What did your kids think about being homeschooled after being done?

[Jean in Newcastle]

To go back to the big picture:

 I both:

took each year as it came and made a decision on whether to continue to homeschool on a yearly basis 

and

I planned a broad homeschool trajectory  for all 12 years. 
 

The first, allowed all of to assess and reevaluate and tweak at least yearly if not more. And allowed my kids to truly be involved in the decisions especially in the older grades. 
 

The second allowed me to cover what I wanted to cover even as we did tweak things. 

[Clemsondana]

There are also different friendship needs.  For one of my kids, the time spent in practices (sports and academic competition) and the associated social time (everybody works a fundraiser and then eats together) is plenty of social time.  Admittedly, it's hours each week, but it's 'working social' not 'chatting social'.  Within these groups, there are kids who chat or text daily.  When I mention it to kid, the response is 'What could they possibly have to talk about for hours a day?'.  Kid is definitely an internal processor and doesn't like to ponder aloud, as teens often do.  

My other kid also has the activity-based friends, but texts with them all the time and is always game for a sleepover or trip to the pool or anything else social.  I've debated whether this kid would be better off in school just because of the sheer number of hours with other kids and the increased likelihood of casual after-school hangouts with nearby kids.  But, kid doesn't want to give up the other friends (we've been in the same co-op since older was in K, and both kids have friends that they've known for 8 years) and activities.  And there is the knowledge that kid would have to give up something - you can't fit this many extracurriculars into the afternoons.  

I can't imagine what it's like being somewhere without options.  Here, we have the benefit of numerous co-ops, homeschool sports teams, more than one martial arts school that offers homeschool classes (at ours, the instructor says that it's his favorite group, and they've built a fantastic community), a few former homeschool moms who have continued to direct the academic competition groups that they started for their own kids, and a public school system that is pretty easy to work with for extracurriculars - I know kids on teams at 3 different high schools in our county.  I know many families that give their kids the choice and a lot of them choose to stay home, although youngest kids seem more likely to go to school because they don't want to be home alone.  

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I've looked at it as how many environments dd can feel she can belong in, know how to operate in, empathise with(?) or something like that. 

That makes sense.

But some of this is inbuilt.

I think it's easy to look at personality and call it nurture.

I spend a LOT of time with children, and I just don't feel I could ever look at a particular child and their behaviour and KNOW for sure that the parents 'made them that way', kwim? Other than in clear cut cases of abuse and maltreatment.

Everything is interaction between the environment and the temperament/personality/Self. You only have (limited) control over the environment.

Children are not infinitely malleable. You can provide the best environment within your capability and still have a 'weird' aka different to the norm kid, who may not ever experience smooth belonging and operating over multiple environments.

 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

That makes sense.

But some of this is inbuilt.

I think it's easy to look at personality and call it nurture.

Sure. That's how I taught dd to do and be things I can't do or be. Her ability potential is more like my brother's than mine. And, of course, sometimes teaching your kids isn't really teaching at all, it's staying out the the way so you don't ruin a good thing that'll work better without you.

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, pinball said:

Oh, I do…but misrepresenting a beneficial organization that you do not agree with on a message board is not the place for using hyperbole.

You either don’t know or don’t care what LLL stands for and supports, but that didn’t stop you from disparaging them.

I’d rather be pedantic and ignorant about literary devices than badmouth LLL which has helped millions of babies, moms, and families in the decades it has been around. 

 

I have to say, much as I love Quill, I agree with people quitting the lazy stereotypes around LLL. Individual experiences are one thing, and some people do have negative experiences; misrepresenting breast feeding counsellors and support more generally is another.

Of course, I am a crazy mom who breastfed dd2 till close to five.

Anyway, off topic except to say that dd is my most 'successful' so maybe my extreme nurturing was good after all! Maybe I cured her through my  extended breastfeeding from the curse of the family weirdness! (I didn't, she's still weird, just passes better than the rest of us).

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Sure. That's how I taught dd to do and be things I can't do or be. Her ability potential is more like my brother's than mine. And, of course, sometimes teaching your kids isn't really teaching at all, it's staying out the the way so you don't ruin a good thing that'll work better without you.

Right.

But if your child's potential is such that they are always going to find operating in multiple environments challenging in various ways, despite your nurture, it might feel quite horrid to have another parent come along and not only judge your child as 'weird', but judge your parenting as deficient.

I might even go so far as to call that ableist thinking.

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have to say, much as I love Quill, I agree with people quitting the lazy stereotypes around LLL. Individual experiences are one thing, and some people do have negative experiences; misrepresenting breast feeding counsellors and support more generally is another.

Of course, I am a crazy mom who breastfed dd2 till close to five.

