Who should take community college courses in high school? (public school students)

[SKL]

My kids' school offers some college courses on the high school campus during the school day.  These include college English 1 & 2.

I asked about testing for the on-campus college courses, but they said the only requirement is a 3.0 high school GPA.

My kids have done honors English in 9th & 10th.  At the moment, they are both getting As in these courses, and their GPAs are well above 3.0.  The usual next step is AP English 11, but I wasn't going to push AP, at least not for my eldest.  My kids would not fail, but they aren't huge fans of doing extra work that most of the class isn't doing.  And the emphasis on test prep means that if you're a sucky test taker, all that work might be for nothing.  On the other hand, moving from honors 10 to general 11 might mean not learning much in 11th.

But if they can do college English 1 (community college standard) in 11th, that could be useful and hopefully not a step down from honors 10.  I'm not sure how much work it would be, or how much would be assumed as far as prior knowledge.  I don't think my kids have learned as much English grammar as they should.  I think they could get credit, but they might not get As without a ton of work.

(As far as my kids' abilities - one of them is intellectually above-average, but she dislikes writing and isn't the best communicator.  My other kid has average intelligence, but she's a pretty good communicator and a diligent student.  Despite different abilities, they tend to get similar grades in school.)

So ... should they sign up for the college English course??

Edited November 17, 2021 by SKL

[regentrude]

No general answer is possible because the content of a "College English" course is not standardized.
Many college composition 1 courses focus on basic language mechanics, spelling remediation and are a complete waste of time for a student who knows what constitutes a complete sentence and who can structure a simple essay.
OTOH, it could be a fantastic course with interesting literature.

The benefit of even a mickey mouse course would be transferability and checking a box for students who just want a cheap transfer credit in a gen ed. But for a literature interested student, a low level comp 1 can be a pain.
Some courses also contain a ton of busywork, which isn't what I would recommend for a student who does not want to put in extra work as you say above.

So to summarize: research the specific course at the specific institution , possibly with the specific teacher.

Edited November 17, 2021 by regentrude

[gardenmom5]

Kids who are ready to be successful at that level.  College grades follow a student, and will affect their college GPA.  If they're taking honors courses, and doing very well - they're ready.

Otherwise - let them mature.

[Dmmetler]

My teen did a college English class each year from 8th-12th grade, starting with English Comp 1 and 2, which were required for more interesting classes, and then classes in literature and journalism. Thus far, the big benefit is that my kid, with a science/science education major, has NO required English classes in college, and can pick humanities classes to fulfill distribution requirements (at a school which doesn't give many credits for AP, IB, or DE, but does give placement). The same is true in other areas, too-for the most part, taking those lower level, gen ed, everyone takes them classes in high school means that even if you don't get credit, you have freedom to do what you want, essentially converting the entire liberal arts/General studies core into electives. 

 

I will say that college classes, done on campus or online, expect college level executive functioning, where you meet at most 3 hours/week, and the rest of the work happens outside of class, and the assigned work is a subset of what is expected-you will almost certainly have to do some study and work outside of the actual graded assignments to keep up.  For some classes, this is much less-some online classes are entirely asynchronous or only meet once a week, so even more happens outside of class. That would be my big concern with this route vs AP-AP tends to have a LOT more handholding and spoon feeding. Having said that, doing community college (plus a few state flagship) classes in high school seems to have prepared my student better than many classmates, who came from highly rated high schools (mostly private and magnet schools)-who apparently are NOT used to classes without such handholding. 

 

 

[catz]

Both my high school students have in particular had a very good experience taking comp/english in a CC setting.  I will say we are lucky with the quality of our CC classes. Many CC teachers here also work in more highly rated college settings as well using similar curriculum, etc.  I think the difference is for students who need it, they do often have more fail safes.  I feel like the content was really good and took their academic writing to a solid collegiate level.  

I think being motivated to be successful is a big indicator for readiness.  These grades follow into college GPA in some cases.  In our experience you do need more self motivation.  I know a national merit scholar who missed an assignment in a DE class, didn't follow up and ended up with a D which definitely affected college admissions.  So a readiness to follow a syllabus, calendar, watch grades as they come out, etc are important.  I tried to "help" each of my kid's first semester taking CC classes just following the syllabus.  But both were ready.

ETA - one thing I would add is the reading and discussion material is often mature.  So readiness to have potential early exposure to that is important too.  

Edited November 17, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Arcadia]

DS16 did English 1 but at the community college itself. They allow all 11th and 12th graders while those not yet in 11th grade would need a LoR. He is not a good writer but the workload has been relatively light for him. The main incentive for him was that the classes would transfer to all our state universities. 
 

I would say read the rate my professor’s reviews if any. Read in particular for the classes taught in a high school campus. The same teacher might have different style of teaching and homework load for classes in the community college campus and for the high school campus. 

[Beth S]

Our kids did quite a bit of dual enrollment in high school.

