facebook is FULL of people posting get togethers, group meals, group selfies

[Janeway]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Ehh.

I don't drive drunk and endanger everyone on the road around me, and I get righteously angry at those who do. Because I--or someone I love--may be endangered by drunk drivers, I think that gives me the right to feel anger.

I feel the same regarding Covid behaviors. There is no "you do you" in either of these scenarios that doesn't affect innocent people.

Ehh, not really. You don't go out and be in those gatherings and you wear a mask and wash your hands. It is not at all the same as a drunk driver on public roads. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Ehh.

I don't drive drunk and endanger everyone on the road around me, and I get righteously angry at those who do. Because I--or someone I love--may be endangered by drunk drivers, I think that gives me the right to feel anger.

I feel the same regarding Covid behaviors. There is no "you do you" in either of these scenarios that doesn't affect innocent people.

Exactly!

Heck, the person I'm talking about who had two big parties within 10 days, one of which he was almost definitely contagious with Covid at, is a police officer. At this point their department has almost ALL officers out with Covid. That effects the safety of the entire city! His kids, who have been living with a known positive person who should still be under quarantine are going to go to school and potentially expose others.  HIs wife, who is supposed to be quarantining, is going out and about potentially exposing others - and I have a lot of people I care about that live in that community (town where I grew up). 

I am upset because they are endangering others. To have parties for crying out loud!

[ktgrok]

Just now, Janeway said:

Ehh, not really. You don't go out and be in those gatherings and you wear a mask and wash your hands. It is not at all the same as a drunk driver on public roads. 

Masks are not 100 percent! We have a boardie here who is a widow, whose husband wore a mask and got it. And if the hospitals are overloaded and I am in a car accident, and they can't treat me effectively because others decided to have parties and not to quarantine, etc...that puts me at risk. If one of my loved ones needs the police in my home town, and they don't have enough officers to respons because no one on the force was taking it seriously and they are all out sick - that is not solved by masks. 

[kokotg]

Just now, Janeway said:

Ehh, not really. You don't go out and be in those gatherings and you wear a mask and wash your hands. It is not at all the same as a drunk driver on public roads. 

Would you like to explain how it works for health care workers, first responders, teachers, people who work at grocery stores and restaurants, and everyone else who doesn't have the choice not to come in contact with the people going to the gatherings? If people didn't want to come in contact with drunk drivers, they could just stay home as well, couldn't they?

[Pawz4me]

51 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Ehh, not really. You don't go out and be in those gatherings and you wear a mask and wash your hands. It is not at all the same as a drunk driver on public roads. 

I do all the right things. Simply because they're the right things to do, and I very much believe in the golden rule/ethic of reciprocity. But you know what? I can't go with my DH to his oncologist appointment tomorrow, largely because of the people who think they can "do them" and to hell with everyone else. This bothers him greatly. He relies on me because I'm much more medically knowledgeable than he is, and (as is often the case with cancer patients and others with life threatening illnesses), another person often hears things the patient misses. If he needs hospital care both of us are harmed by the "maskholes." Him because he may not be able to get the care he needs, and me from the undue stress of not being able to visit or having very limited access. Our entire family was harmed a couple of weeks ago when MIL had to go into the hospital for a heart procedure and we were hugely constrained by the visitor rules and limits. I could go on. But you either "get it" and care about others or you don't (general "you").

Edited January 5, 2021 by Pawz4me

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I do all the right things. Simply because they're the right things to do, and I very much believe in the golden rule/ethic of reciprocity. But you know what? I can't go with my DH to his oncologist appointment tomorrow, largely because of the people who think they can "do them." This bothers him greatly. He relies on me because I'm much more medically knowledgeable than he is, and (as is often the case with cancer patients and others with life threatening illnesses), another person often hears things the patient misses. If he needs hospital care (a not unusual occurrence) again both of us are harmed by the "maskholes," and potentially by a LOT if there's no space for him. Our entire family was harmed a couple of weeks ago when MIL had to go into the hospital for a heart procedure and we were hugely constrained by the visitor rules and limits. I could go on. But you either get it and care about others or you don't (general "you").

Yeah. My grandmother spent Christmas in quarantine alone in her room at her assisted living place because people just doing them brought covid in. That's what's happening to the people who DON'T get sick. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

I honestly think this falls in to the "you do you and I'll do me" category. You are not doing those things and great for you. But for some reason, you feel all this anger at people who are not doing what you do. I think media has led people to think they can constantly be in each others' business, full of hate and anger. This is not a good thing. The entire country has been raging for months now. People just need to take a step back and be comfortable enough with their own choices that they are not so concerned with other's choices. 

As long as the people then isolate from the world and keep their germs confined to their circle of people who don't seem to mind, it would be fine.
However, when these people interact with me in their capacity as coworkers, students, medical professionals, carers for vulnerable loved ones etc, it makes it my business. Because their choices then directly affect whether I or my loved ones get ill. And no, people cannot freely choose not to go to work, not to need medical care, or not to be in a nursing home.

Edited January 5, 2021 by regentrude

[bookbard]

Just want to add - I've said this before - the fact is, most people are selfish and don't want people telling them what to do. That's not peculiar to the USA, I'm sure. I can see it here in Australia. 

You have to account for that tendency in people (which, at root, is a necessary thing, so you take care of yourself) when you make rules and laws. Which is why again I look at what's happening in the UK and in the USA and say - it's not because you're worse people. If there were no fines and rules and strict guidelines and oversight, it would've been right through Australia. It's simply up to leadership. There's only one reason people are wearing masks in our state now, and that's because there'll be a $200 fine and no one wants to risk that. 

