S/O Energy Independence - EV

[fraidycat]

Does anybody have a reliable source to learn about the long environmental impact re: EV battery production, longevity, and reuse/recycling of those materials when they inevitably degrade to the point that they need to be replaced.

I understand the push to reduce the use of fossil fuels. But, I don't know enough about the other side of it, so I keep wondering are we trading one headache for another in the longer term? 
 

If we expand the infrastructure to accommodate eventual 100% EV usage, but the mining contaminates land and waterways or the old batteries end up polluting landfills or oceans, are we really better off?

What are the unintended consequences and how can we reduce their impact in the race to curb climate change?

Please point me in the direction of your favorite sources so I can learn more about this. Thanks!

I hate to post & run, but I may not get back much before the weekend. I may be able to read & react a bit, but won't have much bandwidth to actually engage in discussion until then.

 

[KSera]

Here's a basic one from the EPA to get started with. It's actually pretty balanced and almost leans in the worst case scenario direction rather than the best: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

It has a link to a power profiler that lets you see what the sources of your electricity are in your area, though it's broken down in rather large areas, and I find I get much more accurate data on that from going direct to my local power supplier.

[Hilltopmom]

Same concerns about solar panels and battery set ups (or grid tied systems).  I used to know all about that when we had an off grid home but our tech was older and things have changed. Still takes a lot of resources to produce them

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

Here's a basic one from the EPA to get started with. It's actually pretty balanced and almost leans in the worst case scenario direction rather than the best: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

“Recycling EV batteries can reduce the emissions associated with making an EV by reducing the need for new materials.  While some challenges exist today, research is ongoing to improve the process and rate of EV battery recycling. See the U.S. Department of Energy’s ReCell Center for more information.“

I don’t know a whole lot about batteries of any type/purpose (physics was a real weak spot for me.) It leaves me wondering how much more everything/anything/whatever goes into an EV battery vs. a standard car battery.  Dh’s Prius needed a new battery after about 400,000 miles, but my gas cars seem to new batteries well before 100,000 miles.

(Time is a whole other thing. He was driving exponentially more than I was, so the years to replacement were similar.)

[athena1277]

I have wondered about this too.  In places where electricity production isn’t very green, you still have to use a lot of natural resources to produce more electricity to power a bunch of EVs.  It seems like it’s just putting those resources in a different location in their usage. 

[KSera]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know a whole lot about batteries of any type/purpose (physics was a real weak spot for me.) It leaves me wondering how much more everything/anything/whatever goes into an EV battery vs. a standard car battery.  

EV batteries are much, much bigger than a standard car battery, so there is a lot more material to deal with, and the recycling issue is definitely one that needs to continue to ramp up. Current batteries can be recycled, but it's still a pretty intensive process. Fortunately, the batteries last 10-20 years, and the battery recycling industry is continuing to innovate, so hopefully we will have more efficient means of recycling the materials from these batteries as we have more of them to deal with. That differs from in internal combustion vehicle though, which has zero way to recover any of the fuel it burns in order to run. Each tank of gas, once it's gone, it's gone, and the attendant CO2 emissions have been emitted into the atmosphere and begun their damage.

1 hour ago, athena1277 said:

I have wondered about this too.  In places where electricity production isn’t very green, you still have to use a lot of natural resources to produce more electricity to power a bunch of EVs.  It seems like it’s just putting those resources in a different location in their usage. 

Just how "green" your ev use is does depend on where your electricity comes from, but even in places that derive almost all of their electricity from coal (which is not most places--see your local power company's website for your mix). Here's a nice little calculator that uses your zip code to determine total emissions for operating a particular ev for one year in your area, using public power: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt2

When I run it for my car, for example, I get this (this shows that I'm in an area that uses more renewables than the US average, but even if I were in an average area, it's still a big decrease in emissions from a gas powered car):

Here's another resource for OP and anyone else interested that talks about the environmental impacts of evs, starting from production to charging and use: https://www.energysage.com/electric-vehicles/advantages-of-evs/evs-environmental-impact/

We hope to go solar one day, and that will hopefully get us off grid for charging the cars as well.

[KSera]

I also just spent more time playing with the "Power Profiler" to see what the energy sources are across the US, and it has a lot of interesting data. You can view by all sources, by percent renewables, by various emissions, etc: https://www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profiler#/

Renewables usage varies widely. From places using over 64% renewables and others (NYC) using less than 4% renewable energy. Definitely an area I'd love to see the US focus more on. Solar is way, way underused, looking at the data. Silly when we have a giant burning ball of energy in the sky that can provide us clean power.

[Katy]

Something else to consider is the space.  DH and I were just talking about how long term if we have electric vehicles it would be safer to have a detached garage.  Batteries catch on fire.

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, Katy said:

Something else to consider is the space.  DH and I were just talking about how long term if we have electric vehicles it would be safer to have a detached garage.  Batteries catch on fire.

Despite the high profile ev fires that have been reported, studies have found that EVs are FAR less likely to catch fire than gas or hybrid cars. After all, gasoline is highly combustible. The problem with EV fires is that they are harder to extinguish. Here's a study:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

These were the results:

I would like to see a good solution for how to more easily put out battery-related fires though, since that can be more difficult. I've read that better training for fire departments on putting out ev fires would help, so hopefully that is true.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I also just spent more time playing with the "Power Profiler" to see what the energy sources are across the US, and it has a lot of interesting data. You can view by all sources, by percent renewables, by various emissions, etc: https://www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profiler#/

Renewables usage varies widely. From places using over 64% renewables and others (NYC) using less than 4% renewable energy. Definitely an area I'd love to see the US focus more on. Solar is way, way underused, looking at the data. Silly when we have a giant burning ball of energy in the sky that can provide us clean power.

That Power Profiler site is interesting---thanks for sharing! I am actually in an area that shut down its last coal fired electric plant but my region is listed as using coal (the regions are huge) so if you drill down even further, your emissions/renewable data may be really different. Hydro is 42% for my region, but much higher for where I am at. 

