CDC mask announcement (a new thread)

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

well, surely a study where every participant was asked to report all symptoms, that includes thousands of participants and a placebo group, is going to give us better information than the selectively reported experiences of a bunch of a people on a homeschool message board, though?

Depends on the level of compliance.

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

There is also the question of WHO was "reporting" these inflated numbers.  The doctors know the difference and it is clearly marked on their records.  Is it just that the media asked the wrong questions and ran with the first number they could dig up?  If the kids' charts were inaccurate there would be no way to dig through and find the real numbers, so accurate records must exist. The part of the article that bothered me is this: 

Scientific and media reports that inaccurately portray the risk of COVID-19 to children can do harm by alarming parents and providing justification for ongoing restrictions to in-person education and other programming

All I hear is that parents should worry and restrict less because their kids aren't in any real danger, but no consideration for the adult leaders of these classrooms and programs.  Maybe we can all finally relax more because of the vaccines, but this article is talking about case numbers from last year when we had no vaccine.  Also, data analysis takes TIME so it's always going to be better to take the numbers from the first journalist who raced to report them with a grain of salt.  It's also a good idea to err on the side of caution.  We also can't forget that we're likely facing a serious teaching crisis.  Everyone saw how quickly this nation turned on teachers.  It drove many to retire and likely deterred some young people from entering the field.  Add to that impending budget cuts that this recession will cause and it's not a great picture of the future.  

I was a bit long winded saying so, and I absolutely DO want accurate numbers all the time, but I don't want those numbers to be used in a way that increases our overall public health risk or creates an education crisis down the road because we're impatient now.

 

These studies aren’t addressing what was reported in the media. I believe the numbers reported refer to the numbers that hospitals report to their states and the HHS, reflected in all those charts we’ve all seen that have graphs and numbers for  Covid hospitalizations.  Unless the hospitals separate those out into individual groups, the data just gets reported as “Covid hospitalizations,” is my understanding. The media and others then use those compiled numbers for reporting and other studies, so yes, individual doctors are aware of the situation for individual patients, but that doesn’t help anyone else to know what is really happening when we only see these hospitalization numbers.

I think it’s pretty important to figure out, because if a lot of hospital systems count the same way and continue to test everyone who comes into the hospital, how can we know what the real level of severity of illness is in our own areas?

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't have more than 2 days of big side effects, either. I just had more than 2 days of annoying side effects. 

In my current poll, there's a minority but a sizable minority of people with 2+ days of annoying side effects. There are very few people who report long-term side effects that get in their way, but plenty of people who report side-effects other than simply injection site soreness. 

It's a reactogenic vaccine. There's nothing wrong with that. 

I know several people (30’s-50’s) who had fevers and felt bad for 2-3 days.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Penelope

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Penelope said:

I know several people (30’s-50’s) who had fevers and felt bad for 2-3 days.

Yes, there’s a sizable minority of people with 2+ days of symptoms on my poll.

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Depends on the level of compliance.

you think a larger percentage of people on this board are reporting symptoms than in the CDC study?

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Bill, I got the Shingrix vaccine (both doses) before I got the Covid vaccine.  On purpose so that the timing wouldn't interfere with the Covid vaccine once I became eligible.   I had a bigger reaction to the Shingrix vaccine than the Covid ones for sure, but it still wasn't too bad..  Four days of arm pain and muscle pain.  The muscle pain wasn't as bad as what I get regularly with fibromyalgia so it was easier for me to brush off, however. 

I'm wondering if age plays into perceived vaccine reactions quite a lot. When you're older and your normal--even with just normal aging carp--is some degree of joint stiffness, muscle aches, lack of energy, etc., and then you factor in that many of us over 50 people have one or more chronic conditions that can cause pain, fatigue, etc.--it's much more challenging to figure out what might be a vaccine reaction and what might be just an on-my-lower-end-of-normal kind of day. I think it definitely makes it easier to shrug off minor things. I know in the last few years I've told doctors more than once that I simply don't know what normal is supposed to be anymore.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

you think a larger percentage of people on this board are reporting symptoms than in the CDC study?

