What makes a child "unhomeschoolable"?

[Quarter Note]

The high school boards are active, so obviously plenty of kids can be successfully homeschooled through high school.  Then there are those of us (many of us) who can't seem to make it work.  What makes some children able to be homeschooled all the way through and others not?  Why?

Is it extreme extroversion in the unhomeschoolable child?

Is it natural differentiation ("Mom and I are not the same person")?

Is it adolescent hormones?

Is it latent learning disabilities that had lain hidden by years of Mom's scaffolding?

Please be gentle.  Assume that this mom has always been sincere, encouraging, enthusiastic, patient-but-firm, and well-organized.  But this mom is now broken.  😞  

(Just in case I lose my nerve putting this out here, please don't quote.)

[HomeAgain]

There are changing needs in kids' lives, and when I am unable to meet those needs in a sufficient way, then it's time to stop.

That's the gist of it.  Every scenario boils down to unmet needs:

-giftedness/lack of access to instruction at their level

-social

-desire for a different structure (like group conversations) or approach to learning

-hormonal/developmental changes

DS12 is in school this year.  It's terrible for him academically, but WONDERFUL for him in terms of social, executive function skills, and specialized teachers.  He is thriving, and he was no longer thriving at home.  His needs right now include social contact and independence, and our set up at home didn't allow him the range that he is currently getting.  He is enjoying the collaboration he has at school and the confidence of bringing something to the table/people depending on him.

Will we reassess down the road?  Of course.  But the fact is that there wasn't a lot in our community for 12yos beyond what we were already doing and he needed more.

[maize]

Every situation is unique; we need to be flexible and willing to pivot to meet the needs of the child in front of us, not follow some pre-determined plan.

Mostly, adolescence is hard. Brains are going through major pruning and re-wiring, personalities can change significantly.

I don't think there is much that can be said generically about kids who struggle with homeschooling as adolescents. Certainly adolescents are growing towards more independence, but that isn't something that is universally better served in an institutional school setting. Lots of adolescents struggle with brick-and-mortar schooling as well! What works best for an individual kid is going to depend on individual circumstances and needs.

In most cases, there should I think be some level of mom moving to a more supportive role while the child takes increasing responsibility and control over their learning. But...what actually happens, and what actually works best, is so individual. Without knowing what is going on with your child and what challenges exactly you are facing, I couldn't make a guess at the causes of those challenges. Is this the child with severe anxiety and OCD symptoms? I have a teen with severe OCD and schoolwork has been profoundly impacted. That's not a kid being unhomeschoolable, it's a kid with a malfunctioning brain that would be malfunctioning in any schooling situation. We pivoted to him working mostly with online tutors. Then we pivoted to just surviving and letting him read lots of books and play way more games on the computer. Now he's in an upswing and doing more interest-led learning.

Some kids do seem to function better in brick-and-mortar school. So far each of my kids who has tried that (four of them!) has much preferred being home. My kids tend towards high anxiety and school can really exacerbate that.

I call my approach to education flex-schooling. Every year I try to consider the individual needs of each child, the needs of the family as a whole, the options and opportunities available to us, and piece together a plan I think can meet the various needs. If something isn't working, we can always re-assess and make changes. 

Some years for some children no option will go smoothly. Those years we just stumble through and do the best we can.

 

 

[Quarter Note]

Hi @maize.  No, this is not the son with anxiety.  This is my thirteen-year-old daughter.  We've known that homeschooling as we've done it with her was coming to an end, so this year we signed her up for a few online classes, but that has been an expensive failure.  She's failing all of them.  If I leave her alone, she blows off school.  If I "nag" her, well, then I'm nagging and she's screaming at me.  She doesn't want my scaffolding any more.  Public school is the obvious next step for her.  I'd drop her off at the local middle school this morning if it would really be best.  But I can't imagine that dropping a kid off in middle school in the middle of the year, when she's now sure that she has ADHD and can't manage it, would be best.

(The following paragraph is rhetorical - if reflects my feelings, not my logic.) But I feel like something must have gone wrong:  Homeschooling was supposed to inoculate my kids against adolescent misbehaviors, right? 😉  Homeschooling was supposed to make them get along with each other better, be more responsible, have mature conversations with grown-ups, develop a life-long love of learning, etc., etc., etc.  I read all the right parenting and homeschooling books.  Isn't this what they promised me?  How come some moms can make it work when I can't?  Do all the moms of the high school boards parent/teach with an iron fist?  (That would not fit me.)

 

[Clemsondana]

There's a lot of variation with this!  In my circles, there are several kids who wanted to continue to be homeschooled because we have a great community with friends and activities that they want to continue with.  But, the education part was not working.  Some of these kids have issues with some combination of ADHD and anxiety that would likely cause problems of some sort in many environments but may show up in brutal ways in homeschooling.  Some kids find more success in school.  For kids who would find the social loss to be hard, outsourced (online or co-op) classes have allowed the kids to continue to be homeschooled while taking out one source of conflict.  This only works if the kid will do the work for somebody else, though.  I've had a few kids in my class who just won't work for anybody.  i don't have a lot of suggestions for that - I've watched parents struggle and know it's hard.  It seems to be more common in  boys, and I don't know exactly what is going on.  

