I need to work towards scaling back time at DD's but how and when? Please help me brainstorm.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Please don't quote my crazy ramble. 

First of all, I love time with DD and the girls and don't regret the long hours and days here. Even in scaling back I'm sure I will still be here a lot. 

But I need to scale back soon .... but how??

Y'all know we've had a lot of hurdles and we are in such a better pace now but they are 10 weeks old today and not good sleepers. They never fall asleep anywhere but in arms or one of those soft close to the body carriers. They do not fall asleep in the stroller, the swing, carseats, etc. Only close to a person. DD will sometimes just keep them asleep on the twin nursing pillow between nursing sessions so I can make dinner or whatever but often I have one baby in a soft carrier on me, while she has another on her. We have had no luck whatsoever transitioning them to beds, they scream the minute they are put down if they are tired. They are just now having more awake time and can sometimes be awake in the crib looking at a board book or babbling so that is a relief but doesn't last long. 

Also, DD just needs me so much. I'm the best at knowing what she needs and anticipating her needs and she doesn't like to ask for things. I try to have time at home on Saturdays and Sundays but come Monday she and babies are both a little stressed out. We function well Monday through Friday. This is getting better now than it was a few weeks ago. Each week is a little better, thankfully. 

As much as I want time at home some days and miss my garden, etc it really isn't about me. Ds13 has handled this all so graciously but I can tell he needs more time away from here. I'm carrying a lot of guilt over the last few years (and to some extent his whole life) being so focused on the older 3. Anyone with a trailing kid will understand what I mean. His younger years were often spent worked around their activities and plans. It has been one thing after another too. I remember thinking it'll be better after.... but it has been one consecutive thing after another. For a chunk there I was focused on getting the older ones through high school and into college (or a career). As soon as #3 was graduated and settled into her own, it was wedding planning for #1 then all of that energy moved to #3 who got married 9 months later. #2 had a lot of health issues that I was trying to navigate too. And DS13 has just so graciously been waiting for things to settle. We really, really thought we were going to get more time with him when #3 was married and we had a great summer focused on him and then by Aug or Sept DD was pregnant and couldn't keep anything down and she needed a lot of me her entire pregnancy. I was feeding her and taking care of her Monday through Friday. And now we are at her house Monday through Friday. Thankfully we took a few days last fall and took him to Savannah, just him. He is so sweet about it all, he really is a great kid. We are very close and I love him to pieces and every hurdle is something that I hope will end soon so I can have more time with him, but it is literally always something else.  The other person is DH. He works a lot and he is having to pick up a lot of slack at our house, again, no complaint at all. He is great. 

We are going to the beach later this month, all 11 of us. When we get back they will be 3 months old. I want to scale back my time here but I feel guilty even thinking about it. 

How?  And what should it look like? Should I just come for partial days or certain days a week? or is it just too soon to even consider that an option?

 

ETA: I was coming here from 6:30 AM to 6:30 PM and this week I haven't been coming at 6:30. I've been showing up more like 8-8:30? I've tried to tackle a few small projects like stake a few tomatoes or harvest some veggies, etc  and then head over. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[mommyoffive]

Ugh I understand the younger kids getting the short end of the stick.  I feel so much guilt about it. 

Is your ds in public school?  What are his plans for summer? 

Your dd's dh is home on the weekends correct? 

I think I would start with the weekends and not come over during that time first.  If both parents are there it would be the time of less need.  

Pretty much all my kids except one were like the twins.  Obviously it gets better, but for mine it wasn't a quick process.  I feel at least in my experience of 5 kids, that some just have to be held and close.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Ugh I understand the younger kids getting the short end of the stick.  I feel so much guilt about it. 

Is your ds in public school?  What are his plans for summer? 

Your dd's dh is home on the weekends correct? 

I think I would start with the weekends and not come over during that time first.  If both parents are there it would be the time of less need.  

Pretty much all my kids except one were like the twins.  Obviously it gets better, but for mine it wasn't a quick process.  I feel at least in my experience of 5 kids, that some just have to be held and close.  

 

DS is homeschooled. We've just been leaving his school books here Monday through Friday and he works here so we do have that at least. 

I try not to come over on the weekends unless I have to. This last weekend DSIL had a business trip so I was here. But I really really try not to come on weekends. 

