more. 

I wonder how much human touch relates to feelings of loneliness? American culture is not physical. We don't kiss each other in greetings. Generally speaking, Americans touch only family members. I've been in groups where it was common for women to hug their friends but not all groups are like that. 

Such interesting links.

A great deal, I'd say.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have those - sibling, friends.

But even if you spend a lot of time with your sibling or your friends, there's a lot of alone time when you're single too. Let's face it, even our best friends aren't going to be coming over to cuddle with us on the daily 😂

I guess this is how women turn into cat ladies...

 

I think, going back to your “How do you do it” question, for me, once I’ve felt seen and heard by those main people around once a week or so, my need for human connection is topped up. I don’t then feel lonely when I’m alone. I do, However, live with a spouse and one child. And I see my other two kids often. 

[SKL]

10 hours ago, marbel said:

I've actually been thinking about going to an overnight at a retreat center. It's not an organized retreat, just a room in a retreat center to spend time alone. It's not as much fun as what you have planned, but it would be something!

For years, I've dreamed about going to some sort of spiritual spa (multiple days) by myself.  Maybe it's even a bucket list item.  My friends would think it meant I hate them.  😛  I don't know what my kids would think.

When I used to travel alone for work (before kids), it was always great if I could legitimately tack on an extra night at the end just to chill by myself with no accountability.

SInce I became a mom, I have been reluctant to go anywhere while leaving my kids at home.  I assume that feeling will not last much longer though.  I did threaten to go on a leisure trip without them (so I wouldn't have to hear their complaints), but they said they want to travel with me, so ....

[SKL]

5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have those - sibling, friends.

But even if you spend a lot of time with your sibling or your friends, there's a lot of alone time when you're single too. Let's face it, even our best friends aren't going to be coming over to cuddle with us on the daily 😂

I guess this is how women turn into cat ladies...

Or German Shepherd people.  From what I've heard, they are great cuddlers.  😛  (After they get past the bitey puppy stage.)

[SKL]

I wonder if what some people are calling loneliness is actually longing.

Longing is an interesting topic for me.  Is it a bad feeling or a good feeling?  I love music about longing.  But I don't think there's anything I long for, at least not very often.

[regentrude]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm going on a long weekend trip by myself soon and I was a little embarrassed to tell people because they won't understand. I'm going to several art museums and some indie bookstores and I will get to sleep in a comfy hotel bed all by myself. The drive is about 7 hours and I'll listen to a good audiobook in the car all by myself. I'm ridiculously excited about it. 

But I know many people would find that very lonely and kind of pathetic. 

Sounds delightful. I am very much a people person, but I love trips by myself once in a while. A few years ago, I realized that I hadn't traveled, even just a few hours away, without dh or a kid in twenty years! I started doing it for shorter trips, went camping by myself and traveled to poetry festivals etc. Love it. I enjoy driving by myself ( if it's not city traffic; that I loathe).

Edited May 11, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

6 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Let's face it, even our best friends aren't going to be coming over to cuddle with us on the daily 😂

I guess this is how women turn into cat ladies...

That's very possible. One of my best friends is single and has always been (I guess that might be quite different than being single because of a relationship that didn't work). She is the happiest upbeat person I know with a life filled with friends - and she always had cats! 

I just recently added two indoor cats to our family, and I can't believe what a difference that makes: there's always someone waiting when I get home who wants cuddles and pets. I am not a very physical person when it comes to humans; cats are fantastic for cuddling needs.

Edited May 11, 2023 by regentrude