One thing that I've seen with the kids who succeed in outsourced classes but struggle with home-based work is that, when they struggle to make themselves work (a real issue for some ADHD/anxiety people), they have the feeling that the parent COULD change the deadlines if only they WOULD.  But, if the parent allows flexibility, the kid just does nothing until they run up against the new deadline, which also needs to be moved.  The outsourcing removes this conflict between the parent and kid and can make a huge difference in family dynamics.

There can be bad fits, of course - a curriculum that is not the best choice, etc - but usually parents can identify those because the conflict is specific to one or 2 subjects.  It could be a style/preference/personality conflict, but many of the parents in this situation have tried various things - rigid schedules, no schedules, side-by-side work, independent work, consequences, incentives - so while there may be an a solution, it isn't obvious or easy.  This is also sometimes seen in families who have successfully homeschooled 1 or more other kids, so while it's not fair to 'blame' the kid, it's also not as if the parents have no competence at homeschooling.  Although, to be fair, I have one kid who probably could have homeschooled themselves once they learned to read, so while I've tried to create a good environment and provide resources and guidance and direct teaching when needed, I also can't claim but so much credit.    

[Miss Tick]

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Edited January 16, 2023 by Miss Tick

[kirstenhill]

Things were really rough between me and my oldest when she was about 10-12.  She has a late in the school year birthday so this is 5-7th grade.  She struggled to respond well in general to my parenting (not just about homeschool work), but homeschool demands just made it worse.  She wanted to be independent of me, but didn't necessarily have the executive function skills to pull it off well, plus she is strongly a procrastinator.  It led to so many battles.  DH and I have always planned to send our kids to PS for high school (his strong preference, and I don't mind that plan either) unless it was truly not a good fit for an individual kid.   We put DD in school in 8th grade, and it was a huge turnaround in our relationship, and school turned out to be a great fit for her.  Despite being disorganized at times at home and not wanting to put in the work, she loved the structure of going to class, listening to a teacher teach a lesson, and having time to work in class that was only designated for doing classwork.  No distractions of fun things to do like at home.  She is an extrovert and despite not making tons of friends in her school in 8th grade, she liked being around a bunch of people all day and not just her obnoxious brothers.  ;-).   I don't know if she was "unhomeschoolable" for high school, but I think it would have been really tough, and we probably wouldn't have come out of it with the great relationship we have now.  BUT, she was very wiling to do work for public school teachers, which helped her in terms of being successful in school.  I think it would be so much harder if it turns out that the child isn't willing to do school work for anyone, whether it is mom, outsourced class, or a teacher in school.  If you can put her in school before high school, OP, I think it's a great time to do it, even if it's midyear.  You want to find out sooner rather than later if public school will produce a better result, or if it will just be more agony you can't control - the stakes are so much higher in high school because they will impact college options if she spends a semester failing a bunch of high school classes.

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

If you can put her in school before high school, OP, I think it's a great time to do it, even if it's midyear.  You want to find out sooner rather than later if public school will produce a better result, or if it will just be more agony you can't control - the stakes are so much higher in high school because they will impact college options if she spends a semester failing a bunch of high school classes.

This.

I would very matter of factly say that homeschooling is a two way street, and that the way things are going now, she isn't meeting you halfway.  Then inform her that it is your legal obligation to ensure that she gets an education, and since you can't do that given her behavior, that you will need to put her in school.  If she protests, tell her that you will consider homeschooling her on a week by week basis, if she comes up with an acceptable behavior and schooling plan with concrete objectives and then follows it to the letter.  Put it in writing.  Tell her that you will re-evaluate the plan each week and tweak it as needed.  You will want to listen to her to see if there is anything you can commit to as well to make things go better for her.  Do not nag her, or remind her of what she agreed to. 

If she doesn't meet her obligations, enroll her in school.  This is not a punishment, it is an actual natural consequence of not meeting you halfway.  

In order for this to work, you need to be absolutely resolved to sending her to school if it comes to that.  And by this working, I mean either getting your homeschool back on track OR enrolling her in school and having her education be (legally) their problem.

[ScoutTN]

Well, buy-in matters. If a child adamantly does not want to homeschool, the chances of homeschooling being a success academically or relationally are low. Sometimes a kid is just in a stage and that changes, sometimes he has turned a corner permanently. I have one of the latter.

My Ds is in a public charter school. He has ADHD (huge executive function deficits that he does not recognize and will not address or work on) and generally a poor work ethic. These challenges exist in every academic setting.

The biggest things for us are Ds’ oppositional attitude and opportunities at school.

He will not learn from or with me. He has a fierce desire for independence. School gives him teachers and authority figures who are not me or Dh. Win! We still deal with homework, but we are not in charge. I am only wearing the mom hat now. 
 

Ds loves football and is able to play for his school. 2-3 hr workout, 4-5x a week for about 16 weeks of the year. For $120. HUGE win! Ds also had other sports opportunities, social and emotional learning support, academic support, and other benefits at school. This extrovert is out of my house 8-11 hrs a day. Win!

