this is a dumb question, so talk to me like I am not really bright

[Frances]

2 hours ago, ***** said:

Society seems to have deemed the caring of the elderly as insignificant as well.  So many assisted living places have unskilled /undereducated workers that in my opinion can be detrimental to the caring and safety of our elderly.  II can't even imagine what is going on in assisted living places anymore, although I am sure there are still some that are better than others.  When my parents were alive, they lived in assisted living, so I have a good idea what goes on there. 

Not only that, but so many nursing home/long term care/assisted living facilities are chronically understaffed that it is very stressful for the employees. My son worked in a dementia facility the summer before he started college and he was very impressed by many of his coworkers, primarily single moms. Many of them were underemployed paramedics. Staffing was so bad he was constantly offered extra shifts. And the workers really had to work together in teams, but even then could rarely meet the minimum standards of care. Plus, because he could speak Spanish, he found out management was only allowing the dining staff to clock eight hours, but required them to finish certain work before they could leave, no matter how long they were there.

It was a very eye opening experience for him. And motivated him to do the training and certification to become a volunteer long term care ombudsman.

Right now in my state staffing issues are so bad at all of these types of facilities that some patients are unnecessarily being kept in the hospital, sometimes for more than a month, because there are no places with available beds. And it’s adding to stress on hospitals.

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, ***** said:

So I am wondering how all these people who have left their workplaces, perhaps are not working elsewhere yet, or working on their own, how are they paying for their healthcare insurance?  Out-of-pocket insurance cost is ridiculous!

Maybe it’s only an issue for the unemployed in states that didn’t expand Medicaid? I’m guessing it is the thing that will eventually send one of the people I mentioned upthread with mental health issues back into the work force. 

[historically accurate]

7 hours ago, Lori D. said:

In NO way meaning to diminish the sadness and horror of so much loss and pain and suffering from the covid deaths, but statistically, the impact of covid deaths on the work place is perhaps not as great as it might seem from looking at the sheer number of covid cases vs. deaths:

According to these figures, just under 206 million people of the almost 334 million people in the U.S. are of working age (defined as 15-64 years old). According to these figures, just about 80% of covid deaths in the U.S. were over age 65.

That means of the 750,000+ covid deaths, 150,000 were of working age, which is less than 1% of the working population.

I definitely agree that covid is much more responsible for worker decline for other-than-death reasons, which people have listed in this thread.

Maybe some of the childcare issues related to Grandparents passing away leaving parents scrambling to pay full price for childcare now. 

[Carrie12345]

So many reasons, and most of them already mentioned.

My 19yo just quit her “main” job. She’s been working for 3 different providers, with the main one being full time, providing excellent benefits, and offering to pay for the next stage of her training (in return for years of service.) Good gig, with good pay (for that sector.) But the management of the company is horrendous, and many of the coworkers were awful and had questionable backgrounds/character. The idea of staying there made her feel sick.

If that had been me, my mom’s advice would definitely have been to suck it up and stick it out, basically forever. Don’t make waves. Think of the future. Yadda, yadda.

Dh and I encouraged her to quit, and were probably the final push when we reminded her that she was eligible to be on our insurance. 

In her case, she was able to increase hours at her other locations, so it may have been easier for her than some others, but the main idea remains the same; you don’t sacrifice yourself for a crummy company. There are other companies that treat people better. Find them. Eventually, if enough people do the same, the crummy ones will have to choose whether to get better or close.

I have always wanted to burn it all down, but didn’t have the guts. Now I’m in a position where I can back my kids doing it, and it’s glorious. I didn’t make entire human beings just so that they could hate the bulk of their waking hours.

[kristin0713]

Another reason that has not been mentioned and is probably unpopular to talk about here is extended unemployment and eviction moratoriums due to covid. I know people personally who continued to collect unemployment because it was more than they were making (specifically young adults living at home) even through last summer. I know landlords that have suffered terribly because of the eviction moratorium. NJ didn’t stop the extended unemployment until September and I think the moratorium is still not fully lifted yet, or it might have expired in September but it is impossible to evict in the winter. I have seen abuse of this firsthand and while I don’t think it is the *only* reason for a worker shortage, it has definitely been part of the problem here in NJ. 

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, DawnM said:

Yes, but I mean related to this particular situation.   It has always paid crap.   People have always struggled to pay.   But it hasn't been this hard to find childcare overall in the past, what has changed?   That is my question.

Of course there are those centers that have traditionally had long wait list and sign ups in January and the like, but you could usually find somewhere.

