Advice about sending a letter to public school admin about locker room policies

[TABmom]

Hi. We used to homeschool and I have been on the boards for a really long time. This year, for a lot of reasons, we started going to public school. I have an 8th grader, a 5th grader, and a 2nd grader.  I would like to ask the administration to reconsider not having private changing areas in the locker room. My 8th grader doesn’t care. He changed for gym without a problem BUT he said that 1/2 his class refused to change, even though that meant lowered grades. My 5th grader has 2 weeks of swimming and they told them they were not allowed to change inside a toilet stall. They HAD to change in front of everyone. She did it without complaint BUT I don’t think this is the best we can do. As a society, as a school, how do we teach them to stand up for themselves and their bodily autonomy and then in the next breath tell them they HAVE to get naked in front of people? How does this still exist in our consent-conscious society? Does anyone have any suggestions of things to mention? Or articles to read? I can’t think of what key words to search! Also, this is going to be a very, very polite letter not stirring things up at all. I have loved our experiences in this district- I used to be a teacher and I got a job in the same building as my younger kids as a para. I’m seriously considering getting my teaching certificate renewed and applying as a teacher. I do not want any negative interactions with anyone. But I feel this needs to be addressed. Thanks for any ideas or insight. This is the best place I could think of for ideas/discussion.

[Sneezyone]

Perhaps suggest that the school provide a link/email with recommendations for those who want to maintain more modesty like a) wear the swimsuit to school, b) bring an elasticized towel with straps (much like women used in our dorms way back when) and change under the towel, or c) help students find a buddy who can/will turn around and hold a towel/curtain for another. I assume they’re doing this to reduce the risk of a student being isolated and abused without anyone being around to see.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sneezyone

[DawnM]

My guess is that the changing policy is due to the amount of time it would take to have everyone change in the toilet stalls and taking turns.

I would not like that either.

I hope you get some positive feedback.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think before that I would walk her through some ways to change publicly but modestly.  Like, wearing their suits under their clothes until gym—at least the first change would be private.  

[mommyoffive]

I am flashing back to gym in high school.  We had swimming too and we all had to change in one room with no place to get an privacy.  I think we were most upset about the swimsuits that we had to wear though.  They were old old old swimsuits from maybe 1960 or 50.   Can they wear a swimsuit of their own and have it on under their clothes?

[Tanaqui]

There are two things I suspect the school will say to you in response:

First, that there is an added supervision problem if the students are in private changing areas rather than one common area, and second, that retrofitting the changing room to have stalls will cost money.

Those problems are not insurmountable, but they're not non-problems either - and it's not likely you'll see any policy change unless there's community pressure to fix these problems. Any complaint will have a better chance of being heard if you acknowledge this from the start.

[Clarita]

Good luck I remember talking about this in high school; nothing changed I think at some point they allowed changing in the bathroom stall, but we still only had 5-10min and 3 stalls. We ended up teaching my shy friend how to change under her gym shirt; you can also do it with a decent sized towel. 

[SKL]

I agree that it's ridiculous that this still exists.  When I was in jr. high & high school, everyone was forced to take a shower naked in one big shower room, while gym aides/teacher watched to make sure you did it right.  Unless you had your period, then you could use one of the few "private showers."  If you didn't comply, you failed and had to keep taking gym again until you passed.  I knew a girl who did not graduate because of not passing gym.  UGH the whole gym requirement is a big pet peeve.

Personally, after being touched while naked by the gym teacher, I used the private shower every day.  I figured it was unlikely they would make me prove I was on my period.

I'm not sure what it's like here nowadays ... my kids are waiving gym by doing other activities.  But I don't think they require kids to be naked in front of others if they don't want to.

I agree with suggestions to dress modestly, such as wearing a big long wearable towel while changing underneath.  As for approaching the administration, maybe do it in the form of a question - what can a girl do if locker room nudity is against her beliefs?  It seems a very reasonable question IMO.

[TABmom]

I do understand the problems from the schools perspective. They aren’t insurmountable though. 
 

The thing is, my dd is sortof ok with it. She’s not exceptionally modest. But even if it’s not a problem for my kids- it is a problem for some (as evidenced by kids refusing to change for gym). Even though it is not personal, I feel like it is an issue that should be considered and addressed. 