Anyway, off topic except to say that dd is my most 'successful' so maybe my extreme nurturing was good after all! Maybe I cured her through my  extended breastfeeding from the curse of the family weirdness! (I didn't, she's still weird, just passes better than the rest of us).

Lol, the one I breastfed the longest (2 1/2 years) is also my one who is the most socially adept. Let’s start a new stereotype!

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have to say, much as I love Quill, I agree with people quitting the lazy stereotypes around LLL. Individual experiences are one thing, and some people do have negative experiences; misrepresenting breast feeding counsellors and support more generally is another.

Of course, I am a crazy mom who breastfed dd2 till close to five.

Anyway, off topic except to say that dd is my most 'successful' so maybe my extreme nurturing was good after all! Maybe I cured her through my  extended breastfeeding from the curse of the family weirdness! (I didn't, she's still weird, just passes better than the rest of us).

I love you back. I was not merely quoting a stereotype, though. I was speaking from lived experience at the time. Let’s not forget that stereotypes often arise from truth. 
 

I had a lactation consultants; she rescued me from nursing hell. I will never cease in my gratitude to that lady. However, there were more fanatical bf’ers who hurt the cause more then helped. 

[fairfarmhand]

My kids are 14, 17, 20, and 24 almost 25. So I'm on the almost all grown kids end of things.

 

ALL of them think that homeschooling served them well. They do admit that it was not perfect, there were things they wished I'd handled differently, but overall they are glad of it, and have told me so, unsolicited. 

My 2 oldest say they will homeschool their kids, not because they think it's the greatest thing ever, but because they do not care for the alternatives. 

My younger 2 say they will not get married and have kids. (who knows?) 

On the topic of unhappy kids. My Oldest was quite unhappy during middle and high school. She was determined that her unhappiness would be cured by attending school. It was not an option for us for various reasons that I will not go into on a public board. We heard her out as much as possible, and she still had to be disappointed that she did not get her way. It was a long couple of years, but by the time she was 16-17 she really began to enjoy being home. She loved that she could work odd hours when her schooled friends could not. She loved being able to set her own pace and pursue hobbies and extracurriculars. Shes a gifted student and could easily complete challenging work in much less time than she would have been able to in a regular classroom, and homeschooling gave her the ability to use that extra time to do fun things, work extra hours, and enjoy extra curriculars. Being able to drive a car and make her own plans was the best thing for her.

MY other kids have never yearned to attend school.

***I teach my kids until grade 8 and then they use our county virtual school through high school along with DE.

[Melissa Louise]

18 minutes ago, Quill said:

I love you back. I was not merely quoting a stereotype, though. I was speaking from lived experience at the time. Let’s not forget that stereotypes often arise from truth. 
 

I had a lactation consultants; she rescued me from nursing hell. I will never cease in my gratitude to that lady. However, there were more fanatical bf’ers who hurt the cause more then helped. 

I don't know what you mean by fanatical, but the stereotypes are hurtful, as someone who devoted five plus years to providing the best support I could (as did every other b/f counsellor I know) to other moms, free of charge.

Nothing' 'fanatical', just knew how hard it was at the beginning with dd and wanted to support others. 

I'm sorry you personally had some unhelpful experiences; I doubt that every counsellor in  LLL is a 'fanatic'.

There is a lot of judgement in this thread for out of the norm!!

Happy to leave it there. It is a bit off topic 🙂

Edited October 12, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[fairfarmhand]

WRT to "difficult" kids...

Yeah, some kids are harder than others. When you have a hard kid, it's SO important to recognize that the traits that make them more challenging to parent may likely serve them well as adults. And parents must remind themselves of these facts often. 

I call my hard kid the intense one. Because what makes her harder is the intensity of emotions, energy, opinions, etc. 

[Clarita]

3 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yeah, some kids are harder than others. When you have a hard kid, it's SO important to recognize that the traits that make them more challenging to parent may likely serve them well as adults. And parents must remind themselves of these facts often. 

I'm lucky to have my MIL remind me that the challenging traits of my son can one day turn into my husband. (I do think my husband is a great man so it works.)

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

WRT to "difficult" kids...

Yeah, some kids are harder than others. When you have a hard kid, it's SO important to recognize that the traits that make them more challenging to parent may likely serve them well as adults. And parents must remind themselves of these facts often. 

I call my hard kid the intense one. Because what makes her harder is the intensity of emotions, energy, opinions, etc. 

Mm. I try to keep in mind that unless someone is actually attacking me, my reaction to intensity or enthusiasm is more about my own cowardice than them.

This said as someone who was accused of intimidating her own father in her enthusiasm about yogurt, of all things. Who knows why I was feeling that enthusiastic about yogurt that day, but my enthusiasm really doesn't prevent grown men from having their own opinions about yogurt, even if they tell me it does.

