Overuse of “Narcissist”

[Indigo Blue]

I know I’m talking a lot in this thread…sorry….these thoughts just keep pouring out…

There are so many good YouTube channels put out there now by qualified people that are quite helpful for so many people. Gardenmom, you know all the ones…we’ve discussed them… and I love them….

But they have become so numerous and have gathered so many followers….Could this be where some of this overuse is coming from? Over time  this has gotten so big on YouTube and is now spreading to TikTok and when so many jump on that it just leads to a whole mass of people misusing and taking advantage of what it means? Could this be the root of some of this? Just thinking.

[Clemsondana]

18 minutes ago, Katy said:

Except I never said all. And a greater proportion just means more than 5%. The above is approaching a lesson in how to lie with statistics. 

I never said that you said all - that was referring to Quill's OP where she said 'almost every', for which 'all'  seemed like a reasonable approximation.  I teach 'How to Lie with Statistics' and I understand how numbers can be manipulated.  I also have no clue whether any of the number being thrown around - 5% of the population, the actual divorce rate, whether most divorces are repeat divorcers, etc.  If the rate of narcissism is double or triple 5%, then of course the math works out differently.  But, your argument didn't seem to fit with my understanding of what @scholasticawas trying to convey. What I understood her to be saying was that divorce is fairly common in our society, while actual narcissists are fairly rare.  It is certainly possible that the same narcissists are getting remarried and divorcing again, such that most divorces have a narcissist as one of the parties.  It's possible that narcissists get married at a higher rate than the general population so that narcissists are more represented in married couples than in the general population, and thus more likely to be involved in a divorce (since single people don't get divorced).  There are several things that could explain why 'almost all' of the women that Quill seee seeking divorce claim that their husband was a narcissist.  But, at first glance, based on the relative percentages of narcissists and divorce in the population, it's not crazy to think that 'people overuse the term malignant narcissist' to describe behavior that is just ordinary selfish or angry.  Most of us have seen divorces among people that we know, and I'd imagine that many of them are between non-narcissists who, for whatever reason, can't work out the problems in their marriage.

[Amethyst]

I was just saying this to my dh two days ago. Everybody someone can’t get along with is a narcissist! Years ago, people seeking divorce cried “emotional abuse”. I’m not saying there us no such thing as narcissists or emotional abuse, but yes, the terms have been over-used!

[Farrar]

Thanks for saying this, Quill. I'm so there.

Narcissism is common. Actual people with NPD are not.

One of the things that especially rubs me the wrong way is a lot of it seems to have so little understanding that sometimes people are jerks with one person and experience growth or are healthier in other contexts. Or just that sometimes it does take two to tango. Some of the people I've talked to who talk about having been abused by a narcissist have an almost narcissistic view of the person where everything revolves around the hurt they experienced, as if the person's only purpose in life was to abuse them maliciously. 

I do appreciate that so many of us are more aware and have better language to talk about interpersonal dynamics. I just think most of the time that we have to be aware that our frameworks and lenses are just that. They're a version of the truth, a way to think about how and why things happen and people behave a certain way. They're not some objective reality, so we have to be aware that there are other framings, other views, and that people are really complex.

[KSera]

53 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

Isn't this true for many formally diagnosed conditions that people minimize by comparing to much less serious issues?  "Oh, I'm addicted to chocolate!".  "He's just psychotic about his hobbies", "She's just autistic about having an orderly desk"...

But I think this particular term is a bit tricky, as people have been using allusions to the mythical Narcissus for millennia in various meanings before the formal NPD diagnosis existed.

I think it's one thing when people say someone is "narcissistic" (though this can also be overused, eg entitled young adults who cry narcissist anytime they don't get everything they want), but when someone says someone is or has "NPD" then they are suggesting the person has the actual mental illness, which is an entirely different thing.

[Tanaqui]

Way up at the start of this thread, Quill, you asked for opinions and here is mine: If you don't actually know all the people in question, you probably ought to keep your thoughts and doubts to yourself. Maybe you're in a weird little cluster. Maybe all your co-workers are just throwing around buzzwords. Who knows? Who cares? You don't know their soon-to-be-exes, or their mothers, or their neighbors, so you probably are better off focusing on your work.

Yeah, sure, none of those people's problematic relations have formal diagnoses. Whether or not they merit those diagnoses, I think we can agree it'd be an uphill battle to get them in to be diagnosed in the first place.