[Carrie12345]

I actually do fail to see why this is such a “difficult” thing for schools. Plywood and hinges are not impossibly expensive. Okay, they weren’t for decades.  Simple stalls with doors that span a decent height range to block the usual private parts are not complicated to build.  If they’re good enough for my favorite amusement park’s toilet stalls, they’re suitable for gym changing, lol.

Of course space can be an issue. But so is having a bunch of girls trying to arrange makeshift privacy.

As a grown woman, I do not take my clothes off in open locker rooms. And I don’t even have to spend 7+ hours 5 days a week with the other people in there. Yuck.

[kristin0713]

I'm pretty shocked that this is still an issue today. I remember changing in a bathroom stall in middle school after gym class because I was too embarrassed and self-conscious to change in the locker room, and that was just changing clothes, not out of a bathing suit! I would have been MORTIFIED to change after swimming in front of my peers. If my child were in this situation today, I would either allow them to not take the class (and I would take it up the ranks with the school as high as necessary) or teach them how to change discreetly under a big towel. It's possible with practice. Wow, I'm really speechless that kids are still being put in this situation at school. 

[kristin0713]

I'm coming back to say that I'm sorry I didn't answer your question. I think that writing a letter is a good place to start, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make. I don't have experience with navigating these things in the public school system. There is power in numbers so if you can get other parents on board, I think you have a higher chance of them addressing your concerns. 

[Soror]

We had to change in the open in PS highschool when I was a teen. It didn't bother me then but I see a huge issue with making it compulsory, 5000x more so when they are getting entirely naked. There were some private shower stalls and bathrooms students could use and I don't remember any grief if students chose to use those. The coaches were male and not in the dressing room with us. 

Here in Jr. High most of the kids don't change for gym, plenty of kids will just wear PE acceptable clothes to school so they don't have to mess with it. In highschool, they have to wear certain clothes and must change. I actually hadn't thought about the whole changing thing as neither of my kids have brought it up as an issue. I would assume that these days there would be an option to change in private but I'm not certain. I'll have to ask dd1 how that works. I agree with you--- how can we be hyper aware about consent and body autonomy and make kids get naked in front of each other. 

I'd be starting with the school counselor--- they *should* be more attuned to the emotional needs of students. I'd be bringing up a lot of buzzwords.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Soror

[Farrar]

I'm guessing both these practical issues make it much harder than most people here realize. You don't just need one more adult in there, you probably need several, especially to make sure students aren't going into all these private spaces together away from supervising eyes. Many schools can't find teachers for basic functions and courses. And at least at my high school, you would have needed to add at least 100+ changing spaces. Really, maybe more. There were usually 3-5 gym classes with 30 students going in each of the two gyms. Even if you assume some students won't demand a private space, that's a lot of spaces that will be needed. Doubling them up would double the changing time. When you've only got an hour for gym, doubling that 5-10 minute change time eats a huge chunk of the PE time on each end of class. 

I will add since it's come up a couple of times that I don't think your dd needs to object stridently to the policy for you to object. It's okay for you to push for something when she's ambivalent or even disagrees. You just can't use her as your "look at what it's doing to the poor children!" example.

[Tanaqui]

Plywood may not be that expensive, but lots of schools have trouble affording copy paper and textbooks. Plus - a pile of plywood is not a changing stall. You still need somebody to hammer it together, which costs money. And does this violate the fire code in some way? It might, if it makes egress harder. I don't know. (Edit: Actually, the more I think about my high school locker room, the more I think it might really violate the fire code. I'm not even sure where my school would have put changing stalls unless they took out all the lockers, and each changing stall would take up more space than one locker. You cannot simply cram a bunch of construction into a space, not safely. This is all stuff that has to be considered.)

For that matter, is plywood construction sturdy enough for a bunch of minimally supervised adolescents? Your favorite amusement park might actually see less wear and tear than your local school.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Plywood may not be that expensive, but lots of schools have trouble affording copy paper and textbooks. Plus - a pile of plywood is not a changing stall. You still need somebody to hammer it together, which costs money. And does this violate the fire code in some way? It might, if it makes egress harder. I don't know.

For that matter, is plywood construction sturdy enough for a bunch of minimally supervised adolescents? Your favorite amusement park might actually see less wear and tear than your local school.

What’s a fair price tag to make sure children don’t have to expose their bodies to random people against their better judgment?

Make shift solutions of their own should certainly be permissible, but none are foolproof.  And that was the nerve wracking part for me. We didn’t even have swimming though, so at least my *explicitly* private parts weren’t at risk for exposure.

