Question, especially if you are a non-Christian religion or agnostic or atheist

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

It’s not the rabbit trails, it’s the predictably. And the irony that in a question specifically asking about living in a culture where the default assumption is that everyone is Christian, most of the posts end up illustrating why the question needed to be asked in the first place. “Annoyed” wasn’t the right word on my part, maybe just tired.

I view the original question as similar to asking how to deal with the default that everyone is white, or straight, or middle class when you aren’t. Sometimes it’s nice to be asked and actually listened to without having to shout over the clamor, you know?  
 

As all threads do, this one has taken a turn and that’s obviously fine, but I think it’s fair to audibly sigh about it. As others have mentioned, there’s a lot of staying silent when you don’t fit in the expected tidy boxes, and it does get exhausting. 
 

Carry on! 🙂 

I have never fit in a tidy box.  Thus why I answered.  And yes I have been silent much of my life including (believe it or not) here in these boards.  

[Eos]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:40 PM, Murphy101 said:

It’s nifty to have a heads up about who I’m dealing with.

This.  

[Lady Florida.]

Since the thread has already taken a turn I thought I'd reply to these posts.

BTW @Quill I meant to say in my first reply to your question that Christian is the assumed default around here. Though I haven't had much contact with the kind of people you mentioned, when I do they assume I'm of the same belief system as they are - conservative Christian. One of my good friends during our early homeschool years (her son and mine also got along well) was Catholic. She joined our non religious hs group because she said the other groups felt her family "isn't Christian enough for them". 

On 1/17/2022 at 12:25 PM, Scarlett said:

I am always fascinated and troubled by people losing their faith in the face of personal loss. 

 

 

I don't actually know any atheists IRL who lost their faith after personal loss or struggles. I know we have a number of Hive members who said that's how they let go. Among my closest friends who went from belief to non belief one was quite religious while the others were like me - mildly religious.

I credit the bible as the biggest reason I let go of belief. The jokes about Catholics not reading the bible are true, or at least were true when I was growing up and even a young adult. We were expected to let priests read and interpret it for us. I believe there are now Catholic bible studies but there was no such thing during my years as a Catholic. Anyway, when I converted to United Methodist I joined a women's bible study plus decided to read it on my own. I read through it three times, each time became more skeptical. I finally decided it was merely the superstitions of ancient desert people. I didn't have any qualms about letting go nor did I feel a sense of relief. I just felt it was the right thing.

 

23 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As a now-atheist, I think there are absolutely atheists in foxholes, so to speak. Death can be final and complete and that can be ok. I obviously can’t speak for others, but I find this is one of the dichotomies between religious and nonreligious communities—it’s as if the religious believe that no one can truly be non-religious. Or that religious people think that non-religious people are somehow sad/lost/unfulfilled in their lives. It’s also not surprising to me that this conversation swirled back around to points of theology. When we talk about religion being the basis of a worldview and informing your thoughts and conversation—religious people tend to swing the convo back to religion. And non-religious people tend not to. Those of us who have had both types of experiences can “flip” between languages…but to hear my always-atheist friends talk about this culturally…they don’t necessarily flip between languages and find it very odd that religious people keep pushing a religious narrative in the everyday conversations.

I agree. My closest friends are all atheist. One was brought up in a pretty strict religious household, one was raised atheist. The rest of us fall somewhere in between. The always atheist one doesn't have the cultural religious background the rest of us do but she also feels the most negatively affected by the assumption she's Christian. She has had to deal with that her entire life while the rest of us were in the default religion for at least our childhoods and part of our adult years.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[Lady Florida.]

17 hours ago, Frances said:

What really bothers me in general, and sometimes on this board, is that it often seems to be assumed or stated that non-religious people, and especially non-Christians, are missing a steadfast moral compass in their lives and how could one truly be a good person and raise good, moral children without religion? 
 

What baffles me is when religious people, usually but not always Christians, think that for atheists life has no meaning, no enjoyment. That all atheists are nihilists. 

[Murphy101]

20 hours ago, Quill said:

When I shifted my thinking to, basically, “Life sucks and then you die,” my mental health improved dramatically. 

I do not call myself an atheist (maybe I am still averse to that due to culture), but all parts of my life improved when I decided the only things I’m certain of are 1) some day, I will die and this ride will be over; and 2) I’m still alive right now. So I might as well do what I can with the situation I find myself in. 

