Help with fostering kittens - meaning not being a foster failure

[shawthorne44]

Our good friends live in a dump-zone for pets.   They live off the first dirt road off a major road exiting a major suburb.  

The best cat I ever had was born and raised in the bedroom of a 11-year-old girl who socialized and handled them often.   DD aged 11 has wanted a cat and our jealous dog died recently.   So we told our friends to keep an eye out for a pregnant cat.  They didn't spot her when she was pregnant, but she has given birth and the kittens are maybe 3-4 weeks old.   We'll be moving the whole family over here when the mama can be nabbed and we have a kittening box prepared for them.   Or are they too old for that now?   

I've had several cats throughout my life, and I know cats.    Never had a kitten family though, so kittens are new.   My main question is about the fostering.   We will want to adopt out the kittens that we aren't keeping.   How is best to go about doing that?    I've sometimes seen the foster events at Petsmarts where the foster parents bring cat and dogs.   Can we be a part of that somehow?  Or do we have to be members of some group.   I have vague memories that it is better to charge something rather than just giving away so that the people are serious.  I guess we could charge whatever the vaccines cost.    I've never had a pet that could reproduce.   Would it be helpful to go to the shelter and talk to them?   

I've stressed the socializing aspect to DD and she even had the idea of setting up a booth in a park with a sign, "Free Kitten Cuddles"   I told her that they might run away.  But I guess those foster events are kind of similar.  

We are also getting new cat supplies.   We were a one pet (dog) family for 10-years so my cat supplies disappeared.  The water fountains are so much nicer now!   We have a metal one arriving today.    Oh, how I love and hate Amazon.  

 

[happi duck]

When we fostered it was always through a shelter.  The kittens belonged to the shelter.  We kept the kittens until they were old enough to be fixed, get certain vaccines iirc and then adopted.  

We took the kittens to the shelter's vet and it went on their tab.  They often needed meds (water stuff from drinking from puddles iirc).  The kittens or pregnant mom would come to us after being tested for feline AIDS and leukemia.

I think Petsmart works with groups that can verify testing etc.

[Pawz4me]

I *think* that Petsmart only works with registered 501(c)(3) rescues. 

You absoluely, definitely want to charge a small adoption fee. It is very much a thing that people who train dogs for fighting will seek out free kittens/cats/puppies/dogs as bait animals.

You might try reaching out to small rescue groups in your area. They may help you advertise or allow you to come to any adoption events they hold.

[Katy]

Cats outside for that long are likely to be wild, it’s probably too late. 

[happi duck]

It's been years but they always told us to use old fashioned clay litter but I get remember why.

Another med I remembered was for worms.

I liked to have a way to contain the kittens when we wouldn't be home.  We used a couple huge rabbit (?) cages from the shelter.  We added ferret hammocks.  We also had a big free standing tent.

I often used cardboard can boxes from Aldi as disposable litter boxes to keep everything super clean.

[shawthorne44]

Bait animals?!?   That is horrible!   My worst worry was the people not being prepared.   

I hope its not too late.  Well, we can do our best and if they are feral already we can try again.     

[cjzimmer1]

16 minutes ago, Katy said:

Cats outside for that long are likely to be wild, it’s probably too late. 

The kittens are only 3-4 weeks old.  You absolutely can tame a kitten that young.  Every cat I ever owned was "stolen" from a feral mother and all were older than that.  I never had a problem with getting them tamed and adjusted to house life. 

[cjzimmer1]

I would look around and see if there are any rescue groups or even the humane society that would be willing to take them on.  Many times they have to turn away animals due to lack of fosters but if you tell them you are willing to foster it's much easier for them.  They'd cover supplies and do the vetting of potential adopters and you can just care for the cat family.

[Spryte]

6 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I would look around and see if there are any rescue groups or even the humane society that would be willing to take them on.  Many times they have to turn away animals due to lack of fosters but if you tell them you are willing to foster it's much easier for them.  They'd cover supplies and do the vetting of potential adopters and you can just care for the cat family.

This is what I would do, too.

We foster through a rescue, and they cover supplies, vet care, worming, shots, spay/neuter and microchipping. And they have websites for the animals to get their cute faces out there. We do meet and greets as they are set up, and take them to adoption events. The fee with our org is around $300, and they have an excellent reputation around here. Worth every penny.

Miraculously, we have never foster failed. We came close when I fell in love with a puppy, but I held firm and didn’t fail. 🤣 We have plenty of adult animals already, ha!