[skimomma]

How is NPD diagnosed?  A person who might be NPD with no other disorders is highly unlikely to seek mental health care and therefore a diagnosis, right?  The experience I have with a person that might have NPD is that they actually think it is impossible that they would ever have a "flaw" in their mental health.  Unless physically forced to, they would never ever even talk with a mental health professional.  So, that does leave the general population with fairly "new" access to information (google) with no other choice than to suspect someone either is NPD or is at least displaying a high level of narcissist behaviors.  Of course it is overblown, like many other disorders that PPs have already listed and it is also very easy to point fingers when the problem lies at least partially with the owner of the finger but in all practicality, if NPD (or the associated traits) best describe a person's behavior, I see nothing wrong with using the term.

I am coming from a place of having learned that this disorder existed only a few years ago after decades of dealing with someone I now suspect has it.  In my case, whether or not it is truly NPD, learning about it has made a HUGE difference in how to deal with this person.  After literally decades of scratching our heads we have real tools to cope and interact with this person.  So much less damage is occurring.  We are learning to be able to keep this person in our lives while still protecting ourselves.  For that, I am thankful, even if it came out of over and/or mis use.  Same with gaslighting.  Our person also does this.  And again, learning that this is a real thing was a ridiculous relief.  

[skimomma]

DP

Edited August 12, 2022 by skimomma

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Yes! It is driving me crazy.  The term has lost all credible meaning.    😵‍💫🤦🏻‍♀️

Perhaps not all credible meaning.

Bill

[Tanaqui]

skimomma, while it's conventional wisdom that narcissists will virtually never go to a shrink willingly, my understanding is that there is a small but significant percentage that *will* - either because they want a chance to talk uninterrupted and get a socially acceptable diagnosis to excuse their bad behavior, or because they really want to go with a family member in order to better badger that family member, or, occasionally, because they've harmed themselves SO MUCH with their behavior that they're finally willing to try ANYTHING. (And some will go because a friend or a family member who really is important to them sets a firm ultimatum  - therapy or no relationship. That's not quite "willing", though.)

However, many of them will stop going if they're subject to too much scrutiny, and even if they're genuinely committed to the effort the odds of them getting a shrink with enough experience with NPD to accurately diagnose them, much less help them are... well, they're not good odds.

[pitterpatter]

I totally get what you're saying. I suffer from chronic migraine. I get really annoyed when people who have run-of-the-mill headaches say they have migraines.

I like what the author of Pyschopath Free says. Does it really matter what the diagnosis is? If the person is toxic and emotionally abusing you or someone you love, it's a problem. If it's affecting you're own mental wellbeing, it's time to distance yourself from that relationship.

As far as armchair diagnoses go, most toxic people aren't going to get official diagnoses (unless they do something where they have to) because they won't see that there's anything wrong with them. So, what else can the rest of us do when the alarm bells are ringing?

I find psychology fascinating. I get so amused when my undiagnosed narcissistic parent, who checks every freaking box on the list, and has emotionally abused the people closest to him/her all his/her life, calls other people narcissists. 🙃 For years I resisted labeling this parent for the exact reason you say. And, I've suffered for it. The reality is that I was groomed to be the person I am. And by not armchair diagnosing this person earlier, I've allowed this parent to destroy a large chunk of my life. I thought I was just being a strong person, but now I see that I was always just a pawn. It's a hard pill to swallow.

[skimomma]

10 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

skimomma, while it's conventional wisdom that narcissists will virtually never go to a shrink willingly, my understanding is that there is a small but significant percentage that *will* - either because they want a chance to talk uninterrupted and get a socially acceptable diagnosis to excuse their bad behavior, or because they really want to go with a family member in order to better badger that family member, or, occasionally, because they've harmed themselves SO MUCH with their behavior that they're finally willing to try ANYTHING. (And some will go because a friend or a family member who really is important to them sets a firm ultimatum  - therapy or no relationship. That's not quite "willing", though.)

However, many of them will stop going if they're subject to too much scrutiny, and even if they're genuinely committed to the effort the odds of them getting a shrink with enough experience with NPD to accurately diagnose them, much less help them are... well, they're not good odds.

Interesting.  I so wish we could get ours to go to some sort of family counseling, but even if we could, I suspect that they would be unwilling to continue if the therapist ever suggested any part of any problem was them.  This person's behavior got much MUCH worse after a significant loss.  We begged them to go to grief counseling.  They were unwilling but did try a support group.  The assessment after one meeting was that it was just "a bunch of whiny losers that need to get over themselves."  Yikes.  