[Katy]

I can’t remember how premature they were… would they be past 6 weeks if they’d been full term? I’d encourage her to start sleep training them if so. I realize it’s controversial but it won’t hurt them to learn to sleep in a crib, maybe together.  I might send her out of the house to Target to get them down. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

I can’t remember how premature they were… would they be past 6 weeks if they’d been full term? I’d encourage her to start sleep training them if so. I realize it’s controversial but it won’t hurt them to learn to sleep in a crib, maybe together.  I might send her out of the house to Target to get them down. 

They were 36 weeks so I think they would just now be 6 weeks? Is that how it works?

We really need to sleep train. She wants to wait until 3 months for that but I think she's too soft to try it honestly. 

ETA: there is a part of me that thinks me scaling back would force her to find better solutions. If that makes sense?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Katy]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

They were 36 weeks so I think they would just now be 6 weeks? Is that how it works?

We really need to sleep train. She wants to wait until 3 months for that but I think she's too soft to try it honestly. 

That’s why I suggested YOU do it🤣

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, Katy said:

That’s why I suggested YOU do it🤣

Is there a resource you suggest for this? I don't remember having this issue with mine but I also wasn't afraid to let them cry some. I don't think I'd get her to leave the house but maybe I can get her to let me try. 

[freesia]

I agree that you being less available would lead to better solutions for her. My opinions and journey with sleep training is confusing. With my fourth I finally did let her cry to settle for her daytime naps. I was homeschooling and had four older and the stress of teaching her gently was becoming toxic for all of us. My dh pointed out that it was better for everyone if I let her cry. He was right. I think in your case I might try one at a time so they don’t wind each other up. Feed or rock until sleepy and then put her in the crib and leave. I would come in every two minutes to give her a touch. That’s what worked for two of mine. The fourth needed me to leave her for more like 5-10 minutes. It worked in a few days. 

[Kassia]

I used The Baby Whisperer for sleep issues with my youngest but she was much older.  It worked great but every baby is so different.  One of my twins was always sick and/or had ear infections the first year so I never used any kind of sleep training with him - I was too afraid that he'd be crying due to not feeling well.  

 

ETA - I think it was called the pick up/put down method or something like that.  But I wouldn't use sleep training on a newborn.  At 10 weeks, I feel like they are still too young for that.  JMO though! 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Kassia

[fraidycat]

I would scale back number of hours first to help your DD and the babies learn some new routines and coping methods, probably starting with coming later in the mornings. It would be too easy to stay "just a little bit longer" in the afternoons.

After a week or two, I would then cut out Wednesday so she has them alone for one full day mid-week. Then I'd cut out Mondays or Fridays since she has her DH on the weekends.

[Katy]

29 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Is there a resource you suggest for this? I don't remember having this issue with mine but I also wasn't afraid to let them cry some. I don't think I'd get her to leave the house but maybe I can get her to let me try. 

I used to put mine down awake but sleepy, and if they cried I’d pat them and talk softly, “It’s time for bed. You’re okay.” Then when they would wake in the night I’d wait about ten minutes to get them if they weren’t screaming.  Often they would babble and go right back to sleep. 

I’m not sure any of that applies if they already scream when you put them down.  I never had to use harsh methods, but I put them all in cribs or basinets for naps from birth so they never got used to needing to sleep on me. I’d expect them to cry a lot for maybe 10 days until they get used to it.  I always figured I couldn’t function if I didn’t get any sleep. The older I get the more true that seems.

[Arcadia]

If you are the kind who would leave your daughter’s home on time, you could show up later. Maybe even lunch at home with your son and then bring the “leftovers” for your daughter. If you are the kind that would stay longer, then cutting back on days might work better.   

[Indigo Blue]

Anne I have absolutely no advice for you, but I just want you to know that you are one fantastic, caring Super Mom. 

[busymama7]

I think you are amazing.   I am totally against leaving babies to cry so if it was that or continuing to help, I would continue.   When I was ready to transition, I would start by staying home in the morning with the 13 year old to do school etc.   Come over after lunch and stay through making dinner. That is the hardest time.  And would allow her an afternoon nap and dinner made which would be perfect. 

[vonfirmath]

I like the idea of dropping a day mid-week. If you are going away for the beach later this month, sounds like she needs to learn coping by then anyways. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by vonfirmath

[freesia]

25 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I used The Baby Whisperer for sleep issues with my youngest but she was much older.  It worked great but every baby is so different.  One of my twins was always sick and/or had ear infections the first year so I never used any kind of sleep training with him - I was too afraid that he'd be crying due to not feeling well.  

 

ETA - I think it was called the pick up/put down method or something like that.  But I wouldn't use sleep training on a newborn.  At 10 weeks, I feel like they are still too young for that.  JMO though! 