Good luck! 

[shawthorne44]

 

Ok, I just filled out the form for the local Humane Society.   They said Cats and Dogs but the form seemed to be about fostering dogs.  But they had lots of free-form text boxes so I used the last one to say what I was wanting to do.  Like you said, since I'm volunteering and I have the pets in mind maybe it will go smoothly.   

I'd heard bad things about them, but that was years ago.   I had a couple of people tell me that they were turned down from adopting because they hadn't adopted an animal in years.  The reason they hadn't adopted in years was because their pet died of old age.  But, I guess that won't really effect me.  

ETA:  My hope is that these kittens will turn out extremely friendly and human-oriented and therefore won't have a problem finding a forever home and keeping it.   We even have neighbors (children and adults) lined up to come cuddle the kittens.   

Edited May 23, 2022 by shawthorne44

[fraidycat]

It is not too late. Depending on whether the momma kitty was a "dump cat" or grew up feral, and her "person"ality, she may be easy, or not. But time & patience is the key for her. 

As for the kittens, they can be tamed within a few days. All of my house cats (5) came from feral parents as 3-4 week old kittens. We have one spicier one, and four "potatoes". The spicy one is still sweet and loving, but she needs to be approached slowly or she will skitter and/or swipe. And, I believe her issue is that we had to do topical meds on her butt (prolapse) when she was tiny that probably stung a little bit, so she has some trauma from that.

You can try getting the cats registered with your local humane society for adoption, and they will most likely be very grateful you are willing to foster in your home because it is the season for humane societies everywhere to get run over with cats and kittens.

 

[Tanaqui]

Even true feral kittens can be pretty easily tamed as late as 8 weeks, and with more effort up until three or four months. (After that it gets a LOT harder. It's not really true that there's no possibility of taming an adult feral, but the cost/benefit analysis doesn't really add up for most of us, and even then you probably won't end up with an affectionate snugglebug, more like a roomie who tolerates your presence... but it depends on the starting point. Many feral cats are only semi-feral, and how "semi" they are affects how friendly towards humans they can become.)

I would not, under any circumstances, release these kittens to new homes until they've been altered and had their first round of shots. You can do that as early as 13 weeks if they hit their weight - that's around when you'll be betting Mom done. I strongly recommend you find out what low cost options exist in your area.

If you let these kittens go without getting them done, then dollars to doughnuts the new families, with the best of intentions, won't get them done before at least they all have one more litter. I only once let a pair of kittens go without getting them done first, and that's because we had a sudden family illness right after I brought them into my home and I had to scramble to find a new foster home. (For reference, they were about 16 weeks old, semi-feral, and within a week I had them using a box, playing with a fish-on-a-string, purring when I showed up, and tolerating light pets as they ate. They weren't exactly friendly yet, but I had high hopes.)

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

Cats outside for that long are likely to be wild, it’s probably too late. 

It is absolutely not too late. They aren't even a month old yet. The mom's temperament is uncertain, to be sure. But, she is letting this other family help her - or at least she doesn't run when they are near. That is a good sign.

I have tamed a feral cat - it just took time. Not all can be tamed, but many of them can be.

 

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I've stressed the socializing aspect to DD and she even had the idea of setting up a booth in a park with a sign, "Free Kitten Cuddles"   I told her that they might run away.  But I guess those foster events are kind of similar.   

 

I don't recommend that. Your family handling them and playing with them will be sufficient socialization.  Caring for the kittens means not exposing them to environments where they have the opportunity to run away. The purpose of foster events is to find homes for cats that are already socialized, not to socialize them.

I recommend you call your vet and talk to them. Our vet lets his current clients know when he knows kittens are available through families knows have taken care of mom and the kittens well - shots, check ups, flea treatment, etc.

[Katy]

Okay, lots of people are saying it can be done, but we tried with two week old kittens and we weren’t successful with any of them. 

[shawthorne44]

The children where they are born have already been handling them, so we might be good.   
Also, we'll have the power of an eager 11-year-old girl on our side.  