There are MANY things that I dislike and a few that I really hate about his school. But every option has negatives and this is the best choice for him, for our family, for now.

Parenting is HARD and there are no formulas. 
 

Best wishes for finding a good path forward!

Edited November 10, 2022 by ScoutTN

[freesia]

I think you know there isn’t one reason or one solution. Parenting teens is an art not a science. I think you also know that the “promises” weren’t the result of the act of homeschooling, but an interplay of attachment, personality, discipline, circumstance and time. Some come to fruition in the long term, not the short term. Some may never through no fault of anyone. It’s not a formula. Some aspects when not seen may require introspection and a change in direction. 
 

I have one who only really thrives when I am part of his learning. I can’t do that with everything—but for many subjects, even as a senior, I sit with him. I’ve read science books to him and watch the pre-recorded lecture with him and sit while he does the problem set. I teach the calculus lesson ( often jus reading the text to him) and he does the problem set without me. He does not thrive working independently. When we did a number of outsourced classes last year I absolutely checked daily or several times a week to make sure things were being turned in and that he studied for tests. 
 

For my present 13 year old I read or teach her directly in all subjects. She does some reading in history and literature alone. Sometimes if I front load work with me and she has a lot of independent work, she gets anxious, so I split or work times into 2 or 3. 

And there are consequences if work isn’t done  

Anyway, I’m offering that up as a suggestion. I would make sure she is getting plenty of sleep, eating well ( my oldest wasn’t good at feeding himself) and getting social time ( my second needed more out of the house than we had—she said she was fine, but wasn’t.) depression would also explain what you are seeing. 
 

But I do think outside school is right for some children. ((Hugs))

[BlsdMama]

So I think the question needs to be reworded maybe? I’ve schooled *extreme* extroverts and a kid diagnosed with O.D.D., ADHD, and severe dyslexia… but with a lot of support. In the case of my extreme extroverts, I actually think they were served best by being at home, but I’m not an introvert so I could handle almost constant interaction. By high school & middle school, we had positive homeschool group experiences. In high school, we outsourced. 
    For our headstrong, “I hate all things academic” kid, we used the community college welding classes, paid for because Iowa does that.  Because of our homeschool program, I had access to Barton. And, thanks to Covid, I had a husband at home who said, “Look, your mom isn’t unreasonable and you are doing the work.”

Even then, last year was hella hard. I often think if he hasn’t been our fifth, I don’t know if we would have made it without tossing his butt in school. 
 

There’s just so many factors, but it really comes down to support, imo. 

[8filltheheart]

Maybe not an iron fist, but disciplined control with a school first and in main living space, definitely. My high schoolers work at the kitchen table, family room or back patio. I check their work as they finish each subject's assignment. (Finished, graded, corrected before they move on to the next subject....at least now that I have fewer students, but even when I was vastly outnumbered, my eyes were on what was finished even if grading might have to wait a while.)

Temptation is a very real thing. I learned very early on that if I didnt take on the responsibility to be constantly observing/overseeing/interacting that I was the one responsible for their slacking, daydreaming, poor work ethic bc I was putting them in a situation where I was expecting adult level self-discipline from children.

By 14 most of my kids havent actually required my supervision, but it doesn't matter bc I am physically present anyway.  My current 12 yod, she is going thr6major growth spurts and is tired a lot. If I didnt redirect her attention quite a bit, she'd doze off or day dream. Grading math problem by problem keeps her going. Reading outloud and stopping to discuss keeps her attentive. Whatever works.

[Roadrunner]

Compliance. I think in our house it mostly came down to compliance. If you have a kid who must do the opposite of what he is told, because he can't help himself, war of wills will eventually destroy both. That's unhomeschoolable kid to me. I have one of those. 

But beyond that there are many factors why homeschooling might be an unacceptable solution. 

[Farrar]

I'm with everyone who is saying it's a complex mix of factors.

In terms of success stories, I think you need to remember two things. First, there's massive variation in what you see among folks on the high school board. There's everything from students who were super academic to not at all. And everything from students who were in basic online programs to students who schooled themselves to parents who taught it all and everything in between. Honestly, it's hard to make generalizations that "it" works when "it" is all over the map. Second, it's a world of braggers. Yes, there are also the pleas for help, but there's a lot of best face forward stuff happening. I promise you - lots of people struggle, especially in middle and high school.

I've seen a lot of families who made it work and a lot who didn't. But I can tell you that families who didn't make it work aren't all in one mold either. I will say that I do see times where a parent needs to do the sorts of things that 8fillstheheart posted above. Be more hands on, more directed, and more involved. It's not a step back time in many ways. But I've also seen families where the kid is micromanaged in unhealthy ways. Or where the expectations are just on Pluto -- either too much or too little or entirely the wrong things. 

But that supposes that there is some perfect mix that makes it work. And I don't know that there is. I also know that there's no formula. And that one family can add one part red and one part blue and get purple while another family can concoct the same mix and get green. That's one of the things about education and growth. It's not linear or scientific all the time.