This is all super fresh right now because after a handful of years of avoiding the worst interactions with this person, thanks to learning that NPD existed and tools for coping with it, a family member got hit at a weak moment and fell into one of the old traps.  They engaged in ways we have now learned not to and got very emotionally beat up.  While it was a very bad moment, it was also a helpful reminder of how bad bad BAD things used to be and how much better having some guidance has made our lives.

[Slache]

26 minutes ago, skimomma said:

How is NPD diagnosed?  A person who might be NPD with no other disorders is highly unlikely to seek mental health care and therefore a diagnosis, right?  

I can name two, one suspected NPD and one suspected APD that went to therapy on their own. Both gave their version of events and came out as the victim, which I'm sure is true based on what they said.

After therapy my mom got divorced to get away from an abusive man, quit her job to get away from an abusive boss, moved to another state to get away from abusive neighbors, and sent me to live somewhere else for 3 years because I was a difficult child. My dad was not abusive and I was 18 months old. Something doesn't add up and it certainly didn't add up to a diagnosis.

The other went to 3 court mandated sessions and told me her psychiatrist diagnosed ME with BPD. So if they do go to therapy, they won't tell the truth, so it simply doesn't matter if they go or not.

Attention Deficit Disorder can be partially diagnosed by questionnaires filled out by loved ones. I think personality disorders should be the same.

[gardenmom5]

32 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

  they really want to go with a family member in order to better badger that family member,  

That's what my brother did.  He wanted to convince his youngest her mother has BPD . . . He was in the sessions with her.  The therapist called niece and told her what was up and niece promptly moved out of his house and blocked him.

10 minutes ago, Slache said:

 

The other went to 3 court mandated sessions and told me her psychiatrist diagnosed ME with BPD. So if they do go to therapy, they won't tell the truth, so it simply doesn't matter if they go or not.

Attention Deficit Disorder can be partially diagnosed by questionnaires filled out by loved ones. I think personality disorders should be the same.

Did you tell her that psychiatrist couldn't (wouldn't) diagnose someone they've never actually met to do an assessment or they're risk losing their license to practice?

[KeriJ]

Yes! Because my dad truly had diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder...mental health professional said it was one of the worst cases he'd seen. So it's hard for me to watch people throw the term around loosely. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, pitterpatter said:

If it's affecting you're own mental wellbeing, it's time to distance yourself from that relationship.

 

 

[deleted]

Also,  everyone says that people need to distance themselves from relationships with people with NPD or BPD, but that’s not realistic or possible in every case.  Sometimes it’s someone who can’t take care of themself.  These diagnoses are sometimes comorbid with other disorders.

2 hours ago, Slache said:

The other went to 3 court mandated sessions and told me her psychiatrist diagnosed ME with BPD. So if they do go to therapy, they won't tell the truth, so it simply doesn't matter if they go or not.

This. Yes. 
 

I think one big clue is if the person globally struggles with relationships with those around them and/or is dysfunctional in many ways in their life. Versus those around them who are living pretty normal, functional lives except for the dysfunction that happens with this one person.
 

Edited August 12, 2022 by KSera

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Did you tell her that psychiatrist couldn't (wouldn't) diagnose someone they've never actually met to do an assessment or they're risk losing their license to practice?

No. I was 21 and so done with her at that point. I also didn't know that at the time, but also knew I didn't have it because I'm perfect.

[KeriJ]

44 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

skimomma, while it's conventional wisdom that narcissists will virtually never go to a shrink willingly, my understanding is that there is a small but significant percentage that *will* - either because they want a chance to talk uninterrupted and get a socially acceptable diagnosis to excuse their bad behavior, or because they really want to go with a family member in order to better badger that family member, or, occasionally, because they've harmed themselves SO MUCH with their behavior that they're finally willing to try ANYTHING. (And some will go because a friend or a family member who really is important to them sets a firm ultimatum  - therapy or no relationship. That's not quite "willing", though.)

However, many of them will stop going if they're subject to too much scrutiny, and even if they're genuinely committed to the effort the odds of them getting a shrink with enough experience with NPD to accurately diagnose them, much less help them are... well, they're not good odds.

My dad went because my mom insisted in an attempt to save the marriage. 