About 4 years ago DH and DD came home with a kitten.   Some irresponsible friends of ours had a cat that had kittens.   Supposedly they were still kittens.   Turns out it was an adult cat that was just really small and not very friendly.  Having the adult that dislikes cats and a child that loves all cats pick out the cat was a bad idea.   We live in a pier-and-beam house and DH was using a whole in the floor to work under the house and the cat escaped.   I expect because she'd loved on it too much.  Some neighbors ended up adopting it.  That cat had been fully grown and already pretty feral.  
 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I would look around and see if there are any rescue groups or even the humane society that would be willing to take them on.  Many times they have to turn away animals due to lack of fosters but if you tell them you are willing to foster it's much easier for them.  They'd cover supplies and do the vetting of potential adopters and you can just care for the cat family.

This. There is a lot of care needed for new kittens—if you’re lucky, only vaccines and surgery to be altered, but that alone is expensive. We found that parasites were very common in kittens from feral moms and sometimes that was a lot of vet visits to deal with those. Also a TON of work keeping the cat area clean at home so that coccidia would not transfer from the fosters to our house cats via us or the kids as vectors. I would not consider adopting them out unfixed, nor will any reputable rescue. I feel hopeful you will find a rescue that will let you foster through them and use their services. 

[Jenny in Florida]

In terms of 3-4 weeks old being "too late," I can only say that we successfully integrated a feral kitten older than that into our home. He shoved into our lives by stowing away in the engine compartment of my car. When we extracted him and took him to the closest vet to be looked over, the initial estimate based on his size was that he was about 7 or 8 weeks old. The vet later revised that upwards a bit once the kitten was calmer and she was able to get a look at his teeth. 

He lived in our hall bathroom, isolated from our other cats, for a couple of weeks while we waited to make sure he hadn't given my husband any nasty diseases by biting him during the rescue effort. I went in and spent some time with him a few times a day. At first, he hid from me and hissed any time I entered the room. But I just kept going in and sitting on the floor and tempting him with wet cat food on a spoon, and eventually he decided I was okay. 

We then moved him into the living room in a large kennel we had left over from the dog's puppy days. Both cats and the dog could see and smell him, and everyone had a chance to get used to each other without actually having contact. (The humans continued to take him into another room to cuddle him a couple of times every day.)

He's now one of the sweetest cats I've had. He's shy around outsiders, but very friendly with us. 

So, yes, it can be done. It takes patience, but it can be done.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Jenny in Florida

[Tanaqui]

Katy, were those two weekers still with their mom, or had they been removed? Either situation will have its own unique challenges you have to adapt to in order to end up with well-socialized cats.

For the record, I'm not a fan of removing even feral kittens from Mom until a minimum age of 8 weeks, but even the most ardent early-removal rescue organizations don't advocate for earlier than six weeks unless there is a special situation.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Tanaqui]

re: cat bites -

Obviously it's too late for Jenny in Florida to take this advice, but for everybody else, cat bites are ALWAYS serious, especially if they draw blood. You may be able to get out of an ER visit if it's a shallow bite from a cat you know has been vaccinated and it does NOT draw blood, but if it draws blood you have to go to the doctor immediately. Cat bites get infected very easily, and those infections escalate rapidly, as in "grave risk of life and limb" within a day or less. If you *do* decide to wait-and-watch on a bite that doesn't draw blood, you need to wash the wound thoroughly, apply some heavy antibiotics, and be prepared to move at the very first sign of infection. That infection will not clear up on its own.

This is true for all animal bites, but especially cats. (You'll also require a re-up on your tetanus vax.)

Edited May 23, 2022 by Tanaqui

[stephanier.1765]

3 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

He's now one of the sweetest cats I've had. He's shy around outsiders, but very friendly with us. 

This describes the feral pregnant cat we took in to a tee. She will climb into our laps and drape herself over our shoulders seeking attention. The vet thinks she was 8 months old when she had a litter so even that late cats can become great companions. However, she will run and hide whenever anyone comes over. My son's gf visits at least once a week and this cat will still head for the hills whenever she drops in.

@Jenny in Florida Her coloring reminds me a lot of the coloring of your boy. She's the one on the right.

 

 

 

[Jann in TX]

33 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

re: cat bites -

Obviously it's too late for Jenny in Florida to take this advice, but for everybody else, cat bites are ALWAYS serious, especially if they draw blood. You may be able to get out of an ER visit if it's a shallow bite from a cat you know has been vaccinated and it does NOT draw blood, but if it draws blood you have to go to the doctor immediately. Cat bites get infected very easily, and those infections escalate rapidly, as in "grave risk of life and limb" within a day or less. If you *do* decide to wait-and-watch on a bite that doesn't draw blood, you need to wash the wound thoroughly, apply some heavy antibiotics, and be prepared to move at the very first sign of infection. That infection will not clear up on its own.