 

[Arcadia]

Both my kids want me as mom, and rather have others as teacher.  They are also introverts who crave being in a classroom environment. So we outsourced until we ran out of options and kids went into community college full time from 10th to 12th grade. 
 

The pandemic also made DS16 even more of a recluse than he already is. He is not ready to apply for college this year. He doesn’t want to go anywhere unless necessary. He would be taking a class on campus in January 2023 for the first time since March 2020. DS17 felt very lonely and was extremely happy to be back on community college campus. He was too excited to sleep for the first day of Fall academic quarter.
 

What has been great about community college classes is that they get good grades for English when they thought that their English is bad. They were comparing their work quality to my abilities which makes it seems as their work is subpar. So having classmates to compare with was a nice reality check. 

[Quarter Note]

Thank you, all.  Please know that I certainly do understand that there is no one size fits all answer, but this is a question that came up with a friend in real life a few months ago, who also has an unhomeschoolable daughter.  I've been pondering it ever since, and it all just came to a head this past weekend.

Watching my daughter has taught me how awfully judgmental I, as an off-the-charts introvert, have been.  "Needing to be around people" has always seemed to me like a whiny, immature, just-wanna-party, can't-handle-self-awareness attitude.  Extroverts really, truly need other people around?  That has been a slow shock wave realization to me over the past several months.  I've even self-righteously posted on this forum before that I was sure I was managing my extrovert's social needs with a few extracurricular activities that I signed her up for.  But watching her absolutely light up when she can interact with someone she is not blood-related to has shown me otherwise.

And that makes me sad, too.  What about all the mental energy I put into making this home a lovely, warm-hearted place where the kids would feel happy?

Add in hormones, a pandemic, possibly ADHD, lying about social media accounts, expectations that our kids would be the academic overachievers that my husband and I were, and my lovely Charlotte-Mason-wannabe world is crumbling.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Quarter Note
auto-correct was incorrect!

[Quarter Note]

On a light-hearted note, what I feel like is that my life should look like a Charlotte Mason living story along these lines:

 

Mother stared in disbelief.  Louisa [because aren't all thirteen-year-old Victorian girls named Louisa?] had angrily torn up the Latin homework she was supposed to scan in before it was due tomorrow and left all the little pieces at Mother's place at the table.  [This really happened.]  Calmly, Mother asked Nurse to take the children upstairs to the nursery so she could think through what to do while she sipped her afternoon tea.  [Clearly fictional.]  When Father came home, they first had a quiet, delicious dinner Cook had made and then sat in front of the crackling fire with all the time in the world to talk about what to do about Louisa.

The next morning, refreshed after a full night of sleep, Mother and Father sat impeccably dressed at breakfast, the table covered with a linen tablecloth and fresh flowers in a vase.  They had Nurse bring Louisa to them, where they calmly explained to her the dangers of a Malignant Self-Will.

Louisa's face showed horror as she realized what she had done.  "O, Mother, Father, I do so regret losing control and demonstrating an act of Malignant Self-Will!  I will learn the habits of Responsibility, Attention, and Cheerfulness right away now!"

Mother and Father smiled sweet smiles.  "We're glad you will now never again fall into such a dangerous trap, Louisa."  

And from then on, Mother, in her ever-loving watchful vigilance, only had to frown when she saw evidence that the children were considering an act of Malignant Self-Will, and they would immediately realize the oh-so-dangerous road they had been tempted to follow, and there was peace forevermore in that tastefully-elegant and always clutter-free home.

The end.

 

But, um, that's not how my life looks.  🤣

Edited November 10, 2022 by Quarter Note
more typos

[HomeAgain]

16 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

And that makes me sad, too.  What about all the mental energy I put into making this home a lovely, warm-hearted place where the kids would feel happy?

Changing needs doesn't mean your efforts are a waste.  It means your lovely, warm-hearted home becomes a safe base, a refuge and shelter. 

I am so glad I homeschooled my kids.  My 23yo is very glad he was homeschooled for elementary/jr. high.  He has turned into a great person and we have a great relationship. My youngest is excited to share about his day every single time he comes home.  He's happy that we support his fledgling independence and not go Beverly Goldberg on him.  😄 Home will always be their base, no matter what they end up doing in life.

[HomeAgain]

If it makes you feel better @Quarter Note, yesterday's habit training looked more like this in our house:

Cecil (because all Victorian boys are named Cecil) absentmindedly left the table after snack, his nose buried in a twaddle-filled story about Minecraft.  Mother took one look at his place setting and called him back.  "Cecil, dear, you will invite the mice and woodland creatures into the home and nobody wants to sit down and look at a placemat covered with two glasses, a burrito wrapper, and crumbs.  Kindly take care of this before I call Mrs. PiggleWiggle and haul you down to her farm to be straightened out."

Cecil complied, and mother stopped him again.

"My child.  Forget about a general habit.  Please work on this single habit, developing the need to look at your own placemat before wasting my time and calling you back every day.  Right now your habit is to get up and leave a trail in your wake, from the door to the bed.  Someone is always after you.  Take a minute and LOOK at your table before I do."

Today, a sign appeared.  Bright red border, big eyes in the word LOOK right in front of his spot at the table.