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think one big clue is if the person globally struggles with relationships with those around them and/or is dysfunctional in many ways in their life. Versus those around them who are living pretty normal, functional lives except for the dysfunction that happens with this one person.

This haunted me for years because I have a problem with BOTH my mother and my MIL. Obviously I must have been the problem because it couldn't be both of them. I don't know how I didn't pick up on the fact that MY ENTIRE FAMILY had gone no contact with my mom before I was 8 and three of MIL's children had done the same. I think I was probably 30 before I figured it out. I am a smart one! 🤓

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I think it's one thing when people say someone is "narcissistic" (though this can also be overused, eg entitled young adults who cry narcissist anytime they don't get everything they want), but when someone says someone is or has "NPD" then they are suggesting the person has the actual mental illness, which is an entirely different thing.

I'm not sure I think of the diagnosed personality disorders as an illness. I think of them as more akin to intra and interpersonal disorganisation of the personality. Sometimes the disorganisation has a clear cause and sometimes it doesn't. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pitterpatter]

Oh, don't I know it! I'm not out of my situation by any means. I am trying to erect some walls to better protect myself from more damage. And, trying to limit interaction with this person. (Which ends up blowing up in my face from time to time because I get accused to not giving, caring, visiting this person enough.) And generally, I'm trying to regulate how I speak to this person. Knowing I'm being played helps me distance myself emotionally.

I'm not into social media at all (except this and a couple of other specialized boards), but I do find it interesting that my 15-year-old DD, who spends a lot of time on YouTube, told me that I need to cut this parent off. 🤣 We discussed why that truly isn't possible. And, why it's difficult to do because that person IS still a human being with emotions and feelings. And yeah, I'm in a caregiving situation with this person, so I'm pretty well stuck in misery.

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Also,  everyone says that people need to distance themselves from relationships with people with NPD or BPD, but that’s not realistic or possible in every case.  Sometimes it’s someone who can’t take care of themself.  These diagnoses are sometimes comorbid with other disorders.

 

[Spryte]

15 minutes ago, Slache said:

This haunted me for years because I have a problem with BOTH my mother and my MIL. Obviously I must have been the problem because it couldn't be both of them. I don't know how I didn't pick up on the fact that MY ENTIRE FAMILY had gone no contact with my mom before I was 8 and three of MIL's children had done the same. I think I was probably 30 before I figured it out. I am a smart one! 🤓

I understand that haunting feeling. I have two in my life as well. One I mentioned above, and another who is undiagnosed, but wow, does she tick all the boxes and then some. They were brought into my life by the same person, though, so I suspect that that person is simply attracted to people with personality disorders. All of my other relationships are normal, including lifelong friendships, and I have a very large extended IL family of 23+ years with close, stable relationships. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Spryte

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I understand that haunting feeling. I have two in my life as well. One I mentioned above, and another who is undiagnosed, but wow, does she tick all the boxes and then some. They were brought into my life by the same person, though, so I suspect that that person is simply attracted to people with personality disorders. All of my other relationships are normal, including lifelong friendships, and I have a very large extended IL family of 23+ years with close, stable relationships. 

I'm totally attracted to personality disorders, so I understand that. I've learned to recognize it for what it is now, but when I was younger and an older woman would come in all love bombing my heart just yearned for a mom and I was all in. Because I was raised by one I saw no red flags and had no boundaries so they loved me too. I went through a few moms before I figured it out, but if it had been my dad I probably would have married one. Oi.

[KSera]

np

Edited August 12, 2022 by KSera

[Melissa Louise]

OK. So I think there's a place for people experiencing relationships in which narcissism plays a huge role to gather to talk for mutual support without having to think about how they express themselves. 

I think it's off to speak generally about 'they' and 'them' and what 'they' do. People with PD's are people with PDs - not a walking PD. Besides anything else, not all PDs are the same in terms of treatment and outcome. 

I think there's a lot of faux-psychology in the world of narcissism support. 

More generally, if we want a world with less pain from PDs, we need to turn our attention to the prenatal and childhood environment. Broken circs make broken people. 

 

 

 

 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

More generally, if we want a world with less pain from PDs, we need to turn our attention to the prenatal and childhood environment. Broken circs make broken people. 

While prenatal and childhood environments of course should be paid attention to, I think there's a lot to indicate a lot of PDs really don't go back to that. There are a lot of parents with borderline kids for example who can't fathom what went off the rails where because there was nothing in the childhood environment to account for it at all. But like lots of other mental health issues, it's always popular to blame it on the parents.