Well I’m Catholic and I still feel the same way as you. I don’t control God. Or much of anything really. I just have myself and this body and this life. I try to make the best of it and be thankful for what I have. 

20 hours ago, Quill said:

And literally, as I am typing that, I just got the text that my friend just died of Covid. Around 56 years is all she got. So, might as well do the best you can with the life you get because we are all terminal. 

I’m so sorry for your loss.  I agree. Life is short. Let us not waste it.  I don’t think that goes against my faith either. 

18 hours ago, annandatje said:

Same here.  A chatty oncologic nurse was asking if I had seen a doctor for a particular ailment.  Responded honestly that I did not intend to seek treatment for said ailment.  She replied by asking me what I thought happened to body upon death even though the particular ailment was not life threatening.  I said that corpse began the decomposition process so she clarified that she meant the soul to which I responded that I had never seen any objectively verifiable evidence for a consciousness that survives death.  She seemed genuinely sad upon learning I did not believe in any type of afterlife, any future system of rewards and punishments, and that deities did not exist but were more likely created by humans to squelch fears and universal uncertainty.  However, she claimed that I would indeed "repent" and "go home to the lord" when death imminent.  I let it go.  I live in a state that is already the laughingstock of the nation with good reason. 

If I recall correctly, Richard Dawkins stated that he intended to have witnesses to death who could refute any future false claim that he converted on deathbed.  

The nurse must not have been very experienced watching people die. I can tell you I am less experienced than professionals and more experienced than your average and I have seen people die with all kinds of opinions on what would happen “next”.  Some think they are going to hell and they are a-okay with it. (My father) Some think they are worm food. Some think they don’t die, they just transcend to a new state of being. 

Also. There’s the myth that dying people suddenly become virtuous and full of great thoughts, especially if they are elderly.  No. The jerk is usually still a jerk. The idiot is usually still an idiot. Some things people do not age out of. 

17 hours ago, regentrude said:

I had similar thoughts when someone told me "you should really go to church!"  How would it be appropriate for me to say to her "you should really not go to church"?

But they don't see that it's the same thing. 

just saying … as a RC, I hear that all the time. Granted it’s usually bc they think the pope is the antichrist or whatever. Still. Yeah. People do say that stuff.

Which is why I posted how I handle these types of things.

[Ceilingfan]

I always try to see the difference in conversion fervour (and the difference in mild conversion acceptabiliy vs the unacceptability of mild deconversion, as regentrude describes above) as a natural and human consequence of the belief itself. If you believe that an eternity of torment awaits unbelievers, it must be an absolutely prime imperative to rescue them from that, and their discomfort in the moment really wouldn't be all that relevant.

So I give a lot of grace to missionaries, and to people I know who ask about church, and even suggest its virtues. It hurts my feelings to be proselytized to by someone I thought was actually interested in me, but I understand the drive.

Really, I don't understand how conservative, observant Christians ever do anything except win souls to Christ. How could any other activity matter in comparison? It's eternal torment! 

[livetoread]

7 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

What baffles me is when religious people, usually but not always Christians, think that for atheists life has no meaning, no enjoyment. That all atheists are nihilists. 

This. Or should be nihilists if they aren't to be consistent. I blame Nietzsche - in my experience Christian philosophers like to point to him for that. Just because there is no outside meaning imposed on our lives doesn't mean our lives have no meaning. We figure out how to make our lives meaningful.

I was raised conservative Christian and went from that to liberal Christian to vague belief in something out there to no belief over a few years. I don't really miss the idea of heaven. I'm fine with there just being nothing after I die, but I do miss having the belief that suffering in this world would finally come to an end. It was nice to think that. But no longer thinking that doesn't mean I throw up my hands and despair over our existence. It's up to us to reduce suffering and try and make the world a better place. I wish there was a power that was both willing and able to do it for us at some point, but that doesn't seem likely.

Getting back to the original question, I think this assumption, that our lives must be empty and bleak, also motivates Christians to be more vocal in public spaces about their beliefs. Their beliefs have given them happiness and setting aside the fear of hell/joy of heaven thing, they want everyone to be aware that their lives can be better. I even passed a church yesterday with that message on its sign board. Your life can be better. Which is all well and good if someone is unhappy in a way that joining a church could help. I'm fine with that. But don't assume that anyone who doesn't believe could be happier joining. Not true.

