CDC mask announcement (a new thread)

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, pinball said:

This came out yesterday, about how hospitalized children were over counted.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/05/study-number-of-kids-hospitalized-for-covid-is-overcounted.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

The reported number of COVID-19 hospitalizations, one of the primary metrics for tracking the severity of the coronavirus pandemic, was grossly inflated for children in California hospitals, two research papers published Wednesday concluded. The papers, both published in the journal Hospital Pediatrics, found that pediatric hospitalizations for COVID-19 were overcounted by at least 40 percent, carrying potential implications for nationwide figures.

Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-diseases specialist at the University of California, San Francisco, and Amy Beck, an associate professor of pediatrics, also at UCSF, wrote a commentary for Hospital Pediatrics that accompanied the two studies. They wrote, “Taken together, these studies underscore the importance of clearly distinguishing between children hospitalized with SARS-CoV-2 found on universal testing versus those hospitalized for COVID-19 disease.” The studies demonstrate, they said, that reported hospitalization rates “greatly overestimate the true burden of COVID-19 disease in children.” Gandhi told Intelligencer that while the studies were both conducted with data from California hospitals, “there is no reason to think these findings would be exclusive to California. This sort of retrospective chart review will likely reveal the same findings across the country.” 

The article buried (and trivialized) the most import point of the story [emphasis added]:

To be certain, there are other effects of COVID-19 on children that are separate from hospitalization.

To be certain.

Bill

[Penelope]

49 minutes ago, SKL said:

Anyone know if similar was done with child death counts?  Or counts of serious "symptoms" that could also be symptoms of something else?

I don’t know, but there is this published by CDC that suggests it should be looked into.
35% of pediatric deaths with Covid on the death certificate did not also have what they termed a “plausible chain-of-event” diagnosis (like pneumonia) or another condition that is associated with Covid death risk. This doesn’t mean that it is certain that Covid was not associated with those deaths. 
 

I am sure there must be a few cases in which the cause of death wasn’t Covid, and because pediatric numbers are small, a few could make a difference. Is it a third? That is hard to believe, too, unless states really are counting everyone with a positive Covid test within a certain time period as a Covid death. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Penelope

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

I don’t know, but there is this published by CDC that suggests more looking into it is needed.
35% of pediatric deaths with Covid on the death certificate did not also have what they termed a “plausible chain-of-event” diagnosis or another condition that is associated with Covid death risk. This doesn’t mean that it is certain that Covid was not associated with those deaths. 
 

I am sure there must be a few cases in which the cause of death wasn’t Covid, and because pediatric numbers are small, a few could make a difference. Is it a third? That is hard to believe, too, unless states really are counting everyone with a positive Covid test within a certain time period as a Covid death. 

From what I've read in reliable sources, the official definition of a Covid death is a death "with Covid," or with presumed Covid.  I haven't heard any reliable information as to how many deaths "with Covid" are not "from Covid" in any age group.

Of course, in most age groups, death is rare from any cause, but if you're talking about a population with a non-miniscule death rate, such as children with potentially terminal cancer, then it might make a difference in the messaging.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

Other than you and your husband--whose experiences I don't discount and you have my sympathies--I have literally heard of no one in my circle who has experienced more than a sore arm and a day of feeling bad after the second shot of Pfizer or Moderna.

And shots, availability, and reactions have been a hot topic of conversation in recent months.

Sorry to know you two are exceptions.

Bill

I’m surprised by that, honestly. Both my data on this site and IRL has indicated that there’s sizable minority of people with 3+ days of side effects. 

I think pro-vaccine people tend to play down effects while anti-vaccine people play them up, if I had to guess what’s happening. Good dada is hard to get.

[Penelope]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

From what I've read in reliable sources, the official definition of a Covid death is a death "with Covid," or with presumed Covid.  I haven't heard any reliable information as to how many deaths "with Covid" are not "from Covid" in any age group.

Of course, in most age groups, death is rare from any cause, but if you're talking about a population with a non-miniscule death rate, such as children with potentially terminal cancer, then it might make a difference in the messaging.