I’m not sure. There are definitely people reporting more a week’s worth of symptoms. So I’d want that data.  
 

I’d also want to see how the diary data gathering worked. 

[whitestavern]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Other than you and your husband--whose experiences I don't discount and you have my sympathies--I have literally heard of no one in my circle who has experienced more than a sore arm and a day of feeling bad after the second shot of Pfizer or Moderna.

And shots, availability, and reactions have been a hot topic of conversation in recent months.

Sorry to know you two are exceptions.

Bill

 

Here are the stories I've heard from friends/family who have been vaccinated:

1. Mother - tired and a sore arm

2. Brother and SIL - pain in arm

3. Friend - went jogging and passed out a week after J&J vaccine. They originally thought it was a stroke, but never found anything wrong. Thankfully he's fine, but has a $40,000 hospital bill for his three days there.

4. In-law - had stroke a week after second dose. Not sure which manufacturer. I have not heard how he is doing now.

5. Childhood friend - mid-50s, hospitalized for three days after second shot of Pfizer, was seeing black spots and experiencing dizziness, has lost 30 pounds. Vision has improved but not feeling himself yet.

6. Our electrician - similar to above, hospitalized for two days 3 days after second Moderna shot with vision issues and kidney problems (no prior issues). Have not followed up to see how he is.

7. Friend - had fever, congestion, cough, aches (plus headache), nausea/vomiting, fatigue, and her arm was red and swollen. Lasted about 10 days. Is fine now. Do not remember which shot she got. 

Some of those could be coincidentally timed to the shot, but we just don't know for sure. 

ETA, I forgot my own 21 yo daughter, lol. She had a very sore arm, fever, chills, and an earache so bad she cried all night. The next day she felt mostly better except since then, her ear is still messed up. It's either clogged or ringing, or both. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by whitestavern

[whitestavern]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

This came out yesterday, about how hospitalized children were over counted.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/05/study-number-of-kids-hospitalized-for-covid-is-overcounted.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

The reported number of COVID-19 hospitalizations, one of the primary metrics for tracking the severity of the coronavirus pandemic, was grossly inflated for children in California hospitals, two research papers published Wednesday concluded. The papers, both published in the journal Hospital Pediatrics, found that pediatric hospitalizations for COVID-19 were overcounted by at least 40 percent, carrying potential implications for nationwide figures.

Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-diseases specialist at the University of California, San Francisco, and Amy Beck, an associate professor of pediatrics, also at UCSF, wrote a commentary for Hospital Pediatrics that accompanied the two studies. They wrote, “Taken together, these studies underscore the importance of clearly distinguishing between children hospitalized with SARS-CoV-2 found on universal testing versus those hospitalized for COVID-19 disease.” The studies demonstrate, they said, that reported hospitalization rates “greatly overestimate the true burden of COVID-19 disease in children.” Gandhi told Intelligencer that while the studies were both conducted with data from California hospitals, “there is no reason to think these findings would be exclusive to California. This sort of retrospective chart review will likely reveal the same findings across the country.” 

It's certainly possible this also happened with adults. 

[whitestavern]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

One fun fact from that link is that 47.4% of vaccine recipients studied reported fatigue after pfizer....as did 33.4% of people who got the placebo. Hmm... Maybe a lot of people could just really use more sleep. Headache was similar: 41.9% who got the vaccine vs. 33.7% placebo.

I read somewhere (months back) that some of the nonactive ingredients in the vaccine are in the placebo as well. Anyone know if that is accurate? Maybe it was one of those ingredients that caused those particular side effects. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I read somewhere (months back) that some of the nonactive ingredients in the vaccine are in the placebo as well. Anyone know if that is accurate? Maybe it was one of those ingredients that caused those particular side effects. 

That seems pretty unlikely, although I'd be curious if anyone knows what they used as placebo. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Plum said:

This vaccine has now been exposed to all sorts of demographics that weren’t a part of the trial. People that had covid, people with autoimmune issues, teens, etc. That’s why the real world HCW data was so compelling. 