The baby whisperer had terrible breastfeeding advice IMO but that pick up put down did inform how I did it with my middle two. It was too stressful with my last. 
 

Happiest Baby on the Block is wonderful for teaching a tight swaddle which helps with babies who like to be held. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by freesia

[KSera]

57 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 I don't remember having this issue with mine but I also wasn't afraid to let them cry some. I don't think I'd get her to leave the house but maybe I can get her to let me try. 

I would only do this is your dd wants you to. I honestly would have been BEYOND furious if a grandparent got me to leave the house so that they could do something I didn't wish to do with my babies (I don't think that sounds like something you would do either, just wanting to make sure).

25 minutes ago, Kassia said:

But I wouldn't use sleep training on a newborn.  At 10 weeks, I feel like they are still too young for that.  JMO though! 

Agree. Even sleep training advocates typically don't recommend doing it that young. And even more so for babies who were born early. With their small size, I wouldn't be thinking of trying to get them to sleep through the night yet. Most of my babies were the type that really needed to be held as well, and that often ends up having a physical reason. Several of mine were silent refluxers, which commonly leads babies to need a lot of upright holding and motion to settle. My most difficult to settle ended up being neurodivergent, which is also a common association. I'm glad I didn't force the issue with them (I did try in desperation with my first eventually when she was a lot older than the twins are, and she never ever stopped crying and I felt terrible for having been pressured into it when it didn't feel right). I realize though that this is a lot more complicated with two babies. I could just wear the one baby and know that it was a season of life that would pass soon enough, and it did. I really don't know how I would have done it with two though, so your dd has my full sympathy on that difficulty.

eta: I totally empathize with your situation with your youngest. We've had the same situation with "as soon as...." and then there's always another thing and another thing and another thing

Edited May 3, 2023 by KSera

[bolt.]

I think the place to start with 'scaling back' is by focusing on what's already working -- which is weekends and shifting the morning to 8:30.

Why do weekends work? Is it because the other parent is there for the weekends and does 'your job'? Or does it actually work for her to get through those times on her own? If so, why does it work? And what helps it work?

Similarly why/how is it going with moving your morning arrival to 8:30?

Once you've got a handle on those factors-of-functioning, I suggest first solidifying that you are coming at 8:30 and not before -- and give some time to get used to that.

Then I would go to a combination of full-days (maybe MWF) and half-days. Starting with only one day per week, go to a  half-day starting around lunch time. Then go down to two half-days per week.

Give that some time to settle, then start leaving early (with supper pre-prepared) on the full-days.

Give that some time, before working (slowly) towards something like just a couple of hours on T/Th, and half-days on MWF.

Then work slowly towards nothing on T/Th and a few hours on MWF -- and you can probably stay on that schedule semi-long-term if you like.

To do this, you need to 'radically accept' the truth that it's completely true that nobody is doing quite as well in that home during the times that you are not there -- That you know full well that they do better when you are there, and that there are tears, stress, and sleep deprivation genuinely happening when you step away. The distress will be real. You can't successfully do this saying, "I'll step away and they will be fine." -- because that's not true, and when evidence shows that they are 'not fine' you will step back in automatically. Doing it with your eyes open and the ability to say, "They aren't doing awesome, and also, my other priorities are real too." -- is the only way to make this work. (So, if that's not true for you, it might be best not to take these steps at this time. It would be stressful for no good reason if you are just going to resume your current level of contribution eventually.)

[SKL]

The way to scale back is to have a competing responsibility.  "I won't be here from Wednesday to Friday because I am attending ____ / have health appointments / have out-of-town guests coming for the weekend."

They make double baby-wearing carriers that work for front and/or back carrying.

Are they letting the babies sleep together?  That might help them sleep.

I don't know how long a mom of twins needs a high level of help.  It seems to me that the immobile age is going to give way to the mobile age, which doesn't seem likely to be easier ... and I think it would be wise not to let this household feel like you're always going to be there for every stage that isn't easy ... because then it would never end.

At 10 weeks, the family could probably benefit from a teen mother's helper if things are super hard.

[Tenaj]

I would just tell my daughter that I need to scale back and work with her to determination be how that can happen.  You have a husband and son who needs you and  are your primary responsibility and now that the initial crisis is over with the twins, she and her husband need to figure this out.  I would give her one day a week or a morning or afternoon - whichever I could manage and that's it except for special circumstances like illness or a date night. 