This is true for all animal bites, but especially cats. (You'll also require a re-up on your tetanus vax.)

This!

After we lost a cat to old age we adopted another shelter cat (young adult male about 1 yr old).  We also owned 2 German Shepherds (raised by the other cat and fine with strange cats too)...  Coming home from the shelter with the new cat I asked my daughters (9 and 7) to NOT let the dogs inside for a while so the kitty could get a chance to smell around first... WELL youngest was not listening and ran to the back door and let the dogs in as soon as I took kitty out of carrier!  Kitty climbed the nearest thing-- ME!   I ended up at my Dr's office less than 15 minutes later getting jabbed with an antibiotic and barely missed an ER trip.  I had 'Cat Scratch Fever'-- my temp was 102 and the infection was spreading quickly.  Cat had bit and clawed (puncture wounds)  mainly my neck/jaw...

Fast forward 1 week later-- Kitty finally came out of the 'kitty safe zone' and started his 18 year reign over the dogs of our house.  I was on antibiotics for 3 weeks.

--

One of our cats was a feral kitten--found wedged inside a car frame at a local shopping center-- maybe 4 weeks old at the time.  It took FOREVER to tame her (from my perspective this never really happened)!  She has extremely soft (long hair) and loves to be pet-- except when she doesn't!   If you dare pet her you are taking your life into your own hands-- one pet and she is purring- the next pet and you are bleeding!  We always let her make the first move!  She is almost 4 years old now...

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

re: cat bites -

Obviously it's too late for Jenny in Florida to take this advice, but for everybody else, cat bites are ALWAYS serious, especially if they draw blood. You may be able to get out of an ER visit if it's a shallow bite from a cat you know has been vaccinated and it does NOT draw blood, but if it draws blood you have to go to the doctor immediately. Cat bites get infected very easily, and those infections escalate rapidly, as in "grave risk of life and limb" within a day or less. If you *do* decide to wait-and-watch on a bite that doesn't draw blood, you need to wash the wound thoroughly, apply some heavy antibiotics, and be prepared to move at the very first sign of infection. That infection will not clear up on its own.

This is true for all animal bites, but especially cats. (You'll also require a re-up on your tetanus vax.)

We weren't 100% sure the cat had even bitten my husband. It might have been a bite, might have been a scratch, might have been my husband scraping his arm on a rough edge under the car while trying to grab the cat. The vet looked at it, suggested washing thoroughly and slapping some antibiotic ointment on it and watching both the bite/scratch/scrape and the kitten carefully. It turned out to be exactly nothing.

Having, myself, landed in the ER following an especially bad encounter with the cranky cat who lived with us for 18 years, I am familiar with the dangers.

[Jenny in Florida]

36 minutes ago, Jann in TX said:

. . . loves to be pet-- except when she doesn't!   If you dare pet her you are taking your life into your own hands-- one pet and she is purring- the next pet and you are bleeding!  

This is exactly how the aforementioned cranky cat-beast who lived with us for 18 years behaved. The cat used to sleep in my son's bed, and my son adored the cat. But every now and then, we'd hear frantic, miserable crying because the cat had decided he was done being petted and punctured my son's arm. 

I'd go wash and disinfect and apply band aids as necessary. They would make up, and life went on as normal until the next time.

This same cat sent not one, but two vet techs to urgent care. After the first time Piggers bit/scratched someone during an exam, the vet put a note in his file that no one should attempt to handle him unless he was sedated. A brave young man decided to ignore that warning once while the cat was boarding, thinking they were friends. Even when he was in his final days and getting fairly lethargic, Piggers still managed to take a pretty good swipe at the vet. (For the record: No one was ever seriously injured. The urgent care visits were precautionary. And we apologized sincerely and profusely for his behavior and volunteered to cover any expenses.) 

I'm actually slightly allergic to cats, despite having had one or two of them in my home for most of the last four decades. So, I was always extremely careful when interacting with Piggers, but he still managed to get hold of me every now and then. The last time he really got me was not too long after the mastectomy, and he punctured/shredded the arm on the side where I had lost lymph nodes. We happened to have family visiting at the time, one of whom is a former nurse. I didn't want to derail the plans we had for the evening, so I did the usual washing and disinfecting thing, and kept trying to downplay the situation. However, my husband's cousin kept grabbing my arm to check it and expressed increasing amounts of concern as the evening (and the swelling) progressed. I finally gave in and went to the ER, where they X-rayed to make sure Piggers hadn't left a tooth or claw under the skin, then sent me home with oral antibiotics and instructions to follow up with my regular doctors. 