[Frances]

50 minutes ago, Quill said:

I had a lactation consultants; she rescued me from nursing hell. I will never cease in my gratitude to that lady. However, there were more fanatical bf’ers who hurt the cause more then helped. 

Exactly my experience as well. 

[Terabith]

One of the reasons we stopped homeschooling my kids was because I couldn’t meet their social needs.  They aren’t raging extroverts; my youngest is actually an extreme introvert.  But they both really need regular contact with a consistent group of people.  When they were really little, I could meet their needs by taking them to the playground.  Anyone in the same general age range could be a friend.  We did activities, but they were pretty sporadic.  Classical Conversations was the only co-op in town, and there was no way it worked for our family as they got older.  I just couldn’t get homeschoolers to show up consistently to anything.  And they really wanted to have friends, and to talk to the same people a few times a week, and I just couldn’t make it happen.  Even in school, they don’t really get together outside of school with anyone.  But they chat with people and are friendly with them and it serves their social needs. Even my extreme introvert kid, who was in lockdown for 18 months with covid, said that she’s so much happier and healthier in school.  My not an introvert but not really an extrovert kid didn’t speak to anyone outside of the family for two years because of the lockdown.  I know everyone says socialization is such a 90’s thing to worry about for homeschooling, but it was a huge problem for us.  We had other issues with homeschooling, mostly that being the person to impose all the academic demands was really damaging my relationship with my kids, and I wanted to be a good mom more than I wanted to give them the superior education I absolutely could have provided at home.  But socialization was huge for us, too.  It’s a legitimate need.  

[Terabith]

My experience with lactation consultants honestly scared me.  My mother nursed my sister and myself for more than 2 years each, in the 70’s and early 80’s, when there was NO support.  I was gung ho, 100%, totally committed to breastfeeding.  I took classes before they were born.  I loved La Leche League.  And then my oldest was born and seemed to latch fine but COULD NOT STAY AWAKE when put to the breast.  I pinched them, stripped them to a diaper, put cold soda cans on their back, flicked them.  I tortured my newborn and I could not get them to stay awake long enough to take in any amount of nursing.  Consultant kept telling me under no circumstances to give a bottle.  They were losing weight at an alarming rate, and the fewer calories they took in, the less energy they had to stay awake to nurse.  Their latch was fine.  Just couldn’t stay awake.  
 

It was finally a medical crisis, and I pumped and fed, but then I was spending 100% of the time either breastfeeding or pumping.  My boobs were a J; nursing required two hands to keep baby from suffocating.  I finally gave up and exclusively pumped.  
 

Younger daughter nursed till she was almost four.  She was my definitely autistic one, but she was easy to nurse.  

[Melissa Louise]

It's a legitimate need and not all schooled children get it in school. 

 

[Terabith]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

It's a legitimate need and not all schooled children get it in school. 

 

Right.  But I was failing to meet it at home.  Trying school seemed like the logical next step.  

[Melissa Louise]

Honestly, I wish school was a social utopia. Life would be so much easier for that cohort of lonely schooled kids who have no option but to endure.

I wish I went to work every day and saw a population of kids with wonderful social skills. That would make my life easier! 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Right.  But I was failing to meet it at home.  Trying school seemed like the logical next step.  

Of course.

I did the same with dd2. 

But it's only about fit, not the superiority of one over the other. 

I think people who had neutral or good experiences of being schooled themselves may not understand the extent to which it can be a traumatic place for some. 

 

[Terabith]

It’s far from a utopia, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to try if homeschooling isn’t meeting a kid’s needs.  There are loads of things wrong with schools.  I think early elementary is the time where expectations and developmental needs are most out of whack.  But I think it’s just as dumb to say “homeschooling is always the answer” as it is to say “brick and mortar school is always the answer.”  There are pluses and minuses to everything, and I think it makes sense to look at the child and the family and the school in front of you and keep trying things if what you’re doing isn’t working.  If school hadn’t met their needs, we would have tried something else.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

It was finally a medical crisis,

Something similar happened to me. My child was dx’d with Failure to Thrive and I was bombarded with conflicting advice. I was eventually like, “F this, my kid is *hungry*!” Popped a bottle in the mouth and kiddo begun to thrive. I still nursed PT until age one. There was no dreaded “nipple confusion”, no breast refusal at all. Sometimes it was a bottle, sometimes it was a boob. And it was fine like that an my scrawny runt gained weight and fat like a normal baby.

[pinball]

The funny thing is the whole LLL thing started bc someone asserted that it was as if LLL was promoting that the baby never have a moment of discomfort:

 

 

“I think our society has, in some ways, swung from a philosophy where what kids desired didn’t matter at all (like, say, in the 1930s and 40s) to acting like every kid must never be unhappy or uncomfortable for a second. It’s like when my oldest kids were babies and the La Lèche League was militaristic about breastfeeding. It wasn’t enough to simply feed your child from the breast instead of bottles; you had to bf *exclusively*, spurn all artificial n!pples, stick a boob in every time they cried for any reason. Why was this promoted? It seemed like the goal was for the baby to never have a moment’s discomfort.”