Places like Walmart and Amazon are paying $15-$20 an hour in lots of places. I doubt many child care workers are making that much around here. So it's probably easy for many of them to find jobs that pay more.

 

[Carrie12345]

34 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Another reason that has not been mentioned and is probably unpopular to talk about here is extended unemployment and eviction moratoriums due to covid. I know people personally who continued to collect unemployment because it was more than they were making (specifically young adults living at home) even through last summer. I know landlords that have suffered terribly because of the eviction moratorium. NJ didn’t stop the extended unemployment until September and I think the moratorium is still not fully lifted yet, or it might have expired in September but it is impossible to evict in the winter. I have seen abuse of this firsthand and while I don’t think it is the *only* reason for a worker shortage, it has definitely been part of the problem here in NJ. 

An equally unpopular opinion: The term “real estate investment” is on the same plane as any other investment opportunity. There are downturns. It is a risk. You trade stagnant cash for potential (and historically good) gains over the long term. Sometimes an investment goes bad, often just in the short term.  The investor must choose whether to ride out the storm or sell.  

[DawnM]

7 hours ago, easypeasy said:

I personally know three teachers who have turned in their notice and are only staying til the holiday break. I know two more who are considering. The only teachers I know who are *staying* are those who are close to retirement.

It's insane right now in schools - what these people are expected to do in a day. The PARENTS, alone!! Oh my GOSH.

For instance - one of my friends had a kid with lice in her classroom. They sent him home, right? He came back two days later and the next day, the assistant noticed a live nit on the kid's head. They sent him to the principal who sent him right back to class and said they needed to "capture" the live bug and send it to the school nurse (who didn't work that day because she's on an alternating schedule with another school because of the shortage).

They wait til the nurse is back at work a day or two later, capture a bug on a piece of tape and take it to the school nurse, who confirms it is what it is and they send him home. Again.

He comes back the next day with a doctor's note that says his head was "clear."

His head was not, in fact, clear. Assistant sees more nits - teacher talks to principal. Principal says they can't "target" this kid by checking his head every day and she would not "hear" any further discussion about this kid's head.

Kid attends school for the week.

Other kids start getting lice and have to stay home from school. One poor kid, on the spectrum, got his head shaved because of the lice and is STILL crying about his hair everytime he sees his reflection.

Original kid? Still attending class. Still has nits.

Teachers are wearing their hair pulled up.

And that's just one story. 😞

The teachers are having to empty trash cans, they are having to assist with food prep (because there are so few cafeteria workers left). Kids are late because there are too few bus drivers...

What a mess. I'd quit too.

 

 

My dh is also in corporate world and has seen a similar exodus in some other companies he works with, but for less apparent reasons than teachers.

 

Bizarro-World right now.

 Bizarro is right.

I am SO THANKFUL for my new job in a fully remote school.   The bus situation alone was a mess.   I was having to go in 45 min. before school and stay 45 min. after just for transportation issues.   Bus drivers are driving double and triple runs.

I work in a remote school, but we still go into a building so that the staff can work together.   Although we are planning to start going to a hybrid type schedule soon, and work from home 3 days per week.   I can't wait.

I have only worked in middle and high school, so the lice issues hasn't been as bad.

I do wonder what is going to happen with the new variant.

[kristin0713]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

An equally unpopular opinion: The term “real estate investment” is on the same plane as any other investment opportunity. There are downturns. It is a risk.

Of course it is. My point is that the moratorium on evictions has contributed to the worker shortage. People are able to delay going back to work if they can delay paying rent. Not saying that some of them don't have a valid reason, just saying it is a factor. 

[DawnM]

54 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Another reason that has not been mentioned and is probably unpopular to talk about here is extended unemployment and eviction moratoriums due to covid. I know people personally who continued to collect unemployment because it was more than they were making (specifically young adults living at home) even through last summer. I know landlords that have suffered terribly because of the eviction moratorium. NJ didn’t stop the extended unemployment until September and I think the moratorium is still not fully lifted yet, or it might have expired in September but it is impossible to evict in the winter. I have seen abuse of this firsthand and while I don’t think it is the *only* reason for a worker shortage, it has definitely been part of the problem here in NJ. 

I thought most of the unemployment was no longer a thing.   Several of those I knew who were getting it has it run out.

The landlord thing is a MESS.   I feel so bad for landlords right now.   