I still cried my eyes out when Piggers passed away late last year. 

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

In terms of 3-4 weeks old being "too late," I can only say that we successfully integrated a feral kitten older than that into our home. He shoved into our lives by stowing away in the engine compartment of my car. When we extracted him and took him to the closest vet to be looked over, the initial estimate based on his size was that he was about 7 or 8 weeks old. The vet later revised that upwards a bit once the kitten was calmer and she was able to get a look at his teeth. 

He lived in our hall bathroom, isolated from our other cats, for a couple of weeks while we waited to make sure he hadn't given my husband any nasty diseases by biting him during the rescue effort. I went in and spent some time with him a few times a day. At first, he hid from me and hissed any time I entered the room. But I just kept going in and sitting on the floor and tempting him with wet cat food on a spoon, and eventually he decided I was okay. 

We then moved him into the living room in a large kennel we had left over from the dog's puppy days. Both cats and the dog could see and smell him, and everyone had a chance to get used to each other without actually having contact. (The humans continued to take him into another room to cuddle him a couple of times every day.)

He's now one of the sweetest cats I've had. He's shy around outsiders, but very friendly with us. 

So, yes, it can be done. It takes patience, but it can be done.

That’s similar to what we did. Start out in a small space and gradually widen their territory as they can handle it while you leave the small space open so they can retreat to it when they get stressed. 

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, Katy said:

Okay, lots of people are saying it can be done, but we tried with two week old kittens and we weren’t successful with any of them. 

I think that it’s rare not to be able to socialize two week old kittens. I’ve heard many stories of cats being socialized at a variety of ages. The younger they are, the easier it is to do, but I know of full grown cats with an estimated age of 2-3 years being socialized to at least one person and one home. 

[shawthorne44]

Well, we have them home.  We had just gotten the minimum necessary for them setup and then we heard that the mom was AWOL and one of the kittens had died.   That was something I was unprepared for.  So I called the vet and she said kitten formula would be fine.   So, we ran to the feed store to get the formula and on the way over to the pickup the kittens we got a call that the mom was found and captured.   The mom was in a have-a-heart trap and we put the kittens in with her and most of them happily nursed.   She was even purring.   She had been very agitated on the way home.  I can't say I blame her.   Where she gave birth must have been stressful too.  So, I am hoping that is why she was a bad mom.   When moving her to the kittening box, she went crazy and wanted to hide.   I eventually got her into the kittening box and we tossed the kittens in too and closed the flaps.  We let everyone calm down a bit.   Momma was in the far back behind the litter tray.    So, I pulled that forward a bit.   Then we grabbed the kittens and tried to formula feed and cuddled with them.   One was quite eager for formula.  The momma seems to tolerate the kittens but doesn't seem concerned when one is crying and not drinking.  She does let them drink though.   

I will add photos tomorrow.   

One thing funny.  The family has a little girl who was eagerly handing the kittens over to us.  The little girl had gotten to like the kittens and was sad that they were leaving.   She knows and likes my daughter so that made it a little better.  Then she was told that they were getting chicks.   So, when we arrived she was eagerly handing the kittens over.  

 

 

[shawthorne44]

Photos

[shawthorne44]

There are three orange and two gray tabbies.   The light orange seems to love to purr.  
In the gray tabbies, one has a white stripe on the nose.  I haven't figured out how to tell the other two orange ones apart yet.   
The really large box that the automatic litter box came in works really well as a kittening box.  Particularly for a feral momma.  I have elbow length silicon oven mitts and we started out using those to get a kitten.   But it isn't necessary.    
Today we will weigh the kittens and I'll call the vet and we'll schedule the needed vet visits.    

On the drive home, DD had been quite concerned about the kittens on the drive home.   One had died, so that seemed reasonable.   Then one would go to sleep and she'd worry it died.  Fortunately, the weather is only mildly warm right now because my car's AC isn't blowing very cold.   But it was a tad warm in the car on the drive home.  Fine for us, but I was worried about the kittens.  Everyone seemed to perk up when we got them into the house.   