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

As others have mentioned, there’s a lot of staying silent when you don’t fit in the expected tidy boxes, and it does get exhausting. 

Oh, no doubt. Almost without exception, everyone in my social circles is:

Anti-vax

Anti-mask

Anti-BLM

Anti-animal rights

Anti-universal healthcare

Anti-welfare

Anti-science

And on and on.

I am none of those things, but it has often been assumed that I am. When to speak and when to be silent can be a tricky, awkward thing, affecting not only myself, but my daughter and her relationships.

Edited January 18, 2022 by MercyA

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Oh, no doubt. Almost without exception, everyone in my social circles is:

Anti-vax

Anti-mask

Anti-BLM

Anti-animal rights

Anti-universal healthcare

Anti-welfare

Anti-science

And on and on.

I am none of those things, but it has often been assumed that I am. When to speak and when to be silent can be a tricky, awkward thing, affecting not only myself, but my daughter and her relationships.

Yep. And also. Personally I’m not asking anyone to be silent. I’m a fan of dialog.

[Pam in CT]

re nihilism, and cultural/Christian conflation of *absence of Belief" with "absence of joy or meaning"

57 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

What baffles me is when religious people, usually but not always Christians, think that for atheists life has no meaning, no enjoyment. That all atheists are nihilists. 

 

31 minutes ago, livetoread said:

This. Or should be nihilists if they aren't to be consistent. I blame Nietzsche - in my experience Christian philosophers like to point to him for that. Just because there is no outside meaning imposed on our lives doesn't mean our lives have no meaning. We figure out how to make our lives meaningful....

Yes.  This is indeed wearying.

 

I've also noticed an Accelerationist trend just in the last few years, where [some!! by no means all!] people who *are* Believers are articulating a sequence that sounds, at least to someone outside the circle of Belief, to be something along the lines of

Quote

Everything in this life is but a moment compared to the eternal hereafter; and

Everything in this life is in God's hands; so

Nothing I do in this life matters

which, (again) at least to someone outside the circle of Belief, reads as something very close to nihilism.

Because the logical next inference to the above sequence is

Quote

May as well burn the whole thing to the ground

(the lives/ health/ wishes/ agency of anybody outside the circle of Belief be... damned, as it were)

[Dmmetler]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:25 AM, Scarlett said:

I am always fascinated and troubled by people losing their faith in the face of personal loss.  But I was never taught that we will have our troubles miraculously solved.  I was taught that we are living in a fallen and imperfect world and time and unforeseen things befall us all.  These things aren't punishment from God.  Even when we have consequences from our  own poor choices (addiction leading to health problems, wreckless behavior leading to injury etc) those are consequences not punishment directly from God.

What I was taught was to pray for things that are in harmony with God's will and purpose.  And for the necessities required for survival (this includes more than physical survival).  And that God will help us to endure the bad things of this imperfect world.

Regardless, these things are tough.  I am sorry so many of you have suffered so much.  Life is tough I think.

 

In my case, it wasn't the loss of my son that caused my loss of faith, but being told that the loss was due to not having trusted in God enough and that I had married someone outside of the church. I just couldn't reconcile the two, and it totally soured me on the church and church people. 

 

My mother's current situation bothers me too, because one thing my Mother is, is a true believer. She's the kind of person who, in a prior generation would have likely been a nun, and lives a similar life except that she's married and has children. The first thing she did when she was no longer sedated was to find the Christian channel on her hospital TV. She believes. And it feels like if anyone should have gotten a bye it was her. It physically hurts when I get calls or messages describing her survival and recovery so far as a miracle-because it seems like if there were going to be a miracle, it should have been before they got hit by an inattentive driver. And while it is great that she is in an awesome hospital, has great nurses, insurance has been honestly easy to work with, and so on....it seems sort of selective vision to credit him with all the good stuff, but ignore the bad. 

 

To go back to the OP, my response when someone says they're praying for mom, or were praying for me during my pregnancy with L, is "Thank You". But the same applies no matter the faith of the person making the statement-it's just that in my part of the Bible belt, most of the people making such a statement will be Evangelical Christians.  And I think it has as much meaning for many people as saying "Bless You" after someone sneezes. If anything, I strongly suspect my various flavor of Pagan friends are more sincere when they say that they'll push healing energy her way-because I know that they are very quiet about their beliefs and would only say that to someone they know would receive it as they mean it. 