[Pawz4me]

Around here the public schools have historically largely relied on retired people who want to pick up a little extra cash to fill the need for bus drivers. A year or three prior pandemic it became more problematic (for reasons unknown to me) to fill those driver positions, and some school systems started requiring that all teachers and assistants had to obtain their CDL and be willing to fill in as bus drivers when necessary. And that went over like a lead balloon. So there was a problem already. Then comes the pandemic and some of the older drivers decided the extra money wasn't worth the exposure risk and . . . the bus driver situation is a real mess.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Pawz4me

[TechWife]

11 hours ago, DawnM said:

Why is childcare a problem to find?

I wouldn't say my husband's job is "lesser desired" at all, but people are leaving.....

And you are right about the retirement.   I do know people taking early retirement right now.   I don't have stats on that, but I have heard of it going on.

 

Childcare is hard to find because it is $$$$ and unaffordable for many. There are fewer people working in the field because preschool teachers make even less than other teachers with worse hours & worse adult:child ratios. 

[kristin0713]

4 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I thought most of the unemployment was no longer a thing.   Several of those I knew who were getting it has it run out.

The landlord thing is a MESS.   I feel so bad for landlords right now.   

There was definitely extended pandemic unemployment here in NJ over the summer. I'm pretty sure it ran out in September. I don't know what kind of circumstances people had to claim to keep it that long. 

[DawnM]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Around here the public schools have historically largely relied on retired people who want to pick up a little extra cash to fill the need for bus drivers. A year or three prior pandemic it became more problematic (for reasons unknown to me) to fill those driver positions, and some school systems started requiring that all teachers and assistants had to obtain their CDL and be willing to fill in as bus drivers when necessary. And that went over like a lead balloon. So there was a problem already. Then comes the pandemic and some of the older drivers decided the extra money wasn't worth the exposure risk and . . . the bus driver situation is a real mess.

What the what?????

NO WAY would I do that.  Nope, absolutely not.  Not happening.  

[DawnM]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Childcare is hard to find because it is $$$$ and unaffordable for many. There are fewer people working in the field because preschool teachers make even less than other teachers with worse hours & worse adult:child ratios. 

but none of that is a different reality than it was 4 years ago.

[Danae]

3 minutes ago, DawnM said:

but none of that is a different reality than it was 4 years ago.

But if the sustainability of the system was balanced on a hair 4 years ago (and it was) then it only takes a small shift to throw it off.

[DawnM]

Just now, Danae said:

But if the sustainability of the system was balanced on a hair 4 years ago (and it was) then it only takes a small shift to throw it off.

gotcha

[TechWife]

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

In NO way meaning to diminish the sadness and horror of so much loss and pain and suffering from the covid deaths, but statistically, the impact of covid deaths on the work place is perhaps not as great as it might seem from looking at the sheer number of covid cases vs. deaths:

According to these figures, just under 206 million people of the almost 334 million people in the U.S. are of working age (defined as 15-64 years old). According to these figures, just about 80% of covid deaths in the U.S. were over age 65.

That means of the 750,000+ covid deaths, 150,000 were of working age, which is less than 1% of the working population.

I definitely agree that covid is much more responsible for worker decline for other-than-death reasons, which people have listed in this thread.

Many of the older people that died provided child care for family members. Losing free/affordable child care forces people out of work. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by TechWife

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Childcare is hard to find because it is $$$$ and unaffordable for many. There are fewer people working in the field because preschool teachers make even less than other teachers with worse hours & worse adult:child ratios. 

 

3 minutes ago, DawnM said:

but none of that is a different reality than it was 4 years ago.

Tolerance is though. As is risk.  How many people want crap pay to be all up in unvaccinated kids? 0-5s still can’t get shots.

I think a lot of people were pushed to reevaluate their finances.  When I worked daycare (and paid a discounted rate for ds to be there,) every dollar coming in seemed to count. When I was forced* to reevaluate, there were other ways to make things work besides spending 40 hours a week under exhausting conditions.

* “Forced” might be too harsh.  I was having a second kid, by choice.  Reevaluation was still definitely necessary.

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, ***** said:

So I am wondering how all these people who have left their workplaces, perhaps are not working elsewhere yet, or working on their own, how are they paying for their healthcare insurance?  Out-of-pocket insurance cost is ridiculous!

 

Many in the workforce didn’t have insurance through their workplace, so for them nothing changes. Many just don’t have insurance now. This will continue to take a toll on people’s health & our healthcare system in general. 

[kirstenhill]

26 minutes ago, Danae said:

But if the sustainability of the system was balanced on a hair 4 years ago (and it was) then it only takes a small shift to throw it off.