Well, the study I linked, if I’m understanding it correctly, actually shows that nearly all of the adult Covid deaths DO have a record suggesting that the death could plausibly be from Covid. It’s the pediatric group (35%) and the 20 year olds (10%) that don’t find this. 
 

I am personally making no conclusions about adults or pediatrics from this or anything else. It’s going to take time, years, for everything to be carefully analyzed and for people who have full comprehension of all of the epidemiological literature to figure all of this out. 
 

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m surprised by that, honestly. Both my data on this site and IRL has indicated that there’s sizable minority of people with 3+ days of side effects. 

I think pro-vaccine people tend to play down effects while anti-vaccine people play them up, if I had to guess what’s happening. Good dada is hard to get.

Or our experience is just different than yours.  We don't know why some people have certain reactions to Covid and some don't.  We don't know why some people have certain reactions to the Covid vaccine and some don't.  Would those who had the extra reactions to the vaccine be the same people who reacted badly to Covid?  We don't know. 

My husband had a delayed reaction to his vaccine (Moderna) and his reactions were stronger than others I know (but nowhere near having to be hospitalized or even needing to contact a doctor).  But he's also very high risk for complications from the actual disease. 

[KungFuPanda]

44 minutes ago, KSera said:

Right. I’m also wondering how the people who deny any benefit from masks explain the almost non existent flu season this year. 

It's bazaar to know so many people with small children and not know anyone who has a a cold or the flu for an entire year. I'm feeling a bit spoiled by that luxury and I'll take this silver lining.

42 minutes ago, pinball said:

This came out yesterday, about how hospitalized children were over counted.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/05/study-number-of-kids-hospitalized-for-covid-is-overcounted.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

The reported number of COVID-19 hospitalizations, one of the primary metrics for tracking the severity of the coronavirus pandemic, was grossly inflated for children in California hospitals, two research papers published Wednesday concluded. The papers, both published in the journal Hospital Pediatrics, found that pediatric hospitalizations for COVID-19 were overcounted by at least 40 percent, carrying potential implications for nationwide figures.

Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-diseases specialist at the University of California, San Francisco, and Amy Beck, an associate professor of pediatrics, also at UCSF, wrote a commentary for Hospital Pediatrics that accompanied the two studies. They wrote, “Taken together, these studies underscore the importance of clearly distinguishing between children hospitalized with SARS-CoV-2 found on universal testing versus those hospitalized for COVID-19 disease.” The studies demonstrate, they said, that reported hospitalization rates “greatly overestimate the true burden of COVID-19 disease in children.” Gandhi told Intelligencer that while the studies were both conducted with data from California hospitals, “there is no reason to think these findings would be exclusive to California. This sort of retrospective chart review will likely reveal the same findings across the country.” 

I can see how they'd have to keep all children WITH Covid in the covid wards no matter why they were admitted and they'd be included in the count of "Number of Patients Admitted to the Pediatric Covid Ward" This seems like a data reading problem that can be easily corrected by re-sorting the columns.  I suspect a lot of those kids were walking around with covid and didn't even know they were potential spreaders until the hospital did routine covid testing.

There is also the question of WHO was "reporting" these inflated numbers.  The doctors know the difference and it is clearly marked on their records.  Is it just that the media asked the wrong questions and ran with the first number they could dig up?  If the kids' charts were inaccurate there would be no way to dig through and find the real numbers, so accurate records must exist. The part of the article that bothered me is this: 

Scientific and media reports that inaccurately portray the risk of COVID-19 to children can do harm by alarming parents and providing justification for ongoing restrictions to in-person education and other programming

All I hear is that parents should worry and restrict less because their kids aren't in any real danger, but no consideration for the adult leaders of these classrooms and programs.  Maybe we can all finally relax more because of the vaccines, but this article is talking about case numbers from last year when we had no vaccine.  Also, data analysis takes TIME so it's always going to be better to take the numbers from the first journalist who raced to report them with a grain of salt.  It's also a good idea to err on the side of caution.  We also can't forget that we're likely facing a serious teaching crisis.  Everyone saw how quickly this nation turned on teachers.  It drove many to retire and likely deterred some young people from entering the field.  Add to that impending budget cuts that this recession will cause and it's not a great picture of the future.  