[popmom]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

EV batteries are much, much bigger than a standard car battery, so there is a lot more material to deal with, and the recycling issue is definitely one that needs to continue to ramp up. Current batteries can be recycled, but it's still a pretty intensive process. Fortunately, the batteries last 10-20 years, and the battery recycling industry is continuing to innovate, so hopefully we will have more efficient means of recycling the materials from these batteries as we have more of them to deal with. That differs from in internal combustion vehicle though, which has zero way to recover any of the fuel it burns in order to run. Each tank of gas, once it's gone, it's gone, and the attendant CO2 emissions have been emitted into the atmosphere and begun their damage.

Just how "green" your ev use is does depend on where your electricity https://www.energysage.com/electric-vehicles/advantages-of-evs/evs-environmental-impact/

We hope to go solar one day, and that will hopefully get us off grid for charging the cars as well.

This is exactly what I want to do. 
 

Our electric company basically punishes us financially if we add solar making it cost prohibitive for most people. So I have been questioning whether we could add just enough solar to power a car—and be stealth about it, so the power company wouldn’t know. I’m thinking some type of semi portable set up. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

Something else to consider is the space.  DH and I were just talking about how long term if we have electric vehicles it would be safer to have a detached garage.  Batteries catch on fire.

My friend’s single family home’s fire did start from the garage. They had to rebuild the kitchen as well due to the fire. They have a Tesla. They ended up staying in a rental for about a year as the damaged portion of their home was rebuilt. Since it was a house fire, their kids could stay in the public schools they were at.

ETA: we live in a condo so if cars catch fire in the garage, fire alarms would go off like crazy in the entire complex and sprinklers would likely be activated everywhere. We have sprinklers inside our homes, it is required for condos.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Arcadia

[prairiewindmomma]

One unintended consequence I haven't seen mention is the loss of gasoline fuel tax revenue. It's been enough of an issue here as people adopt EV that they've changed the vehicle registration fees. If you own an EV, you pay higher vehicle registration fees than for a gas powered vehicle. FWIW, for the average driver, the EV fees are still cheaper than gas taxes.  That said, if you drive very few miles a year, it makes one grumble....so now they have introduced a program where you pay fees based on the number of miles you drive.

[mommyoffive]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

Despite the high profile ev fires that have been reported, studies have found that EVs are FAR less likely to catch fire than gas or hybrid cars. After all, gasoline is highly combustible. The problem with EV fires is that they are harder to extinguish. Here's a study:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

These were the results:

I would like to see a good solution for how to more easily put out battery-related fires though, since that can be more difficult. I've read that better training for fire departments on putting out ev fires would help, so hopefully that is true.

I am little scared to go pick up my hybrid van this weekend. 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

 

I would like to see a good solution for how to more easily put out battery-related fires though, since that can be more difficult. I've read that better training for fire departments on putting out ev fires would help, so hopefully that is true.

My county and neighboring county fire departments had a hard time putting out Tesla fires. They learned literally on the job.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1271084

“They quickly consulted Tesla’s first responder guide and realized that it would take far more personnel and water than they could have imagined. Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month. That same volume of water serves an average American home for nearly two years.

By comparison, a typical fire involving an internal combustion car can often be quickly put out with approximately 300 gallons of water, well within the capacity of a single fire engine.

As the popularity of electric vehicles grows, firefighters nationwide are realizing that they are not fully equipped to deal with them. So they have been banding together, largely informally, to share information to help one another out. In fact, Buck recently spoke on Zoom about the incident before a group of Colorado firefighters.

That’s because the way that electric vehicles are powered triggers longer-burning fires when they crash and get into serious accidents. Electric cars rely on a bank of lithium-ion batteries, similar to batteries found in a cellphone or computer. But unlike a small phone battery, the large batteries found in the Tesla Model X, for instance, contain enough energy to power an average American home for more than two days.

…

Still, most firefighters across America have not been adequately trained in the key differences between putting fires out in gas and electric cars. Some counterparts in Europe have developed a different approach, sometimes even putting a burning electric vehicle into a converted shipping container or dumpster -- essentially giving it a bath -- so that it cannot do further harm. Tesla says in its publicly available first responders guidethat this method is not advisable and that departments should just use lots of water to put fires out.“

[jen3kids]

This was shared by a friend on FB a few months ago.  

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

If at all possible, when researching, try to connect with actual engineers and techs in the EV industry. Not just the designers. Their first-hand knowledge is . . . eye opening, to say the least. 

(An electrical engineer friend in Nearby Large City is currently working on a project to install 12 new EV charging stations. They are powered by . . . a diesel generator, which he is tasked with connecting. I know it's a lot more nuanced than any superficial discussion, but . . . talk to the engineers. Ask about how the EV's are produced. Also the solar panel techs.)

[KSera]

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

That Power Profiler site is interesting---thanks for sharing! I am actually in an area that shut down its last coal fired electric plant but my region is listed as using coal (the regions are huge) so if you drill down even further, your emissions/renewable data may be really different. Hydro is 42% for my region, but much higher for where I am at. 

Yep. I'm able to get the more accurate breakdown from my power company's site. I expect most probably provide that if people look.

2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

I am little scared to go pick up my hybrid van this weekend. 

I'm sorry for scaring you! I hope you love it.

12 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

(An electrical engineer friend in Nearby Large City is currently working on a project to install 12 new EV charging stations. They are powered by . . . a diesel generator, which he is tasked with connecting. I know it's a lot more nuanced than any superficial discussion, but . . . talk to the engineers. Ask about how the EV's are produced. Also the solar panel techs.)

He might not understand much about EVs. Being an electrical engineer wouldn't automatically give him any special knowledge about them. Here's a Snopes article addressing the issue of diesel generators powering charging stations (not a typical set up whatsoever): https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/diesel-car-charging-station/. And another fact check on false Facebook posts making similar claims about diesel generators for charging EVs: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/19/facebook-posts/no-facebook-post-does-not-show-electric-car-chargi/

The kicker is that they found that even if they did use diesel generator to charge an electric vehicle, it still ends up being more efficient than burning fuel in the vehicle to power it. Gas powered vehicles make very inefficient use of fuel, with only a small part of the fuel burned going toward propelling the car forward.

I have no idea why Nearby Large City would be using diesel generators in the middle of a large city though. That's weird and clearly an edge case.