I am now eagerly awaiting DD waking up so I can pet some kitties.  

ETA:   The gray tabby in her arms is going to be called Batman.   Her dad and I lobbied for Batcat.   We used to have a hen called Bathen.   But, no, she wanted Batman even if it is a girl.  

Edited May 24, 2022 by shawthorne44

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

There are three orange and two gray tabbies.   The light orange seems to love to purr.  
In the gray tabbies, one has a white stripe on the nose.  I haven't figured out how to tell the other two orange ones apart yet.   
The really large box that the automatic litter box came in works really well as a kittening box.  Particularly for a feral momma.  I have elbow length silicon oven mitts and we started out using those to get a kitten.   But it isn't necessary.    
Today we will weigh the kittens and I'll call the vet and we'll schedule the needed vet visits.    

On the drive home, DD had been quite concerned about the kittens on the drive home.   One had died, so that seemed reasonable.   Then one would go to sleep and she'd worry it died.  Fortunately, the weather is only mildly warm right now because my car's AC isn't blowing very cold.   But it was a tad warm in the car on the drive home.  Fine for us, but I was worried about the kittens.  Everyone seemed to perk up when we got them into the house.   

I am now eagerly awaiting DD waking up so I can pet some kitties

Is mama cat letting them nurse?

[shawthorne44]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Is mama cat letting them nurse?

Yes.    
It is weird though, she seems to prefer to find someplace to lay with both her back and her belly up against something.   So, it makes it hard for the kittens to nurse.   But if I pull the thing against her belly away, she isn't bothered when more kittens come in to drink.  But she doesn't exactly help them.   Like she doesn't lift her back leg to let them under her, and as you can see she isn't really laying on her side.  But, the kittens were definitely getting milk.   In the group photo we'd taken one of the orange kittens out because he was hogging access to the nipples and not drinking.   I don't think he was being territorial I think he fell asleep.   So, that is something we are going to need to monitor, making sure all the kittens have access to milk.   

[stephanier.1765]

We thought our mama feral cat was a bad mom, too. She was only 8 months old at the time so we thought was the problem because she would leave them for hours. At first, we were still letting her outside to go potty since she was feral but after one scare of her being gone a long time and the kittens crying for her, we never let her out again. Still she would leave them alone in the house for long periods of time, even if they were crying. We know she could hear them. So now I'm wondering if that's just normal for cats. Maybe they need breaks from their kids just like we do. Anyway, she must have been caring well enough for them because they grew into chubby little kittens and then into sleek grown up cats. Good luck with your brood!

[shawthorne44]

The cats are in my daughter's room and she has a loft bed and underneath the bed she has a bunch of art supplies.   She surrounded the bed with tall cardboard to keep the cats out of there.  I didn't think that would do anything, but I thought we'd just keep the mama contained.   I just walked by the room and heard noise.  It was the mama fighting through the crack in the carboard to hide under daughter's bed.   The kittens are huddled together at the back and seem content.  I counted 5 of them, the right number.  

The kittens are interested in the kitten food.   I think they are attracted to the smell.   I read that when people want to encourage weaning they mix formula and kitten food.   I am going to try just putting a little bowl of kitchen formula out for them and we'll see what happens.  If they are almost old enough for kitten food mixed with formula then they are probably old enough to drink out of a bowl.  

[shawthorne44]

Anyone know what to call the color pattern on the orange one?   

[KSera]

23 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

The kittens are interested in the kitten food.   I think they are attracted to the smell.   I read that when people want to encourage weaning they mix formula and kitten food.   I am going to try just putting a little bowl of kitchen formula out for them and we'll see what happens.  If they are almost old enough for kitten food mixed with formula then they are probably old enough to drink out of a bowl.  

Do you have a small scale you are weighing them on? Unless there is a weight gain problem, I wouldn’t be attempting to replace their mother’s milk with any kind of formula. If they were orphaned, that would be different, but they are fortunate that they have the benefit of their mom being there. They still have quite awhile they should be with her before being separated. As important as human socialization is for making good pet cats, there’s other important socialization that they get from their moms that is hard for people to replicate. 
 

eta: I couldn’t see the pictures before. So cute! It’s hard to see well in that picture, but the orange looks like a classic tabby to me.

 

etaa: here’s a picture (not mine) of a grown orange classic tabby: 

Edited May 24, 2022 by KSera

[shawthorne44]

That is lovely.  I've never had a tabby before.   I had an orange one but I don't remember the pattern.   Fluffy, very very fluffy with a white belly.   