 

 

 

And my answer should have been:

Yes, a BABY…a B.A.B.Y. should never have a moment’s discomfort.

Yes, baby is sad…try nursing.

yes, baby is lonely…try nursing

certainly YES! if a baby is hungry, try nursing!

baby is hurt! Yes, yes, yes! Try nursing!

Edited October 13, 2022 by pinball
Ending quotation mark on quote

[teachermom2834]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Something similar happened to me. My child was dx’d with Failure to Thrive and I was bombarded with conflicting advice. I was eventually like, “F this, my kid is *hungry*!” Popped a bottle in the mouth and kiddo begun to thrive. I still nursed PT until age one. There was no dreaded “nipple confusion”, no breast refusal at all. Sometimes it was a bottle, sometimes it was a boob. And it was fine like that an my scrawny runt gained weight and fat like a normal baby.

Same thing with my boys. Still nursed but they needed some formula in the beginning. The lactation consultants insisted they did not but the pediatrician came in (big proponent of breastfeeding btw) and said give this baby a bottle.

I still nursed them a year but it was such common sense in the beginning to feed them something when they were failing to thrive. Yet so much drama from the lactation consultants. My milk came in late or my boys just needed more than some babies in the early days or something? But I could never hate on formula because it made my boys so healthy and happy and honestly allowed me keep breastfeeding. But man it made those lactation consultants so upset it was really unpleasant. 

[rebcoola]

All 3 of mine have had some bottles and still mostly breastfed just fine no nipple confusion.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Mm. I try to keep in mind that unless someone is actually attacking me, my reaction to intensity or enthusiasm is more about my own cowardice than them.

 

So wise

[Not_a_Number]

15 hours ago, wendyroo said:

What a tolerant, inclusive sentiment. 🙄

"Screw different cultural and parenting goals. Screw mental illness, developmental delay and invisible disabilities (in both the child AND parent). Screw intrinsic personality traits that can't be "parented out" of a human being. I am so omnicient about parents, children, their neurochemistry, their family situations and their parenting efforts, that I can judge if the parent is nurturing properly. I can be the ultimate arbiter of whether a parent is presenting society with children who act "properly socialized", or if they are lazily/nefariously/ignorantly letting their kids turn into little weirdos."

Nope, I didn’t say any of that. 

I know your kids have a hard time socially, Wendy. I’d never judge you for any social difficulties they had. I wish you had an easier row to hoe. I don’t even know what I’d do or how I’d cope in your shoes.

[Not_a_Number]

21 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

What does it mean to 'socialize kids properly'?

I mean, beyond the whole locked in the basement thing...

To treat social learning the way most of us on here treat academic learning — by assuming that it takes time and effort and needs to be tweaked to the kid.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

To treat social learning the way most of us on here treat academic learning — by assuming that it takes time and effort and needs to be tweaked to the kid.

Which is how most of us treat social learning as well. 

[Soror]

Of course we all have different resources available- be that classes, different types of schools, money, intelligence, etc.

We all have different kids. Some kids will thrive with hsing. But some kids aren't going to thrive at home be it conflict with parent, social, or academic needs. 

All of that is why personal experience is going to be of little use to @Not_a_Number because what she has available, what she can give, and what her child needs are entirely different than anyone here. 

[BusyMom5]

Wow, this thread really took a U-turn!  

I wanted to come back because I do see some HS kids who would be better off in public school.  Some are socially awkward, have a LD, behavior disability,  or just completely unsocialized. We are having some issues in co-op class and it can be hard for me (teacher) to navigate. I feel stuck between the kids who are really needing to learn to hang out and visit with peers,  and the ones who feel uncomfortable around them (this includes my kid).  Learning to incorporate yourself into society is just as important as learning to read or do math.  It's a skill.  Some kids are naturally talented in math, and others really struggle or have dyscalculia.  Some kids can easily learn to socialize and others need a lot more practice and will always struggle.  As a parent, I know what I want to do with my kids, but not sure if I should approach a parent if I suspect an issue.  Often homeschooling parents ignore behaviors that should have been addressed long ago!  I have often encouraged parents to get an evaluation,  but they rarely do.  I use my own experience, but it falls on deaf ears.

Also, if you are in a co-op, and your kid has any type of learning disability or behavior issue, let the teacher know!!!!  Much easier for me to adjust when I know what is going on.  I hate guessing!  

I do think the vast majority of parents are trying hard!  It can be rough for those of us in rural areas.  I take it on a year by year basis and I'm not opposed to public school, especially for high school, if that's what works best for your family. We all have to manage and balance the needs of all members of the family.  I'd much rather your child be where they feel happiest!  Teen years are so hard- full of things you never even considered, then you must let them go free into the big,  wide world.  