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

 

He might not understand much about EVs. Being an electrical engineer wouldn't automatically give him any special knowledge about them. Here's a Snopes article addressing the issue of diesel generators powering charging stations (not a typical set up whatsoever): https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/diesel-car-charging-station/. And another fact check on false Facebook posts making similar claims about diesel generators for charging EVs: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/19/facebook-posts/no-facebook-post-does-not-show-electric-car-chargi/

The kicker is that they found that even if they did use diesel generator to charge an electric vehicle, it still ends up being more efficient than burning fuel in the vehicle to power it. Gas powered vehicles make very inefficient use of fuel, with only a small part of the fuel burned going toward propelling the car forward.

I have no idea why Nearby Large City would be using diesel generators in the middle of a large city though. That's weird and clearly an edge case.

 

His is a little different from the Australian photo; it's currently being built. 😉

Our cities (especially up north in the cold) simply don't have the infrastructure to support EV's on a large scale. Or rural areas. It's coming, but it's not here. (And I definitely understand that this varies widely by region; that'd actually the point.)

Edited March 11, 2022 by Lucy the Valiant

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Our cities (especially up north in the cold) simply don't have the infrastructure to support EV's on a large scale. It's coming, but it's not here. 

Oh, I thought you were in the US. I don't know what it's like in Northern Canada, though I'm sure I could look it up.

[Lucy the Valiant]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I thought you were in the US. I don't know what it's like in Northern Canada, though I'm sure I could look it up.

In the northeast USA. Highest electric rates in the country, except Hawaii and California. No EV station in my zip code, or for a 30 min. drive all around me. This is not unusual; the EV stations are in the suburbs. I live in AWD country. 😉

Like I said, they're coming, but they're not  viable yet for the masses. 

The technology is really cool, though. We use solar in isolated applications out here, but the fancy panels on people's roofs are covered with snow several months of the year.

I've also had a gravity-powered light on my Christmas list for a few years. 😉 It looks like an IV pole and runs a light for 45 min purely on gravity.

[popmom]

4 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

I am little scared to go pick up my hybrid van this weekend. 

Yeah—I had no idea. I used to have a Prius. I LOVED it. And my dh is really, really into EVs—has been for years. I’ve always said I think hybrids just make more sense. Now I’m not so sure.

Even though those stats look scary, it’s still a really rare event, so I hope you enjoy your van. 
 

Our issue with EV is reliability, cost of repairs, and resell value. I’m thinking about the man who blew up his Tesla. They are notoriously unreliable while the Prius is almost bulletproof.

The latest offerings from Kia/Hyundai have really grabbed my husband’s attention. The Niro gets good reliability ratings so far.
 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by popmom

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, popmom said:

Our issue with EV is reliability, cost of repairs, and resell value. I’m thinking about the man who blew up his Tesla. They are notoriously unreliable while the Prius is almost bulletproof.

The latest offerings from Kia/Hyundai have really grabbed my husband’s attention. The Niro gets good reliability ratings so far

The Niro looks like a really nice choice, I agree. I’m curious what you mean about repairs and reliability though. That’s one of the reasons I’m sold on full electric over hybrid is so that I don’t have the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE. No oil changes, no transmission repairs, no anything but tires and windshield wiper fluid. 

[KSera]

Oh, and check out the new electric VW bus!

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-id-buzz-electric-van-debut/

Looks like it’s finally coming to market, though UK gets it first. They’re ahead of us in moving to electric. I expect the price of gas there has helped speed that along. 

[popmom]

52 minutes ago, KSera said:

The Niro looks like a really nice choice, I agree. I’m curious what you mean about repairs and reliability though. That’s one of the reasons I’m sold on full electric over hybrid is so that I don’t have the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE. No oil changes, no transmission repairs, no anything but tires and windshield wiper fluid. 

I will have to hunt for my sources on this again. Consumer Reports is one of many. 
 

In my case I’m driving a 2012 Toyota Highlander. Extremely reliable. Pretty low tech. If something does go wrong and requires a mechanic, the parts are relatively cheap and readily available. Even if the entire engine goes after a couple hundred thousand miles, I can get a replacement engine at a junkyard—have it installed for less than $5k. That’s after years and years of trouble free ownership. The new EVs are so high tech heavy, that in and of itself automatically increases repair costs due to: more labor hours required on EV repairs vs ICE, the certification required of the mechanics commands a higher price for labor per hour, parts less available and more expensive, the more tech heavy/reliant, the more likely something will fail on the car.
 

Then you factor in reliability ratings…new tech also means more bugs to work out. Tesla isn’t a reliable brand. It just isn’t. I’m closely following this because we really want it to make sense for us, but rn it doesn’t.
 

This is a very simplistic explanation, but maybe it helps. I read an article from CNET recently that agreed—the money saved on fuel and oil changes is offset by repair costs on EVs, so it’s definitely something to take into consideration before buying. At the end of the day, I need a car that won’t be in the shop or have odds and ends crap out on me at any moment. It’s not just the EV batteries and engines—it’s electrical systems, it’s “omg the hatchback/trunk of my car won’t stay closed”—stuff like that. 
 

sorry @fraidycat I’ve derailed the thread. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by popmom

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, popmom said:

It’s not just the EV batteries and engines—it’s electrical systems, it’s “omg the hatchback/trunk of my car won’t stay closed”—stuff like that. 

Lol, my experience is in part informed by all the problems with the electric doors on my gas-powered Toyota Sienna 😂. Holy smokes that car had door issues. It didn't have a lot of engine issues, true, but it did need need a couple repairs and eventually we replaced it rather than repair because it was going to need more work (some overhaul of the belt system) than seemed worth it on a car that also had non functional doors. It was less than ten years old. I do agree Toyotas and Hondas tend to be reliable overall. EVs have varying reliabilities depending on make and model, just like ICE cars. I know the early Tesla's had some weird quality control issues, which might be part of what you're talking about. I'm still not seeing anything that suggests an EV would be anymore expensive to own though. Here's an article about a Consumer Reports article on the subject: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10/owning-an-electric-car-really-does-save-money-consumer-reports-finds/

The conclusion is "Most EVs are $6,000-$10,000 cheaper to operate than an equivalent ICE vehicle." 🤷‍♀️ It doesn't have to be that much cheaper to be worth it to me, because the money savings is a nice bonus, but our initial motivation was moving away from burning gas to get around. There will be many people where it will need to be equivalent or cheaper in order to make the switch, though. We were able to buy ours used for less money than we have spent on any of our past vehicles, and it's been trouble free and again, there's no maintenance. Maintenance on an ICE car over the years can add up to be as much or more than a repair would be.