Also, you can simply see more patterns with more people. Like, I'm 100% convinced that this vaccine is triggering herpes viruses to resurface. I've heard this way more times than I would expect randomly without confirmation bias. 

Did they record that? No. But then they weren't looking for it, either. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

Yep. Shingles in people under 50 after vaccine? I’d like to see those numbers. 

Yep. I'd like those, and I'd like the cold sore numbers, too. And mind you, I expect that effect to be relatively rare... but I'd expect it to be statistically significant. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I read somewhere (months back) that some of the nonactive ingredients in the vaccine are in the placebo as well. Anyone know if that is accurate? Maybe it was one of those ingredients that caused those particular side effects. 

I couldn't find anything specifically about covid, but I found this from 2010 that says that placebo ingredients can be a concern: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-whats-placebo/so-whats-in-a-placebo-anyway-idUSTRE69H51L20101018

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm 100% convinced that this vaccine is triggering herpes viruses to resurface. I've heard this way more times than I would expect randomly without confirmation bias. 

Wouldn't one *expect* herpes to be triggered with any stress on the body or immune system? How is that a surprise?

I got shingles after a breakup. Lots of folks get cold sores when they are stressed... or just menstruating. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by regentrude

[kokotg]

12 minutes ago, Plum said:

They didn’t test the vaccine on people with long covid. It was a complete happy surprise that 30% had their LC symptoms go away. It’s entirely possible it could have exacerbated their symptoms, which in our extremely rare case, looks like what happened. 
 

This vaccine has now been exposed to all sorts of demographics that weren’t a part of the trial. People that had covid, people with autoimmune issues, teens, etc. That’s why the real world HCW data was so compelling. 

That's a good point. The ability to have a placebo group in the trials is really valuable when you're looking at reactions (and efficacy of course), but the controlled nature of the trials does of course affect things. 

[1234]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Wouldn't one *expect* herpes to be triggered with any stress on the body or immune system? How is that a surprise?

I got shingles after a breakup. Lots of folks get cold sores when they are stressed... or just menstruating. 

Yes. Ds had herpes on his face when he was little and that one spot will come back even now years later when he is stressed but neither Pfizer shot has brought it on. I had read here about it so made sure he had meds just in case but he’s been fine.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

 

That’s absolutely true. A lot of people are walking around with unknown arthritis and various underlying conditions that get aggravated by inflammation or something from the vaccine. Was it caused by the vaccine or did the vaccine expose it? 

The American College of Rheumatology says that it's entirely possible that the vaccine could trigger a flare in people who have RA, lupus, Sjogren's, PSA and other types of inflammatory arthritis. But anecdotally, based on what I'm reading on the various support boards I'm on, if it is triggering flares it must be in a very small number of people. 'Cause people aren't posting about it.

But . . .

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Wouldn't one *expect* herpes to be triggered with any stress on the body or immune system? How is that a surprise?

I got shingles after a breakup. Lots of folks get cold sores when they are stressed... or just menstruating. 

^^This.^^ Stress is a well known trigger for autoimmune inflammatory rheumatological conditions. That can be any type of stress, but particularly emotional stress. I am 1000 percent positive that the trigger for my RA was the stress of DH's cancer diagnosis. And it seems that lots of people are having stress reactions just from thinking about getting the vaccine. So to the extent that something was triggered -- was it the vaccine itself or the (probably unnecessary) stress the person was subjecting themselves to thinking about getting vaccinated? I'm guessing that would be hard to sort out.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Wheres Toto]

4 hours ago, kokotg said:

One fun fact from that link is that 47.4% of vaccine recipients studied reported fatigue after pfizer....as did 33.4% of people who got the placebo. Hmm... Maybe a lot of people could just really use more sleep. Headache was similar: 41.9% who got the vaccine vs. 33.7% placebo.