If willingly sharing nudity is illegal at their ages, unwilling being put at risk of exposure shouldn’t be allowed, either!  
 

 

[Tanaqui]

Carrie, you can talk about a fair price all you want, but you can't make money exist where there isn't any. No amount of high-mindedness is going to make these problems go away.

If you want to get changing stalls in your local school locker room, you have to actually acknowledge these logistical problems and then come up with a plan to remedy them. You cannot simply say "But they shouldn't have to change where people might see them!" We might all agree with that general principle, but again - the money still has to come from somewhere.

Rhetoric doesn't solve this problem. Money does.

(Well, it solves half the problem. Finding the actual physical *space* is the other half. If this plan involves building a new addition that has a bigger changing room, that costs, you guessed it, more money. I think "kids dying in a fire because there was insufficient egress" is actually too high a cost to pay for nearly anything.)

[1234]

I’m surprised this is still a thing in schools. My dc are both adults now but their middle and high schools all allowed students to use the stalls if that is what they preferred. This was in two different states as well, so I just thought this was a thing of the past. Neither of my dc would have changed in front of other students so it would have been a huge deal for us. 

[Tanaqui]

I mean, look. If I wanted to make a list of things schoolkids shouldn't have to put up with due to lack of money, it'd be longer than my arm. They shouldn't have to go to school in a building without adequate ventilation, they shouldn't have to go into a cafeteria or gym without adequate (or any) soundproofing, they shouldn't have to go into a classroom without enough desks, they shouldn't have to attend a school without an on-site nurse during the ENTIRE school week, they shouldn't have to use ancient textbooks or, increasingly, NO textbooks even in classes that really ought to have them, they shouldn't have to go to bathrooms where the stalls don't have doors or where the facilities are filthy... I can't come up to the end of things they shouldn't have to put up with.

Figure out how much it costs to do the thing you want, find out how to get the money. Stalls in the changing room is a solvable problem, but only if you actually look at it as a problem to be solved instead of a thing that shouldn't need solving.

[Carrie12345]

24 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Carrie, you can talk about a fair price all you want, but you can't make money exist where there isn't any. No amount of high-mindedness is going to make these problems go away.

If you want to get changing stalls in your local school locker room, you have to actually acknowledge these logistical problems and then come up with a plan to remedy them. You cannot simply say "But they shouldn't have to change where people might see them!" We might all agree with that general principle, but again - the money still has to come from somewhere.

Rhetoric doesn't solve this problem. Money does.

(Well, it solves half the problem. Finding the actual physical *space* is the other half. If this plan involves building a new addition that has a bigger changing room, that costs, you guessed it, more money. I think "kids dying in a fire because there was insufficient egress" is actually too high a cost to pay for nearly anything.)

You’re not wrong-wrong. And neither am I. But I bet swimming pools are way more expensive than locker room solutions, so I do lack empathy on this one. 

[Clemsondana]

I've helped with some of the sports things that my kids have done, and I played a sport in middle and high school, so I've been in and out of locker rooms at public and private schools in a couple of states.  Most locker rooms are tiny - like, there wouldn't be enough space for everybody to sit down on the benches at one time if they wanted to.  Adding private stalls for each student would require a large building expansion in most of the facilities that I've seen.  When we were students, I think that part of how the teachers handled changing was to give us very little time.  There wasn't time to be looking around or commenting on others when you only had 5 minutes to change.  In my youth, the open rooms felt awkward but they also made it possible for the teacher to supervise from a distance (they sat in their office and looked out into the locker room every few minutes).  If we'd had private stalls, I worry that they'd have needed to be supervising more directly because it's easier for bullying to occur out of sight of the teachers.  The only time that I remember them coming out into the locker room was if a couple of people disappeared into the toilet area for too long and they needed to make sure that they were actually using the bathroom as opposed to doing something that they'd get in trouble for.  

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, but no. The swimming pool is already built. It's not like they can go to the store, get a return, and buy some changing rooms instead.

[Carrie12345]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

Yeah, but no. The swimming pool is already built. It's not like they can go to the store, get a return, and buy some changing rooms instead.

Again, not wrong-wrong. But no one cared enough to think it out, when they certainly could have. 
My school built an entire brand new 2nd gym that opened my senior year. Absolutely no thought to locker room solutions at all. Wasn’t important enough to the people in charge. But there was a coat check room for spectators’ outerwear!

Money wasn’t the issue.  So we’ll just keep telling ourselves it isn’t something to care about. 