I was a bit long winded saying so, and I absolutely DO want accurate numbers all the time, but I don't want those numbers to be used in a way that increases our overall public health risk or creates an education crisis down the road because we're impatient now.

 

[Spy Car]

23 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m surprised by that, honestly. Both my data on this site and IRL has indicated that there’s sizable minority of people with 3+ days of side effects. 

I think pro-vaccine people tend to play down effects while anti-vaccine people play them up, if I had to guess what’s happening. Good dada is hard to get.

No, that's not the case here. I have literally known of no one in my circle who has felt bad for more than a day. Almost always after the second shot. A few have only had sore arms, but they are the small minority. A crummy day after shot #2 is the dominant response, with a full return to normal by the next day. 

That's not some sort of confirmation bias, but the literal and objective truth of the situation as reported by people I know who have no reason to lie. And the topic has been widely discussed by those in my circle.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Or our experience is just different than yours.  We don't know why some people have certain reactions to Covid and some don't.  We don't know why some people have certain reactions to the Covid vaccine and some don't.  Would those who had the extra reactions to the vaccine be the same people who reacted badly to Covid?  We don't know. 

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

[Sk8ermaiden]

To the 55 and under question...

It seems to be 50/50 among those I know whether they were completely asymptomatic or extremely sick. I felt like I was on the verge of pneumonia for 6 full weeks. (I am 36) one other friend my age spent a week trying to decide whether to go to the hospital because she thought she was dying but doesn't have insurance, while our third friend's family got it and no one had anything worse than a cold. My 28 year old sister went out the day the bars opened🙄, got it there, and felt like she had an awful flu for almost a month. 

After a competition (that we KNEW was going to be a superspreader event), most of one of the levels of our team got it (athletes and parents along with several coaches). Half had no symptoms or cold-like symptoms and half were out for weeks. One coach's (10 year old) son got very ill for a long time. One of our coaches has had it twice and been pretty sick both times. We have a teenage staff member who got it and still can not smell or taste 8 months later.

With the vaccine (and a lot of people I know have gotten it) the most common issue was to be knocked out flat for a day, maybe two and then be fine. I don't know anyone who felt really bad for longer than that, or who had no issues. If you're talking in terms of which is worse to suffer through, I'd take the schedulable 2 days over the 50% chance of being laid up for weeks, for sure. 

[Spy Car]

40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

My circle has a very wide age range. More people in the 50s-60s cohort than any other due to the age of my spouse and and I, but it also includes people in their 70's, 80s, and 90s and many teen-agers and young people in their 20s inside and outside my family. 30-40 is probably the least well-represented group.

Bill

Edited May 20, 2021 by Spy Car

[Pawz4me]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

But a lot of us in our 50s (and maybe 60s) have older teen and young adult kids, and those kids have friends. And so we know lots of younger people who have been vaccinated.

[Sk8ermaiden]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

I'm in my 30s and so are the vast majority of my friends. It's not bias to report what has happened. It sounds like you and your husband are outliers. I work the front desk at my daughter's gym and speak to 100s of people a week. The vax was a hot topic for a while. And not one has reported more than 2 days of big side effects (sore arm and mild fatigue sometimes last a few days more.) 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I'm in my 30s and so are the vast majority of my friends. It's not bias to report what has happened. It sounds like you and your husband are outliers. I work the front desk at my daughter's gym and speak to 100s of people a week. The vax was a hot topic for a while. And not one has reported more than 2 days of big side effects (sore arm and mild fatigue sometimes last a few days more.) 

I didn't have more than 2 days of big side effects, either. I just had more than 2 days of annoying side effects. 

In my current poll, there's a minority but a sizable minority of people with 2+ days of annoying side effects. There are very few people who report long-term side effects that get in their way, but plenty of people who report side-effects other than simply injection site soreness. 