I don't think this discussion is OT, by the way, since it's a thread about EVs afterall. I do feel badly that I keep repsonding though 😳, but there seem to not be many EV owners on this forum, and there are so many misconceptions about them that it's hard to let them go because that just perpetuates them and then people read them and think they are true and repeat them to others. I know you already are pro-EV, but for others who are EV-curious, find someone with one and take a drive with them. That's how we initially became converts and we have had friends ride in ours and have the same reaction. It's a game changer in so many ways.

[popmom]

49 minutes ago, KSera said:

Lol, my experience is in part informed by all the problems with the electric doors on my gas-powered Toyota Sienna 😂. Holy smokes that car had door issues. It didn't have a lot of engine issues, true, but it did need need a couple repairs and eventually we replaced it rather than repair because it was going to need more work (some overhaul of the belt system) than seemed worth it on a car that also had non functional doors. It was less than ten years old. I do agree Toyotas and Hondas tend to be reliable overall. EVs have varying reliabilities depending on make and model, just like ICE cars. I know the early Tesla's had some weird quality control issues, which might be part of what you're talking about. I'm still not seeing anything that suggests an EV would be anymore expensive to own though. Here's an article about a Consumer Reports article on the subject: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10/owning-an-electric-car-really-does-save-money-consumer-reports-finds/

The conclusion is "Most EVs are $6,000-$10,000 cheaper to operate than an equivalent ICE vehicle." 🤷‍♀️ It doesn't have to be that much cheaper to be worth it to me, because the money savings is a nice bonus, but our initial motivation was moving away from burning gas to get around. There will be many people where it will need to be equivalent or cheaper in order to make the switch, though. We were able to buy ours used for less money than we have spent on any of our past vehicles, and it's been trouble free and again, there's no maintenance. Maintenance on an ICE car over the years can add up to be as much or more than a repair would be.

I don't think this discussion is OT, by the way, since it's a thread about EVs afterall. I do feel badly that I keep repsonding though 😳, but there seem to not be many EV owners on this forum, and there are so many misconceptions about them that it's hard to let them go because that just perpetuates them and then people read them and think they are true and repeat them to others. I know you already are pro-EV, but for others who are EV-curious, find someone with one and take a drive with them. That's how we initially became converts and we have had friends ride in ours and have the same reaction. It's a game changer in so many ways.

I hear you…I will just say that I also had trouble with the power sliding doors on my Sienna years ago, but I had the option of operating them manually, so it never rendered my van inoperable. In contrast my husband’s newish Subaru—when the back hatch/door malfunctioned, there was no option to operate it manually—it wasn’t safe to drive; and even if it was there was the incessant beeping lol. I think this is a problem with both new ICE vehicles and EVs. But in addition there are the aggravating factors involved with repairing an EV compared with an ICE. Currently, the average American would see no financial benefit to owning an EV—we haven’t even talked about the cost to insure. 
 

Also, the article you referenced isn’t from Consumer Reports directly. So you know…it’s not a primary source. 😉

Still, I want to make clear that I, along w my dh, are very much in favor of EVs. I know I’m very much a “contrarian” on the boards here, and none of you see my push back to far right conservatives on social media when it comes to these hot button topics (particularly COVID), but suffice it to say—I want to make EVs work for the average person. We just aren’t there yet.

Edited March 11, 2022 by popmom

[popmom]

@KSera https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/evs-are-cheaper-to-maintain-but-can-cost-more-to-repair-research-says/

sharing one of many articles on the subject. The factor that seems to be left out of the equation is RESELL VALUE. That’s super important to me at this stage of life. Just wanting full transparency in all of this as much as I love EVs. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by popmom

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, popmom said:

Also, the article you referenced isn’t from Consumer Reports directly. So you know…it’s not a primary source. 😉

 

I can link the consumer reports one later if you’re interested. I was aware also that it wasn’t a direct article, but consumer reports actually published several over the course of several weeks about the study and this one article seem to do a good job summarizing them. I thought it was going to be behind the consumer reports pay wall, so I thought something that wasn’t on their site would be better, but it turned out I didn’t have to login to anything to see it.

[popmom]

25 minutes ago, KSera said:

I can link the consumer reports one later if you’re interested. I was aware also that it wasn’t a direct article, but consumer reports actually published several over the course of several weeks about the study and this one article seem to do a good job summarizing them. I thought it was going to be behind the consumer reports pay wall, so I thought something that wasn’t on their site would be better, but it turned out I didn’t have to login to anything to see it.

I subscribe to CS, so I have access. My husband at this very moment is showing me all the features of the Hyundai EV-9. 😂

Oh—and the VW van lol. I just watched a video on the VW. 🙂

Edited March 11, 2022 by popmom

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, popmom said:

I subscribe to CS, so I have access. My husband at this very moment is showing me all the features of the Hyundai EV-9. 😂

 

Go take a test drive!

Oh, I just looked it up and see it's not in production yet. Although, I don't know if you mean the Hyundai Seven or the Kia EV-9. They both look cool! Looks like they might be out of our price range, but I'll keep an eye on them.

Here's the 45 page report version from Consumer Reports of the article above, for your light reading pleasure 😂:

Electric Vehicle Ownership Costs: Today’s Electric Vehicles Offer Big Savings for Consumers

 

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

I do feel badly that I keep repsonding though

Please don't feel badly! I made up my mind, or at least was about 95% sure, that my next vehicle would be electric long before the current gas price spike. I've found your input on this thread very informative. Links are great, but it's good to hear from people who actually have experience with EVs.

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My county and neighboring county fire departments had a hard time putting out Tesla fires. They learned literally on the job.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1271084

“They quickly consulted Tesla’s first responder guide and realized that it would take far more personnel and water than they could have imagined. Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month. That same volume of water serves an average American home for nearly two years.

By comparison, a typical fire involving an internal combustion car can often be quickly put out with approximately 300 gallons of water, well within the capacity of a single fire engine.