It sounds like you have been very involved all the way through the pregnancy to now.  Maybe it's time to back off and let them make their own way even through tough times 🙂

[fairfarmhand]

29 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

At 10 weeks, the family could probably benefit from a teen mother's helper if things are super hard.

This. 

And I would find other "at my house" ways to be helpful. Bring over cooked dinner three nights a week? (Prep a double batch for your own family)? Bring their laundry to your house and get it done at your house and deliver it later? Pay for a cleaning service once a week for a month? 

I get it. You and your ds do need to be home, so I'd look for ways to fold dd's work into my at home work. 

That'll help her feel better about sitting and holding babies.

And the reality is that sometimes these babies are going to cry. She will have to come to terms with her discomfort with that. 

So I would totally start skipping Wednesdays for 2-3 weeks. Then maybe come an hour later every week during the days that you do come.

After that's going well, switch to a MWF arrangement where you're staying for like a 6 hour period on the days you're there. 

[Terabith]

Sleep training did not work at all for my youngest.  She got so upset she stayed awake for 72 hours straight at six months old, and she screamed the ENTIRE time.  Even after we had long given up and were holding her.  The very act of trying was disastrous.  

But I agree that it's worth trying.  I just always get skeptical when people tell me it always works.  Because it absolutely, 100% doesn't.  

ETA:  While I think it's worth trying, my gut says that 10 weeks when they were premies is too young.  Or even if they weren't premies.  But, on the other hand, I think the reality of twins is that there are times when you have to put a baby down even if they don't like it and let them cry while you do something else (pee, finish prepping dinner, change the other baby's diaper, etc).  I wouldn't think of it as sleep training so much as just accepting that sometimes, the world does not conform to everyone's needs and desires.  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Terabith

[athena1277]

I had 2 babies that I couldn’t put down once I got them to sleep.  What I finally learned with my youngest was to put a heating pad on low in her crib and take it out just before putting her down (always check that it’s not too hot).  That was the only way to put her down for at least the first 3 months.  We always waited I until 8 months or so to do any kind of sleep training.  It’s just not good when they are so little.  
 

 

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Anne I have absolutely no advice for you, but I just want you to know that you are one fantastic, caring Super Mom. 

She really is!  I would have given anything to have a mom like @Ann.without.an.e when I had twin preemies and a preschooler.  It would have made such a difference.  

[Katy]

To be clear I wouldn’t lie and sleep train behind her back. Her babies, her choice. But we’ve had 2-3 babies at a time at times over the years and I couldn’t have done it without sleep training. And frankly if they were in daycare there would be times they’d be put down in a crib for a nap. I think it’s wrong to guilt trip moms into thinking they must hold babies who want to be held 24/7. It’s too much pressure. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

To be clear and correct misunderstandings ... neither DD nor I were thinking of any sort of sleep training before 3-4 months old and then it would be gentle. No CIO method, I'm not a fan and neither is DD.

And I would NEVER, EVER sleep train her babies behind her back. When I referred to getting her out of the house it was in reply to @Katy and I think we both thought that would be if she wanted me to try it but she knew she couldn't hear crying. But it would have to be her wishes. 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

36 minutes ago, Katy said:

To be clear I wouldn’t lie and sleep train behind her back. Her babies, her choice. But we’ve had 2-3 babies at a time at times over the years and I couldn’t have done it without sleep training. And frankly if they were in daycare there would be times they’d be put down in a crib for a nap. I think it’s wrong to guilt trip moms into thinking they must hold babies who want to be held 24/7. It’s too much pressure. 

I think it is almost impossible with two babies like this unless you have someone committed to help you around the clock, which is me and DSIL taking turns but I cannot keep up this routine forever. So sleep training will need to happen eventually. Maybe not now but eventually.

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Sleep training did not work at all for my youngest.  She got so upset she stayed awake for 72 hours straight at six months old, and she screamed the ENTIRE time.  Even after we had long given up and were holding her.  The very act of trying was disastrous.  

 

This is her fear. They are asleep and once put down they wake up and won't sleep and get overtired and the vicious cycle begins. It doesn't feel worth it to try it. 

 

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

 

Why do weekends work? Is it because the other parent is there for the weekends and does 'your job'? Or does it actually work for her to get through those times on her own? If so, why does it work? And what helps it work?

Similarly why/how is it going with moving your morning arrival to 8:30?

 

 

Weekends work because DSIL is here but since he isn't as much help I'm sure she is also doing a little more on her own. But he can pouch a baby and she can pouch the other and she can get a break from sitting in the rocking chair in the nursery with two sleeping girls on her. 