This! My friend who was working daycare and really enjoyed it went from it being a low paying but adequate job, to having multiple weeks not working (and of course not getting paid) due to covid quarantines due to exposure at work.  Or other weeks her room at the daycare was closed due to a case, and even if she wasn't directly exposed, she still couldn't work with her room not being open.  The income became too inconsistent and she found another job. I really wonder what all those working parents did the multiple weeks the daycare room was closed.  

I know several older (65+) people who were working part time jobs in retirement who decided not to return to those jobs. They will just make do with other retirement savings. 

[Carrie12345]

I might be looking at things “wrong”, but it bothers me that we count 15-17/18yos as part of the official workforce.   
Like, I know they often work. My own kids have. But there’s a wide range of reasons, from pocket money to contributing to the household.  I made my teenager stay home for a long time in order to limit our exposure. She doesn’t have “real life” financial obligations. 
 

Also, she recently struggled to get a temporary job. Out of all the “help wanted” businesses, she heard back from exactly 1.  With a solid work history and being old enough to not have to worry about child labor laws. Hm.

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

his! My friend who was working daycare and really enjoyed it went from it being a low paying but adequate job, to having multiple weeks not working (and of course not getting paid) due to covid quarantines due to exposure at work.  Or other weeks her room at the daycare was closed due to a case, and even if she wasn't directly exposed, she still couldn't work with her room not being open.  The income became too inconsistent and she found another job. I really wonder what all those working parents did the multiple weeks the daycare room was closed.  

Probably got forced out of their own jobs by the 2nd or 3rd time. 

[Pawz4me]

25 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Also, she recently struggled to get a temporary job. Out of all the “help wanted” businesses, she heard back from exactly 1.  With a solid work history and being old enough to not have to worry about child labor laws. Hm.

I hear this repeatedly on my neighborhood (well, it's for the entire northern end of my county) FB page. People complain about such-and-such fast food place or dollar store type place being closed due to lack of workers and multiple people respond saying they (or more frequently their teenager) applied two/three weeks ago without any response from the business. It does indeed make one go hmmmm.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

but none of that is a different reality than it was 4 years ago.

The culture & environment have drastically changed. We are asking people to do more crap & take more risks for the same amount of money.

More generally: Frankly, a lot of workers in low paying fields like child care, retail & hospitality are fed up. People are angrier than ever, frustrated, & they take it out on people they think can’t strike back. People are finding out that the ultimate tool is to quit. So they do, often for the sake of their overall well being.

I’ve observed over the years, with a few exceptions, that the lower a service worker is in the chain of command, the fewer actual management skills the managers have so they are worse at scheduling, treat the employees that report to them like disposable people, act in authoritarian ways and engage in bullying. Nothing attractive about working in that at all. 

[Soror]

28 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Another reason that has not been mentioned and is probably unpopular to talk about here is extended unemployment and eviction moratoriums due to covid. I know people personally who continued to collect unemployment because it was more than they were making (specifically young adults living at home) even through last summer. I know landlords that have suffered terribly because of the eviction moratorium. NJ didn’t stop the extended unemployment until September and I think the moratorium is still not fully lifted yet, or it might have expired in September but it is impossible to evict in the winter. I have seen abuse of this firsthand and while I don’t think it is the *only* reason for a worker shortage, it has definitely been part of the problem here in NJ. 

In my area this is all I hear about - and I agree that it is an issue to a degree. The median *family* income is only $40k, so the stimulus and extra unemployment could put families over their regular paying jobs- without the hassle and stress of working in a pandemic. With the eviction moratorium and not having to worry about losing your home, why not.

Yet, I think that is only a very small piece of the pie. Our state ended the extra unemployment benefits months ago, still there are tons of help wanted signs and people complain they can't get help. I can see if I was older I'd just rather retire than deal with trying to work in pandemic- too much stress, stress with learning new technology at home, stress of worrying about getting sick if you have to work in person, the stress of disgruntled customers. 

I also think businesses have not kept pace with what workers want. Having had such a large number of people end up working at home, your going to have many that don't want to give that up. Businesses need to keep up with the times. Not everyone wants to work at home and not all jobs can be done at home, but as we've figured out many can and flexibility is paramount. People don't want to be married to our jobs, there are more important things.

[marbel]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

People complain about such-and-such fast food place or dollar store type place being closed due to lack of workers and multiple people respond saying they (or more frequently their teenager) applied two/three weeks ago without any response from the business.

Yep, I've seen this too. I don't know if the employers are being too picky or what, but they say "hiring" but they don't appear to be. It's a weird thing, to have people unable to get hired while other people are complaining about the lazy folk who won't work when jobs are available.

I know some people who are not going back to retail or food service jobs because they are sick of dealing with rude (and beyond) customers, shoplifters, etc.  The "general public" is losing it - people have no patience or kindness for service workers at all.  