It did not matter.  Five minutes after he got up to finish the rest of his morning tasks, Mother found the remnants of breakfast still in his spot.  The habit of relying on someone else to see what needs to be done has been ingrained so well that it is a hard hill to climb to change it.

[Quarter Note]

@HomeAgain, I love it!🤣  Thanks for understanding!

[Arcadia]

1) My late mom is an introvert but she was much happier when she was working than when she was a SAHM.  My teens who are introverts like my husband needed brick and mortar classes 3 days (2 full days and one morning) a week to be happy. When DS17 started dual enrollment, he was on campus from Monday to Thursday and happy.  So even people who test as introverts on Myer Briggs or equivalent personality tests might still crave social interactions. I am an extrovert, the kind that makes friends while lining up to check in luggage at the airports.

2) as for providing a warm loving home, I always think of home as a secure base I can return to after “spreading my wings” all day. Home is where my kids would show their truest personality because they don’t need to put on their best manners. 
 

3) I am an academic underperformer. I slept in classes even in college. My husband is the studious overachiever. My kids are more studious than me but less studious than my husband 😉 They obviously never slept in any of their classes. There were outsourced classes that were not as great choices for my kids. It was a learning experience none the less. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Arcadia
Weird autocorrect

[Nm.]

My husband and his sister both regret being homeschooled even though they did graduate from college.  My husband wishes he would have known about other careers and had more scholarship opportunities.  I don’t know if we will or not, it’s his final decision.  I am hoping heart of Dakota will get them through highschool.  I think the daily layout might work for mine.  It’s also rigorous enough for my dh.  We also plan to use dual enrollment at some point.

I also don’t know what role your husband plays.  Here he is the principal and if they don’t do work for me, they must finish when he’s home.  He’s not nearly as lenient as I am so it tends to get done.  I try to be the organizer and supporter, but at the end of the day it’s between them and Dad.  For my ADHD child it’s the only thing that has worked.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Lovinglife123

[freesia]

13 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Most moms that I’ve seen successfully homeschool ALL their kids through high-school didn’t do it for academic reasons.  Most do not go to college.  Many do the bare minimum and start careers sooner.

And I have the exact opposite experience. All but two of the children in families that homeschool high school go on to college. One of those children is nuerodivergent and the other joined his dad’s landscaping company. Both had college prep high school programs. I think that some of this type of thing is geographical. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

33 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Most moms that I’ve seen -in real life- who successfully homeschool ALL their kids through high-school didn’t do it for academic reasons.  Most do not go to college.  Many do the bare minimum and start careers sooner.

my husband and his sister both regret being homeschooled even though they did graduate from college.  My husband wishes he would have known about other careers and had more scholarship opportunities.  I don’t know if we will or not, it’s his final decision.  I am hoping heart of Dakota will get them through highschool.  I think the daily layout might work for mine.  It’s also rigorous enough for my dh.  We also plan to use dual enrollment at some point.

I also don’t know what role your husband plays.  Here he is the principal and if they don’t do work for me, they must finish when he’s home.  He’s not nearly as lenient as I am so it tends to get done.  I try to be the organizer and supporter, but at the end of the day it’s between them and Dad.  For my ADHD child it’s the only thing that has worked.

I am sure that is highly regional.  And perhaps reflects the people you are surrounded by even within that region.  All people I know who homeschooled their kids through high school (including me) have kids who were very successful in college.  None of them did the bare minimum.  No one was shielded from knowing about all the possible career opportunities.  Oh - and I have two kids with diagnosed ADHD. 

[Nm.]

Thank you ladies, that is why I said in real life meaning here where I am.  I am SO glad it is possible to do both!!!!!! Homeschool and have academics in highschool.

the other thing I had to do for my ADHD kiddo was remove nearly all screens.  His work has to be 100% offline almost all the time. He doesn’t have his own phone or tablet.  It’s a little extreme, but so normal for us that I forget it’s a major intervention we had to do.  He was an unschoolable child.  Hoping we can continue to make it work. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lovinglife123

[Jean in Newcastle]

To answer the OP's question - I believe that kids can become "unteachable" (in any school setting) if they don't have the humility to submit themselves to teaching.  Even the best teaching with all the bells and whistles. 

I believe that there are workarounds for most personality types, needs and desires.  Some times that workaround does include brick and mortar school in some fashion.  My extrovert was able to spend a lot more time volunteering and being with friends because we homeschooled.  But (and I've said this in other threads) both my kids started to be involved in the decision to homeschool once we hit middle school.  Homeschooling high school was their decision.  That didn't mean all days of rainbows and puppies and kitties.  But while getting an education was not their choice (by state law as well as our decision as parents), how we went about it did need buy in.  (BTW - there are lots of kids in public school who are forced to go there and it's not their choice.  And some of them drop out.) 

[ScoutTN]

56 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am sure that is highly regional.  And perhaps reflects the people you are surrounded by even within that region.  All people I know who homeschooled their kids through high school (including me) have kids who were very successful in college.  None of them did the bare minimum.  No one was shielded from knowing about all the possible career opportunities.  Oh - and I have two kids with diagnosed ADHD. 