[Clemsondana]

Interesting, @BusyMom5!  We do get some quirky kids at co-op, but the behavior issues are mostly standard classroom issues like talking or being on their phones.  My kid actually thinks private school kids are the ones that are poorly socialized.  Kid took a drivers ed class at a driving school a year ago that was like a traditional school day - 8 am - 4 pm for 5 days.  We know several kids who have taken it and they generally describe it as 'kind of boring, but useful - they make it as interesting as they can'.  Kid said that most of the kids were fine, some got a little chatty and had to be told to hush but weren't intentionally rude, but there were some who were just obnoxious and rude, and those kids were private school kids.  Now that I think of it, one of kid's groups has a few new members, and the one that the leaders are having to socialize to the group norms is a new homeschooler who just came from private school.  We also know lovely private school kids and some bevahiorally challenged kids from public or homeschool, so this may just be a small sample size.  

[Frances]

@BusyMom5if only public or private school was a good fit and solution for a socially awkward kid. In my experience, it’s often a nightmare and makes things worse, not better. That’s not to say I don’t disagree that some parents (and not just some homeschool parents) aren’t trying to get the help their kids may need for a whole variety of reasons. But at least personally, I don’t generally hear success stories about socially awkward kids and public school. I mean, it’s not as though public schools are really teaching social skills for the most part. My son spent one semester in a middle school that very much focused on group projects and group learning and even when we visited, they talked about all of the difficulties associated with that. But what they never talked about or actually did was explicitly teach the kids the skills needed for success in such situations.

[KSera]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Nope, I didn’t say any of that. 

I know your kids have a hard time socially, Wendy. I’d never judge you for any social difficulties they had. I wish you had an easier row to hoe. I don’t even know what I’d do or how I’d cope in your shoes.

But, as you say, you know that about Wendy and that’s why you wouldn’t judge her or her kids. Most of the kids you meet, you’re not going to know these things about. Many of the struggles people have are kept private. Despite the fact you think you are perfectly able to pick out which kids are on the spectrum and which are just poorly socialized, I can pretty much guarantee you are getting some of those wrong that you are certain you have right. There are other parents out there like Wendy, like myself, like other parents here, who have kids you would judge unfairly based on what you have said. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

Wow, this thread really took a U-turn!  

I wanted to come back because I do see some HS kids who would be better off in public school.  Some are socially awkward, have a LD, behavior disability,  or just completely unsocialized. We are having some issues in co-op class and it can be hard for me (teacher) to navigate. I feel stuck between the kids who are really needing to learn to hang out and visit with peers,  and the ones who feel uncomfortable around them (this includes my kid).  Learning to incorporate yourself into society is just as important as learning to read or do math.  It's a skill.  Some kids are naturally talented in math, and others really struggle or have dyscalculia.  Some kids can easily learn to socialize and others need a lot more practice and will always struggle.  As a parent, I know what I want to do with my kids, but not sure if I should approach a parent if I suspect an issue.  Often homeschooling parents ignore behaviors that should have been addressed long ago!  I have often encouraged parents to get an evaluation,  but they rarely do.  I use my own experience, but it falls on deaf ears.

Also, if you are in a co-op, and your kid has any type of learning disability or behavior issue, let the teacher know!!!!  Much easier for me to adjust when I know what is going on.  I hate guessing!  

I do think the vast majority of parents are trying hard!  It can be rough for those of us in rural areas.  I take it on a year by year basis and I'm not opposed to public school, especially for high school, if that's what works best for your family. We all have to manage and balance the needs of all members of the family.  I'd much rather your child be where they feel happiest!  Teen years are so hard- full of things you never even considered, then you must let them go free into the big,  wide world.  

As a teacher who’s taught in public, private and homeschool, of course some kids are more awkward socially. But as Frances just said, brick and mortar schools are not some panacea of social learning. Yes, you might win the lottery and have wonderful caring teachers, who foster inclusivity as well as learning. Or you can have teachers who are as much a bully as any kid. You might find your “tribe” or your tribe might not be represented and you’re just as lonely and again possibly bullied in a crowd. Parents can fail to meet needs just as much by sending their kids off to brick and mortar school. 

[wendyroo]

22 minutes ago, KSera said:

But, as you say, you know that about Wendy and that’s why you wouldn’t judge her or her kids. Most of the kids you meet, you’re not going to know these things about. Many of the struggles people have are kept private. Despite the fact you think you are perfectly able to pick out which kids are on the spectrum and which are just poorly socialized, I can pretty much guarantee you are getting some of those wrong that you are certain you have right. There are other parents out there like Wendy, like myself, like other parents here, who have kids you would judge unfairly based on what you have said. 