As the popularity of electric vehicles grows, firefighters nationwide are realizing that they are not fully equipped to deal with them. So they have been banding together, largely informally, to share information to help one another out. In fact, Buck recently spoke on Zoom about the incident before a group of Colorado firefighters.

That’s because the way that electric vehicles are powered triggers longer-burning fires when they crash and get into serious accidents. Electric cars rely on a bank of lithium-ion batteries, similar to batteries found in a cellphone or computer. But unlike a small phone battery, the large batteries found in the Tesla Model X, for instance, contain enough energy to power an average American home for more than two days.

…

Still, most firefighters across America have not been adequately trained in the key differences between putting fires out in gas and electric cars. Some counterparts in Europe have developed a different approach, sometimes even putting a burning electric vehicle into a converted shipping container or dumpster -- essentially giving it a bath -- so that it cannot do further harm. Tesla says in its publicly available first responders guidethat this method is not advisable and that departments should just use lots of water to put fires out.“

I can confirm this.
Our township and overall county has been doing training, but it is a real challenge.
However, my husband is much more afraid of our propane school busses.

[matrips]

What about the minerals that need to be mined to make the batteries?  And the fuel needed to fund the mining?  Aren’t most of these battery components found in the grounds of Afghanistan and China and the like?  So we’d all be back to foreign dependence. And how much does that mining destroy our earth?  Especially if the countries doing the mining are big into coal power.  Is it really better? or is it a better sound bite and a way for new companies to make money?  I don’t know.  But sometimes you do need to follow the money.  And I hate the idea of relying on other countries to supply our energy needs.

This article talks about the rare earth minerals needed for ev.  What happens if everything goes electric and the ‘rare’ minerals become outrageously expensive or hard to procure?  
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/forget-lithium-its-rare-earth-minerals-that-are-in-short-supply-for-evs/

I just think a lot of this push for all-electric is very shortsighted.  It’s usually good to keep things more varied.

[frogger]

I think varied is good. Nassim Taleb would call that anti fragile and I really like the term. 

EV has both costs and benefits. The benefits in warm zip codes with clean electric is the highest and the cost of rare earth minerals is more than made up for. My state though has few charging stations, is too spread out, and can be -40F which drains batteries.  The tech gets better and better but variety is key and the value of minerals and dependence on foreign countries for these minerals (plus environmental damage in those places) doesn't add up yet. 

I have 4 adults and 6 workers in my immediate family. Only one commutes to work with a car. The rest bike. Oldest lives in hot and humid Alabama and the rest of us used studded tires for winter ice. My husband commutes 40 miles per day. That obviously wouldn't be doable by some. Once again variety is key for an anti fragile economy.

 

There are rare earth minerals that could be mined in my state. I think it would be beneficial to have mines in my state even though I currently oppose the biggest one a Canadian company is trying to put in due to worries of pollution.  I would support different mining planes though depending on size, location, type, environmental impact etc.

 

I think few people have time to research every mine in the world so they become pro mining or anti mining, pro drilling or anti drilling but people local to it have a more vested interest in doing so. I would like to see more localized control rather than DC control or at least DC listening to local input over big corporation input. 

[Arcadia]

For those buying in the near future, prices are going up. 10,500 Chinese Yuan is about 1,656.20 USD.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3169942/tesla-raises-price-model-3-model-y-electric-vehicles-surge

“In the US, where Tesla moved its headquarters from Palo Alto, California, to Austin, Texas, last year, the prices of the Model Y sport-utility vehicle and Model 3 long-range sedan went up by US$1,000 each.

…. “Surging commodity prices have ratcheted up pressure on Tesla and other EV manufacturers in managing costs,” said Gao Shen, an independent analyst in Shanghai. “It is reasonable for them to raise prices.”

He said Tesla and its rivals could raise prices further in the coming months if the costs of commodities such as nickel and lithium were to continue to increase.

TF Securities, a mainland Chinese brokerage, said in a research note on Wednesday that a Model 3 car fitted with a 76.8 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery would face an additional cost of 10,500 yuan if nickel prices rose from US$20,000 to US$50,000 a ton.”

[fraidycat]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:59 PM, Lucy the Valiant said:

His is a little different from the Australian photo; it's currently being built. 😉

Our cities (especially up north in the cold) simply don't have the infrastructure to support EV's on a large scale. Or rural areas. It's coming, but it's not here. (And I definitely understand that this varies widely by region; that'd actually the point.)

Cold weather and rural areas are a huge factor that I think is not being looked at as closely as they should. I'd like to see a more balanced approach to these "targets" the govt's (at least ours) keep touting re: phasing out ICE in favor if EV. There seems to be a lack if nuance and critical thinking about viability and sustainability. Which is why I asked the question - I thought maybe I was missing some critical information, but I don't think I am. I do still have to go back and read and watch the links.

On 3/10/2022 at 10:48 PM, popmom said:

I will have to hunt for my sources on this again. Consumer Reports is one of many. 
 

In my case I’m driving a 2012 Toyota Highlander. Extremely reliable. Pretty low tech. If something does go wrong and requires a mechanic, the parts are relatively cheap and readily available. Even if the entire engine goes after a couple hundred thousand miles, I can get a replacement engine at a junkyard—have it installed for less than $5k. That’s after years and years of trouble free ownership. The new EVs are so high tech heavy, that in and of itself automatically increases repair costs due to: more labor hours required on EV repairs vs ICE, the certification required of the mechanics commands a higher price for labor per hour, parts less available and more expensive, the more tech heavy/reliant, the more likely something will fail on the car.
 

Then you factor in reliability ratings…new tech also means more bugs to work out. Tesla isn’t a reliable brand. It just isn’t. I’m closely following this because we really want it to make sense for us, but rn it doesn’t.
 

This is a very simplistic explanation, but maybe it helps. I read an article from CNET recently that agreed—the money saved on fuel and oil changes is offset by repair costs on EVs, so it’s definitely something to take into consideration before buying. At the end of the day, I need a car that won’t be in the shop or have odds and ends crap out on me at any moment. It’s not just the EV batteries and engines—it’s electrical systems, it’s “omg the hatchback/trunk of my car won’t stay closed”—stuff like that. 
 

sorry @fraidycat I’ve derailed the thread. 