Yes, this.

We know literally hundreds of current or former homeschooled high schoolers. Only a handful have not had a college prep curriculum. 
 

Most have gone to college. Some have chosen to go directly into the workforce (or military) or gotten just a two year degree. Most are successful in their work. 

 

[ScoutTN]

59 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

To answer the OP's question - I believe that kids can become "unteachable" (in any school setting) if they don't have the humility to submit themselves to teaching.  Even the best teaching with all the bells and whistles. 

This. 

[Guest]

@Quarter Note, I send you huge hugs across the internet. I don’t have any answers for you, as things have often been very challenging in our home.

I do want to suggest that if there is a question of ADHD lingering in the air, that you have the child evaluated ASAP (knowing what I know now, in hindsight), even before sending them to brick and mortar school. The ADHD will not disappear with school-structure, and whether or not she goes to school, knowing about her strengths and weaknesses can really help you (and / or her teachers) to give her the support she needs.

 

[Doodlebug]

You have already received some excellent replies.

I thought I would add that there is an idealism crash that can happen in homeschooling -- and it is a good thing, imo.  I had one child for whom I read all the books and did all the things.  And around the age of 9, he became a lot less interested and compliant when it came to my ideals.  This was one of those first stages where the dynamic of control needed to shift, and it was deeply unsettling on a personal level.  It revealed I was far more invested in the positive outcome of homeschooling, something I would've outright denied at the time, than was good for the relationship I had with DS.

After two years in a private school, DS wished to return to homeschooling and I was more than ready.  Homeschoolers on this very board, as well as SWB's Rethinking School, were encouraging to me to teach the student in front of me.  This began an entirely new and refreshing season of our homeschool journey.  

Sharing this because during my crash, I was sure there was a problem with DS.  HE was unteachable.  HE was unhomeschoolable.  In hindsight, there was a dynamic at play which made me the worst teacher for him.  When I was ready to learn about him, and approach his education with those learned things in mind, homeschooling was an entirely different experience.  But it all started with recognizing "this isn't working" and making a plan for me to catch my breath.  I would've told you it was the end of homeschooling at the time.  But that would've been my anxiety talking -- this now level headed older mom now looks back and says "It was the right decision at that time" and knows that every season must be evaluated this way, with an open mind and heart!

  

Edited November 10, 2022 by Doodlebug

[Eos]

Gentle hugs to you OP.  I found 12/13 to be the very hardest age to homeschool.  Adding to all the wisdom above, the internet is the factor that none of us can control for.  All those Charlotte Mason scenarios melt in the face of modern reality when we are (somewhat necessarily) immersed in a product that is designed to addict. You have not failed.

Requiring physical work and time outside for this age helped mine.  

[8filltheheart]

17 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Most moms that I’ve seen -in real life- who successfully homeschool ALL their kids through high-school didn’t do it for academic reasons.  Most do not go to college.  Many do the bare minimum and start careers sooner.

Over my almost 3 decades of homeschooling I have come to realize that homeschoolers do not fit in any narrow stereotype. You'll find just as wide a range of outcomes as the general population. 

Personally, among my friend groups by far most kids go to college (bc academically oriented are the families I tend to have more in common with). 

[Quarter Note]

Thank you to everyone.  It's been so hard to start out homeschooling as the most enthusiastic homeschool cheerleader in town and then to feel that all my dreams and ideals have come crashing down.   That's one reason why I haven't posted much lately - how can I show my "face" here when I'm such a homeschooling failure?

@WTM, just wanted to let you know that we've already started the process of getting her evaluated for the ADHD, but, of course, it takes months to get in.  I think you and I have similarly challenging kids!

@Doodlebug, if I could give your post a hundred "likes", I would.  You hit the nail on the head with your words about the idealism crash.

 

3 hours ago, Eos said:

Adding to all the wisdom above, the internet is the factor that none of us can control for.  All those Charlotte Mason scenarios melt in the face of modern reality when we are (somewhat necessarily) immersed in a product that is designed to addict. You have not failed.

Eos, these words should be emblazoned on the front of every new homeschooling book.  My husband and I were 100% thoughtful and deliberate about trying to introduce our kids to the internet in a very limited, controlled way, but we lost control almost immediately.  I now call Nitrotype my kids' gateway drug.

To everyone:  I really, really appreciate all the wisdom shared on this thread.  You have all lightened my heart and my husband's heart.  Our "Louisa" and our "Cecil" are both really great kids, despite their challenges.  We'll pivot our education strategies for what's best for them.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Quarter Note
typo

[HomeAgain]

28 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

 

Eos, these words should be emblazoned on the front of every new homeschooling book.  My husband and I were 100% thoughtful and deliberate about trying to introduce our kids to the internet in a very limited, controlled way, but we lost control almost immediately.  I now call Nitrotype my kids' gateway drug.

To everyone:  I really, really appreciate all the wisdom shared on this thread.  You have all lightened my heart and my husband's heart.  Our "Louisa" and our "Cecil" are both really great kids, despite their challenges.  We'll pivot our education strategies for what's best for them.