And then are cases like my Spencer. He is not on the spectrum; he "just" has severe ADHD and anxiety. He is also a huge people pleaser, and I expect I could "socialize" him out of some of his benign quirkiness. But I don't. 1) He is very sensitive and anxious, and explicit social skills teaching often makes him feel chastened, worthless, reluctant to engage with others, and even more ill-at-ease which leads to increased awkwardness and quirkiness. 2) I have bigger fish to fry. When I have my psychiatrist and social worker hats on, I have to devote most of my time to helping my kids overcome their most harmful, damaging behaviors. Spencer's quirkiness does not rise to that level, so I have limited resources to stage intensive interventions. There are so many perfectly understandable reasons that a parent might not have the resources to tackle a child's quirk on society's time table: mental illness of their own, a medically fragile child, medical issues of their own, caring for ailing parents, job or financial stresses, etc.

Sometimes, I think parents of neurotypical kids vastly underestimate how much time and energy and work it takes to "fix" even a small maladaptive behavior in some non-neurotypical children. They seem to imply that if a child is "still" acting maladaptively, then the parent doesn't care enough to even put in the small amount of effort required. But I can tell you, in many cases the necessary effort is intensive. I have been trying to help Spencer remember to brush his teeth after breakfast for 5 years now...and he currently independently remembers about once a week. 🤨 And this is not "trying" like I have mentioned it a few times, this "trying" is signs and reminders and sticker charts and rewards and consequences and concerted effort e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e d.a.y for five years.

I always remember that ABA therapy often gets implemented 20-30 hours a week to help a child adapt behaviors. So an attitude of "can't you make him stop pacing, it makes him look weird" is actually asking that parent to devote a part time job's worth of time to remediating that behavior that is ultimately harmless just to fit their child into society's narrow mold of "normal".

[Jean in Newcastle]

With regards to school choice, some kids will do great in any educational setting no matter what social circumstances come attached.  Some kids will do better in one over the other, depending of course on local conditions.  Some kids can do ok in certain settings with some scaffolding or additional supports or tweaks.  And some kids just don't do well in any setting and you have to just choose the one that works best for them and the family while still realizing that it sucks overall.  No guarantees.  No panaceas.  No "homeschool is better" or "public school is better" winner. 

[Clarita]

12 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

So an attitude of "can't you make him stop pacing, it makes him look weird" is actually asking that parent to devote a part time job's worth of time to remediating that behavior that is ultimately harmless just to fit their child into society's narrow mold of "normal".

I know every workplace/job isn't like this, but it was a breath of fresh air when I went to work and I could request breaks where I could do my "weird" thing or just do my weird thing. Whether it'd be pacing, not talk to anyone for the remainder of the day, walk out of a meeting with out saying goodbye, finishing it up in my cubicle, or wear the same shirt and pants combo every day; say the quirky need and have people be OK with it because it's harmless or at least try to accommodate it in some way so it can be harmless.

[Terabith]

What brick and mortar school offered my kids that homeschooling didn’t was that it had a LOT of kids.  It wasn’t some panacea of social emotional instruction or a utopia setting, but there were so many kids, that there were a lot of different kinds of kids.  There were enough kids that they found kids who shared their interests and who could be their tribe.  The people who are their kind of people are the minority, and in homeschooling circles, not only did we have to deal with people not showing up for things consistently, but their were only a handful of kids within a few years of their age.  Even at Catholic school, they found people who they could talk to but who weren’t really their people.  Public school was where they ran into enough kids that they found people who could find friends. And then my oldest went to a tiny private school that was pretty much exclusively nerdy, artsy kids and their people.  We didn’t need a utopia; we needed volume.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

11 minutes ago, Terabith said:

What brick and mortar school offered my kids that homeschooling didn’t was that it had a LOT of kids.  It wasn’t some panacea of social emotional instruction or a utopia setting, but there were so many kids, that there were a lot of different kinds of kids.  There were enough kids that they found kids who shared their interests and who could be their tribe.  The people who are their kind of people are the minority, and in homeschooling circles, not only did we have to deal with people not showing up for things consistently, but their were only a handful of kids within a few years of their age.  Even at Catholic school, they found people who they could talk to but who weren’t really their people.  Public school was where they ran into enough kids that they found people who could find friends. And then my oldest went to a tiny private school that was pretty much exclusively nerdy, artsy kids and their people.  We didn’t need a utopia; we needed volume.  