You haven't derailed it at all. I share these same concerns. I'm not a fan of "tech" in vehicles. There is already too much, in my opinion.

On 3/11/2022 at 7:44 AM, matrips said:

What about the minerals that need to be mined to make the batteries?  And the fuel needed to fund the mining?  Aren’t most of these battery components found in the grounds of Afghanistan and China and the like?  So we’d all be back to foreign dependence. And how much does that mining destroy our earth?  Especially if the countries doing the mining are big into coal power.  Is it really better? or is it a better sound bite and a way for new companies to make money?  I don’t know.  But sometimes you do need to follow the money.  And I hate the idea of relying on other countries to supply our energy needs.

This article talks about the rare earth minerals needed for ev.  What happens if everything goes electric and the ‘rare’ minerals become outrageously expensive or hard to procure?  
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/forget-lithium-its-rare-earth-minerals-that-are-in-short-supply-for-evs/

I just think a lot of this push for all-electric is very shortsighted.  It’s usually good to keep things more varied.

Yes, this. Unless we can procure, develop and use the stuff we have access to in our own "backyards", we are not "energy independent" in regards to transportation. I feel like we are just kicking the can from oil extraction to extraction of other (non-renewable?) commodities./resources. I am hesistant to believe that this is necessarily cleaner, safer, and "better" for the environment or national safety/independence, especially if we go "all in" on one alternative instead of developing multiple viable alternatives.

I feel like I've got a bad case of whataboutitis right now, and I'm trying to find the balance between real concern and my own luddite-ish qualities. Thank you for all the links, I will go back and read/watch.

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

Cold weather and rural areas are a huge factor that I think is not being looked at as closely as they should. I'd like to see a more balanced approach to these "targets" the govt's (at least ours) keep touting re: phasing out ICE in favor if EV. There seems to be a lack if nuance and critical thinking about viability and sustainability. Which is why I asked the question - I thought maybe I was missing some critical information, but I don't think I am. I do still have to go back and read and watch the links.

You haven't derailed it at all. I share these same concerns. I'm not a fan of "tech" in vehicles. There is already too much, in my opinion.

Yes, this. Unless we can procure, develop and use the stuff we have access to in our own "backyards", we are not "energy independent" in regards to transportation. I am hesistant to believe that this is necessarily cleaner, safer, and "better" for the environment or national safety/indepI feel like we are just kicking the can from oil extraction to extraction of other (non-renewable?) commodities./resources. endence, especially if we go "all in" on one alternative instead of developing multiple viable alternatives.

I feel like I've got a bad case of whataboutitis right now, and I'm trying to find the balance between real concern and my own luddite-ish qualities. Thank you for all the links, I will go back and read/watch.

 

You're not alone.

My faith in American (and Japanese and German and . . . and . . . HUMAN) ingenuity can certainly believe that this is a problem we can figure out. (After all, oil & internal combustion engines were worthless to the Roman empire, ya know? --> technologies evolve.) But forcing it faster than the supporting industries can keep up (recycling batteries, reasonable infrastructure for charging, better sources for electricity than coal & LNG, more cold-durable batteries, farther ranges, lower production costs, safer working conditions for the rare material miners, etc.) . . . runs the risk of completely collapsing the entire economy that the green tech is supposed to be helping. 

Out-sourcing to countries with lower safety and manufacturing standards is not eco-friendly, no matter how desperately the wealthy nations wish to convince themselves otherwise. 

I'd love to see leadership on this from our represented officials (from both parties) in DC. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

Cold weather and rural areas are a huge factor that I think is not being looked at as closely as they should. I'd like to see a more balanced approach to these "targets" the govt's (at least ours) keep touting re: phasing out ICE in favor if EV. There seems to be a lack if nuance and critical thinking about viability and sustainability. Which is why I asked the question - I thought maybe I was missing some critical information, but I don't think I am. I do still have to go back and read and watch the links.

I do hope you will go back and read and watch the links. There are a lot of comments here from people who have shared things they worry about, but don't have actual experience or information about. Rural areas are truly not a problem for EV cars anymore than they are for gas cars (it's actually a bigger problem for gas). If a gas station can be built somewhere, so can a charging station, but most people who live in single family homes (which is the vast majority of people living rurally) charge at home. Every time they leave the house, they have a full "tank".  I live in farm country myself. Acreage and animals.  I'm not speaking without experience.

If you read some of the links I shared, you will see the cold weather stuff addressed as well. Plenty of people living in places with very cold winters who are loving their EVs.

Battery sustainability, as I mentioned is one that is being worked on and needs to continue to be. The advantage is that the raw materials in batteries can be recycled and reused, and that is already being done. There is no way to do that with gas. It just gets burned into the environment and then it's gone, so I can't see them as being equivalent. I hope that recycling will become easier and more efficient as the industry matures.

I missed the quote, but as far as their being too much tech to go wrong in EVs, I was trying to explain above how many more things there are to break in an ICE engine, and even when it's working perfectly, it needs service throughout it's lifetime. I can't overemphasize how simple an electric car is compared to an ICE. There's just not much to it, and no parts to be oiled, serviced, replaced, repaired.

[mommyoffive]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I do hope you will go back and read and watch the links. There are a lot of comments here from people who have shared things they worry about, but don't have actual experience or information about. Rural areas are truly not a problem for EV cars anymore than they are for gas cars (it's actually a bigger problem for gas). If a gas station can be built somewhere, so can a charging station, but most people who live in single family homes (which is the vast majority of people living rurally) charge at home. Every time they leave the house, they have a full "tank".  I live in farm country myself. Acreage and animals.  I'm not speaking without experience.

If you read some of the links I shared, you will see the cold weather stuff addressed as well. Plenty of people living in places with very cold winters who are loving their EVs.

Battery sustainability, as I mentioned is one that is being worked on and needs to continue to be. The advantage is that the raw materials in batteries can be recycled and reused, and that is already being done. There is no way to do that with gas. It just gets burned into the environment and then it's gone, so I can't see them as being equivalent. I hope that recycling will become easier and more efficient as the industry matures.