This really is what I'm wondering though.   I was tired for a few days after my shot, but I also have hormonal fluctuations that make me tired.  I had a headache, but I get headaches from weather and foods sometimes.   And so on.

I definitely had symptoms I could blame on the vaccine, but there was nothing that I haven't had at any other time for other reasons.   Should I just conclude it was the vaccine because of the timing?  Given the time of year (allergies, weather), it's not that unlikely that at least the headaches were due to other things.   And I didn't keep very good track of how late I stayed up reading, or if there were other signs of hormonal fluctuations at that time or what other things could have caused issues.  I didn't have any fever that I know of (didn't check but didn't feel like it), didn't miss any work, in fact taught three classes a day for the next five days after my 2nd shot. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yep. I'd like those, and I'd like the cold sore numbers, too. And mind you, I expect that effect to be relatively rare... but I'd expect it to be statistically significant. 

I would actually be surprised NOT to see this. I see others have already said it, but I would expect a cold sore flare to be more likely in someone who just had a vaccine, or who is even stressed about having a vaccine.

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

This really is what I'm wondering though.   I was tired for a few days after my shot, but I also have hormonal fluctuations that make me tired.  I had a headache, but I get headaches from weather and foods sometimes.   And so on.

I definitely had symptoms I could blame on the vaccine, but there was nothing that I haven't had at any other time for other reasons.   Should I just conclude it was the vaccine because of the timing?  Given the time of year (allergies, weather), it's not that unlikely that at least the headaches were due to other things.   And I didn't keep very good track of how late I stayed up reading, or if there were other signs of hormonal fluctuations at that time or what other things could have caused issues.  I didn't have any fever that I know of (didn't check but didn't feel like it), didn't miss any work, in fact taught three classes a day for the next five days after my 2nd shot. 

Yeah, that's why the CDC information that includes the placebo group is so interesting to me...a lot of the common side effects are pretty general. It also tracks pretty well with the range and frequency of side effects in my family and people I know. 

[Not_a_Number]

14 minutes ago, KSera said:

I would actually be surprised NOT to see this. I see others have already said it, but I would expect a cold sore flare to be more likely in someone who just had a vaccine, or who is even stressed about having a vaccine.

I don't think it was about stress for me -- I wasn't actually stressed for the first shot, and that's the one that I got the cold sore on. Definitely a physical reaction. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Wouldn't one *expect* herpes to be triggered with any stress on the body or immune system? How is that a surprise?

I got shingles after a breakup. Lots of folks get cold sores when they are stressed... or just menstruating. 

Yep. It's not a surprise at all. That's why it's the rare thing I'm 100% sure about 😛 . 

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

This really is what I'm wondering though.   I was tired for a few days after my shot, but I also have hormonal fluctuations that make me tired.  I had a headache, but I get headaches from weather and foods sometimes.   And so on.

I definitely had symptoms I could blame on the vaccine, but there was nothing that I haven't had at any other time for other reasons.   Should I just conclude it was the vaccine because of the timing?  Given the time of year (allergies, weather), it's not that unlikely that at least the headaches were due to other things.   And I didn't keep very good track of how late I stayed up reading, or if there were other signs of hormonal fluctuations at that time or what other things could have caused issues.  I didn't have any fever that I know of (didn't check but didn't feel like it), didn't miss any work, in fact taught three classes a day for the next five days after my 2nd shot. 

I definitely think placebo-controlled studies are required to disentangle everything -- as you say, it's easy to assume everything that happens AFTER a vaccine is BECAUSE of the vaccine. Reminds me of this excellent comic: 

https://xkcd.com/552/

On the other hand, I place a lot of value on case studies, which is what I think of the forum anecdata. Plus, I actually find the polls informative, because people aren't self-selecting: it's just the folks on this site. Now, you could argue the folks on this site are NOT random, and you'd be absolutely right... but I still trust it a lot more than sites where people gather explicitly for the purpose of discussing symptoms. 