So far the later arrival is going ok. 

[freesia]

33 minutes ago, Katy said:

To be clear I wouldn’t lie and sleep train behind her back. Her babies, her choice. But we’ve had 2-3 babies at a time at times over the years and I couldn’t have done it without sleep training. And frankly if they were in daycare there would be times they’d be put down in a crib for a nap. I think it’s wrong to guilt trip moms into thinking they must hold babies who want to be held 24/7. It’s too much pressure. 

Yes, this is part of my complicated story.  I did love snuggling my babies to sleep.  I could have done without all the guilt surrounding letting babies do any crying to sleep.  I still don't love the idea of letting them cry alone as long as it takes, but it was so important for me to realize that everyone in the family mattered (including me) and that it would be ok to let them cry a bit.  Certainly when you have your second child--well, if there is also a toddler in the house, you realize that someone is going to cry and wait at some point every day.  And my last, who cried the longest during sleep training is very securely attached and loves her bed.

[freesia]

5 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

This is her fear. They are asleep and once put down they wake up and won't sleep and get overtired and the vicious cycle begins. It doesn't feel worth it to try it. 

 

 

Weekends work because DSIL is here but since he isn't as much help I'm sure she is also doing a little more on her own. But he can pouch a baby and she can pouch the other and she can get a break from sitting in the rocking chair in the nursery with two sleeping girls on her. 

So far the later arrival is going ok. 

That's a bit of catastrophizing on her part.  I recognize it because I did that too as a new mom.   For putting down awake or asleep, it worked best to swaddle tighly and then put my hand on baby for awhile until baby settled, patting a bit on the tummy.  I love the heating pad idea.  I also ran white noise in the room (but that's bc mostly I had other kids making noise.)  I think if baby gets overstimulated then low stimulation until sleepy again and trying as soon as they have that tired stare.  I would also with some, stay close and when they stirred wiggle the stroller (oldest napped in a stroller) or pat the swaddled baby's tummy to get them to resettle through the 45 minute wake up period and sleep another 45 minutes.  That helped with the overtired, which helped with the sleep.

Actually, now that I have typed this I am realizing that the stroller (without the carseat) was exactly how I got ds1 used to not sleeping on me.  He would fall asleep in the stroller and then I'd wheel him in (he was a Nov baby) and then read by the stroller until he stirred, at which point I would wiggle the stroller.   I have no idea how I got from that point to the bed, though, but it worked for weening him off of me and getting longer sleep cycles.  I tried for 2-- 1 1/2 hour naps and one 45 minute one starting around 2 months or so.

[Katy]

To be clear I’ve cared for a shaken baby and the mother didn’t know she could put the (clean, fed, burped, and swaddled) baby down in the crib and that maybe the crying was from overstimulation. That particular baby needed a dark quiet room to calm and sleep. The idea that letting a baby cry is always harsh and cruel is also harsh and cruel. I bristle at the idea that sleep training even at a young age is harsh. There are extremes at both sides but frankly I think a lot of young mothers aren’t told leaving a baby in a safe space is okay even if they’re unhappy about it. Obviously screaming for a long time is too far in the other direction.

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, freesia said:

Yes, this is part of my complicated story.  I did love snuggling my babies to sleep.  I could have done without all the guilt surrounding letting babies do any crying to sleep.  I still don't love the idea of letting them cry alone as long as it takes, but it was so important for me to realize that everyone in the family mattered (including me) and that it would be ok to let them cry a bit.

As someone who never did any cry it out or sleep training, and probably never would/could, I do agree with this. I had not realized how many moms took "no cry it out" to mean "baby never will cry" and felt guilt if they did. Like, hello, it is okay to finish brushing your teeth even if they are fussing in the bouncy seat. It is okay to take a 5 minute shower while they fuss in their crib. it is okay to finish unloading the dishwasher even if they start crying halfway through. I would just tell them "I'm coming, don't worry, mama just has a few more plates to put away" or sing to them or whatever. But man, if one has the goal of them NEVER EVER EVER uttering a cry...that's crazy making. I had NO IDEA that was how people were taking it when I said I didn't do cry it out, until my best friend told me. I was like.honey...no....that's not what I meant!!! I have many children, I can't do what they all want at any given moment. Sometimes someone is going to be unhappy for a few minutes. 