I guess my worry is about her being a bad mom.  One of the kittens did die and the others were very hungry when we got them.   Then with her running off as far as she could, I worried.  We'll watch them closely.   Ideal would be for them to get their mother's milk.   Shoot, I didn't even give my baby any formula.   But kittens dying of malnourishment is worse.   At the moment, they seem good though.  

ETA: We do have a small kitchen scale.   The Harbor Freight one preferred by drug dealers everywhere.   
 

Edited May 24, 2022 by shawthorne44

[KSera]

24 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

ETA: We do have a small kitchen scale.   The Harbor Freight one preferred by drug dealers everywhere

I weigh daily when I have new kittens. I keep a log so I can catch any issues right away. Around four weeks or so you can weigh less often. Since these are new to you, I would weigh daily until you’re sure they’re in a good pattern. 

[Katy]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:42 PM, Tanaqui said:

Katy, were those two weekers still with their mom, or had they been removed? Either situation will have its own unique challenges you have to adapt to in order to end up with well-socialized cats.

For the record, I'm not a fan of removing even feral kittens from Mom until a minimum age of 8 weeks, but even the most ardent early-removal rescue organizations don't advocate for earlier than six weeks unless there is a special situation.

I can't remember if she had been hit by a car or what, but I know the mother had unexpectedly died.  They did survive, but even after being bottle fed they weren't tame.

[shawthorne44]

Last evening we all cuddled with the kittens while watching TV.   DD made a batch of kitten formula.   We are offering it to all of them and three were uninterested, one was a little interested and one was very hungry.  

When I went to bed last night, the mom was still in hiding.   DH and DD were still up.   I heard DD say the word 'poop'.    I am pretty sure she was worried the mama cat would poop in her hiding place.   So, DH got her out and locked her in the box.  So, the mama cat spent all night with her kittens.   Yeah!   We'll watch to make sure they all have momma feeding time.  

The new thing in the household is having others bring you stuff because you 'can't get up', and you can't get up because you have a kitten sleeping on you.   

[shawthorne44]

Well, it turns out the momma cat escaped in the night.   The problem is finding a place that is big enough for a litter box and for them to move around, AND also that locks the momma in with her babies.     Fortunately, we have a broody jail for our hens.   It is around 3'x'4'x3'.   Walls and ceiling are hardware cloth.   The main trouble will be that the door is hen-sized and we normally just pick it up to deal with the food and water inside.  So, we'll bring that inside, and put it in the mudroom that is under construction now.   I really do want the kittens to have momma's milk.  
So, once DH moves the broody jail into the house, I'll set it up and he'll find the momma and put her in there.   
At the moment, I have the gray kittens and DD has the orange ones.   We don't intend to segregate them, but the orange ones come to the front of the box, so they are gotten together.   

[stephanier.1765]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, it turns out the momma cat escaped in the night.   The problem is finding a place that is big enough for a litter box and for them to move around, AND also that locks the momma in with her babies.     Fortunately, we have a broody jail for our hens.   It is around 3'x'4'x3'.   Walls and ceiling are hardware cloth.   The main trouble will be that the door is hen-sized and we normally just pick it up to deal with the food and water inside.  So, we'll bring that inside, and put it in the mudroom that is under construction now.   I really do want the kittens to have momma's milk.  
So, once DH moves the broody jail into the house, I'll set it up and he'll find the momma and put her in there.   
At the moment, I have the gray kittens and DD has the orange ones.   We don't intend to segregate them, but the orange ones come to the front of the box, so they are gotten together.   

Will you leave it open in the mud room so she can get a break from her kittens? I think mother cats need the occasional bit of distance from her babies so they can mentally recharge before going back to being swarmed by her young. I think the idea of having a restricted space for the babies inside a closed room is a great idea.

The one thing I learned when going through this is that having kittens is stressful. I swear I worried about them just as much as I ever did about my own babies. Good luck!

[shawthorne44]

The mudroom doesn't have an interior door yet.   So, the momma will have to be with her babies.  
Although, she can get breaks when we cuddle the kittens.    