It's a reactogenic vaccine. There's nothing wrong with that. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

But a lot of us in our 50s (and maybe 60s) have older teen and young adult kids, and those kids have friends. And so we know lots of younger people who have been vaccinated.

And there's really no one you know who've had more than a day's side-effects? I don't mean, like, lying in bed for more than a day. I mean, side-effects you could notice for more than a day. 

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

If you're talking in terms of which is worse to suffer through, I'd take the schedulable 2 days over the 50% chance of being laid up for weeks, for sure. 

Definitely, although the problem is that vaccine reactions go up for younger people while COVID reactions go down. There's almost certainly an age at which you're likely to be sicker from the vaccine than from COVID. 

Again, if there's a 5% that a kid is a long hauler from COVID despite an initially asymptomatic presentation, then the fact that a kid is likely to feel worse from the vaccine than from COVID doesn't matter to me at all. This is apples and oranges -- we're comparing medians to averages... 

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And there's really no one you know who've had more than a day's side-effects? I don't mean, like, lying in bed for more than a day. I mean, side-effects you could notice for more than a day. 

Only one. I haven't spoken to her personally, but I've heard about her from family members (she's a family friend). As far as I can suss out she had fever/chills/aches that kept her on the couch for several days. She's in her mid-60's, I think. Definitely over 60.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Only one. I haven't spoken to her personally, but I've heard about her from family members (she's a family friend). As far as I can suss out she had fever/chills/aches that kept her on the couch for several days. She's in her mid-60's, I think. Definitely over 60.

Yeah, I'm not arguing people are going to be unable to manage for several days. Just that they may not be back to normal for several days. 

[Spy Car]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And there's really no one you know who've had more than a day's side-effects? I don't mean, like, lying in bed for more than a day. I mean, side-effects you could notice for more than a day. 

Such as slight residual arm tenderness?

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Such as slight residual arm tenderness?

Bill

No. I am excluding that. All vaccines I've taken have that. 

I excluded that in the poll as well. 

 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

No. I am excluding that. All vaccines I've taken have that. 

I excluded that in the poll as well. 

 

Then the answer remains: no.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Then the answer remains: no.

Bill

Interesting. We'll see what the poll results are. 

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I'm not arguing people are going to be unable to manage for several days. Just that they may not be back to normal for several days. 

Shoot, I was an absolute pest with my young adults. DH, too. And myself. I wanted so very, very badly for all of us to have some noticeable side effects--something that got our attention, not a piddly sore arm--because it would have made me feel like we were getting a good immune response to the vaccine (yeah, I know that's not necessarily a good indicator, but still . . .). But none of us had anything like that.

Honestly, just based on the experience of the four of us, and what I've heard from most other people -- If people think the Pfizer vaccine is all that bad they probably don't want to get the Shingrex vaccine. My experience with that wasn't bad at all IMO, but it was considerably worse than my experience with either Pfizer vaccine. My reaction to the first Shingrex vaccine was considerably worse than my combined reaction to the Pfizer vaccines. I did know for several days that I'd had it.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Shoot, I was an absolute pest with my young adults. DH, too. And myself. I wanted so very, very badly for all of us to have some noticeable side effects--something that got our attention, not a piddly sore arm--because it would have made me feel like we were getting a good immune response to the vaccine (yeah, I know that's not necessarily a good indicator, but still . . .). But none of us had anything like that.

Honestly, just based on the experience of the four of us, and what I've heard from most other people -- If people think the Pfizer vaccine is all that bad they probably don't want to get the Shingrex vaccine. My experience with that wasn't bad at all IMO, but it was considerably worse than my experience with either Pfizer vaccine. My reaction to the first Shingrex vaccine was considerably worse than my combined reaction to the Pfizer vaccines. I did know for several days that I'd had it.

Yeah, my in-laws also found Shingrex worse than Pfizer. My in-laws had about a day of symptoms from the mRNA vaccines (my MIL had Moderna), although my FIL's was odd and was GI-related and 3 days after the vaccine. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting. We'll see what the poll results are. 

Is this thread the "poll" or is their a separate poll that I missed?

