Murder-suicides in the news

[sassenach]

Is it just me or has there been a crazy uptick of these? I feel like every day is another news report. I'm not sure if it's just my algorithm or what, but I do wonder if these get tracked.

[Katy]

As the child of a cop, I think it’s just making the news more often. I heard about them on the scanner as a kid far more oftethan they ever made the news.  I think it is probably happening less frequently. If there is an uptick it’s likely related to Covid isolation worsening addictions. 

[gardenmom5]

with the lockdowns - suicides in general have been up.

[Ditto]

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me.    In the USA mental health isn't a priority in many areas (insurance coverage, losing the stigma of having a mental illness,  support for those suffering).  That was already a huge problem prior to the pandemic.  Now with the pandemic we are all locked down (many of us anyway),  people are falling behind on mortgages/rent/bills, in addition to being home more.  Add in lack of child care and/or virtual schooling and possibly even those that were receiving help for their mental illnesses.  Put all of this together and you have a recipe for disaster.   It is profoundly sad.

[Corraleno]

28 minutes ago, Plum said:

I think it’s a theme the media is driving.
My superintendent made the rounds saying student suicides are up. Never mind they are conflating annual, school year and “since the pandemic started in March”. My state has always been in the top 10 for suicide rates. A decade ago it was #1 in the nation and had been lowering rates to where we were off the top 10. It is a suicide destination much like the Golden Gate Bridge. Clark County has worked hard to increase free and low cost support since 1 Oct, which was a suicide/mass murder event. This state is boom or bust. That cyclical nature results in suicide rates going up and down as well. 

So when I hear the same thing repeated all over the media, I have to question motivation. 
Here is a news story from March 2019. 

“In Clark County, there was a 90 percent increase in suicides for youth under the age of 18 last year. 
Data from the Nevada Electronic Death Registry System shows that 19 youths committed suicide in the county in 2018, compared to 10 in 2017. This trend is mirrored throughout the rest of the state, with a 60 percent increase being reported in the remaining counties.”

 

 

 

 

 

https://news3lv.com/news/local/report-finds-sharp-increase-in-suicides-among-teens-in-clark-county

 

and here’s what Jara and CNN is saying. 

“Nevada's Clark County School District, which has more than 326,000 students enrolled, has been fully remote since March 2020 -- when the Covid-19 pandemic began. In the nine months since March, there have been 19 student suicides in the district, a school official confirmed to CNN. In the year before, there were only nine. 

The district did not give evidence of a direct link between the deaths and remote learning. However, six students died by suicide between March 16 and June 30, and 12 students died between July 1 and December 31. There was one more death earlier this month, a district official confirmed to CNN on Monday.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/us/clark-county-school-district-covid-suicide-trnd/index.html

And unfortunately the erroneous claim that youth suicides "doubled because of school closures" is being repeated all over both social media and news media as "proof" that lockdowns and school closures are bad. From what I've read, it seemed like suicides were actually down somewhat overall. But maybe those stats were for Canada, where the covid death rate is lower and they have a better social safety net? If so, that's an argument for lowering the covid death rate and providing better services, not opening everything so more people die or go broke. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Corraleno

[Soror]

I think the numbers are still being analyzed but I just read an NPR article about this which links a CDC report. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/02/962060105/child-psychiatrists-warn-that-the-pandemic-may-be-driving-up-kids-suicide-risk

I've not noticed an increase in reporting of murder/suicides but I have personally seen people suffering the mental health effects of the pandemic and all that involves. How that translates into the population as a whole I don't know, anecdotes aren't data. I'm just as tired of people blowing off those suffering negatively from the lockdowns as I am of hearing those act like COVID doesn't exist. There is enough suffering to go around. Having a loved one whose mental health took a nosedive from the lockdowns there is little support from either side.

[sassenach]

I don't know that we will actually know if suicides are up for awhile. I don't understand it, but my county lags in publishing that data by several years. For example, right now the most recent data I can access was 2018 and suicides were up slightly at that point. 

Pretty much all claims in either direction seem to be guesswork. 

I do believe we have data that overdoses are up in my state. And I absolutely know that school closures are contributing to mental health problems for the teens in my circles.

[wathe]

1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

If I find it I will link it, but I think some of our boardies in the medical vocation have noticed otherwise. I don’t know what statistics are showing, but I remember some shared their own observations. 
 