 

[Emba]

I don’t have advice on the letter, unfortunately. I do wonder if you know, or can get to know, any of the school board members (in from a small town, it would be fairly easy to do here) in case taking it to the school board seems like it would help ( if admin doesn’t responded to your concerns).

i also think there might be private changing solutions that are less expensive and construction-heavy than stalls, involving curtains and tension rods, but so much depends on how the room is already set up.

[thewellerman]

Is this policy in writing?  If not, I would start by asking for the policy in a non confrontational way.  You need to know if this is teacher preference, school preference, tradition that no one has rethought, or an actual policy.  Then go from there. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

It’s a lot less expensive to learn how to change under a towel. And you will still get kids refusing to change for gym- not because of modesty issues but just because they don’t like gym. 

[JustEm]

34 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Yeah, but no. The swimming pool is already built. It's not like they can go to the store, get a return, and buy some changing rooms instead.

Yes, but if they can afford to run and maintain a pool during the school year they can afford a way to have private stalls. Pools are expensive on a yearly basis. 

[Bootsie]

I am glad that I am not a school administrator or PE teacher having to deal with this issue.  I do wonder how it is handled in countries outside the US.  I have generally found changing clothing in the open much more acceptable (even in coed situations) much more common in other parts of the world.  

[Tanaqui]

Again - it's not just the cost of the stalls themselves, it's the cost of the space to put them and, potentially, the cost of added supervision.

If the locker room was not designed for stalls it may not be safe to put stalls in the locker room. That would require new construction of a new locker room.

The pool, being an ongoing cost, has a line in the budget. New construction probably doesn't. That building has to be funded. They can't just say "Well, we won't run the pool for ten years and use the money we save to build a new locker room" (or however much it'll cost). Depending on how their budget works they may not even be allowed to do that.

Look, I'm not saying this is an unsolvable problem. I'm saying that we can't handwave it away.

[Annie G]

I agree that kids should have privacy to change if they want it.  But I also think the school will voice more opposition than just financial constraints. When I was a teen (in the 70’s) we had stalls and a lot of stuff went on because it was so hard to know what was going on in the stalls. For me it was bullying- a girl came into the stall and pinned me to the wall and threatened me. multiple times. Reported it, but since coach didn’t see it ( of course nobody else did or nobody would fess up to it) nothing happened. But there was also smoking in the stalls, theft, etc. 

It’s really a shame school locker rooms aren’t more civilized by now, ya know? 

[TravelingChris]

When I was in Jr High School, I had this sadistic, lesbian PE teacher who didn't just glance to make sure kids were safe.  Already, PE wasn't a very good class for me.  But to add mandatory showers in a big communal shower room with a leering PE teaching lady--- that was just so horrible.  

[SKL]

For those who consider private changing stalls an issue for supervision, do you also have concerns about toilet stalls?  If not, why is this different?

I don’t think they need a stall for every student, just a few to respect those who are uncomfortable with nudity.  Many kids are fine changing in the open.

Also I think it’s just arbitrary to prevent kids from using the toilet stalls to change if they want to.

[vonfirmath]

My son never cared much either way. But next year my daughter will be in middle school and she is taking Kickstart specifically to avoid changing. She gets "teased" enough she does not want to be naked in front of people looking for reasons to make fun of her. Kickstart has a uniform -- but you can layer it over what you are already wearing.

 

Note: When taking swimming at camp, she wore the swimsuit under her clothes and did not change after the class. She got dry and layered clothes over. There were a few private stalls for those who wanted to change clothes but most kids did not. However, they also did not get naked in the changing area. They just put on clothes and continued on damp.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Clemsondana]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

For those who consider private changing stalls an issue for supervision, do you also have concerns about toilet stalls?  If not, why is this different?

I don’t think they need a stall for every student, just a few to respect those who are uncomfortable with nudity.  Many kids are fine changing in the open.

Also I think it’s just arbitrary to prevent kids from using the toilet stalls to change if they want to.

I'm the first that mentioned increased supervision being perhaps needed.  I said that toilet stalls were the one place where the teacher sometimes had to check.  In my school, overt bullying and fights were rare, but most of it seemed to happen in bathrooms (not toilet stalls, but bathrooms were the least supervised part of the school).  The environment is different now - the kids' in my kids' youth groups talk about fights and kids getting punched on a weekly, if not daily, basis, in their schools.  These are not deprived inner-city schools.  Toilet stalls have less floor space since a toilet takes up most of it, so I'd think it would be harder for a couple of students to gang up on somebody.  I could be completely off base, obviously, but I hear about fights in stairwells and ends of hallways and I'd think that partitioned spaces might create similar issues.  