Bill

 

[bluemongoose]

In my family/friends... Adults between 35-65 have had about just over 2 days of feeling crappy. The first day being laid out flat, the second day feeling better but not awesome, and the next half of the day just getting energy back. I have only heard a couple that felt completely fine for both doses and they seemed to all be above 60. I would say the majority felt fine on the first and horrid on the second. A few felt horrid on both.

The kids between 12-16 have been about 24 hrs of tired and achy and sore arms. Another day of just sore arm.

 

I know people who had COVID from ages 3yo-90. All of them survived, but several were hospitalized. Some had strokes. One died a year later of a secondary issue that started after COVID. Some who stayed home just felt like it was a cold, some were really really sick for a long long time. One family (all but one member of the family of five) got it a second time and were much worse that time.  2 were very very ill. 

 

To me, in general, the 2 days of feeling yucky from the vaccine has been better than all of the family and friends' COVID cases, except for a 3yo who had no symptoms. The vaccine is especially better than the 5 who were hospitalized for COVID, one who almost died in the hospital and had a stroke due to COVID, and the one who died a year later from a condition brought on by COVID. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Is this thread the "poll" or is their a separate poll that I missed?

Bill

There's a separate poll. I'll tag you. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, bluemongoose said:

I know people who had COVID from ages 3yo-90. All of them survived, but several were hospitalized. Some had strokes. One died a year later of a secondary issue that started after COVID. Some who stayed home just felt like it was a cold, some were really really sick for a long long time. One family (all but one member of the family of five) got it a second time and were much worse that time.  2 were very very ill. 

Do you know lots of kids who've had COVID? 

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

What people are reporting matches what the trial data showed as well, though. Most people with systemic reactions have them for only a day, sometimes two. I have certainly noticed that people who fretted a lot about the shot ahead of time or were really conflicted about having it, do  seem to report side effects at a higher rate than average, but I can’t say I’ve noticed the reverse— plenty of people who were gung ho about getting vaccinated have reported when they have ended up with strong side effects. I’m actually historically vaccine cautious, so if I was seeing something concerning, I would be noting it.

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, my in-laws also found Shingrex worse than Pfizer. My in-laws had about a day of symptoms from the mRNA vaccines (my MIL had Moderna), although my FIL's was odd and was GI-related and 3 days after the vaccine. 

I did have some intestinal cramping three days after my second Pfizer. But I have IBS, so that's not unusual for me and I can't say for sure it was due to the vaccine. I did report it on the VSafe app.

[bluemongoose]

This was in response to Not_a_Number's question. Somehow the quote went poof!

 

I have been sheltered at home for the last 15 months. So I am not around as many kids. But I know of for sure-as in officially diagnosed:

1-2yo (cold like)

1-3yo (asymptomatic)

2- 6yos (1 cold like, one flu like had COVID 2x)

1- 9yo (cold like-was helped by asthma meds)

1- 10yo (flu like COVID 2x)

1- 12yo (flu like COVID 2x-Major problems with breathing the second time, felt panicked, was scared-no previous health issues)-has had first vaccine now, their family really doesnt want to get it again!

1- 15yo (bad cold/mild flu like) first vaccine done now

1-18 yo (bad cold/flu like) first vaccine done now

 

All of these kid cases were in families that were being very careful (not anti-mask or COVID deniers), but one family member had to work out of the home. Kids are homeschoolers. The parents were still not eligible by age for a vaccine and they didn't have health risks. They were all very happy to get vaccinated when the vaccine became available to them. None of them wanted it again. They all have only had their first doses because over here, the adults ages 16-65 barely became eligible before the 12-15yo group did. So the majority of adults and kids are getting vaccinated at the same time here. 

The rest of the people I know that had diagnosed COVID were over 35yo. Most of these happened at the beginning of the pandemic. One was at the end of 2020. None could get vaccinated yet. There were several people who had symptoms but were not diagnosed, so it is unknown if it was COVID or not.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by bluemongoose

[kokotg]

Do we have any particular reasons to doubt the results the CDC has compiled about vaccine reactions? https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html

I mean, anecdotal evidence from people on this board is interesting and all, but I would expect that to be a lot more comprehensive and accurate. Median length of symptoms was 1 day. 