And that’s wonderful that it worked that way for them. Just realize that it doesn’t work that way for everyone,  even with a high volume of kids. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Terabith said:

What brick and mortar school offered my kids that homeschooling didn’t was that it had a LOT of kids.  It wasn’t some panacea of social emotional instruction or a utopia setting, but there were so many kids, that there were a lot of different kinds of kids.  There were enough kids that they found kids who shared their interests and who could be their tribe.  The people who are their kind of people are the minority, and in homeschooling circles, not only did we have to deal with people not showing up for things consistently, but their were only a handful of kids within a few years of their age.  Even at Catholic school, they found people who they could talk to but who weren’t really their people.  Public school was where they ran into enough kids that they found people who could find friends. And then my oldest went to a tiny private school that was pretty much exclusively nerdy, artsy kids and their people.  We didn’t need a utopia; we needed volume.  

Yeeeeesssss! I could not really help one of my kid’s lack of friends partially just on a numbers-game basis. I grant you when this kiddo was little, nobody cared; playmates could be the same gender or not, a bit older, a bit younger, interested in the same things, or different things - it just did not matter. But it mattered by high school. And in high school, the magical wonder that happened was kiddo made it onto sports teams, which basically provided an instant posse of friends. It saved that kid in a way. 

[Terabith]

11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And that’s wonderful that it worked that way for them. Just realize that it doesn’t work that way for everyone,  even with a high volume of kids. 

Oh, of course it doesn’t.  My argument is in no way that public school is best.  It’s not.  Ultimately, it led my oldest to have a nervous breakdown because they couldn’t cope with the stimuli.  I regularly suggest that people pull their kids.  And academically, public school has been pathetic for my kids.  It’s certainly not where they go to get an education.  
 

My point is that there’s no perfect situation.  And that sometimes, when a situation is not working, trying something different is a reasonable thing to do.  I see people saying all the time that homeschooling is miserable, and their kids are crying, and they are super stressed, but they are convinced anything else would be worse.  But they haven’t tried anything else.  And the same with public or private school.  My only point is if something isn’t working, try something else.  Don’t be so dogmatically wedded to a single form of education that you don’t consider alternatives.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And that’s wonderful that it worked that way for them. Just realize that it doesn’t work that way for everyone,  even with a high volume of kids. 

I sent my older ds at the age of 3 to a preschool for 3 hours a day. One day he came home and told me "I love being with all my friends, but I don't like being surrounded by my enemies."  I was like 'enemies'?!?!?! at 3? But it does sum things up nicely.  Lots of kids does not equal a comfortable environment. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I sent my older ds at the age of 3 to a preschool for 3 hours a day. One day he came home and told me "I love being with all my friends, but I don't like being surrounded by my enemies."  I was like 'enemies'?!?!?! at 3? But it does sum things up nicely.  Lots of kids does not equal a comfortable environment. 

Yup. I have my own public US high school experience of hell. I had zero friends. I am not socially inept (even back then) but I was the “Jap kid” (their word for me- I am not even Japanese ethnically). I was having to navigate halls where I would have ice water thrown on me in the middle of Michigan winters. Teachers weren’t much better as I had the English teacher who came to class drunk, the math teacher (aka football coach) who spent all class time drawing football diagrams on the chalkboard, the social studies teacher who would be kicked out nowadays for the completely inappropriate nsfw stories he would tell (not even related to the subject) and the art teacher who was dealing drugs out of her storeroom and who threatened to “cut me” (ie with a knife) if I told anyone. The only person who was decent in that hellhole was my physics teacher who was kind. There were hundreds of people there so it wasn’t some tiny social environment. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, wendyroo said:

And then are cases like my Spencer. He is not on the spectrum; he "just" has severe ADHD and anxiety. He is also a huge people pleaser, and I expect I could "socialize" him out of some of his benign quirkiness. But I don't. 1) He is very sensitive and anxious, and explicit social skills teaching often makes him feel chastened, worthless, reluctant to engage with others, and even more ill-at-ease which leads to increased awkwardness and quirkiness. 2) I have bigger fish to fry. When I have my psychiatrist and social worker hats on, I have to devote most of my time to helping my kids overcome their most harmful, damaging behaviors. Spencer's quirkiness does not rise to that level, so I have limited resources to stage intensive interventions. There are so many perfectly understandable reasons that a parent might not have the resources to tackle a child's quirk on society's time table: mental illness of their own, a medically fragile child, medical issues of their own, caring for ailing parents, job or financial stresses, etc.

Sometimes, I think parents of neurotypical kids vastly underestimate how much time and energy and work it takes to "fix" even a small maladaptive behavior in some non-neurotypical children. They seem to imply that if a child is "still" acting maladaptively, then the parent doesn't care enough to even put in the small amount of effort required. But I can tell you, in many cases the necessary effort is intensive. I have been trying to help Spencer remember to brush his teeth after breakfast for 5 years now...and he currently independently remembers about once a week. 🤨 And this is not "trying" like I have mentioned it a few times, this "trying" is signs and reminders and sticker charts and rewards and consequences and concerted effort e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e d.a.y for five years.