[Slache]

Just now, KSera said:

Yeah, I agree it doesn't feel the same as other mental illnesses. I think they are technically classified that way though. I have tried to analyze why it feels like a person with a personality disorder should be able to change it if they wanted to more than it feels that way with some other things. It's just from the outside it seems pretty clear what things would make it better and what are making things worse and it feels somehow like they are making choices to behave the way they are. But I don't know how much they can control themselves really. I just don't know. It's frequently so irrational that maybe they really can't control it.

If they can control it in public they can control it. 

The self aware narcissists who write books and talk on YouTube fully admit that they can control it, they just don't want to, and they don't care how it effects you. It's not that they're cruel, they just don't see you as a person. They don't know how.

[Slache]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

While prenatal and childhood environments of course should be paid attention to, I think there's a lot to indicate a lot of PDs really don't go back to that. There are a lot of parents with borderline kids for example who can't fathom what went off the rails where because there was nothing in the childhood environment to account for it at all. But like lots of other mental health issues, it's always popular to blame it on the parents.

I don't blame parents for any mental illness except cluster Bs. Cluster Bs are made through intentional childhood abuse. There are exceptions, but narcissists actively train their children to be just like them on purpose. There are also genetic factors, which is why some become cluster Bs and some don't.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I agree it doesn't feel the same as other mental illnesses. I think they are technically classified that way though. I have tried to analyze why it feels like a person with a personality disorder should be able to change it if they wanted to more than it feels that way with some other things. It's just from the outside it seems pretty clear what things would make it better and what are making things worse and it feels somehow like they are making choices to behave the way they are. But I don't know how much they can control themselves really. I just don't know. It's frequently so irrational that maybe they really can't control it.

Well, it gets tricky when we conflate disorders -  not all PDs are the same, plenty of people with some PDs seek treatment and improve, and 'they' - a person with a diagnosis - will have an individual journey with their disorder, heavily influenced, of course, by their environments (family are only one aspect of environment). 

If you're thinking of BPD, it often improves even without treatment ( if a person survives the associated suicidality) with age. 

I don't know why anyone would think it would be easy to change a pattern of personality that may well be rooted in injury or trauma. You need mega resources and courage to do that. It's not like it's treatable with a pill or an 8 week course of CBT, kwim? 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

While prenatal and childhood environments of course should be paid attention to, I think there's a lot to indicate a lot of PDs really don't go back to that. There are a lot of parents with borderline kids for example who can't fathom what went off the rails where because there was nothing in the childhood environment to account for it at all. But like lots of other mental health issues, it's always popular to blame it on the parents.

Yeah, I have a kid with a BPD diagnosis, and my relationship to that is complex. 

One complexity - when we stray away from talking about NPD and move to BPD - a different diagnosis - is that BPD is a pretty sexist diagnosis. Just be a young woman in psychiatric distress presenting for treatment for self harm or suicidality more than once...bang, here's your BPD label. 

I think looking at environment is much more than blaming the parent, because the parent is just one aspect of environment. 

 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

f you're thinking of BPD, it often improves even without treatment ( if a person survives the associated suicidality) with age. 

This is good to hear, and not something I had seen. I had seen DBT as being most helpful, but the outlook not being very good overall.

[Melissa Louise]

11 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't blame parents for any mental illness except cluster Bs. Cluster Bs are made through intentional childhood abuse. There are exceptions, but narcissists actively train their children to be just like them on purpose. There are also genetic factors, which is why some become cluster Bs and some don't.

 I think it's really not ok to refer to people as a 'Cluster B'. 

I think it's important to understand that just as anxiety is not depression is not an eating disorder, not all PDs are the same. 

I know my child with a BPD diagnosis was not intentionally abused or trained up to struggle emotionally with suicidality or self harm. 

 

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't know why anyone would think it would be easy to change a pattern of personality that may well be rooted in injury or trauma. You need mega resources and courage to do that. It's not like it's treatable with a pill or an 8 week course of CBT, kwim? 

Just to clarify on this, I'm not at all saying it seems like it would be easy for someone to change their personality, just that some of these things seem (and I keep italicizing "seem" to indicate that it doesn't mean I think they actually are) like people could make some changes to make things better in ways that it doesn't seem with someone with something like schiophrenia for example. I was sharing that I often have that underlying sense because it's a little easier to see from the outside, while also expressing that I don't think it actually works like that in practice. And certainly, I notice in general that other people seem to blame people with personality disorders for having them.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

This is good to hear, and not something I had seen. I had seen DBT as being most helpful, but the outlook not being very good overall.