For me, personally, the headache I got after the vaccine wasn't anything like my usual headaches. The muscle aches, on the other hand, I wouldn't have known what to do with, since I had been sore from running around from before the vaccine. But given that lots of people had muscle aches, I tend to assume they were related to the vaccine.

I also think that forum data tends to allow one to find patterns, which is both good and bad. On the one hand, it's easy to overmatch and assume that "because lots of people had headaches, and I had a headache after the vaccine, it MUST be because of the vaccine." On the other hand, I heard enough people describe the exact same stupid headache starting at the back of the neck that it was much clearer that this headache must be vaccine-related. 

Do you see what I'm saying? I do think the trial data is very useful for disentangling causation. But for me personally, hearing other people's experiences made it clearer what was causal and what was not. I imagine I'm not alone in that. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm wondering if age plays into perceived vaccine reactions quite a lot. When you're older and your normal--even with just normal aging carp--is some degree of joint stiffness, muscle aches, lack of energy, etc., and then you factor in that many of us over 50 people have one or more chronic conditions that can cause pain, fatigue, etc.--it's much more challenging to figure out what might be a vaccine reaction and what might be just an on-my-lower-end-of-normal kind of day. I think it definitely makes it easier to shrug off minor things. I know in the last few years I've told doctors more than once that I simply don't know what normal is supposed to be anymore.

I agree with what you are saying here.   I have to confess that after 30 years of daily chronic pain I do roll my eyes at a few days or even weeks of symptoms which don’t even merit a doctor visit. I know. Not nice of me. But there are degrees of impact and whining sets my teeth on edge. 
 

btw it just so happens that I got my weekly v-safe check in message. One question is whether  I had any “new symptoms or medical conditions “ since my last check in.   I figure that would cast a very wide net for all kinds of side effects. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But there are degrees of impact and whining sets my teeth on edge. 

I hope you don't think I'm whining 🙂 . I am VERY glad to be vaccinated. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

The American College of Rheumatology says that it's entirely possible that the vaccine could trigger a flare in people who have RA, lupus, Sjogren's, PSA and other types of inflammatory arthritis. But anecdotally, based on what I'm reading on the various support boards I'm on, if it is triggering flares it must be in a very small number of people. 'Cause people aren't posting about it.

But . . .

^^This.^^ Stress is a well known trigger for autoimmune inflammatory rheumatological conditions. That can be any type of stress, but particularly emotional stress. I am 1000 percent positive that the trigger for my RA was the stress of DH's cancer diagnosis. And it seems that lots of people are having stress reactions just from thinking about getting the vaccine. So to the extent that something was triggered -- was it the vaccine itself or the (probably unnecessary) stress the person was subjecting themselves to thinking about getting vaccinated? I'm guessing that would be hard to sort out.

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

I think if an activated immune system causes a side effect, that's definitely a vaccine side effect. You can think it's worth it, but it's still a real thing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

Ps- on the advice of people here on this board I still reported it on v-safe. 

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, KSera said:

Right. I’m also wondering how the people who deny any benefit from masks explain the almost non existent flu season this year. 

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

5 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

The shingles vaccine is on my 50th birthday to-do list (or shortly thereafter). I had shingles in high school, and it was bad enough. I know it's worse the older you are when you have it.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Yeah, that's why the CDC information that includes the placebo group is so interesting to me...a lot of the common side effects are pretty general. It also tracks pretty well with the range and frequency of side effects in my family and people I know. 

I see the same issue with a lot of the long Covid data and reporting. There are all these symptoms, but no control. 
 

And simple lists of symptoms with percentages don’t get at the quality of the symptoms. I think they do list severity, and the severity of the symptoms was greater with Pfizer than placebo, not just the number of people who had them.

Fatigue when your body is physiologically stressed, from an illness or a vaccine like these, doesn't necessarily feel the same as being a little tired or low energy. But both people would check off the “fatigue” box.