@TCB

@wathe

@MedicMom

Those I tagged please forgive me if I remembered this incorrectly. 

Yes.  I have personally seen a noticeable dip in self-harm and suicide attempt presentations in the emerg, most notably amongst adolescents and young adults (fewer mental health presentations of all kinds in young people, actually) .  

There have been reports stating that suicide rates are objectively lower in Canada.  Call volumes to crisis lines have gone up, though, and suicide rates among healthcare workers may have increased.    Interestingly, using the search term "suicide rates Canada pandemic" hits are mostly about worries and projections that suicide rates might increase with the pandemic.  I agree with PP that there has this has been a media theme.

I think it's important to note that murder-suicide and suicide stats aren't comparable. They are very different phenomena IME.

ETA:  I don't think we will really know for years. 

ETA again:  Completed suicides don't come through the emergency department.  And maybe those in crisis are too afraid to come to the hospital during a pandemic.  There are lots of reasons why my anecdotal observations might not match the reality on the ground.  But fewer visits for self-harm attempts and suicide attempts is real, I think.

Edited February 4, 2021 by wathe

[sassenach]

3 minutes ago, Soror said:

I think the numbers are still being analyzed but I just read an NPR article about this which links a CDC report. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/02/962060105/child-psychiatrists-warn-that-the-pandemic-may-be-driving-up-kids-suicide-risk

I've not noticed an increase in reporting of murder/suicides but I have personally seen people suffering the mental health effects of the pandemic and all that involves. How that translates into the population as a whole I don't know, anecdotes aren't data. I'm just as tired of people blowing off those suffering negatively from the lockdowns as I am of hearing those act like COVID doesn't exist. There is enough suffering to go around. Having a loved one whose mental health took a nosedive from the lockdowns there is little support from either side.

Absolutely. 

[sassenach]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

Yes.  I have personally seen a noticeable dip in self-harm and suicide attempt presentations in the emerg, most notably amongst adolescents and young adults (fewer mental health presentations of all kinds in young people, actually) .  

There have been reports stating that suicide rates are objectively lower in Canada.  Call volumes to crisis lines have gone up, though, and suicide rates among healthcare workers may have increased.    Interestingly, using the search term "suicide rates Canada pandemic" hits are mostly about worries and projections that suicide rates might increase with the pandemic.  I agree with PP that there has this has been a media theme.

I think it's important to note that murder-suicide and suicide stats aren't comparable. They are very different phenomena IME.

Yeah, that's the one that I noticed I'm seeing a new report nearly daily. Could be reporting, could be something. It doesn't appear that there's an agency that tracks this particular issue. 

[Corraleno]

21 minutes ago, Soror said:

I think the numbers are still being analyzed but I just read an NPR article about this which links a CDC report. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/02/962060105/child-psychiatrists-warn-that-the-pandemic-may-be-driving-up-kids-suicide-risk

I've not noticed an increase in reporting of murder/suicides but I have personally seen people suffering the mental health effects of the pandemic and all that involves. How that translates into the population as a whole I don't know, anecdotes aren't data. I'm just as tired of people blowing off those suffering negatively from the lockdowns as I am of hearing those act like COVID doesn't exist. There is enough suffering to go around. Having a loved one whose mental health took a nosedive from the lockdowns there is little support from either side.

I haven't seen anyone blowing off those who are suffering from lockdowns. I don't think there's any question that millions of people are suffering badly from the social effects of this pandemic — including most of us on this board. Some of that is the result of social isolation, some of that is anxiety about getting sick or dying, and some of that is grief over having already lost loved ones to this disease.

What I object to is the widespread claim in certain circles that since lockdowns cause suffering, we need to open everything up, even if that dramatically increases the spread, which in turn will lead to a significant increase in both mutations and deaths. And frankly there are very very few places in the US that are actually "locked down." My state is one of the strictest, and stores are open, kids activities are available as long as they don't exceed the allowed capacity, people can meet up in groups of 10, etc. I think that most people who are staying home and not going out are choosing to do so because they don't want to get sick, not because an oppressive government is keeping them locked up against their will. 

I mean, we're in the middle of a deadly worldwide pandemic that has killed over 2 million people, nearly a quarter of them in the US. It's a horrible situation, with no solution that avoids suffering. All we can do is try to choose the least-worst options.

[Garga]

I’d love to know what’s going on.