 

[mom2scouts]

8 hours ago, ***** said:

Society seems to have deemed the caring of the elderly as insignificant as well.  So many assisted living places have unskilled /undereducated workers that in my opinion can be detrimental to the caring and safety of our elderly.  II can't even imagine what is going on in assisted living places anymore, although I am sure there are still some that are better than others.  When my parents were alive, they lived in assisted living, so I have a good idea what goes on there. 

An assisted living community near me had financial issues that were exacerbated by the pandemic. The staff started leaving until there were very few people trying to care for the whole community. The place needed to shut down and the residents were all told they had a week or two to move somewhere else and during those weeks they didn't have food service or much care. Many were on Medicaid and had trouble finding a place to go. Fortunately, the community stepped in to provide food and help people move, but what happened to those elderly people was horrible.

[Longtime Lurker]

7 hours ago, Tap said:

Everyone's situation is different, but my son, who is over 26 (so no longer on my insurance) and a full time student, used to have to pay for his health insurance through the ACA website. Since COVID started, his copay has been zero or almost zero due to government assistance.  His pay has increased over time, so it isn't that he is working less, there is just more money available to help pay for health insurance right now. 

Yes, the ACA Marketplace is a very good option right now for those without jobs or with low/medium incomes. We are finally making some progress at severing the workplace/healthcare connection.

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, ***** said:

Society seems to have deemed the caring of the elderly as insignificant as well.  So many assisted living places have unskilled /undereducated workers that in my opinion can be detrimental to the caring and safety of our elderly.  II can't even imagine what is going on in assisted living places anymore, although I am sure there are still some that are better than others.  When my parents were alive, they lived in assisted living, so I have a good idea what goes on there. 

 

2 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

An assisted living community near me had financial issues that were exacerbated by the pandemic. The staff started leaving until there were very few people trying to care for the whole community. The place needed to shut down and the residents were all told they had a week or two to move somewhere else and during those weeks they didn't have food service or much care. Many were on Medicaid and had trouble finding a place to go. Fortunately, the community stepped in to provide food and help people move, but what happened to those elderly people was horrible.

I looked at state gov’t job listings the other day. “Aging Case Aide 2”, $26,514.17 annually. Experience required.

 

[fraidycat]

42 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

I looked at state gov’t job listings the other day. “Aging Case Aide 2”, $26,514.17 annually. Experience required.

 

Wow! That is asinine on the part of the state. Have they not raised pay since 1970!?!

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I hear this repeatedly on my neighborhood (well, it's for the entire northern end of my county) FB page. People complain about such-and-such fast food place or dollar store type place being closed due to lack of workers and multiple people respond saying they (or more frequently their teenager) applied two/three weeks ago without any response from the business. It does indeed make one go hmmmm.

My teen has applied to 15 places - all with signs saying help wanted. She did not get any callbacks. She was finally interviewed by the library I work at because I gave my boss a heads up. I don't think the new internet only applications are actually getting to the hiring managers.

Edited December 4, 2021 by historically accurate

[fraidycat]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

So many reasons, and most of them already mentioned.

My 19yo just quit her “main” job. She’s been working for 3 different providers, with the main one being full time, providing excellent benefits, and offering to pay for the next stage of her training (in return for years of service.) Good gig, with good pay (for that sector.) But the management of the company is horrendous, and many of the coworkers were awful and had questionable backgrounds/character. The idea of staying there made her feel sick.

If that had been me, my mom’s advice would definitely have been to suck it up and stick it out, basically forever. Don’t make waves. Think of the future. Yadda, yadda.

Dh and I encouraged her to quit, and were probably the final push when we reminded her that she was eligible to be on our insurance. 

In her case, she was able to increase hours at her other locations, so it may have been easier for her than some others, but the main idea remains the same; you don’t sacrifice yourself for a crummy company. There are other companies that treat people better. Find them. Eventually, if enough people do the same, the crummy ones will have to choose whether to get better or close.

I have always wanted to burn it all down, but didn’t have the guts. Now I’m in a position where I can back my kids doing it, and it’s glorious. I didn’t make entire human beings just so that they could hate the bulk of their waking hours.

I'm with you here. DD graduated high school right at the beginning of the pandemic - June 2020, and decided not to pursue university in the fall of 2020 (all online), and has since decided to change her course of study so had been working. DH and I have encouraged her to quit two jobs due to be treated extremely poorly by managers at one place and customers (and one manager) at the other place. In both situations she was the one riding it out and pushing through, then calling us crying from the parking lot or coming home crying until I put my foot down and said "Nope, you deserve better than that, you are quitting."