[kokotg]

One fun fact from that link is that 47.4% of vaccine recipients studied reported fatigue after pfizer....as did 33.4% of people who got the placebo. Hmm... Maybe a lot of people could just really use more sleep. Headache was similar: 41.9% who got the vaccine vs. 33.7% placebo.

[bluemongoose]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

One fun fact from that link is that 47.4% of vaccine recipients studied reported fatigue after pfizer....as did 33.4% of people who got the placebo. Hmm... Maybe a lot of people could just really use more sleep. Headache was similar: 41.9% who got the vaccine vs. 33.7% placebo.

Sign me up! I want a nap! Oh wait, I already had my two doses of Pfizer. Nevermind. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

Well, the study I linked, if I’m understanding it correctly, actually shows that nearly all of the adult Covid deaths DO have a record suggesting that the death could plausibly be from Covid. It’s the pediatric group (35%) and the 20 year olds (10%) that don’t find this. 
 

I am personally making no conclusions about adults or pediatrics from this or anything else. It’s going to take time, years, for everything to be carefully analyzed and for people who have full comprehension of all of the epidemiological literature to figure all of this out. 
 

I agree.  I'm not making conclusions either, just asking questions and staying aware that there is a range of possible true numbers at this point.

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Plum said:

I've said this before in another thread, but there's likely a significant number of people that have long term symptoms after their vaccine that may or may not have been a direct result of the vaccine. It could be correlation, causation or it could be pure coincidence. Most get labeled as a weird coincidence. Proving causation is especially onerous when doctors shrug and say they "there's a lot they don't know about this virus" and "we'll be learning a lot over the next year" which I have heard several times now. Therefore, and I know this firsthand, not all "reactions" are officially reported. Many with long covid and other underlying conditions like CFS already feel unheard and unsupported by friends, family, employers, their health insurance and their doctors. Because they are making it up, it's all in their head, and their suffering is minimized. It's no surprise to me that those with extended or delayed reactions to the vaccine (that everyone is being pressured to get) may be feeling the same. 

In this case everyone who received a vaccine or placebo was asked to keep a diary of symptoms for 7 days after....so in this group that was studied, all the reactions were officially reported. It's true that it would not take into account symptoms that lasted longer than 7 days, but that would be rare if the median duration of symptoms was 1 day. ETA: it's also not making judgements about whether the symptoms were a result of the vaccine, just reporting them (and, based on how often the same symptoms showed up in the placebo group, they very often WEREN'T related to the vaccine)

Edited May 20, 2021 by kokotg

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

And also, women have stronger reactions than men on average.

[Spy Car]

32 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Shoot, I was an absolute pest with my young adults. DH, too. And myself. I wanted so very, very badly for all of us to have some noticeable side effects--something that got our attention, not a piddly sore arm--because it would have made me feel like we were getting a good immune response to the vaccine (yeah, I know that's not necessarily a good indicator, but still . . .). But none of us had anything like that.

Honestly, just based on the experience of the four of us, and what I've heard from most other people -- If people think the Pfizer vaccine is all that bad they probably don't want to get the Shingrex vaccine. My experience with that wasn't bad at all IMO, but it was considerably worse than my experience with either Pfizer vaccine. My reaction to the first Shingrex vaccine was considerably worse than my combined reaction to the Pfizer vaccines. I did know for several days that I'd had it.

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I assume some people's experience is just different from ours. But I'm also seeing a strong correlation between what people report and what they believe. 

I also assume it's partially age-based. I'm in my 30s and DH is in his 40s. From what I've heard, younger people have stronger reactions, so I'm not surprised that people in their 50s and 60s would know people with less serious reactions. 