And the charts don’t get at things like this:

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

On the other hand, I heard enough people describe the exact same stupid headache starting at the back of the neck that it was much clearer that this headache must be vaccine-related. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

I actually wondered if that would happen, because I thought a lot of people would be doing drive-up Covid testing for symptoms instead of getting a flu test at the doctor like they normally would. But I guess there was still plenty of flu testing being done, and there is no hiding the lack of people in the hospital for flu.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

It's one of the conspiracy theories. Even people not explicitly into conspiracies are passing this one along. 

[kbutton]

46 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I actually wondered if that would happen, because I thought a lot of people would be doing drive-up Covid testing for symptoms instead of getting a flu test at the doctor like they normally would. But I guess there was still plenty of flu testing being done, and there is no hiding the lack of people in the hospital for flu.

Early on when testing was scarce, there were definitely Covid cases being missed because someone tested positive for flu. Experts were proclaiming that you couldn't really have both, and since testing was scarce, you got a Covid test only if your flu test was negative. My DH works in healthcare and was appalled they would say so. Multiple infections with multiple diseases is pretty much always a possible scenario, if atypical. Many people are prone to strep with any illness they get, for instance, and some people get multiple flu strains at once. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

13 minutes ago, Plum said:

Okay, the ingredients may not have caused it but the result was triggered from increased stress, from the vaccine, no? 
Plus, you know what a flare looks and feels like. Imagine having no history or warning signs or even symptoms that are obvious that it’s a flare. People with long covid or previous covid could have unknown nerve damage as we know it gets into the CNS. It may be stress related but it was also vaccine related, and in some cases, covid related.

I get what you’re saying but it could have been triggered by lack of sleep, stress from daily life during a pandemic, gremlins...  (Joking about the gremlins, of course, but sometimes flares seem so random!). 

[ScoutTN]

7 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

I had a majorly sore arm, hot to the touch, for three days with both shingles vax shots. SO worth it! 

[HeartString]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

Just to nerd out a bit, one of the doctors I follow was talking about a theory that basically says COVID in the body blocks the way for flu, like COVID is filling the receptors in your nose so flu can’t get.  You could have a flu virus try but there’s no place for it to get so it just dies.  That was his idea for why we had so little flu, in addition to the cleaning and masks.  And kids not being in school, since kids are usually vectors.  
 

https://zdoggmd.com/viral-interference/

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by HeartString

[wathe]

10 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I read somewhere (months back) that some of the nonactive ingredients in the vaccine are in the placebo as well. Anyone know if that is accurate? Maybe it was one of those ingredients that caused those particular side effects. 

 

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That seems pretty unlikely, although I'd be curious if anyone knows what they used as placebo. 

The placebo used in the Pfizer trial was saline:

"Trial Procedure

With the use of an interactive Web-based system, participants in the trial were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive 30 μg of BNT162b2 (0.3 ml volume per dose) or saline placebo."

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by wathe

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Plum said:

Okay, the ingredients may not have caused it but the result was triggered from increased stress, from the vaccine, no? 
Plus, you know what a flare looks and feels like. Imagine having no history or warning signs or even symptoms that are obvious that it’s a flare. People with long covid or previous covid could have unknown nerve damage as we know it gets into the CNS. It may be stress related but it was also vaccine related, and in some cases, covid related.

No. Not necessarily at all. I think this is your bias coming through, wanting to pin any flare on the vaccine. Those of us who live with AI illnesses and other illness that flare occasionally know it doesn't work like that. I suspect that few of us live such simple lives that we could accurately, unequivocally say that a vaccine caused a flare or not. I know I would have to consciously attempt to live a perfect life for several days before and after to be able to even have a small chance of determining that. A "perfect life" would mean enough activity but not too much, nothing at all that caused any of my muscles or joints to tense up in the least, enough sleep, no stress at all, etc.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I got my first vaccine and had an RA flare afterwards. Now maybe it was the vaccine. But after the appointment I had to drive home in a pounding rain. Really heavy stuff, to the point that multiple times I considered pulling over somewhere and waiting it out. But I chose to drive on. I was tense. Hands clenched on the wheel, overall body tension. If I had flared afterwards I'd have no way of knowing whether it was from the vaccine or from being so tense from driving in a torrential downpour. History tells me the latter can cause a small flare, but I have no experience with flares after vaccines (including very recent experience with the Shingrex vaccines). But OTOH the experts tell me the Covid vaccines can trigger flares. So . . how do I decide? I can't. I could choose one or the other, but it would be bias driving the choice. So I say I can't decide, I don't know which caused it. I'm not going to say it was the vaccine or it wasn't. Either way would just be guessing.