[skimomma]

My public school lockers rooms didn't even have stalls around the toilets!  Just a line of toilets against the wall.  You can bet we all made plans to take care of our business before or after gym class!  

 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I am glad that I am not a school administrator or PE teacher having to deal with this issue.  I do wonder how it is handled in countries outside the US.  I have generally found changing clothing in the open much more acceptable (even in coed situations) much more common in other parts of the world.  

I believe you’re probably right about other places. And it’s no big deal to some people, which is mostly fine, too.

When my kids were little, it was VERY mainstream to teach one’s children that bodies were for them to control, and the only people with a “right” to see them were medical professionals and, if the situation called for it, parents. (Using the term ‘right’ loosely, of course.). Our pediatrician doesn’t even make kids strip all the way down (under a gown) unless there’s a medical indication.
I can’t comprehend why we would change that for the sake of convenient crowd control.

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm the first that mentioned increased supervision being perhaps needed.  I said that toilet stalls were the one place where the teacher sometimes had to check.  In my school, overt bullying and fights were rare, but most of it seemed to happen in bathrooms (not toilet stalls, but bathrooms were the least supervised part of the school).  The environment is different now - the kids' in my kids' youth groups talk about fights and kids getting punched on a weekly, if not daily, basis, in their schools.  These are not deprived inner-city schools.  Toilet stalls have less floor space since a toilet takes up most of it, so I'd think it would be harder for a couple of students to gang up on somebody.  I could be completely off base, obviously, but I hear about fights in stairwells and ends of hallways and I'd think that partitioned spaces might create similar issues.  

People also have some control over how/when/where they use the bathroom, unlike a locker room in which they are required to be in a space with people they do not choose.  Bullying was rampant both in the locker room and bathrooms in my schools when I was growing up.  The locker rooms had no privacy but as soon as the teacher was not looking, it happened in the open.  Less supervision, due to more "private" spaces, allows more opportunities for bullying.  With bathrooms, I knew kids who didn't drink anything all day to avoid being in one.  I knew others that made a point of asking to use the restroom during class when a bully was very unlikely to be awaiting them.  Obviously, these are symptoms of bigger problems....bullying and inadequate supervision, but if I had a kid that was being bullied, I would be concerned about more unsupervised opportunities for it to occur.  It would be hard for me to balance that with modesty concerns. All that to say, I don't know what the solution is short of providing secured individual spaces for each single child which is likely cost/space prohibitive for most schools. 

 

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, skimomma said:

People also have some control over how/when/where they use the bathroom, unlike a locker room in which they are required to be in a space with people they do not choose.  Bullying was rampant both in the locker room and bathrooms in my schools when I was growing up.  The locker rooms had no privacy but as soon as the teacher was not looking, it happened in the open.  Less supervision, due to more "private" spaces, allows more opportunities for bullying.  With bathrooms, I knew kids who didn't drink anything all day to avoid being in one.  I knew others that made a point of asking to use the restroom during class when a bully was very unlikely to be awaiting them.  Obviously, these are symptoms of bigger problems....bullying and inadequate supervision, but if I had a kid that was being bullied, I would be concerned about more unsupervised opportunities for it to occur.  It would be hard for me to balance that with modesty concerns. All that to say, I don't know what the solution is short of providing secured individual spaces for each single child which is likely cost/space prohibitive for most schools. 

 

When I was a kid, if you did not want to change in the open, there were shower areas with curtains

The fact that bullies exist does not negate the need to protect kids' privacy, when they want it protected. It just turns adults into bullies.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by vonfirmath

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

When I was a kid, if you did not want to change in the open, there were shower areas with curtains

The fact that bullies exist does not negate the need to protect kids' privacy, when they want it protected. It just turns adults into bullies.

 

I'm not arguing against that.  Just pointing out that the solution is not simple and I can see why schools struggle to balance two issues.

[Ellie]

13 hours ago, SKL said:

 UGH the whole gym requirement is a big pet peeve.

Yeah. I just don't get that requirement at all. I was a Navy brat. In a couple of states

, gym (or P.E.) was required only up to 10th, but in California, where English was not a 4yr requirement, P.E. was. Just so weird and not right. o_0

Edited April 13, 2022 by Ellie