Some caveats specifically about English 101 and 102: 
     Each university in our region has different ENG requirements. 
     One *required* Honors English 105, no matter what dual enrollment the student took in high school.
     Our kids were able to CLEP out of English 101, then took in class English 102 (which included a large research paper).
     Our community college didn't give credit for CLEPs, only allowed them to satisfy pre-requisites.
     Most "Special" English 104 or 105 classes don't readily transfer to another university.
     But since English 101 & 102 are required for just about any college major/program, it's a great place to start.

It's helpful to get personal recommendations on the various professors.
     Our kids took online Intro to Psych, World Religions, Government, and other easy college gen eds during high school.
     It enabled them to have lighter schedules as a Freshman & Sophomore, and also feel a bit more confident going into college.
     Our dd took all the (extensive) pre-requisites for the 2 year (ADN) nursing program, and was able to complete the program in 2 years.

Also agreeing that the college courses taught on the high school campus do tend to be easier, but the schedule is Do-Able!
     Another option is online, if the student is self-motivated.

And the student needs to be committed to getting an A (or a B), as you don't want to start out with a low College GPA.

I'm guessing there are previous posts on the High school board, which can give you LOTS more advice.

 
 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Beth S

[Pawz4me]

DS23 attended an early college high school and completed his AS degree while concurrently getting his high school diploma. It was an awesome fit and experience for him. He's gifted and on the spectrum, very academically inclined, and at that time had very little tolerance for the average kid his own age. The CC environment was just enough for him w/o being overwhelming. His English 101 class (which he took as a 14 yo) was probably in hindsight his favorite class, although at the time he was a bit shell shocked at the rigor and the instructor's (very high, IMO) expectations. She's now one of his FB friends. But as the others have said, it can be a risky thing. Those grades do follow a student. You want to weigh their academic ability, maturity and general "want to-ness" about it. Is it really what they want to do?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Lecka]

My feeling is it’s a good choice, locally, for students who are “over” high school and have zero interest/motivation for high school, and would like to do the DE option.

Locally that’s my opinion.  
 

I think some students are drawn to this option.  
 

For others it’s a sensible choice because they are motivated by the credits.  
 

 

[Forget-Me-Not]

My college-age kid did dual enrollment all 3 1/2 yrs of high school (yes he also graduated early).  Typically one college semester is equivalent to a year long high school course. He took a very basic grammar/comp class, then a more advanced comp class that required a couple of big research papers, and then a persuasive writing class where he had to argue one or both sides of a couple of different issues.  I always felt the work load was solidly appropriate for his level.  Honestly, CC is becoming the new high school for a lot of kids and the professors know and expect it. 
 

A couple of things to keep in mind:

In our last state (CA), the college professors *could not* talk to parents of their students, even if they were minors. So if my son needed help, needed to argue a grade, get assignment clarification, etc he had to handle it completely on his own. This does not seem to be the case in our current state, as I get weekly email updates from my daughter’s dual-enrollment class professors. I still encourage her to handle her own stuff because this is a good space to learn some of those communication skills and responsibilities. 
 

If they are attending on campus, they will be associating with adult students. The local university here offers some college classes for high schoolers only, which is a nice option, but even then they’ll be in campus spaces that are not high school-only, like the library, the math lab, etc.

These grades will go on their college transcript and follow them everywhere. 

Research the professors at Rate My Professor and talk to other parents. As with anything, some instructors are much better than others and even if they have to take a class from tough instructor, they can go in with some knowledge about what the expectations will be. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Forget-Me-Not

[Farrar]

I would probably not, but it depends on the goals.

I like dual enrollment for high schoolers, but you're describing a course that is one of the least likely to get credit in college - a course on the high school campus (not a college one), that takes the place of a high school course for high school requirements. That's exactly the sort of courses that more and more colleges are wary of giving credit for.

In terms of content, the traditional high school English sequence is usually preferred by colleges. Any decently taught English course will improve a student's ability, even if the goals remain the same as previous years. It's not like you cover persuasive essays in a particular grade and then you've mastered it and move on forever. There are paid professional writers still improving their craft. In English, I'm a strong believer that the teacher improves student learner more than the syllabus per se. 

In terms of college acceptances, the AP course will look better even if they don't take the AP exam at all. Of course, if the goal is credit, then you need the AP exam and that can also help a student look good for colleges. But the AP credit will be much more accepted at more schools overall.

Of course, if you know your kid is almost certainly headed for a particular state school, you can make decisions based on their specific policies about credits. And if it's a state school that's not very competitive, then you may not need to consider a more rigorous path just to show off. You can just focus on the best path for your kid instead.

[Storygirl]

I will need to decide this fairly soon for DS16, who is an honors student. (My other three are/were not honors students). I'm not sure what we will decide for him. We've been pleased so far with the classes he's taken in high school, and I don't have any desire to rush him into college courses. I would guess that if he takes any, it will be senior year, not junior year.