There's a survivor bias. It's a dangerous, life threatening disorder for many.

If you make it through the confluence of young adulthood and high levels of psychiatric distress, you are likely to have developed coping skills along the way, regardless of treatment. Or you have some underlying health and  resilience. Or you stumble into an environment that is a good, supportive fit and can develop coping skills. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

Just to clarify on this, I'm not at all saying it seems like it would be easy for someone to change their personality, just that some of these things seem (and I keep italicizing "seem" to indicate that it doesn't mean I think they actually are) like people could make some changes to make things better in ways that it doesn't seem with someone with something like schiophrenia for example. I was sharing that I often have that underlying sense because it's a little easier to see from the outside, while also expressing that I don't think it actually works like that in practice. And certainly, I notice in general that other people seem to blame people with personality disorders for having them.

Right.

Yes. 

Ppl in general are pretty intolerant of mental illness and disorder. 

 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 I think it's really not ok to refer to people as a 'Cluster B'. 

I think it's important to understand that just as anxiety is not depression is not an eating disorder, not all PDs are the same. 

I know my child with a BPD diagnosis was not intentionally abused or trained up to struggle emotionally with suicidality or self harm. 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. There is a huge difference between BPD and APD. I have been through Hell and am extremely bitter. I will work on my wording.

I know not all were, but I also know the abuse people with certain PDs (not including BPD) inflict on their infants and beyond and it is absolutely done on purpose in a lot of cases.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Slache said:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. There is a huge difference between BPD and APD. I have been through Hell and am extremely bitter. I will work on my wording.

I know not all were, but I also know the abuse people with certain PDs (not including BPD) inflict on their infants and beyond and it is absolutely done on purpose in a lot of cases.

Yes, I agree that many disorders of the personality are rooted in childhood injury, physical and emotional. 

BPD is also considered a child sexual/other abuse disorder but I'm sceptical of that in a way.

I think the disorder is over-diagnosed and captures backgrounds that differ from the 'classic' presentation. 

But, ya know, it's definitely possible to inadvertently cause harm to a beloved child. I straddle the awkward spot of not blaming myself while accepting some responsibility. It just wasn't deliberate or malicious. 

 

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I agree that many disorders of the personality are rooted in childhood injury, physical and emotional. 

BPD is also considered a child sexual/other abuse disorder but I'm sceptical of that in a way.

I think the disorder is over-diagnosed and captures backgrounds that differ from the 'classic' presentation. 

But, ya know, it's definitely possible to inadvertently cause harm to a beloved child. I straddle the awkward spot of not blaming myself while accepting some responsibility. It just wasn't deliberate or malicious. 

I completely agree that it's overly diagnosed and misdiagnosed all of the time. Experts disagree on whether it should even be considered a cluster B or it's own thing because it does not present the same way and often has different causes.

I do not believe a loving parent who is purposefully good can cause such a thing. The type of activities I'm referring to are things like letting an infant become extremely hungry until they're screaming and then putting them in front of a cartoons so they confuse wants and needs, and refusing to potty train for some extra years so that you can rub their genitals and destroy boundaries. Those are common practice in a narcissistic forum I used to frequent to try to understand them better. Whatever you did wrong, and I know you did some doozies because we all do, you did not cause this.

[KungFuPanda]

6 hours ago, TheReader said:

I feel this way about a lot of things. Gaslighting is another one that gets overused/misused as well. 

 

I feel this way about ADD and depression. How is it possible that every other adult woman that I know needs to be medicated for one or both of these. Are these the same doctors who over prescribed opioids and created THAT epidemic?

[EKS]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

Does anyone else feel like this label is being over-applied to every partner, every controlling MIL, every jerky boss? Cause I sure do…

There are a lot of terms that are being over applied these days.  OCD when what is actually meant is fastidiousness.  PTSD when what is actually meant is sad or grieving or scared.  Schizophrenic when what is actually meant is being of two minds, behaving inconsistently or irrationally.

And don't get me started on labels that are overused in our political discourse.

[Katy]

If 5% is accurate, that’s one out of every twenty. It’s not rare at all. How many thousands of people have you met? Two thousand? Four thousand? More? 

You could easily have met more than a hundred people with NPD. 