I really think we need a book titled:
Charlotte Mason in the 21st Century - Practical Stories For Every Home Teacher

Inside it can be filled with dozens of Cecils and Louisas, going through the motions of a "good" CM education and what it really looks like in a family right now.  🤣 Take a little of the shine off the idealism and more set in reality.

[Quarter Note]

3 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I really think we need a book titled:
Charlotte Mason in the 21st Century - Practical Stories For Every Home Teacher

Inside it can be filled with dozens of Cecils and Louisas, going through the motions of a "good" CM education and what it really looks like in a family right now.  🤣 Take a little of the shine off the idealism and more set in reality.

Yes!  You and I could write the modern day living stories. At least it would keep the moms chuckling!

[Quarter Note]

By the way, @HomeAgain, my husband and I are now privately, good-naturedly referring to our son as Cecil.  He does exactly the same thing that yours does.  I think my next living story will be on the CM mom dealing with Halloween candy wrappers all over the house!

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I have a 12 year old who is not able to be homeschooled. He’s on the autism spectrum coupled with anxiety and truly needs a small, highly regimented classroom with someone who is not Mom. I also can’t keep a rigid enough schedule for him.  He is thriving and consistently is on the high academic honor roll.  He also has several good friends.  I know perfectly well he’d never do schoolwork for me and just needs me to be Mom.

my parents homeschooled all my siblings and I through high school.  It was academically sound and a beautiful Charlotte Mason education, but several of my siblings truly would have been better off in public school.    They needed mom to be just mom, not teacher.  And at least two of those siblings don’t talk to her anymore and one more is low contact.  I believe(as does my mom) that had she put them in public school it likely would have saved their relationship.

[Quarter Note]

Thank you for sharing, @Mrs Tiggywinkle Again.  The situation that your siblings are in is one that I want to avoid.  I'm sure your mom was very sincere about wanting to give all of you kids the best education she could.  I wish your siblings and your mom emotional healing and reconciliation.  

[Nm.]

“Eos, these words should be emblazoned on the front of every new homeschooling book.  My husband and I were 100% thoughtful and deliberate about trying to introduce our kids to the internet in a very limited, controlled way, but we lost control almost immediately.  I now call Nitrotype my kids' gateway drug.”

That’s interesting!! I was very careful too, and thought I had it already pretty limited.  I was referred this book and it was eye opening and explained it so well.

[Doodlebug]

I’m glad my experience was helpful!@Quarter Note 

I had ds evaluated during the crash, but was uncomfortable trusting too much in the recommendations — there were a variety of factors that contributed to my hesitation.

What I decided to do was read up on adhd brains and teaching strategies, specifically.  I don’t think my ds would qualify as adhd now (16) but those teaching strategies were fresh air for both of us.  Special needs approaches to education are incredibly rich and disabused me of formal ed priorities and expectations, like student independence.  I began working math with ds problem by problem and did this from the age of 11-13/14!  It was a game changer for learning and relationship!

[Malam]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:58 AM, Miss Tick said:

brick and mortar high school might have served then better in some ways.

In which ways might b&m high school might have served them?

[Not_a_Number]

I don't think my kids are exactly unhomeschoolable, but they are very, very hard to homeschool. We've had to work extremely hard to keep it going. (They are also highly gifted and like being homeschooled, and DD10 was absolutely adamant that she didn't want to go to school, so I didn't have a ton of choice.) 

For us, the fact that they are very intense and very sensitive children has really gotten in the way. I think it was @fairfarmhand who once described how her daughter would say she would make 'mean' Xs, and that's definitely how things can go with my kids. It has taken us a whole lot of work to get to a place where homeschooling is working. 

For us, the absolutely essential thing has been removing the power struggles. Pretty much all power struggles. I have taken it to heart that however much I wish my kids would treat me as an omnipotent authority (the way they might a teacher at school), they never will. They need me to be mom. That means I have to give up all hope of MAKING them do things. Rather, they need to feel like I'm on their side and that we're on a journey together. 

We've also made a number of substantial tweaks that have increased my authority locally. I can talk about that if that'd be helpful, because it was also key. 

[Not_a_Number]

On 11/9/2022 at 7:22 AM, EKS said:

This.

I would very matter of factly say that homeschooling is a two way street, and that the way things are going now, she isn't meeting you halfway.  Then inform her that it is your legal obligation to ensure that she gets an education, and since you can't do that given her behavior, that you will need to put her in school.  If she protests, tell her that you will consider homeschooling her on a week by week basis, if she comes up with an acceptable behavior and schooling plan with concrete objectives and then follows it to the letter.  Put it in writing.  Tell her that you will re-evaluate the plan each week and tweak it as needed.  You will want to listen to her to see if there is anything you can commit to as well to make things go better for her.  Do not nag her, or remind her of what she agreed to. 

If she doesn't meet her obligations, enroll her in school.  This is not a punishment, it is an actual natural consequence of not meeting you halfway.  

In order for this to work, you need to be absolutely resolved to sending her to school if it comes to that.  And by this working, I mean either getting your homeschool back on track OR enrolling her in school and having her education be (legally) their problem.