When DD19 was in high school, I specifically did not want her to take college courses, because the high school courses were the right level for her, as an average student (she got A's in regular high school English courses). Her writing was not top notch, in my opinion, and she lacked an ability to do in-depth literary analysis, so I did not think that early college was the right choice for her. I stand by that decision, and she has gotten A's in her college English and communication classes now that she is at university.

My other opinion is that I'd rather have a high schooler in a high school English class that covers both writing and literature in an integrated way, instead of taking a college composition class, which is what most high schoolers in our area do. I value the literature component of high school English and don't want my kids to miss out on that and just take composition.

[Terabith]

When my oldest dropped out of high school in tenth grade, they took College Composition 1 and 2 at the community college spring and summer semesters of their tenth grade year.  Their professor was FABULOUS, and they are the English classes that kid learned the most in by far ever.  

I wish I had the option for my current tenth grader to duplicate that experience, with the same professor.  I am very frustrated that the choices at the high school are AP English (and History) or Regular English/ History.  I would feel okay about that kid in an honors or college prep class, but she struggles with lots of writing, is not a strong writer, and does not like loads of work.  They are likely to go to community college and transfer later, so we aren't worried about how courses look to colleges.  They have significant learning issues, and while they have an A in pre-AP 10th grade English, there is no way this kid would pass the AP tests.  I'm very pissed off that my choices are AP or the class with drug deals and fist fights.  

[BusyMom5]

What are your kids goals?  I'd start there.  If it fits well in the plan, transfers, then I'd go with DE over AP.

Oldest did English 1 in 11th, a business English class in 12th, and the regular English 2 the summer before college- all were either on campus or online (due to Covid).  They were not done in a high school, they were regular college courses. At several colleges the business English counted as English 2, but at the one she ended up at, it's just a general elective.  She preferred to finish English (a subject she doesn't like) before going to the bigger University.  It opens up space in her schedule, she'll need to take only 1 300-level writing course in her degree area.

Kiddo 2 is in 11th, and English 1 is the perfect class to start DE this spring.  I think she's ready, and she feels confident that she can do it.  Still trying to figure out if it will be online or on campus.

[teachermom2834]

In our experience, Comp 1 and 2 through de were most useful as transfer credit and box checking. It allowed my dc to skip those classes when they got to their actual college destinations. While those classes are not usually difficult, exactly, for strong college students, they can be time consuming and annoying. A typical Comp 1 class at a university might require attending writing lab hours, useless and frequent peer review, attending tours of how to use the library or sessions on database research. If your student doesn’t need those things, transferring those credits in can be really nice. Those courses are also prereqs for humanities classes at our local university so it is just nice to get them behind you.

As far as actual learning I would choose a well designed appropriate high school class over de. Whether it is called AP or honors  I would assume, without personal info about the situation, that it would be a better class to actually see growth. 
 

So it really depends on the goals. We don’t regret getting those out of the way through de (ours was at a four year private university) but it really was a case of checking those boxes- not a great learning experience. 
 

But every school and kid is different. I would take the specifics of the situation (teachers? Peers?) over the generalizations I have made. 

[Carrie12345]

As mentioned, quality will vary.

In 1999, I took cc EngI as a 22yo who had taken college prep Eng in high school. The college course was excruciatingly lame. 

My dd took cc EngI at 16. She had spent years avoiding most formal work, especially English. She was shocked at how basic the cc course was and got a B. Probably for failure to put in much effort.

In our area, $450 for a guaranteed in-state transfer credit was worth it. But she wasn’t planning any field that required intense writing. 

[Ailaena]

In our state, college-level classes that take place at the high school are often taught by high school faculty, are not eligible for transfer credit, and the prospective college student will have to test out of Comp 1/2 and will not receive actual credit for it.  

Most community colleges here specifically state that if the course is taught by a community college professor, the child is officially dual enrolled in that college, and tuition is paid to the community college then it will count towards credit at the CC.  This is because in some rural areas, the outreach campus shares with the high school.

From what I’ve heard, the classes taught at the high school vary wildly but tend towards less difficult than on-campus and much less involved than AP courses.  If you think they’re ready to bump up, but not quite to AP-level and you don’t care about actual college credit but want a competitive transcript, I say go for it!

[Starr]

18 hours ago, regentrude said:

No general answer is possible because the content of a "College English" course is not standardized.

This is what I've seen listening to my dc and the years of college students in and out of our house. Some of the classes, in the same university, were writing ten page papers, others short papers and more literature and on it went. Every college has it's own say in what is considered a transfer credit. Many of the home educated kids in our world took English 101 at the state college for credit. It was a good class for their learning and college apps.

[SKL]

Neither of my kids currently aspires to the kind of college experience where fancy writing or literature should be a factor.  One wants business and/or engineering, the other biology/zoology.  While I love literature, I think we can do car audiobooks during school breaks to fill that gap.

There is an info session coming up at the high school ... I need to get it on my calendar so I don't forget.  I will also try to research what the state colleges accept for credit.