It might sound like DD is the problem after having gone through two jobs in 18 months, but having met her co-workers and other managers I have received unsolicited "reviews" of her work ethic when patronizing the businesses. Actual quotes I received from co-workers/lower managers while buying items at the counter "Oh, you're her mom! We are so glad to have her because she makes our jobs easier." Or "She's my favorite because she's so reliable and works hard." These came from different people at different businesses and like I said, were unsolicited - I never asked how they liked working with her, she just introduced us - this is my Sally, this is my mom type of thing. In her last job, the owner and higher up managers offered her a shift management position and had started training her, but one of the other shift managers made life hell for her and the asshat customers were just the icing on the cake. So, she is currently unemployed and I am fine with that. She's exploring her options for school again and deciding on what she wants to take. She's got lots of years of being responsible ahead of her and having to "suck it up" when she's got bills to pay, so for now while I've got the opportunity, I will support her mental health over money.

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

Another reason that has not been mentioned and is probably unpopular to talk about here is extended unemployment and eviction moratoriums due to covid. I know people personally who continued to collect unemployment because it was more than they were making (specifically young adults living at home) even through last summer. I know landlords that have suffered terribly because of the eviction moratorium. NJ didn’t stop the extended unemployment until September and I think the moratorium is still not fully lifted yet, or it might have expired in September but it is impossible to evict in the winter. I have seen abuse of this firsthand and while I don’t think it is the *only* reason for a worker shortage, it has definitely been part of the problem here in NJ. 

Extended unemployment benefits have died most places. In any case, it’s a pandemic. The purpose of the extended benefit was to keep people at home.  It seems to have done its job. This is not a problem. 

Eviction moratoriums are a mess. In our state there were funds available for landlords. That is not true all the way around. Lifting eviction moratoriums isn’t going to help people, either. People at risk for eviction didn’t come upon a pot of gold during the pandemic - they aren’t going to able to pay back rent. In the long term, without aid, both landlords and tenants are going to be in a mess. I think we will see a lot of bankruptcies from both contingents. 

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

I really wonder what all those working parents did the multiple weeks the daycare room was closed. 

One of them becomes a stay at home parent. They figure a way to juggle working from home together and taking care of the kid together. Some people have back up plans with relatives and friends to watch their kids on those occurances.

[Terabith]

I also think the “nobody wants to work” thing is an excuse employers trot out to cut services.  I know a LOT of people who are very responsible and qualified who have applied at dozens of jobs that are advertising and have signs saying, “Be patient; nobody wants to work” and who have not been hired or even got calls back.  Lots of teens wanting to work entry level jobs at fast food or Walmart and who can’t get hired.  Also a lot of these jobs demand complete availability, with no knowledge of schedule until a day or two before, for less than full time work (no benefits).  You can’t work those requirements if you have kids or school or any other requirements.  

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, TechWife said:

Many of the older people that died provided child care for family members. Losing free/affordable child care forces people out of work. 

Have you seen any evidence of this?  I haven't seen any documentation in the labor economics literature.

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I might be looking at things “wrong”, but it bothers me that we count 15-17/18yos as part of the official workforce.   
Like, I know they often work. My own kids have. But there’s a wide range of reasons, from pocket money to contributing to the household.  I made my teenager stay home for a long time in order to limit our exposure. She doesn’t have “real life” financial obligations. 
 

Also, she recently struggled to get a temporary job. Out of all the “help wanted” businesses, she heard back from exactly 1.  With a solid work history and being old enough to not have to worry about child labor laws. Hm.

That age demographic is considered part of the working-age population, but not necessarily part of the labor force.  To be considered part of the labor force they must meet the definition of being employed or unemployed. students or those who are not looking for employment are not considered part of the labor force.  They would be considered when looking at the percentage of the population who is in the labor force, but they would not be counted in the size of hte labor force or the unemployment rate.

[TechWife]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Have you seen any evidence of this?  I haven't seen any documentation in the labor economics literature.

I haven’t. I’m not sure it would show up in labor literature. Do they include unpaid caregivers? I can see how they can track paid/licensed, but how would they do unpaid or people that pay w/
out withholding?  
 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I also think the “nobody wants to work” thing is an excuse employers trot out to cut services.  I know a LOT of people who are very responsible and qualified who have applied at dozens of jobs that are advertising and have signs saying, “Be patient; nobody wants to work” and who have not been hired or even got calls back.  Lots of teens wanting to work entry level jobs at fast food or Walmart and who can’t get hired.  Also a lot of these jobs demand complete availability, with no knowledge of schedule until a day or two before, for less than full time work (no benefits).  You can’t work those requirements if you have kids or school or any other requirements.  