[shawthorne44]

DH is asleep in an office chair with a roll of tape behind his head.   He was cuddling two of the kittens and one climbed by behind his head and fell asleep.  He doesn't want to crush it or wake it, so he put the tape there to protect it.   He never sleeps during the day.   Before he fell asleep, he told me about it.  I said, "The training has begun.   Bahahahaha"   

[shawthorne44]

In case anyone is curious, this is our setup at the moment.   That is pretty much how the momma is at all times.   Although DH said that last night he did see her on her side.   His theory is that she was full of milk and was uncomfortable on her belly.    It is funny that the broody jail just happened to fit in the soon-to-be mudroom shower.    Everyone has been good about using the litter box.   The mom is pretty mean.    We have to leave a shield outside the door.    Then when we need to do something like change the litter, we hold it up between us otherwise she charges and attacks with her claws.   The second she'd not nursing, she's going to the shelter.    That wasn't our plan, but I don't want the kittens picking up any training beyond using the litterbox from the momma.   

ETA: that is a little orange kitten head you see over the food.  They don't seem to be eating it but a couple are interested in it.  
 

Edited May 27, 2022 by shawthorne44

[Acorn]

They are adorable, thank you for fostering.  Mama isn’t being mean, but she is scared. She has definite instincts to hide from you and is trying to protect her kittens. Even after weaning, she will teach washing and play limits. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Acorn

[shawthorne44]

She really couldn't care less about the kittens.   Grabbing the kittens isn't a problem.   She also wants to hide *from* the kittens.  

We have their first vet appointment scheduled.   The vet said that we are doing everything right and to *not* bring the mom.  

ETA: She also isn't cleaning them.   We already had to give them a bath, which we weren't planning on doing.  

Edited May 27, 2022 by shawthorne44

[happi duck]

Is mama doing the licking to help kittens eliminate?  Otherwise you might need to do that with a wet washcloth.

Mama is probably scared and inexperienced, possibly injured.  It might help if you can stop considering her mean and uncaring.  Ime, cats don't work that way.

To make litter changing super quick consider swapping instead of cleaning the litter box.

Mama might be doomed at a shelter.  If you can't work with her consider trap, neuter, release.  Though she wasn't feral?  She was dumped?  If so, poor thing has reason to hate humans.  I hope you can eventually work with her.

[shawthorne44]

Litter swapping is a good idea.   At the moment we are just using lids to printer paper boxes since the litter thingy won't fit in the broody jail.   I did get the water fountain in there today, so there is that.  The family is buying kitten toys and also some canned food for the momma.  

The momma was likely born to a dumped cat.  There isn't anything tame about her.  The trouble is, I don't even want to be in the same room with her.  So, working with her isn't an option.  Our friends have tried to do the trap, neuter, release for the dumped cats.    The cat population will get big, and then something, probably a coyote, will come through and then the cat population goes to almost zero. (Repeat)   So, I'm not sure releasing is that much more humane.  

I just realized that they are very small for their age.  They weigh 40% less than the charts say the min. expected for their age.   The momma cat looks a normal size.  I obviously not going to weigh the momma.  
 

[Terabith]

29 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

Litter swapping is a good idea.   At the moment we are just using lids to printer paper boxes since the litter thingy won't fit in the broody jail.   I did get the water fountain in there today, so there is that.  The family is buying kitten toys and also some canned food for the momma.  

The momma was likely born to a dumped cat.  There isn't anything tame about her.  The trouble is, I don't even want to be in the same room with her.  So, working with her isn't an option.  Our friends have tried to do the trap, neuter, release for the dumped cats.    The cat population will get big, and then something, probably a coyote, will come through and then the cat population goes to almost zero. (Repeat)   So, I'm not sure releasing is that much more humane.  

I just realized that they are very small for their age.  They weigh 40% less than the charts say the min. expected for their age.   The momma cat looks a normal size.  I obviously not going to weigh the momma.  
 

I do hope that you can get her spayed before she is returned to the outdoors.  

[KSera]

4 hours ago, happi duck said:

Mama might be doomed at a shelter.  If you can't work with her consider trap, neuter, release.  Though she wasn't feral?  She was dumped?  If so, poor thing has reason to hate humans.  I hope you can eventually work with her.

Shelters don't normally take feral cats. I would definitely contact a feral cat project that can help get her spayed before release. She shouldn't be put back out to have more kittens who next time might not be so lucky to be found and rescued. There's also no reason to have her euthanized just because it's possible a coyote might get her in the future. We don't ever let any of our cats go outside due to the danger of wildlife, but a feral cat living the rest of their life outdoors is better than just euthanizing them due to the potential danger.