 

 

[Murphy101]

16 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

In my case, it wasn't the loss of my son that caused my loss of faith, but being told that the loss was due to not having trusted in God enough and that I had married someone outside of the church. I just couldn't reconcile the two, and it totally soured me on the church and church people. 

As Fr Schmitz said after reading the account of Job’s friends speaking to Job about his tribulations “be better friends”.

Those people were jerks. Worse. They had crappy reasoning and worse theology. I’m so sorry they kicked you, especially while you were already down.

 

[KungFuPanda]

On 1/16/2022 at 10:48 AM, QueenCat said:

I sit here and think about the different places we've lived & how that question doesn't come  up in most of them. It really didn't come in Georgia, Virginia, or now in Ohio. People might mention that they're busy with something at church or tell you that if you're interested, they have a great church, but they leave it at that. In Tennessee, it wasn't "do you", it was "where do you go." And then, if it wasn't "the right kind," you got invited to theirs! I felt sorry for Catholics there, they were really discriminated against by Southern Baptists and Church of Christ. Our closest friends there are Catholic; I was stunned at what they'd experienced. And there was a pretty good-sized Catholic church in town.

Growing up, in Central MD (Columbia), people assumed you were either Christian or Jewish. Nobody bugged anyone about it. It was private and personal. We did have a few Jewish holidays off from school. 

I don't think you could even assume that much around here anymore.  It's way too diverse and you cannot tell someone's religion by looking at them.  I haven't run into the presumed Christianity thing since I stopped living in Appalachia, the south, and Texas.  When they ask if you are "Christian" they definitely mean "born again" because the rest doesn't count.  It's part of the brand to suss out who is who.  If you're not evangelical, they'll try to turn you.  If you are impervious to their charms, they'll shun you because Fundies gonna fundie.   It's bazaar but you don't know it until you leave that life.  While you're in it you just think that you're right and it's your job to save people from themselves.

I do get that time marches on and that not all Evangelicals are predatory, but it's the aggressive ones that ask you all the questions. They remind me of those kid quizzers who what to test your homeschooled kid to make sure he knows what a math book is.  I'm talking about some of my own family members here, so I love them and they mean well, they just don't pick up on the social awkwardness of the situation because they're insulated by too many people who think like them to be objective about their behavior.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

it seems sort of selective vision to credit him with all the good stuff, but ignore the bad

Indeed. My DH is a pretty firm atheist, and the above is what bugs him the most about Christians, I think. He says God always gets all the credit and never any of the blame. Which is of course true. The contortions used to try to explain the "why" of that kind of fascinate me (even though I don't find any of them at all convincing), but he doesn't have the patience for any of it and so it just flat out bugs him.

[Scarlett]

51 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

As Fr Schmitz said after reading the account of Job’s friends speaking to Job about his tribulations “be better friends”.

Those people were jerks. Worse. They had crappy reasoning and worse theology. I’m so sorry they kicked you, especially while you were already down.

 

You beat me to it.  

Mind blowing the things people will say.

[QueenCat]

17 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I don't think you could even assume that much around here anymore.  It's way too diverse and you cannot tell someone's religion by looking at them.  I haven't run into the presumed Christianity thing since I stopped living in Appalachia, the south, and Texas. 

Oh, I know Columbia has changed. I started K in one of the first elementary schools & it was brand new then. And left for college in '83... When I was little, it was just those two, at least that I knew about... The interfaith center had Catholic services, Jewish services, and a couple of other Christian denominations services. 

[Murphy101]

11 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Indeed. My DH is a pretty firm atheist, and the above is what bugs him the most about Christians, I think. He says God always gets all the credit and never any of the blame. Which is of course true. The contortions used to try to explain the "why" of that kind of fascinate me (even though I don't find any of them at all convincing), but he doesn't have the patience for any of it and so it just flat out bugs him.