Seeing as my area is 81% vaccinated at this point, the people who have reported vaccine reactions and those who haven't, have all believed in the efficacy of vaccines.  I too, know people in a wide age range.  Other than you, every one else is just reporting what we have seen and heard.  We aren't seeing some conspiracy of hidden vaccine reactions. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

Bill, I got the Shingrix vaccine (both doses) before I got the Covid vaccine.  On purpose so that the timing wouldn't interfere with the Covid vaccine once I became eligible.   I had a bigger reaction to the Shingrix vaccine than the Covid ones for sure, but it still wasn't too bad..  Four days of arm pain and muscle pain.  The muscle pain wasn't as bad as what I get regularly with fibromyalgia so it was easier for me to brush off, however. 

[happi duck]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Seeing as my area is 81% vaccinated at this point, the people who have reported vaccine reactions and those who haven't, have all believed in the efficacy of vaccines.  I too, know people in a wide age range.  Other than you, every one else is just reporting what we have seen and heard.  We aren't seeing some conspiracy of hidden vaccine reactions. 

Wow! 81%!  That's great!

Is that fully vaxxed?  Our state is 50% first dose but like 35% for fully. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Seeing as my area is 81% vaccinated at this point, the people who have reported vaccine reactions and those who haven't, have all believed in the efficacy of vaccines.  I too, know people in a wide age range.  Other than you, every one else is just reporting what we have seen and heard.  We aren't seeing some conspiracy of hidden vaccine reactions. 

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy 🙂 

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Bill, I got the Shingrix vaccine (both doses) before I got the Covid vaccine.  On purpose so that the timing wouldn't interfere with the Covid vaccine once I became eligible.   I had a bigger reaction to the Shingrix vaccine than the Covid ones for sure, but it still wasn't too bad..  Four days of arm pain and muscle pain.  The muscle pain wasn't as bad as what I get regularly with fibromyalgia so it was easier for me to brush off, however. 

Good to know. I missed the window pre-Covid and am preparing myself now that I feel "liberated."

I feel a very strong incentive to not re-experience shingles (trust me on that one) and don't want to push my luck.

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, happi duck said:

Wow! 81%!  That's great!

Is that fully vaxxed?  Our state is 50% first dose but like 35% for fully. 

I had to go back and look at our county map (which then breaks it down by zip code, which is what I was looking at).  It says "all residents in that zip code, 12+ who have started the series".  So I guess that would be one dose (though of course if that vaccine was the J & J then one dose is the full series for them. )  This particular map doesn't break it down further. 

My state is a different matter due to mix of rural/city and I believe, also, politics.  52.7% at least one dose.  41.3 % fully vaxxed. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Good to know. I missed the window pre-Covid and am preparing myself now that I feel "liberated."

I feel a very strong incentive to not re-experience shingles (trust me on that one) and don't want to push my luck.

Bill

Since I have non-shingles related nerve pain regularly, my doctor was VERY ADAMANT that I get the Shingrix vaccine.  I don't know what one nerve pain on top of another nerve pain would be like?  But I know that I don't want to find out!

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Do we have any particular reasons to doubt the results the CDC has compiled about vaccine reactions? https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html

I mean, anecdotal evidence from people on this board is interesting and all, but I would expect that to be a lot more comprehensive and accurate. Median length of symptoms was 1 day. 

This is from the trial? Well, one issue is it caps at a week. But I’d also want more detail from how they did it.

[kokotg]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

This is from the trial? Well, one issue is it caps at a week. But I’d also want more detail from how they did it.

It says all participants were asked to keep a diary of symptoms for a week.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, kokotg said:

It says all participants were asked to keep a diary of symptoms for a week.

Right. I’d love to hear how this diary looked and what the compliance was.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Since I have non-shingles related nerve pain regularly, my doctor was VERY ADAMANT that I get the Shingrix vaccine.  I don't know what one nerve pain on top of another nerve pain would be like?  But I know that I don't want to find out!

I'd never experienced nerve pain before, so you have my deep sympathy.

You definitely made the smart move. 

I need to get off the dime. Thank you for the motivation.

Bill

[kokotg]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. I’d love to hear how this diary looked and what the compliance was.

well, surely a study where every participant was asked to report all symptoms, that includes thousands of participants and a placebo group, is going to give us better information than the selectively reported experiences of a bunch of a people on a homeschool message board, though?