I'm sure this would have worked for some kids. I kind of tried to do this, and it made my kiddo feel resentful and unmotivated. She felt that I was pressuring her and it really affected her ability to do anything at all. (As I said, I have intense kids who really don't do well with feeling like someone is trying to control them.) 

I could have gone through with putting her in school, but this would have seriously damaged our relationship. I wanted to tear my hair out when I realized this, frankly, because I had already TOLD her she was going to school... and then I could see from her reaction that the fallout would be too big to manage. And it made me feel absolutely stuck -- what was I going to do when I couldn't even send her to school without upsetting her?? 

We wound up unschooling for almost a year to get a reset. She didn't learn much academic stuff in that year, but she sure learned a LOT about emotional regulation and management and we did a TON of work on our relationship. 

This is all to say that putting a kid in school against their will could absolutely backfire. I can see it helping if a kid is already interested. But I wouldn't use it as a consequence. Especially with a stubborn, resentful kid, it could poison a kid's schooling experience. 

[Not_a_Number]

OP, you have all my sympathy, by the way. I remember feeling just like you are feeling a year ago. We all get SO invested in this journey. Probably too invested. It's so hard to feel like it's going badly. 

[Quarter Note]

Had a lightbulb moment yesterday after a good conversation with my daughter:

My kids have two loving parents, abundant art and craft supplies, Classical music on the DVD player, Memoria Press art prints taped to the walls, plenty of outdoor time, beautifully illustrated editions of the all the children's classic books... you get the idea.  That environment would have put me in bliss when I was a kid.  But what my daughter wants is...

... a "frenemy".  She wants someone to crush in competition.  She wants a Gilbert to her Anne.  (Don't take that analogy too far.)

The very soul-withering environment that public school was for me (the crowds, the time-wasting assemblies, the competition, the wondering where to sit in the cafeteria), that I vowed to never make my own children endure, is the very environment in which this kid would thrive.  The online classes and the extracurriculars are not enough.  She is eight assignments behind and doesn't care.

I have huge problems with the low academic expectations of public school, but that is where this kid needs to be.  

[ScoutTN]

@Quarter Note 

Is your ps really poor? Or just average? Some kids thrive in school and rise to the top, both in academics and in leadership. 
Some kids think they will like it so much more than homeschooling, then don’t. Either way, at 8th grade, it may be worth a try? Especially before high school, when the grades matter. 

[Quarter Note]

11 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

@Quarter Note 

Is your ps really poor? Or just average? Some kids thrive in school and rise to the top, both in academics and in leadership. 
Some kids think they will like it so much more than homeschooling, then don’t. Either way, at 8th grade, it may be worth a try? Especially before high school, when the grades matter. 

Oh, here's where everyone is going to roll their eyes at me. 😉  I live in the "best school district in the state", the reports say.   But I also hear the stories from the PS moms:  "Literature class" has turned into "technical reports" class, teachers are burned out, some are... ahem... bending the rules in their classrooms, etc.  I also hear about the mental health challenges (and the sad situations that result) because kids are pressured to succeed as their parents did.  (I live in a town of high achievers.) The public school system is a pressure cooker.    

But, I think it is probably exactly where she needs to be.  Current plan is to enroll her at the start of the new year.  At least at home, she'll get the attitude that learning is just plain fun for its own sake.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by Quarter Note
clarification

[EKS]

12 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn't use it as a consequence.

I would argue that you don't use consequences.  They simply are.

That said, there might be more or different options from what I listed above.  But when homeschooling in whatever form doesn't work, and you've run out of options, the only option becomes school.  And that's the consequence.

Edited November 15, 2022 by EKS

[Clemsondana]

In my world, I think that there are kids like your daughter.  We are really blessed that 15 or more years ago some moms got busy, setting up co--ops and social/support groups and competition groups.  Our kids do quiz bowl and science bowl and science olympiad and have sports teams for some sports (and state law now says that they can play on their zoned school team so they can do that for others) and and a concert band.  This support likely led to more homeschoolers, and now there are also paid classes (like martial arts) during the day for homeschoolers for those who don't want to do after school  Umbrella schools are starting to invite homeschoolers to participate in their bands, choirs, and school plays..  Not everybody does all of this, obviously, but if kids/families choose they can have frenemys, girl-boy drama, and any other teen nonsense.  Some families still go to school.  Some are more home-based and interact less with this. Some families do different things with different kids.  But, these options really help some kids.  I can't really imagine what our life would be like without some of these things and the close relationships that develop when you load a bunch of kids into vans to travel to regional and, occasionally when we're lucky, national competitions.  

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, EKS said:

I would argue that you don't use consequences.  They simply are.

That said, there might be more or different options from what I listed above.  But when homeschooling in whatever form doesn't work, and you've run out of options, the only option becomes school.  And that's the consequence.

I guess I can imagine using that as a "I can't teach you anymore, so we have to do something else" kind of thing, but I know that my kids respond badly to things that they feel like I'm trying to use to change their behavior. They are very pressure-averse. 

For that to work for me, I'd have to make it very clear that the issue isn't them, it's that I can't deal anymore. It's kind of subtle.