Meh. Catholic teaching is to give God all of it.  The problem is Christian or not, it’s not polite to discuss the bad things in life. Smile. Act normal. Don’t be rude. Don’t be emotional. Unless you want to be angry. Anger is allowed.  These are the tenets of daily life in America. And it’s great to be Christian but not TOO Christian bc any real theology or deep discussion beyond platitudes makes people super uncomfortable with themselves. They want to maintain their deeply shallow status. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Murphy101

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

Oh, no doubt. Almost without exception, everyone in my social circles is:

Anti-vax

Anti-mask

Anti-BLM

Anti-animal rights

Anti-universal healthcare

Anti-welfare

Anti-science

And on and on.

I am none of those things, but it has often been assumed that I am. When to speak and when to be silent can be a tricky, awkward thing, affecting not only myself, but my daughter and her relationships.

When the Bill Nye Ken Ham debate was going to air someone at church asked if I was planning to watch it.  I answered matter-of-factly, "No, I find both of them repellent human beings." I was very careful not to show any indication of the laughter I felt as I watched her struggle to process my response.  She was genuinely surprised. Someone wasn't adulting well in the very diverse environment we lived in.

At the annual homeschool convention there was a teenager trying to get signatures to get something or someone on the next ballot-I forget the details. No attempt was made to explain to me who it was or why their approach to politics was a good idea, just an assumption that I would likely want to sign it.  I asked, "Wouldn't I have to be a registered Republican to sign it?" He said yes enthusiastically. I paused a moment to let it sink in, but it didn't.  (He was nervous talking to strangers, so it's not because he was an idiot or anything.) Then I said nicely, "I'm not a Republican." And the look on his face showed he clearly had not even considered that a possibility. Somebody's mommy and daddy didn't prepare him for life.

[Pam in CT]

re "Anger is allowed"

12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Meh. Catholic teaching is to give God all of it.  The problem is Christian or not, it’s not polite to discuss the bad things in life. Smile. Act normal. Don’t be rude. Don’t be emotional. Unless you want to be angry. Anger is allowed.  These are the tenets of daily life in America. And it’s great to be Christian but not TOO Christian bc any real theology or deep discussion beyond platitudes makes people super uncomfortable with themselves. They want to maintain their deeply shallow status. 

I agree with this, with the caveat that "anger is allowed" when directed at other PEOPLE -- particularly, back around to the OP, people who are godless secular and/or from minority religions, or vax status or political party or [__fill in the blank__ category of Other Team].

There is a pretty strong taboo in many faith circles against expressing anger AT GOD, though... which I think underpins the reason why God so often gets "credit for the good things" while the bad things get glossed over or ascribed to human evil or insufficient prayer fervor or whatever.

Which is ironic.  To my reading of Job, he was not just unconvinced, but pretty **pissed off,** by all the acrobatic apologetics of the "friends," and by the injustice of his circumstances.  And to my reading, when God finally showed up, God made pretty clear that Job was RIGHT.

 

There's a pretty strong tradition in Judaism, running from Abraham through parts of the psalms and prophets straight through to Elie Wiesel, of Jews vehemently arguing with/railing at God. The idea is, it's all right to express fury: God can take it.  But there also isn't quite the same insistence that God is (definitionally, as a premise) all-good.

[Ceilingfan]

What would be the corollary to the Shema for Christians, do you think? I agree that the sense (at least in Conservative and Reform, am less familiar with Orthodox or the Haredi) that the central truth is that God is One and Ours, not necessarily that he's universally beneficent, necessarily.

[Melissa Louise]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:19 AM, Murphy101 said:

I think 3 things:

1) people are stupid and self-centered. It’s rare they are thinking before speaking, much less thinking of how others will take their words before speaking.

2) God must be entirely loving and merciful not to just smite us all on any given day bc of #1 alone.  

3) I think… gently… I can give all the credit to God for being alive AND for not abandoning me if I die. Same for my husband and my kids and others.  I think prayer matters to being able to find that peace. I think prayer community helps to shore up my weak and sorry self (# 1) to aid in remembering  #2.

Always default to #1 before getting cranky about the God stuff.  IME, if they weren’t saying something about God, I promise you they’d say something equally thoughtless still.  If more people would just recognize they are uncomfortable and don’t know wth is helpful to say and just shut up, it’d probably be more helpful. But #1 makes that hard for most people. 

1. x 100.