That said, on the flip side, I also think it is VITAL that new mothers understand and even embrace the idea of yes, you will be stuck under a sleeping or nursing baby for hours and hours a day. In your rocker, or arm chair, or couch, or whatever. And just...go with it. Keep the remote nearby, find cool things to watch on TV. If you are sick of sily tv start watching documentaries, listen to audiobooks, whatever. Watch all of the Rick Steves videos on Europe. It's all good. So often we feel "stuck" and like we SHOULD be cleaning/cooking/folding laundry/doing dishes/running errands, etc. But nope. Your job really is to sit with a baby on your chest much of the time. It's only for.a few months, and then they will be crawling and getting into EVERYTHING and you realize wow....what on earth was I complaining about when all I had to do was sit and hold them, lol. 

So embracing that yes, sitting with babies for a few months is okay, and sure, if she had 4 other kids she wouldn't be able to do that....but she doesn't have other kids. She is blessed to have the ability to sit there and just hold babies while watching TV/reading/etc. And she shouldn't feel guilty about that. Not one bit. 

BUT

She also shouldn't feel guilty if one is crying while she changes the other's diaper, or they are both crying while she is stuck on the toilet pooping, or whatever. 

(in practical terms, I'd nurse on a mattress on the floor in the nursery until they were asleep, gently unlatch, and scootch myself away and leave them there)

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

To be clear I’ve cared for a shaken baby and the mother didn’t know she could put the (clean, fed, burped, and swaddled) baby down in the crib and that maybe the crying was from overstimulation. That particular baby needed a dark quiet room to calm and sleep. The idea that letting a baby cry is always harsh and cruel is also harsh and cruel. I bristle at the idea that sleep training even at a young age is harsh. There are extremes at both sides but frankly I think a lot of young mothers aren’t told leaving a baby in a safe space is okay even if they’re unhappy about it. Obviously screaming for a long time is too far in the other direction.

 

I think I've said it in another thread but I really feel for the young moms now. It is impossible to be a mom. Tik Tok is the worst too. DD watched a lot of it when she was pregnant and it was one scary thing after the other. Don't let your baby fall asleep in a stroller...they'll die. Don't let your baby fall asleep in the carseat...they'll die. The swing? they'll die. In your bed? they'll die. In a carrier - death it is. They literally expect you to wake your sleeping baby from the stroller, carseat, swing, etc and move them to the crib because that is the only safe place. But they also aren't supposed to cry at all in the crib. I dunno how a mom does it. 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

To be clear I’ve cared for a shaken baby and the mother didn’t know she could put the (clean, fed, burped, and swaddled) baby down in the crib and that maybe the crying was from overstimulation. That particular baby needed a dark quiet room to calm and sleep. The idea that letting a baby cry is always harsh and cruel is also harsh and cruel. I bristle at the idea that sleep training even at a young age is harsh. There are extremes at both sides but frankly I think a lot of young mothers aren’t told leaving a baby in a safe space is okay even if they’re unhappy about it. Obviously screaming for a long time is too far in the other direction.

I tihnk a lot of the bristling on both sides comes from misunderstanding. I thought ANY sleep training was cruel and unusual punishment after having my first, because if he was put down while awake he'd SCREAM and turn purple and blotchy and eventually start chocking and gasping for air. It got worse and worse the longer it went on. So, if that is your only experience of how a baby reacts to being put to bed awake, of course you think it is cruel. I thought that all those parents who were sleep training were letting their children gasp for air, turning colors, screaming and panicking and freaking out for hours on end. 

Only when I had other, less dramatic children, did I realize what "fussing" was. My kid went from 0-nuclear with no "fussing" in between. I mean, sometimes he would sort of cry in a low level fussy way, but that was WHILE holding him. Put him down and it was no holds barred panic and flat out screaming. But DD13 actually did some of that "stir, gently fuss a bit, then fall back fully asleep" and I was like, OH. Maybe parents are not being as mean as I thought! 

And on the flip side, when I say I don't do sleep training or cry it out, I only recently realized some thought that meant never putting a crying baby down when you needed a few minutes to regroup, never putting them down when you had to shower or make dinner, etc. I often had to set him down when he was crying and colicky just to keep myself from going inane. I'd go pick him back up again after splashing water on my face and taking a few minutes in a locked bathroom with the fan running. And I of course didn't stop cooking midmeal or get out of the shower with shampoo on my hair if he started crying. He had to wait. 