I always remember that ABA therapy often gets implemented 20-30 hours a week to help a child adapt behaviors. So an attitude of "can't you make him stop pacing, it makes him look weird" is actually asking that parent to devote a part time job's worth of time to remediating that behavior that is ultimately harmless just to fit their child into society's narrow mold of "normal".

Oh man, if you could 'fix' quirks, I would have. Not knowing about dd's autism, I spent 17 years full time assisting her with 'fixes' (lovingly) at home, because school just wanted to stick her in a box and forget about her. Literal quote from her kindy teacher: 'oh, we just call her the loner'. (Attitudes to autistic students in mainstream classroom teachers do not appear to have improved much in the intervening years, judging by some of the bull I hear my colleagues come out with, still appearing to think autistic people can be trained out of their autism).

It was MY LIFE! Bucket loads of nurture, ladies, bucket loads.

At no stage did anyone close to her say 'oh, autism, give her a break', because she doesn't look stereotypically autistic, mostly because of my intensive 'nurture' aka how to mask beautifully. This included a childhood psychologist. So please, not sure anyone has autism radar.

It was an unforgivable effort in many ways, because yes, it was aimed at remediating the child to get her to fit into our (excuse the language) totally f***ed and narrow 'society'. Which she can, but at a very high cost. So mostly, as an adult,  she's stopped doing it. I'm still paying the economic price of school's failure and my efforts to step in in place of school.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

42 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yup. I have my own public US high school experience of hell. I had zero friends. I am not socially inept (even back then) but I was the “Jap kid” (their word for me- I am not even Japanese ethnically). I was having to navigate halls where I would have ice water thrown on me in the middle of Michigan winters. Teachers weren’t much better as I had the English teacher who came to class drunk, the math teacher (aka football coach) who spent all class time drawing football diagrams on the chalkboard, the social studies teacher who would be kicked out nowadays for the completely inappropriate nsfw stories he would tell (not even related to the subject) and the art teacher who was dealing drugs out of her storeroom and who threatened to “cut me” (ie with a knife) if I told anyone. The only person who was decent in that hellhole was my physics teacher who was kind. There were hundreds of people there so it wasn’t some tiny social environment. 

This is very similar to my experience, coming to high school as a high potential kid but with undisclosed ongoing abuse at home.

The psychological cruelty of other students and staff still takes my breath away. Being taunted after a suicide attempt by my year advisor, something I'm still grappling with 30+ years on.

Being taunted and shunned by peers for 'being smart'. 'A snob'.

Being punished for 'not living up to my potential'. Teachers joking with my abusive parent that 'I just needed a smack across the head with a lump of wood' to 'wake me up'. 

Executive colluding (no other word for it) with my abusive parent who was well-liked at school.

Affairs between staff and female students (rape/pregnancy/abortion).

Verbal and emotional abuse in the classroom. Witnessing the emotional torture and physical bullying of other students.

I mean, sure, there were a lot of kids there.

 

This was not considered a particularly difficult school, btw.

 

[Shelydon]

My adult kids love and appreciate being homeschooled. They had tons of friends, could do sports if desired and took outsourced classes as needed.  I created a big homeschool group that meets weekly or twice a week specifically for them. This group is now 300+ families and going strong.

[Shelydon]

On 10/10/2022 at 11:32 AM, skimomma said:

My dd does this too.  She does not disclose her homeschooling history until she knows someone pretty well.  Same with instructors.  She gets the same reaction every time: "But, you're not weird!"  Sigh.

Sad to hear that.  My kids get asked if they were homeschooled by professors because "you are an excellent student who can think."

[Familia]

My daughter, full grown & flown adult, recently stated it well: “Homeschooling was great because it was efficient, I can’t imagine wasting all that time at school all those years.” 

In that statement she summed up why I was willing to homeschool in the first place when my ‘crazy’ husband suggested we take the plunge. 

And, I guess you could say we had easy kids, but I really think it’s that they had an easy mom.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

But, as you say, you know that about Wendy and that’s why you wouldn’t judge her or her kids. Most of the kids you meet, you’re not going to know these things about. Many of the struggles people have are kept private. Despite the fact you think you are perfectly able to pick out which kids are on the spectrum and which are just poorly socialized, I can pretty much guarantee you are getting some of those wrong that you are certain you have right. There are other parents out there like Wendy, like myself, like other parents here, who have kids you would judge unfairly based on what you have said. 

I have one of those spectrum kids who, if you didn’t know the history, you’d think had some behavior issues that were completely my fault. Not that he’s struggling and overwhelmed.

I was homeschooled as were my 7 siblings. We all had different experiences and some of us appreciate being homeschooled and some don’t.

At this point with my kids I am just doing the best I can and will offer to help pay for therapy as adults for the stuff I didn’t do well.