Has anyone seen local news stories about this phenomenon?  I don’t at all doubt it is happening, but it seems exactly like the kind of thing that would make good local coverage.

[Pawz4me]

24 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Have you seen any evidence of this?  I haven't seen any documentation in the labor economics literature.

How in the world would it be documented? I'm truly curious? Like the case I'm most familiar with -- both grandmas are retired. Each cares for the grandkid two days a week. It's a totally low key/no money exchanged arrangement, your typical grandparents-helping-out scenario. If one or both grandma died or developed incapacitating long Covid the parents would be in a bind for childcare (I don't think either grandma alone could or would be willing take on the full burden), but I don't see how such cases would ever be documented?

Edited December 4, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Bootsie]

11 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I haven’t. I’m not sure it would show up in labor literature. Do they include unpaid caregivers? I can see how they can track paid/licensed, but how would they do unpaid or people that pay w/
out withholding?  
 

Unpaid caregivers would not show up as part of the labor force or employment statistics.  But, surveys are done regarding why people are NOT working.  So, if the decrease is labor force participation was being greatly impacted by people not working because they had depended upon a grandparent providing childcare and that grandparent died from COVID, that reason would be  You would also have to factor in the number of peope in recent years who have said they are not participating in the labor force because they are taking care of an elderly relative to understand how COVID deaths of older relatives has impacted labor force participation of the sandwich generation.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I also think the “nobody wants to work” thing is an excuse employers trot out to cut services.  I know a LOT of people who are very responsible and qualified who have applied at dozens of jobs that are advertising and have signs saying, “Be patient; nobody wants to work” and who have not been hired or even got calls back.  Lots of teens wanting to work entry level jobs at fast food or Walmart and who can’t get hired.  Also a lot of these jobs demand complete availability, with no knowledge of schedule until a day or two before, for less than full time work (no benefits).  You can’t work those requirements if you have kids or school or any other requirements.  

Yes - employers are engaging in the same crappy practices they have all along. People of all ages are fed up all the way around and have decided they just aren’t going to do it. If employers treat employees like they are disposable then they shouldn’t be shocked when people decide they are disposable as a) an employer and b) as a service provider. 

I think we might be in for a societal shift around consumerism due to this. I can see store hours being shorter- restaurants are already doing this. There will be adjustments in the cost of goods due to changes in the global supply chain as well. More items will be made locally which will be more reliable from a delivery perspective, but costs will be higher. This may be unpopular but if higher costs results in fairer compensation and better services through income taxes, then it will benefit our economy in a lot of ways. 

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Unpaid caregivers would not show up as part of the labor force or employment statistics.  But, surveys are done regarding why people are NOT working.  So, if the decrease is labor force participation was being greatly impacted by people not working because they had depended upon a grandparent providing childcare and that grandparent died from COVID, that reason would be  You would also have to factor in the number of peope in recent years who have said they are not participating in the labor force because they are taking care of an elderly relative to understand how COVID deaths of older relatives has impacted labor force participation of the sandwich generation.

So . . you'e saying that childcare issues in general are NOT showing up in the data as a reason for people leaving the work force? Or are you saying that the data is specific enough that it's showing minute details of the childcare issues, like (lack of) affordable care versus no longer having access to a grandparent or other family caregiver? My understanding--which I admit could be wrong due to both not following it closely and not having any expertise--was that issues surrounding childcare were a well accepted reason for people leaving the workforce? I'm not understanding if (or how) the data drills down on the nitty gritty details of that?

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

One of them becomes a stay at home parent. They figure a way to juggle working from home together and taking care of the kid together. Some people have back up plans with relatives and friends to watch their kids on those occurances.

This.
Millions of women have left the workforce since the pandemic began. 

“As the pandemic erupted in the spring of 2020, roughly 3.5 million mothers with school-age children either lost jobs, took leaves of absence or left the labor market altogether, according to an analysis by the Census Bureau.”

https://apnews.com/article/075d3b0ab89baffc5e2b9a80e11dcf34

[Bootsie]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

So . . you'e saying that childcare issues in general are NOT showing up in the data as a reason for people leaving the work force? Or are you saying that the data is specific enough that it's showing minute details of the childcare issues, like (lack of) affordable care versus no longer having access to a grandparent or other family caregiver? My understanding--which I admit could be wrong due to both not following it closely and not having any expertise--was that issues surrounding childcare were a well accepted reason for people leaving the workforce? I'm not understanding if (or how) the data drills down on the nitty gritty details of that?