There are lots of stories of people being depressed, etc, because of lockdowns. But I also hear just as many stories about people feeling more relaxed than ever, and of kids flourishing without the pressures of being in school all day with bullies, etc.

I wonder how the numbers really will pan out.  It could be that there’s an uptick, or perhaps some of the depression has switched from one group to another? 

I’d suspect that overall, people are probably more depressed and upset than in normal years, but there are going to be those who are happier with the lockdowns.

[Scarlett]

31 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I haven't seen anyone blowing off those who are suffering from lockdowns. I don't think there's any question that millions of people are suffering badly from the social effects of this pandemic — including most of us on this board. Some of that is the result of social isolation, some of that is anxiety about getting sick or dying, and some of that is grief over having already lost loved ones to this disease.

What I object to is the widespread claim in certain circles that since lockdowns cause suffering, we need to open everything up, even if that dramatically increases the spread, which in turn will lead to a significant increase in both mutations and deaths. And frankly there are very very few places in the US that are actually "locked down." My state is one of the strictest, and stores are open, kids activities are available as long as they don't exceed the allowed capacity, people can meet up in groups of 10, etc. I think that most people who are staying home and not going out are choosing to do so because they don't want to get sick, not because an oppressive government is keeping them locked up against their will. 

I mean, we're in the middle of a deadly worldwide pandemic that has killed over 2 million people, nearly a quarter of them in the US. It's a horrible situation, with no solution that avoids suffering. All we can do is try to choose the least-worst options.

Exactly.  What is so difficult about understanding that.   This situation is very devastating on so many fronts.  But ignoring the guidelines is not going to make it better.  It will make it worse.  

 

[Scarlett]

We had two horrific crimes locally ish with in the last week.  One was a murder/suicide (a man killed his girlfriend and their two small children and then himself).  Another a man killed 5 children (from ages 1-9, 3 of which were his own children) his brother and tried to kill the mother of those 5 children.  He is in custody.  So I have no idea what drives that kind of behavior and honestly it is probably situation specific and maybe related to the pandemic or maybe not.  I would think job loss and being unable to pay bills would be more difficult on people than isolation but who knows.

[Soror]

52 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I haven't seen anyone blowing off those who are suffering from lockdowns. I don't think there's any question that millions of people are suffering badly from the social effects of this pandemic — including most of us on this board. Some of that is the result of social isolation, some of that is anxiety about getting sick or dying, and some of that is grief over having already lost loved ones to this disease. 

I mean, we're in the middle of a deadly worldwide pandemic that has killed over 2 million people, nearly a quarter of them in the US. It's a horrible situation, with no solution that avoids suffering. All we can do is try to choose the least-worst options.

I agree there are no good options. Perhaps people aren't trying to blow things off but it has came across that way in many posts over the last year.

My state has hardly had any lockdown. I'm disgusted with my governor and certainly didn't vote for him.  I don't agree with the approach and it has put me on the outs with nearly every one I know. But I feel much more empathy for those opposed to lockdowns due to the emotional and economic toll than I did at the start. 

[Melissa Louise]

It's no surprise that a minority of men, who are extremely controlling of women and children, continue to be so during a pandemic, some to the point of family annihilation.

I'd be wary of the 'pandemic/lockdown made an otherwise nice guy snap' narrative.

I'd want to see hard data before claiming an increase, and I'd also suggest that the behaviours that drove family annihilations in the last year were present and causing great family misery well before the arrival of Covid. 

[Katy]

I think that in the 80's & 90's mental health and suicide was just starting to have less of a stigma.  More and more mainline churches changed doctrines from "definitely going to hell, not to be buried in a Christian cemetary" thing to "a mental illness is no different than any other illness."  As it's continued to get de-stigmatized I think it is reported more often and more honestly.  But overall the world is getting safer all the time.

ETA:  as the child of a cop I KNOW there were suicides in my small town as a child that were basically kept private and the family told the public it was an accident.  That doesn't happen as often any more.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Katy

[Selkie]

I read a lot of crime-related news and have not noticed an uptick in murder-suicides. They seem to be occurring with the same sad frequency as always.

[sassenach]

Interesting to hear everyone's feedback. I think it's especially interesting how many people went straight to Covid implications/debates. I guess that's inescapable right now. I googled it and counted 8 reports in the last 3 days. I'm amazed that that's normal, but like I said, I haven't been paying attention before now. 