So yeah, I really think a lot of it is misunderstanding both each other's words, and the different temperments in babies. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I think I've said it in another thread but I really feel for the young moms now. It is impossible to be a mom. Tik Tok is the worst too. DD watched a lot of it when she was pregnant and it was one scary thing after the other. Don't let your baby fall asleep in a stroller...they'll die. Don't let your baby fall asleep in the carseat...they'll die. The swing? they'll die. In your bed? they'll die. In a carrier - death it is. They literally expect you to wake your sleeping baby from the stroller, carseat, swing, etc and move them to the crib because that is the only safe place. But they also aren't supposed to cry at all in the crib. I dunno how a mom does it. 

That seems so miserable. My best advice for moms is to "do waht works, right now, today" and "don't parent out of fear". But it's hard. I will never forget being SO sleep deprived with a screaming baby because it "wasn't time to feed him yet" and then using a freaking timer to feed him the "right" number of minutes per breast. It was insane! I was older and more confident with the others, and what a difference. 

[freesia]

8 minutes ago, Katy said:

To be clear I’ve cared for a shaken baby and the mother didn’t know she could put the (clean, fed, burped, and swaddled) baby down in the crib and that maybe the crying was from overstimulation. That particular baby needed a dark quiet room to calm and sleep. The idea that letting a baby cry is always harsh and cruel is also harsh and cruel. I bristle at the idea that sleep training even at a young age is harsh. There are extremes at both sides but frankly I think a lot of young mothers aren’t told leaving a baby in a safe space is okay even if they’re unhappy about it. Obviously screaming for a long time is too far in the other direction.

Yes, and part of my problem was that even though I heard "it's okay if you *have* to, " the overachiever in my interpreted that it would be a huge failure on my part to get to that point--that I should be strong enough not to need to.  I think part of it was I was starting parenting during the huge sleep wars of the late '90's, early '00.  Lots of us were entrenched in our positions and very, very defensive. The Baby Whisperer book, the Happiest Baby Book and I think there was one on different gradual methods that I used with oldest (but took too long with others) were all really helpful.

[freesia]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I think I've said it in another thread but I really feel for the young moms now. It is impossible to be a mom. Tik Tok is the worst too. DD watched a lot of it when she was pregnant and it was one scary thing after the other. Don't let your baby fall asleep in a stroller...they'll die. Don't let your baby fall asleep in the carseat...they'll die. The swing? they'll die. In your bed? they'll die. In a carrier - death it is. They literally expect you to wake your sleeping baby from the stroller, carseat, swing, etc and move them to the crib because that is the only safe place. But they also aren't supposed to cry at all in the crib. I dunno how a mom does it. 

Your poor dd.   That's awful.  I remember every pregnancy there was more I couldn't eat bc it wasn't safe.  This is bringing all of this too a whole new level plus adding twins.  I wish I could come help!

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

n practical terms, I'd nurse on a mattress on the floor in the nursery until they were asleep, gently unlatch, and scootch myself away and leave them there)

That was my method, although they were on my bed.  I also would stick a pacifier in after unlatching.  That was really key for me with my kiddos.  

[Hilltopmom]

My 2 suggestions- woombie swaddlers and can dad take some FMLA hours each week to also help? Go in early or leave late a couple days a week?

[Heartstrings]

18 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I think I've said it in another thread but I really feel for the young moms now. It is impossible to be a mom. Tik Tok is the worst too. DD watched a lot of it when she was pregnant and it was one scary thing after the other. Don't let your baby fall asleep in a stroller...they'll die. Don't let your baby fall asleep in the carseat...they'll die. The swing? they'll die. In your bed? they'll die. In a carrier - death it is. They literally expect you to wake your sleeping baby from the stroller, carseat, swing, etc and move them to the crib because that is the only safe place. But they also aren't supposed to cry at all in the crib. I dunno how a mom does it. 

I’ve seen some who INSIST they are waking up, to wake *sleeping* babies throughout the night to change them because no baby should ever be “left to sit in urine”. Which is either postpartum anxiety and needs medication or is a lie. 

[vonfirmath]

delete

Edited May 3, 2023 by vonfirmath
To delete as i got stuck trying to reply

[Terabith]

Yeah, my oldest actually NEEDED to fuss a bit sometimes.  Not like full on screaming, but we moved them from our bed to a crib around 7 months because they were literally crawling out of our bed (mattress on the floor) and sleeping on the floor.  It was super clear they wanted their own space.  But also, trying to rock them to sleep just prolonged everything and they got overstimulated, and if we just put them down and let them fuss for a few (always less than 10, usually less than 5) minutes, I mean minorly complaining, they fell right asleep and slept great.