Reflecting on my less then fun interactions with the religious (minimal), the people involved were people I was already wary of. Very certain of themselves, and not in an 'quiet humble' way. I already didn't like them, before they started their ineffective campaigns of bringing us into the fold ( or at least keeping us out of theirs!) They did seem to cluster in a particular sect, but that may have been co-incidence. 

I would def smite us if I'd gone to all the trouble of making a beautiful earth and then seeing what we decided to do with it, so lucky I'm not God. 

Yes, people are thoughtless. All of us are at one time or another. Some of us make a terrible habit of it. 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

There's a pretty strong tradition in Judaism, running from Abraham through parts of the psalms and prophets straight through to Elie Wiesel, of Jews vehemently arguing with/railing at God. The idea is, it's all right to express fury: God can take it.  But there also isn't quite the same insistence that God is (definitionally, as a premise) all-good.

This made me laugh (nicely) because it makes it sound like God is the OG psychoanalyst. 

 

[Ceilingfan]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

This made me laugh (nicely) because it makes it sound like God is the OG psychoanalyst. 

 

My reaction too, lol

[Pam in CT]

re Go ahead, I can take it

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

This made me laugh (nicely) because it makes it sound like God is the OG psychoanalyst. 

 

One could run pretty far, and fruitfully, with this image, I expect.

[DreamerGirl]

4 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

So I give a lot of grace to missionaries, and to people I know who ask about church, and even suggest its virtues. It hurts my feelings to be proselytized to by someone I thought was actually interested in me, but I understand the drive.

I heavily disagree with this. I come from a country where the Church of England was used as a tool of colonization. I am born Christian born in that country where we are a tiny minority. My ancestors converted during colonization. I do not know if they were coerced by offering them things as they were uneducated and most likely not wealthy. I am also Anglican though on my way out.

The Anglican Church apologized for its role in colonization. Missionaries were the face often of it.

This was a modus operandi around the world especially among Indigenous people of various parts of British colonization and the Church of England was heavily involved. The Anglican church leaders have been apologizing for various heinous acts 

https://www.anglican.ca/tr/apology/

'https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2018/12/anglican-church-of-new-zealand-apologises-for-colonial-era-maori-land-snatch.aspx

The Congo has a particularly terrible history more than the usual horror of Colonization and the church was involved,

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/women-african-mothers-belgium-seek-reparation-80573901

This is a modern missionary tale of a poor young man who was encouraged by people who should have known better.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-missionary-killed-intl/index.html

The horror of history of several countries does not agree with your assessment. Sorry.

 

4 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

Really, I don't understand how conservative, observant Christians ever do anything except win souls to Christ. How could any other activity matter in comparison? It's eternal torment! 

I could write paragraphs and point to so called fire and brimstone preachers who specialize in guilting people and earn money and their hypocritical ways. But I will just use my experience. I was raised with that belief. That and the idea of eternal life with my family. Eternal torment is terrifying and eternal life with my family was tempting. But I let that fear cloud my doubts for far too long. Quite recently, I sat down and came to a conclusion that it is a belief. Just like the belief systems of other religions. I grew up with more devout and better people of multiple religions than me in every way. So what makes my belief more valid that theirs in its truth as to what happens when we die. We all believe ours is the truth. But the absolute truth is no one knows. So I am willing to take the risk. Eternal fire or rebirth until you reach a higher state.

When Delta surged in my country of origin, every single religion opened up their place of worship for vaccination camps, infusions, food. People do not need a particular religion to be good or help.

I want be the best person I can be, try to raise good children and you do not need Christianity or even religion for that. I have met too many good people who do not believe in God for that. Who are good not because they are scared of what happens when they die, but because they choose to be good, kind people because that is who they are.

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, DreamerGirl said:

I heavily disagree with this. I come from a country where the Church of England was used as a tool of colonization. I am born Christian born in that country where we are a tiny minority. My ancestors converted during colonization. I do not know if they were coerced by offering them things as they were uneducated and most likely not wealthy.

The Anglican Church apologized for its role in colonization. Missionaries were the face often of it.

Yep. And it wasn't just the Anglican Church and it wasn't just your country - missionaries of a variety of Christian Churches were agents of colonialism all over the world

[Ceilingfan]

Of course it is a belief, dreamergal, and of course as an atheist I think it's an erroneous one. Certainly I think laws shouldn't allow abuse or violence in the name of any belief. 