[Dmmetler]

46 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

No. Not necessarily at all. I think this is your bias coming through, wanting to pin any flare on the vaccine. Those of us who live with AI illnesses and other illness that flare occasionally know it doesn't work like that. I suspect that few of us live such simple lives that we could accurately, unequivocally say that a vaccine caused a flare or not. I know I would have to consciously attempt to live a perfect life for several days before and after to be able to even have a small chance of determining that. A "perfect life" would mean enough activity but not too much, nothing at all that caused any of my muscles or joints to tense up in the least, enough sleep, no stress at all, etc.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I got my first vaccine and had an RA flare afterwards. Now maybe it was the vaccine. But after the appointment I had to drive home in a pounding rain. Really heavy stuff, to the point that multiple times I considered pulling over somewhere and waiting it out. But I chose to drive on. I was tense. Hands clenched on the wheel, overall body tension. If I had flared afterwards I'd have no way of knowing whether it was from the vaccine or from being so tense from driving in a torrential downpour. History tells me the latter can cause a small flare, but I have no experience with flares after vaccines (including very recent experience with the Shingrex vaccines). But OTOH the experts tell me the Covid vaccines can trigger flares. So . . how do I decide? I can't. I could choose one or the other, but it would be bias driving the choice. So I say I can't decide, I don't know which caused it. I'm not going to say it was the vaccine or it wasn't. Either way would just be guessing.

I had the same sort of thing-hives for several days following the vaccine dose. But, I have hashimoto's, and I'm one of the lucky people who gets hives as a result when my immune system is upset at all. So, while I reported them to VaxSafe, mentally I'm considering that a side effect of Hashimoto's, not necessarily the vaccine. Because yeah, that's a logical reason for my immune system to be upset, but I'm getting the same symptoms now, and it's probably because we have L's grad party tomorrow!!

[Dmmetler]

6 hours ago, HeartString said:

Just to nerd out a bit, one of the doctors I follow was talking about a theory that basically says COVID in the body blocks the way for flu, like COVID is filling the receptors in your nose so flu can’t get.  You could have a flu virus try but there’s no place for it to get so it just dies.  That was his idea for why we had so little flu, in addition to the cleaning and masks.  And kids not being in school, since kids are usually vectors.  
 

https://zdoggmd.com/viral-interference/

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

[HeartString]

5 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

A Baby Yoda hand sanitizer carrier is my daughters most prized possession at the moment.  She has the cleanest hands right now. 

[Dmmetler]

11 minutes ago, HeartString said:

A Baby Yoda hand sanitizer carrier is my daughters most prized possession at the moment.  She has the cleanest hands right now. 

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

[kokotg]

7 hours ago, HeartString said:

 

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

So many kids were in school, though--I think it was 50% by winter. That would explain a big reduction in flu, but not it being almost non-existent. Most of the kids who were in school were wearing masks, though. I suspect people being more likely to stay home when they were sick this year had something to do with it, too. It would be interesting to see numbers on whether flu was more prevalent in areas where kids were in school and also to see if mask mandates (in schools, especially, but elsewhere, too) correlated with local flu numbers. 

[kokotg]

23 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

I think if we can stay/become a society where it's socially unacceptable to be in public places while sick (instead of stuff like perfect attendance and not taking sick days being valorized) and where it's expected to wear masks much more frequently, we can save a ton of lives and keep a ton of people out of the hospital every year. One thing I've learned this year is how rarely it actually is "just allergies" for me. ETA: of course a lot of the responsibility for it becoming socially unacceptable to be out when sick lies with employers and with policies around sick leave, not with individuals.