What I am saying is that I have not seen evidence that the statement that  "Many of the older people that died provided child care for family members. Losing free/affordable child care forces people out of work." is a fact.  It may be someone's hypothesis.  Given that the labor force participation rate has fallen more by those who are 55 and older and the 15-17 year old age groups, my hypothesis would be that the death of a relative providing free child care from COVID has had a significant impact on the labor market.  

[MEmama]

2 hours ago, fraidycat said:

I'm with you here. DD graduated high school right at the beginning of the pandemic - June 2020, and decided not to pursue university in the fall of 2020 (all online), and has since decided to change her course of study so had been working. DH and I have encouraged her to quit two jobs due to be treated extremely poorly by managers at one place and customers (and one manager) at the other place. In both situations she was the one riding it out and pushing through, then calling us crying from the parking lot or coming home crying until I put my foot down and said "Nope, you deserve better than that, you are quitting."

It might sound like DD is the problem after having gone through two jobs in 18 months, but having met her co-workers and other managers I have received unsolicited "reviews" of her work ethic when patronizing the businesses. Actual quotes I received from co-workers/lower managers while buying items at the counter "Oh, you're her mom! We are so glad to have her because she makes our jobs easier." Or "She's my favorite because she's so reliable and works hard." These came from different people at different businesses and like I said, were unsolicited - I never asked how they liked working with her, she just introduced us - this is my Sally, this is my mom type of thing. In her last job, the owner and higher up managers offered her a shift management position and had started training her, but one of the other shift managers made life hell for her and the asshat customers were just the icing on the cake. So, she is currently unemployed and I am fine with that. She's exploring her options for school again and deciding on what she wants to take. She's got lots of years of being responsible ahead of her and having to "suck it up" when she's got bills to pay, so for now while I've got the opportunity, I will support her mental health over money.

I’m sure you know this, but by supporting her in this way you are also teaching her some of the most important life lessons— to know her worth and how to advocate for herself. Well done! 🙂

Your post actually made me cry. Your daughter is lucky to have you. ❤️

[Bootsie]

17 minutes ago, TechWife said:

This.
Millions of women have left the workforce since the pandemic began. 

“As the pandemic erupted in the spring of 2020, roughly 3.5 million mothers with school-age children either lost jobs, took leaves of absence or left the labor market altogether, according to an analysis by the Census Bureau.”

https://apnews.com/article/075d3b0ab89baffc5e2b9a80e11dcf34

But, male labor force participation has dropped more than female labor force participation   Female labor force participation is about 99 percent of what it was in 2018; male labor force participation is only about 98 percent of its 2018 level.

 

[TechWife]

49 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Unpaid caregivers would not show up as part of the labor force or employment statistics.  But, surveys are done regarding why people are NOT working.  So, if the decrease is labor force participation was being greatly impacted by people not working because they had depended upon a grandparent providing childcare and that grandparent died from COVID, that reason would be  You would also have to factor in the number of peope in recent years who have said they are not participating in the labor force because they are taking care of an elderly relative to understand how COVID deaths of older relatives has impacted labor force participation of the sandwich generation.

I can’t imagine a survey getting an accurate count of reasons why people aren’t working. Teasing out childcare issues is very detailed work. is anyone funding that? I can think of several reasons someone would list “childcare” as a reason but there are many ways that reasoning can play out. Sometimes common sense and anecdotal evidence is enough to draw a conclusion, especially in local areas. 
 

I think the sandwich generation does play a role in it as well. People have real limits. 

[Bootsie]

38 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

So . . you'e saying that childcare issues in general are NOT showing up in the data as a reason for people leaving the work force? Or are you saying that the data is specific enough that it's showing minute details of the childcare issues, like (lack of) affordable care versus no longer having access to a grandparent or other family caregiver? My understanding--which I admit could be wrong due to both not following it closely and not having any expertise--was that issues surrounding childcare were a well accepted reason for people leaving the workforce? I'm not understanding if (or how) the data drills down on the nitty gritty details of that?

The SIPP database by the Census Bureau collects data on childcare arrangements and gives an idea of how many children are being cared for by grandparents and other relatives.  I don't know of anhy survey that is asking the question "have you left the workforce because a family member who provided child care for you died from COVID?"  But, information from these different surveys are put together for deduction.  

Yes, childcare has been an issue for people during COVID.  Much of that seems to be surrounding the need for more supervision of school aged children who are doing schooling from home.