But it is hard for me to understand, rationally, why Christians who do believe in hell without acceptance of Jesus do anything except proselytize with any method legally allowed. It's just the rational conclusion of the belief.

 

When I spoke about giving grace to missionaries, I meant modern Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist, the kind I've experienced.

But even if we're talking about the horrors of colonization, while it was evil (and while modern missionaries are annoying), the logic from their point of view makes a lot of sense. No amount of earthly horror can compare to eternal torment. This is why I find the belief itself problematic - because it implies a lot of dangerous and antisocial conclusions.

[DreamerGirl]

1 minute ago, Ceilingfan said:

But it is hard for me to understand, rationally, why Christians who do believe in hell without acceptance of Jesus do anything except proselytize with any method legally allowed. It's just the rational conclusion of the belief.

 

There is a Hindu story I grew up with where one of the heavenly beings goes to God and asks who is the most devout. God points to a very humble man on Earth. The heavenly being is one who repeats the name of that God in every sentence and is outraged so goes down to earth to observe the man's day.

The man rises at dawn and prays to God. Then he goes about his day working, raising a family and at the end of his day he prays to God and goes to bed.

So the heavenly being goes back to God and asks why it was that the ordinary man was more devout that him since he did not think of God more than twice a day. God explains that when the heavenly being has nothing to do but be around God, he punctuates every sentence with His name. But the mortal has other responsibilities yet his first and final thought is of God. 

So I will say, an ordinary Christian goes about their day as any other person. Work, children, church. They do what they can through ordinary acts of kindness and living a life as a good person. That is best testimony I think more than any annoying, in your face screaming and proselytizing. An ordinary Christian who is a truly good person is the best missionary IMO

[livetoread]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Indeed. My DH is a pretty firm atheist, and the above is what bugs him the most about Christians, I think. He says God always gets all the credit and never any of the blame. Which is of course true. The contortions used to try to explain the "why" of that kind of fascinate me (even though I don't find any of them at all convincing), but he doesn't have the patience for any of it and so it just flat out bugs him.

The problem of evil (which is the core of that) is why I eventually lost my faith. I tried and tried and tried to come up with an answer that wasn't contradictory and didn't fly in the face of what I could see with my own two eyes about the world but finally failed. I called it the dance of the veiled deity - the nature, abilities, and characteristics of God change 180 depending on what explanation is needed at the time, but no matter what, God is perfectly good. It made my head hurt all the contradictions.

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re "Anger is allowed"

I agree with this, with the caveat that "anger is allowed" when directed at other PEOPLE -- particularly, back around to the OP, people who are godless secular and/or from minority religions, or vax status or political party or [__fill in the blank__ category of Other Team].

There is a pretty strong taboo in many faith circles against expressing anger AT GOD, though... which I think underpins the reason why God so often gets "credit for the good things" while the bad things get glossed over or ascribed to human evil or insufficient prayer fervor or whatever.

Which is ironic.  To my reading of Job, he was not just unconvinced, but pretty **pissed off,** by all the acrobatic apologetics of the "friends," and by the injustice of his circumstances.  And to my reading, when God finally showed up, God made pretty clear that Job was RIGHT.

 

There's a pretty strong tradition in Judaism, running from Abraham through parts of the psalms and prophets straight through to Elie Wiesel, of Jews vehemently arguing with/railing at God. The idea is, it's all right to express fury: God can take it.  But there also isn't quite the same insistence that God is (definitionally, as a premise) all-good.

Yeah.  There were a lot of gasps when I stood up in church and told the pastor that if the things he said were true, that God was a sadistic, capricious bastard who was completely unworthy of worship.  Apparently saying that was completely beyond the pale.  

[Indigo Blue]

The last two years has really been eye opening. I had been struggling with things, but this has made it worse. I don’t agree with so many things. I don’t exclude certain groups of people or believe they are condemned. Whatever beliefs I have inside me…..I just want to be a decent person first.

I have been in church since I meet dh. I’ve heard all the things in this thread. Yes. Yes, I do find it off-putting. I know what’s in my heart, but it’s conflicted with what’s expected of me, and it’s not who I am.