[Tanaqui]

18 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I feel this way about ADD and depression. How is it possible that every other adult woman that I know needs to be medicated for one or both of these. Are these the same doctors who over prescribed opioids and created THAT epidemic?

Ah, I see we've moved from the "no armchair diagnoses!" part of the convo to the "those doctors are quacks" part.

It's either not the case that literally every other adult woman you know is being medicated for ADHD and/or depression, or you simply know a lot of people with ADHD and/or depression. Either way, I'm sure they don't really want to hear your opinions on their own mental health. I know I definitely didn't.

[Slache]

10 minutes ago, Katy said:

If 5% is accurate, that’s one out of every twenty. It’s not rare at all. How many thousands of people have you met? Two thousand? Four thousand? More? 

You could easily have met more than a hundred people with NPD. 

The average person currently knows 2,000 people, so that's 100. You wouldn't recognize most though. Only the ones close to you.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

While prenatal and childhood environments of course should be paid attention to, I think there's a lot to indicate a lot of PDs really don't go back to that. There are a lot of parents with borderline kids for example who can't fathom what went off the rails where because there was nothing in the childhood environment to account for it at all. But like lots of other mental health issues, it's always popular to blame it on the parents.

I'm positive my brother's went back to childhood.  He was "the boy", "the golden child".  he could do NO wrong.  He would get whatever was in reach.  He was a toxic **** by the time he was 12.  My grandmother was the one pushing it.  Yes - she was a misogynist.  Yes, women can be.   (she was from a large family of girls, NO boys - on a rural farm.  I understand boys are more useful on a farm when everything was about physical labor. BUT . . . )

When our father committed suicide, my brother was 15 - grandmother told him he was now "the man of the house" - and he was EXPECTED to be the leader of the family and be responsible for everyone. - including our *mother*.  (I once told him that was abusive to do to a 15 year old CHILD.)  again - this was pushed by our grandmother. 

My mother was a doormat to her overbearing mother - and no, I don't absolve her.  She started acting like a rebellious teenager.  But he was given things to make her life easier.  (like my dad's car when he was 15, so he could take me to dr appointments even though he didn't have a license, and he would deliberately spin the car)  Never mind what he was doing that was ILLEGAL (dealing drugs) or how adversely his behavior was putting me in danger (his friends who tried to force me to use drugs, and one in particular that tried to groom me. - when his friends were there, I was a prisoner in my own bedroom because I had a lock on my door to keep them out. I was not safe in the 'public' areas of my own house.)

so  yes - I do blame my grandmother, who facilitated this.  But, I developed my working definition of evil from her example.

and my mother who was too broken to protect her children from her mother.

1 hour ago, Slache said:

I don't blame parents for any mental illness except cluster Bs. Cluster Bs are made through intentional childhood abuse. There are exceptions, but narcissists actively train their children to be just like them on purpose. There are also genetic factors, which is why some become cluster Bs and some don't.

I don't know that it's "intentional abuse".   Behavior can be intentional, while not understanding it is abusive.  (re: my grandmother making my brother her golden child)  Doesn't change that there is lasting damage.

17 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I feel this way about ADD and depression. How is it possible that every other adult woman that I know needs to be medicated for one or both of these. Are these the same doctors who over prescribed opioids and created THAT epidemic?

yes. I remember back in the 90s when they were passing out antidepressants like mad, and people were having horrific times getting off of them.   I really did need them, and had ZERO issue ramping down and getting off when they were no longer needed.
back in the 70s - valium was handed out like candy.  My mother was on it at one point too . . . . 

[KungFuPanda]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Ah, I see we've moved from the "no armchair diagnoses!" part of the convo to the "those doctors are quacks" part.

It's either not the case that literally every other adult woman you know is being medicated for ADHD and/or depression, or you simply know a lot of people with ADHD and/or depression. Either way, I'm sure they don't really want to hear your opinions on their own mental health. I know I definitely didn't.

It’s not a judgement or an answer. It’s a question. Have we been historically under diagnosed and underserved? Do we need medication for all of these issues? Have doctors over prescribed things in the past and are they doing it now? Or are they actually still under diagnosing and under prescribing at this point and we need to keep moving in the same direction? This doesn’t make them quacks, but susceptible to trends like everyone else or beholden to current best practices. Is it good because people are being more proactive about their mental health and getting the treatment they need? Is it bad that the answer is almost always pharmaceutical?  I WANT people to find answers and I want those answers to be as easy as possible. However, when so many people have the same issues and treatments in the same time frame I start to have these questions. In the last three weeks I’ve seen 8 friends in person. They are ALL taking meds for ADD or depression or both. Only one was under treatment a decade ago. I’m sorry I said something you didn’t want to hear, but I don’t think my participation in this discussion was off-topic or out of line. 