I missed the quote, but as far as their being too much tech to go wrong in EVs, I was trying to explain above how many more things there are to break in an ICE engine, and even when it's working perfectly, it needs service throughout it's lifetime. I can't overemphasize how simple an electric car is compared to an ICE. There's just not much to it, and no parts to be oiled, serviced, replaced, repaired.

Rural and cold used to be a problem.  We had one when it really was a problem.  Looking at the charging map, I would probably be more in to trying to see if it would work for us with the ranges that are double or triple of what they were when we had our EV.    And if there were fast charging stations too.  Our EV would not be fully charged after a day of driving in the cold, charging at home in a normal outlet.  But maybe putting in the charging port would help that? Even with our horrible experience years ago we would try it again if everything was there.   That charging map really makes me so much more comfortable with it. 

But for us there just isn't a 7, but really an 8 person car on the market that I know of yet.   And also that is on par with what I can get.  We just got a Hybrid Minivan so that is where we are at now.  Hopefully our next car can be an EV.

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Our EV would not be fully charged after a day of driving in the cold, charging at home in a normal outlet.  But maybe putting in the charging port would help that?

Definitely. A standard outlet doesn’t charge very quickly, but putting in a faster home charger totally does the trick. We were fortunate that the previous owners of our house had a 240V shop outlet in the garage, so I just charge off that. I don’t remember what I calculated the time is at home for a full charge from empty to full, but it’s definitely much less than overnight, so I always have a full battery in the morning. 

[mommyoffive]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Definitely. A standard outlet doesn’t charge very quickly, but putting in a faster home charger totally does the trick. We were fortunate that the previous owners of our house had a 240V shop outlet in the garage, so I just charge off that. I don’t remember what I calculated the time is at home for a full charge from empty to full, but it’s definitely much less than overnight, so I always have a full battery in the morning. 

Oh that is great to know.  I would think that is much cheaper than the ones I see on the car adds that they want you to install at home.

[Arcadia]

40 minutes ago, KSera said:

Definitely. A standard outlet doesn’t charge very quickly, but putting in a faster home charger totally does the trick. We were fortunate that the previous owners of our house had a 240V shop outlet in the garage, so I just charge off that. I don’t remember what I calculated the time is at home for a full charge from empty to full, but it’s definitely much less than overnight, so I always have a full battery in the morning. 

Isn’t the 240V at the garage the dryer outlet? Or is there two 240V outlets? I know some of the newer single family homes comes with an EV charging port in the garage.  One of my friend’s home is very old though and her washer and dryer are in her garage.

[fraidycat]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

I do hope you will go back and read and watch the links. There are a lot of comments here from people who have shared things they worry about, but don't have actual experience or information about. Rural areas are truly not a problem for EV cars anymore than they are for gas cars (it's actually a bigger problem for gas). If a gas station can be built somewhere, so can a charging station, but most people who live in single family homes (which is the vast majority of people living rurally) charge at home. Every time they leave the house, they have a full "tank".  I live in farm country myself. Acreage and animals.  I'm not speaking without experience.

If you read some of the links I shared, you will see the cold weather stuff addressed as well. Plenty of people living in places with very cold winters who are loving their EVs.

Battery sustainability, as I mentioned is one that is being worked on and needs to continue to be. The advantage is that the raw materials in batteries can be recycled and reused, and that is already being done. There is no way to do that with gas. It just gets burned into the environment and then it's gone, so I can't see them as being equivalent. I hope that recycling will become easier and more efficient as the industry matures.

I missed the quote, but as far as their being too much tech to go wrong in EVs, I was trying to explain above how many more things there are to break in an ICE engine, and even when it's working perfectly, it needs service throughout it's lifetime. I can't overemphasize how simple an electric car is compared to an ICE. There's just not much to it, and no parts to be oiled, serviced, replaced, repaired.

Working my way through the links now.

Paraphrasing from your first EPA link above:

Electric vehicles can go up to 100 miles on a single charge, some more than 100 miles.

Sometimes we drive 75 miles to the city, 15-20+ miles around in the city to shop and attend appointments, then 75 miles home. In -40 degree weather, so we start the vehicle to run and warm up 10 minutes before we leave the store.

As of yet, the infrastructure in my area is not there to support that. Our doctors offices, hospitals, and stores don't have the charging capabilities for every family who travels 75-100 miles into the city to attend appointments and re-charge while they are there. We are lucky that our commute is "only an hour", as there are many who are double that.

I'm not sure our definitions of rural are the same.

But, back to my original question, which wasn't so much about EV vs. ICE, but EV  component production vs. the environment. The youtube vid linked above touched on it a bit, so I will go to it and check for citations and sources and go on rabbit trails from there.

Tangentally related - it's slow going because  I have to keep stopping to power off and charge my phone... because it is very near the end if it's battery life and overheats if I charge and use at the same time. The battery life has degraded such that it needs charging several times per day. It is 4.5 years old.

 

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

 

Tangentally related - it's slow going because  I have to keep stopping to power off and charge my phone... because it is very near the end if it's battery life and overheats if I charge and use at the same time. The battery life has degraded such that it needs charging several times per day. It is 4.5 years old.

 

If your phone is an iPhone, check for battery recall. My former iPhone 6s and the replacement iPhone 6s the apple store gave me were under the battery recall. Our cellphone batteries typically outlast our laptop batteries.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Isn’t the 240V at the garage the dryer outlet? Or is there two 240V outlets? I know some of the newer single family homes comes with an EV charging port in the garage.  One of my friend’s home is very old though and her washer and dryer are in her garage.

In our case, it’s actually not a dryer outlet. It’s an outlet for power tools. A lot of people do have dryer outlets that are 240 V in the garage though.  Incidentally, our neighbor down the street has a Tesla charger installed on the outside of their barn 😂. 

50 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

Paraphrasing from your first EPA link above:

Electric vehicles can go up to 100 miles on a single charge, some more than 100 miles.

Yeah, definitely an older EV that only went 100 miles per charge would not be a good choice for yiu. I didn’t see where you saw that in the EPA link, but it’s certainly old. I don’t know of any EVs that are in production now that get that little. All the ones I’ve looked at lately get over 200 miles to a charge and some over 300. Hopefully wherever you are, you start seeing more chargers around. PlugShare is one of several websites where you can get an idea for where they are. They are often more places than you realize.