Edited May 21, 2021 by kokotg

[Danae]

11 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

The idea that soap and towels weren’t available in all schools prior to this is mind-boggling to me.  But you’re not the first person I’ve heard it from.

[whitestavern]

More reading on placebos:

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-vaccine-why-its-important-to-know-whats-in-the-placebo-146365

https://www.modernatx.com/cove-study

About the Placebo

In order to understand if the study vaccine is effective in preventing the COVID-19 illness or SARS-CoV-2 infection, researchers are comparing the study vaccine to a placebo. A placebo generally looks just like the study drug or study vaccine being tested but contains no active medication or vaccine. 

https://storage.googleapis.com/plos-corpus-prod/10.1371/journal.pmed.1003294/1/pmed.1003294.pdf?X-Goog-Algorithm=GOOG4-RSA-SHA256&X-Goog-Credential=wombat-sa%40plos-prod.iam.gserviceaccount.com%2F20210521%2Fauto%2Fstorage%2Fgoog4_request&X-Goog-Date=20210521T123718Z&X-Goog-Expires=86400&X-Goog-SignedHeaders=host&X-Goog-Signature=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

 

 

 

[Innisfree]

22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

I'm hoping for this, also, and continued masking during flu season as well.

There may be a holdover: I was a child during the 1970s energy crisis, and I still can't bear to leave a room without turning off the lights. Unfortunately I'm pretty certain society in general hasn't retained the same concerns, and sanitation may follow the same pattern, unless we reinforce the message every year.

Here's hoping Covid isn't enough of a concern next winter that we're still masking out of necessity, because of it. It could be, depending on how things go.

[Penelope]

In order for masks and sanitizing to be the cause of reduced flu, you’d have to have some flu around in the first place. It would be very hard to say that masks were the primary reason or even *a reason, as we also had distancing and hyperawareness of illness.

I think it wasn’t introduced very much due to lack of travel. It never broke out in the Southern Hemisphere last summer, either. And everyone there wasn’t masking everywhere. It could have been a fairly light flu year even without Covid, since we have those every so often. 
 

We’ll never know. And there is much that isn’t known about influenza. This just came out, showing that about half of flu infections are asymptomatic, and that asymptomatic infected people can transmit to others. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214109X21001418

[Penelope]

16 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I'm hoping for this, also, and continued masking during flu season as well.

I don’t. Only to the extent that someone who feels like they might be coming down with something, or thinks they might have flu, feels comfortable wearing a mask if they have to go out. 
 

I do not see us becoming a culture that masks every winter. 
Although if we did that this winter, and maybe some communities will, it would be a good test of masking, and maybe someone will study it. 
 

If they do work, I am not sure of the long term effects of preventing infection with mostly benign respiratory viruses in young, healthy people. Isn’t there a chance that would come back to bite us with inadequate immunity later on? 
 

What would be cool is if they reduced not infection, but viral load of an infection, so that we could develop some immunity without getting sick. 

[wathe]

@Not_a_Number, @whitestavern

It looks like the the Modena placebo was also saline (quote from the clinical study protocol:

 

"Investigational Product, Dosage, and Route of Administration:

The mRNA-1273 IP is an LNP dispersion of an mRNA encoding the prefusion stabilized S protein of SARS-CoV-2 formulated in LNPs composed of 4 lipids (1 proprietary and 3 commercially available): the proprietary ionizable lipid SM-102; cholesterol; 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3 phosphocholine (DSPC); and 1monomethoxypolyethyleneglycol-2,3-dimyristylglycerol with polyethylene glycol of average molecular weight 2000 (PEG2000-DMG). The mRNA-1273 is provided as a sterile liquid for injection and is a white to off-white dispersion in appearance, at a concentration of 0.2 mg/mL in 20 mM Tris buffer containing 87mg/mL sucrose and 10.7 mM sodium acetate at pH 7.5.

The placebo is 0.9% sodium chloride (normal saline) injection, which meets the criteria of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).