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Interesting to hear everyone's feedback. I think it's especially interesting how many people went straight to Covid implications/debates. I guess that's inescapable right now. I googled it and counted 8 reports in the last 3 days. I'm amazed that that's normal, but like I said, I haven't been paying attention before now. 

According to this article, which is based on stats from 2019, the US averages 11 murder-suicides per week. Most involve men killing an intimate partner and/or their children, and the biggest risk factors are a prior history of domestic violence and presence of a gun in the house.

[sassenach]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

According to this article, which is based on stats from 2019, the US averages 11 murder-suicides per week. Most involve men killing an intimate partner and/or their children, and the biggest risk factors are a prior history of domestic violence and presence of a gun in the house.

Good grief

[wathe]

20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

According to this article, which is based on stats from 2019, the US averages 11 murder-suicides per week. Most involve men killing an intimate partner and/or their children, and the biggest risk factors are a prior history of domestic violence and presence of a gun in the house.

Yes.  And pending separation or divorce is a common precipitating co-factor.  This paper gives a good overview (it's from 2009, but I think still relevant).  Generally a crime by men against women and children.  An extreme on the continuum of domestic violence and misogyny.  It's distinctly different than other suicides.

[KidsHappen]

One of my dds owns a restaurant and earlier this week they lost five employees or family members of employees in a 24 hour period. All suicides of older teens or young adults. They had to close the restaurant for a few days and she is a little traumatized. These were people from a middle class small town with no obvious warning signs, It's scary. 

[Selkie]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

According to this article, which is based on stats from 2019, the US averages 11 murder-suicides per week. Most involve men killing an intimate partner and/or their children, and the biggest risk factors are a prior history of domestic violence and presence of a gun in the house.

I live in a rural area with a low crime rate. Right off the bat, I can think of three murder-suicides that have happened here in recent years (none during the pandemic). Two of the cases involved people we knew. One was a wealthy client of ours who killed his wife and then himself. The other was a man who killed his young stepchild (my kid's classmate and friend 😞) and then committed suicide. Neither case involved a gun, and there was no record of domestic violence - although who knows what goes on behind closed doors, obviously. Since it's happened that often in our usually-peaceful little county, I have no trouble believing the 11 per week average for the US.

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, Seasider too said:

I agree with what you’re saying but would change the last sentence. I think there are a few who are happier, but even us introverts like our coffee shops. I do believe that there are people who are tolerating the restrictions much better than others. 
 

And upthread, I didn’t mean to imply people aren’t having a hard time with all this, including suicidal ideation. This year has been incredibly challenging. I’m just hopeful that some of the anecdotal evidence might support that it’s not as bad as we thought (with regard to self harm). Only time will tell for sure. 

Introvert here and I was surprised to feel that restrictions were hurting the mental health.  I think extroverts are better at seeking out contact because they know they need it.  Introverts actually do need human contact but are less likely to actively seek it so are more dependent on the incidental stuff that comes with normal life.  

[ktgrok]

Also even if there WAS an increase, not sure how you would know if it was from lock downs (which we have had very little of) vs the stress of worrying about the disease, grief from knowing people that died, etc. Not to mention that one of the lingering symptoms of covid can be depression, so getting the virus could make a person worse. 

There ARE increasing overdoses, but that's a continuation of a trend, and from what I've heard/read on the subject, due to an increase in fentanyl in the heroin supply and fentanyl in general. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://time.com/5928539/domestic-violence-covid-19/
 

I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread although I haven’t read it in depth to check everything in it.  It seems like suicides in general haven’t increased but domestic violence may have and there’s probably a stronger link between dv and murder suicides than typical mental health and murder suicides.  (In other words I think someone with a history of domestic violence is more likely to kill their family than someone with a history of mental health issues.  Maybe?)

[Melissa in Australia]

something I have observed recently is that if the male is the one who kills his kids/ partner then himself it is called domestic violence, but if the female kills her kids/ partner  then herself it is called a mental health problem.

[TravelingChris]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:22 AM, Melissa in Australia said:

something I have observed recently is that if the male is the one who kills his kids/ partner then himself it is called domestic violence, but if the female kills her kids/ partner  then herself it is called a mental health problem.

And that is totally wrong.

[Melissa in Australia]

I agree that it is totally wrong, but that is how it is being reported.

 Of course a person ( male or female)  who kills their kids is mentally unstable  and it is also domestics violence.