[Melissa Louise]

40 minutes ago, livetoread said:

The problem of evil (which is the core of that) is why I eventually lost my faith. I tried and tried and tried to come up with an answer that wasn't contradictory and didn't fly in the face of what I could see with my own two eyes about the world but finally failed. I called it the dance of the veiled deity - the nature, abilities, and characteristics of God change 180 depending on what explanation is needed at the time, but no matter what, God is perfectly good. It made my head hurt all the contradictions.

I lost my faith over this too.

(This is just me using your post as a prompt to musing - it's not directed to you personally. )

Twenty years later, I'm happily on the border between agnosticism and theism, and the problem of evil is not solved for me so much as accepted as one of many mysteries. 

I certainly don't think 'God' - whatever God is - is perfectly good. 

It's probably easier when you don't have a concept of God as a person, a Father, but see The More Than as abstract,  patterned and numinous. 

I was a solid atheist for a long time. Plenty of happy, life long atheists.

I'm personally much happier as an theist-leaning agnostic. 

I still can't imagine trying to find out who else is a theist-leaning agnostic around me! (I mean, I know where to find them, but wouldn't ask a random!)

 

[livetoread]

46 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm personally much happier as an theist-leaning agnostic. 

I'll give my disclaimer, too! Not directed to you personally and I'm glad you have found something that works for you now - which is personal. 

On my own journey to non belief, I spent some time as a Tillich "Ground of All Being" theist-leaning agnostic, but ultimately it was unsatisfying for me. I kept asking, "What is this deity like? Does it do anything?" followed by, "And how do you know that?" and found that the dance of the veiled deity became more frenzied the more vague the theology - at least among the very progressive theological sort.

There was much running back and forth between God as the Great Unknown (lots of capitalizing in that group) whenever the theology got tough and God as something I should care about because...well, that part varied. In the end I concluded (and still feel this way) that there could very well be a "Ground of All Being" unknowable, undefinable sort of something out there, but I have no idea why I should care. Any claims as to the nature of such a being are useless because of the undefinable, unknowable part. If this being was good and loved me or something, I would care, but whoops, unknowable, so how do we know it's good or loving or personal or anything, really? It's the evidence to the contrary that throws a monkey wrench into the good, loving thing (and makes the theology tough) so back we go into the vague mystery of this deity's nature.

[Melissa Louise]

27 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I'll give my disclaimer, too! Not directed to you personally and I'm glad you have found something that works for you now - which is personal. 

On my own journey to non belief, I spent some time as a Tillich "Ground of All Being" theist-leaning agnostic, but ultimately it was unsatisfying for me. I kept asking, "What is this deity like? Does it do anything?" followed by, "And how do you know that?" and found that the dance of the veiled deity became more frenzied the more vague the theology - at least among the very progressive theological sort.

There was much running back and forth between God as the Great Unknown (lots of capitalizing in that group) whenever the theology got tough and God as something I should care about because...well, that part varied. In the end I concluded (and still feel this way) that there could very well be a "Ground of All Being" unknowable, undefinable sort of something out there, but I have no idea why I should care. Any claims as to the nature of such a being are useless because of the undefinable, unknowable part. If this being was good and loved me or something, I would care, but whoops, unknowable, so how do we know it's good or loving or personal or anything, really? It's the evidence to the contrary that throws a monkey wrench into the good, loving thing (and makes the theology tough) so back we go into the vague mystery of this deity's nature.

I find it really fascinating hearing about other people's experience! Thanks!

I went from belief to atheism without a stop in between. Just like a tap being turned off, really. 

I am pretty uninterested in theology now. For me, God is just experiential and sprang at me out of the pages of my neuropsychology textbook. Not in a 'oh wow, God made our brains' way, but in a 'ahh, the patterns, the nets holding reality together, vague math-love thoughts'. 

OK. So there's a reason I keep my spirituality private and don't ask others if they share it 😂

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am pretty uninterested in theology now. For me, God is just experiential and sprang at me out of the pages of my neuropsychology textbook. Not in a 'oh wow, God made our brains' way, but in a 'ahh, the patterns, the nets holding reality together, vague math-love thoughts'. 

I totally get that. The thing that gets me closest to some sort of belief anymore is thinking about why there is something instead of nothing. Why a universe instead of nothing? I find it beyond comprehension really. Answering, "Because God," doesn't do it for me (lots of reasons) but the question makes me feel so humbled and full of awe that something does exist and I have absolutely no idea why. Or how.