It’s an interesting phenomenon though. This whole thread and the others are pretty much the way they go anywhere online where there aren’t very many people that are actually driving electric vehicles. People are for some reason very attached to their gas powered vehicles and seem to spend more time looking for reasons electric won’t work than for ways that it could. I’m not sure why, but it’s definitely very much a thing. 

[Arcadia]

47 minutes ago, KSera said:

. PlugShare is one of several websites where you can get an idea for where they are. They are often more places than you realize.

We live in a condo so can’t install one anyway. My husband tells me that there are not enough charging stations to go around at his office multistory garage so employees have to have the thoughtfulness to repark their electric cars during lunch time. Else very few people would be able to charge their cars. The charging stations at our nearby library is always utilized and people do leave their cars there overnight. The ones at a Grocery Outlet parking lot 4miles away which is just in front of a rental apartment complex is never in used when we were there.

ETA: The premium outlet we go to which is about 40miles away has insufficient charging stations as well. We often see Teslas waiting for a charging slot to free up. Apparently there are twenty Tesla charging ports there.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Arcadia

[BusyMom5]

I know exactly one person with an EV.  They are super-rich, and drive it only occasionally to their job.... where they have only enough charge to go direct there and back before needing another charge.  Its ridiculous.   I drive 100 miles round-trip to Wal-Mart, but often its a lot more bc I run all my errands that day.  Stop-start driving uses more energy.  Not to mentioned how hilly the drive is- its not flat roads. I'm not interested in getting an EV.  Its not practical- for many of the reasons already listed- too complicated to work on when things go wrong, no one local trained to fix it when something goes wrong, just too far out in the boonies to chance running out of a charge.  

One thing not yet mentioned- we routinely get notice from our electric company in the summer and winter that the grid is in peak use, asking customers to not use appliances.  Our infrastructure isn't there yet.   

If I were in charge, instead of focusing on EV (I'd let the market figure that out), I would focus on the least-energy usage to move things.  I think more could be moved by rail- people and goods. I'd also try to encourage everyone to use less energy every single day- turn out lights, use power strips,  etc.  I would also focus on promoting well-built items that LAST.  If z refrigerator goes out in 5 years, it creates waste for the land fill, uses many parts, metals, plastics,  shipping,  packaging.  If that refrigerator lasted 20-25 years, that's 1 instead of 4-5 that need to be made.  Multiply this for every appliance, clothes, shoes,  etc.  It really adds up! 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

I know exactly one person with an EV.  They are super-rich, and drive it only occasionally to their job.... where they have only enough charge to go direct there and back before needing another charge.  Its ridiculous.   I drive 100 miles round-trip to Wal-Mart, but often its a lot more bc I run all my errands that day.  Stop-start driving uses more energy.  Not to mentioned how hilly the drive is- its not flat roads. I'm not interested in getting an EV.  Its not practical- for many of the reasons already listed- too complicated to work on when things go wrong, no one local trained to fix it when something goes wrong, just too far out in the boonies to chance running out of a charge.  

One thing not yet mentioned- we routinely get notice from our electric company in the summer and winter that the grid is in peak use, asking customers to not use appliances.  Our infrastructure isn't there yet.   

If I were in charge, instead of focusing on EV (I'd let the market figure that out), I would focus on the least-energy usage to move things.  I think more could be moved by rail- people and goods. I'd also try to encourage everyone to use less energy every single day- turn out lights, use power strips,  etc.  I would also focus on promoting well-built items that LAST.  If z refrigerator goes out in 5 years, it creates waste for the land fill, uses many parts, metals, plastics,  shipping,  packaging.  If that refrigerator lasted 20-25 years, that's 1 instead of 4-5 that need to be made.  Multiply this for every appliance, clothes, shoes,  etc.  It really adds up! 

I'm not going to make any attempt to convert you (or anyone else honestly), but I do want to respond to a few of the points because they are common misunderstandings about electric (I keep hoping @TechWife will come by and answer some of these so I don't feel so annoying 😂). But, I answer for the sake of other people reading who might be interested and/or who would like to know if these things are actually concerns (because I assure you, all the people loving their electric cars aren't being paid to do so), not because I'm trying to convince you personally in any way.

The rich person with a car that can only go to work and back: sounds again like an old EV. The early ones had short range. There are lots of long range options now, many at the same price point as the average ICE car.

Stop-start driving: this is one of the beauties of ev. Unlike an ICE car, stop start driving is not inefficient for an EV. When stopped at a light or in traffic, an ev is using no electricity to run the motor when just sitting there, whereas an ICE has to keep burning fuel to idle. If you were to get stuck in stop go traffic that was barely moving for several hours, the EV would use hardly any battery, while the ICE would keep burning fuel even when stopped.

Hills: Hills are my favorite! I live in the hills and regenerative braking is the bomb. When I'm going downhill, braking is actually generating power that is fed back to the battery and putting miles back on the car. Same even on flat land, if I am slowing down. Then I use more energy to go back up hill, but this is again where it's REALLY worth driving an ev because you have to feel it to understand, but they go up the hills effortlessly. My ICE car requires me to give a lot more gas and the engine struggles up the hill, but the ev is like bizarre in how easily it does it. It doesn't even make any more noise about it or anything. You just push the accelerator down, and it just goes up. Living in hill country, I love it. I have a neighbor a few miles away up a steep hill that I almost break even with when I go visit, because I use up some charge on my way there, and then I recharge my battery on my way back home down the hill.

Things going wrong: As shown in some of the above articles, there's just very, very little to go wrong in an ev. Maintenance and repairs on ICE cars cost more.

Getting stuck in the boonies: The same thing happens to people if they run out of gas. The difference with en ev is that if you can find even just a standard power outlet, you can plug in and get some miles back on to keep going.

Certainly people who live in places where the grid is unreliable evs are probably not the way to go yet. Those are again edge cases, though.

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

Certainly people who live in places where the grid is unreliable evs are probably not the way to go yet. Those are again edge cases, though.

I am just whining more about insufficient number of charging stations to support a densely populated area.  We drive to libraries in other cities when we have a power outage to make use of their WiFi to do school and office work. We are lucky not to have intentional rotating outages in our city.