My youngest one though, was the zero to 60, absolute hysterical panic screaming right away.  Completely different babies and completely different needs.  And my kids were 17 months apart; every day (usually several times a day), even the hysterical panicked youngest would have to wait a bit, because their sister also deserved and needed attention, and I had needs, so I often was saying to crying baby, "I'm sorry, but I'm helping your sibling right now."

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

That was my method, although they were on my bed.  I also would stick a pacifier in after unlatching.  That was really key for me with my kiddos.  

Yes. I never tried a pacifier with the oldest, because rules told me not to. Wish I had. I did try with the others, but only one would ever use one, and even then under protest. 

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’ve seen some who INSIST they are waking up, to wake *sleeping* babies throughout the night to change them because no baby should ever be “left to sit in urine”. Which is either postpartum anxiety and needs medication or is a lie. 

holy crud. that's crazy making. I do remember seeing those apps and gadgets to track and tell you when baby needed to be changed and being SO confused. LIke, you changed baby if baby was wet/dirty. You just, you know, checked? But if you were sleeping you were sleeping, no one checks then. I guess having a timer to wake you was for those folks?

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 

My youngest one though, was the zero to 60, absolute hysterical panic screaming right away.  Completely different babies and completely different needs.  And my kids were 17 months apart; every day (usually several times a day), even the hysterical panicked youngest would have to wait a bit, because their sister also deserved and needed attention, and I had needs, so I often was saying to crying baby, "I'm sorry, but I'm helping your sibling right now."

I would say this too! And I would say it out loud because I figured it was really good for the older one, who so often had to wait for things because I was caring for a baby, to HEAR that they also were a priority, and sometimes the baby was the one who had to wait. 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I would say this too! And I would say it out loud because I figured it was really good for the older one, who so often had to wait for things because I was caring for a baby, to HEAR that they also were a priority, and sometimes the baby was the one who had to wait. 

Exactly!  It only seemed fair!

[ktgrok]

Another thought - the whole attachment parenting, wear them and sleep with them and feed them constantly thing is designed to go mimi a "natural" lifestyle where mom can do that. AND babies were put to sleep on their tummies, and in bed with mom, etc. That's the way it worked. 

When you try to combine that ideal of baby always happy and connected with mom, never use a pacifier, etc...but at the same time reject,  cosleeping, only think baby can sleep flat on their back in a separate crib,  etc....well it doesn't work very well. You can't really have it both ways, at least not with many babies I don't think. 

If baby has to be put down, that is where substitutes like pacifiers, bottles, swings, bouncy seats, etc come in to play, to mimic mom. Trying to go without the mom mimics but also without mom being constantly with the baby just...is too dang hard!

I will also admit that one of my kids had to sleep on his tummy or he didn't sleep. Period. Which meant I didn't sleep. He was more in danger with me never sleeping, and him being unwell from not sleeping, than from being on his tummy, as far as I'm concerned. And one had to sleep on his side. My girl babies were more willing to sleep on their backs. But supposedly one reason back sleeping is safer is they don't sleep as deeply, right? Well for some kids, I think it means they just plain don't sleep! Even on this tummy, my little PIA still didn't sleep deeply, or long. But at least I got 2-4 hours here and there. 

[Heartstrings]

16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

es. I never tried a pacifier with the oldest, because rules told me not to. Wish I had. I did try with the others, but only one would ever use one, and even then under protest. 

Mine that nursed only took the pacifier if they were asleep and unaware that I had done a switcheroo.  Never when awake.  

 

16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But if you were sleeping you were sleeping, no one checks then. I guess having a timer to wake you was for those folks?

Apparently.  I still 50/50 think some of them were lying for clout.   I just can’t fathom waking up and going to pester a sleeping baby in the middle of the night.  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Heartstrings

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Mine that nursed only took the pacifier if they were asleep and unaware that I had done a switcheroo.  Never when awake.  

 

Apparently.  I still 50/50 think some of them were lying for clout.   I just can’t fathom waking up and going to pester a sleeping baby in the middle of the night.  

Right? They have to be making it up. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrqU5kZMEFE/?igshid=ZWIzMWE5ZmU3Zg==
 

this came up today and made me 😂

[Ann.without.an.e]

32 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

delete

Oh I quoted you earlier but the reply went MIA. Dd and babies will be at the beach with us so she won’t be alone while we’re there. 

[Kassia]

When I had twin babies and a preschooler and was feeling overwhelmed (I had no help and no sleep) I would just chant to myself, "I'm doing the best I can.  I'm doing the best I can." There was just no way I could keep everyone happy at once.