[Slache]

19 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

It’s not a judgement or an answer. It’s a question. Have we been historically under diagnosed and underserved? Do we need medication for all of these issues? Have doctors over prescribed things in the past and are they doing it now? Or are they actually still under diagnosing and under prescribing at this point and we need to keep moving in the same direction? This doesn’t make them quacks, but susceptible to trends like everyone else or beholden to current best practices. Is it good because people are being more proactive about their mental health and getting the treatment they need? Is it bad that the answer is almost always pharmaceutical?  I WANT people to find answers and I want those answers to be as easy as possible. However, when so many people have the same issues and treatments in the same time frame I start to have these questions. In the last three weeks I’ve seen 8 friends in person. They are ALL taking meds for ADD or depression or both. Only one was under treatment a decade ago. I’m sorry I said something you didn’t want to hear, but I don’t think my participation in this discussion was off-topic or out of line. 

I'd be interested to know how many people are being treated for depression now as opposed to how many were in 2019. I'd give a big speech on how hard these years have been on us, but you already know, because it's been that hard on a lot of us. Most, probably. I'm exhausted, I'm stressed, I have no idea what to do and I'm not special. Everyone I talk to is a mess. I'm sure many are clinically depressed because of it. I've heard divorces are skyrocketing and I've lost 3 people to suicide since March of 2020. I know it's been worse in the past, but for those currently living, this is not our normal and we are not all ok.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

I'd be interested to know how many people are being treated for depression now as opposed to how many were in 2019. I'd give a big speech on how hard these years have been on us, but you already know, because it's been that hard on a lot of us. Most, probably. I'm exhausted, I'm stressed, I have no idea what to do and I'm not special. Everyone I talk to is a mess. I'm sure many are clinically depressed because of it. I've heard divorces are skyrocketing and I've lost 3 people to suicide since March of 2020. I know it's been worse in the past, but for those currently living, this is not our normal and we are not all ok.

My father was treated for depression in the 70s.   There is a huge difference in awareness.  

But I've also encountered drs who will go for the easiest "give them a pill to make them feel good and go away"  (including one of my pediatricians - I fired him.).  I think some are just burned out, and should be taking a mental break.  

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I agree it's overused. I think it's because phrases like "narcissistic tendencies" isn't as familiar a phrase.  I have a toxic family with 1 family member who doesn't meet all of the criteria for clinical narcissism, but meets most of the criteria.  I'm also prone to more precise thinking and speech, so I clarify using the phrase when I talk about it.

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think some are just burned out, and should be taking a mental break.  

I totally agree, but how? My husband can't not work, I can't pause my kids. And I've got it pretty easy. Others have moved in with toxic family members to avoid going homeless and some are going without essential medicine. I want to take my kids on a vacation and eat well and sleep at night. I want to not be in pain. But I can't. That's depressing. My pain alone is extremely depressing.

(Please note I'm trying to be dramatic for a point).

[sweet2ndchance]

15 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

My father was treated for depression in the 70s.   There is a huge difference in awareness.  

But I've also encountered drs who will go for the easiest "give them a pill to make them feel good and go away"  (including one of my pediatricians - I fired him.).  I think some are just burned out, and should be taking a mental break.  

 

I agree some need a mental break but others I think are conditioned to just prescribe something whether by their peers or by their patients. When I was a military wife, it was a common saying that if ibuprofen, oxycodone, Prozac or Xanax doesn't fix it, military doctors don't know what to do with it. Now, that is a gross overgeneralization of course but it sure seemed like every other person was prescribed one or more other those drug or those type of drugs at least once while in the military. It is entirely possible that the military and their families have a higher rate of depression, anxiety, etc. Absolutely! But I also know how hard it is to feel listened to by military doctors. And a lot of doctors go through the military to pay for part or all of their medical school so their training goes with them when they become civilian doctors.

Now I go to a great doctor that was a military doctor before he got out and got his own practice so I'm not saying they are all just pill pushers. But boy did it feel that way sometimes when all you wanted was to be heard by the military doctor and not just handed a prescription and sent on your merry way.