[Wheres Toto]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

What is wrong with people???? Between my friend's brother being positive and his wife and kids going out and about like no big deal, possibly spreading it, and this story. Are people that dumb? Uninformed? Uncaring? Do they just not know that if you were exposed to a person with Covid, or Covid symptoms, you have to quarantine???

Uninformed? Maybe if they want to be.  I feel like at this point it's a deliberate choice. 

Uncaring?  Yep, otherwise they'd be getting informed

Dumb?  I certainly think so.  

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Well, here's just one reason why other people's choices about this stuff absolutely affect me. DH (high school teacher) just got an e-mail today letting him know that because the federal act that covered COVID leave wasn't extended, if he needs to be out for covid related reasons, including a quarantine, he'll have to use his regular sick leave. He has 10 days of sick leave a year, so one quarantine because of a close contact would wipe that out. If he got quarantined again, he'd lose 10 days of pay. Over the break, there have been at least two parties in my neighborhood thrown by people who send their kids to school in our district. One of those kids brings covid to school because their parents couldn't skip the annual party this year and their teacher could go two weeks without pay because of it. Selfish actions have consequences for other people; that's why I'm bothered by them. 

I think it is silly for a teacher to quarantine at home over a student having Covid. Always, at school, everyone should assume anyone else could/does have Covid. Quarantining over a positive test of someone else is futile, unless let's say, it was your own spouse, someone you have been touching and all over. I have seen so many people quarantine because they found out someone had Covid who was across the room from them or something and not one of those people got it. Everyone I have known of who actually got Covid, got it from someone who did not know they had it until they passed it on. 

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think it is silly for a teacher to quarantine at home over a student having Covid. Always, at school, everyone should assume anyone else could/does have Covid. Quarantining over a positive test of someone else is futile, unless let's say, it was your own spouse, someone you have been touching and all over. I have seen so many people quarantine because they found out someone had Covid who was across the room from them or something and not one of those people got it. Everyone I have known of who actually got Covid, got it from someone who did not know they had it until they passed it on. 

Unfortunately for all those teachers who are going to lose their pay, it's the school system in cooperation with the county health department that makes that call instead of you. You're welcome to make some calls to the epidemiologists at the health department to tell them quarantines for close contacts are silly, though.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by kokotg

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

As long as the people then isolate from the world and keep their germs confined to their circle of people who don't seem to mind, it would be fine.
However, when these people interact with me in their capacity as coworkers, students, medical professionals, carers for vulnerable loved ones etc, it makes it my business. Because their choices then directly affect whether I or my loved ones get ill. And no, people cannot freely choose not to go to work, not to need medical care, or not to be in a nursing home.

But where do we draw the line?  Is it my business if someone goes to get a haircut? A pedicure? Makes an extra trip to the grocery store to pick up an item that they want to make a special recipe when they have other food in their home to eat?  

Or, if they go to work when the do not HAVE to?  I know young people living it home who are working, not to put food on the table, but to have spending money, for savings, to establish a career long term.  If there is someone who is of retirement age and does have enough money to retire and afford basic necessities, but enjoys working or wants more financial security or to save for some special purchase?  My university gave faculty the option of teaching in-person or online.  Is it my business what another professor chooses?  If someone who chose in-person, gets sick and then spreads COVID to others, am I justifiably angry at the choice they made?  Does it matter if they decided to do it because they thought it was better for their students, or easier for them, or more rewarding for them?  

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But where do we draw the line?  Is it my business if someone goes to get a haircut? A pedicure? Makes an extra trip to the grocery store to pick up an item that they want to make a special recipe when they have other food in their home to eat?  

Or, if they go to work when the do not HAVE to?  I know young people living it home who are working, not to put food on the table, but to have spending money, for savings, to establish a career long term.  If there is someone who is of retirement age and does have enough money to retire and afford basic necessities, but enjoys working or wants more financial security or to save for some special purchase?  My university gave faculty the option of teaching in-person or online.  Is it my business what another professor chooses?  If someone who chose in-person, gets sick and then spreads COVID to others, am I justifiably angry at the choice they made?  Does it matter if they decided to do it because they thought it was better for their students, or easier for them, or more rewarding for them?  

I think those are important questions, especially given how little guidance many of us have been given by our local and national leaders about what's safe and what's not. And I think it's important that we don't shame people who get sick. But this thread was started specifically to talk about people having large, unmasked gatherings, and I don't think that's a grey area.

[math teacher]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

I think it is silly for a teacher to quarantine at home over a student having Covid. Always, at school, everyone should assume anyone else could/does have Covid. Quarantining over a positive test of someone else is futile, unless let's say, it was your own spouse, someone you have been touching and all over. I have seen so many people quarantine because they found out someone had Covid who was across the room from them or something and not one of those people got it. Everyone I have known of who actually got Covid, got it from someone who did not know they had it until they passed it on. 

We don't get a choice. Guidelines are put into place by the PTB.

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, kand said:

 

I’m frankly so tired of this non-argument. It’s gotten so old. Over and over people say we’re not talking about those things, we’re talking about people having parties and big gatherings and people going out and about even when they know they or a family member have Covid. And over and over again people say what about people who have to work, what about this, what about that. How about we just start with agreeing that the middle of a raging pandemic is not the time for parties? Can we agree there? Can we agree that people should stay home if another member of their household has Covid?

I did not say anything about people who have to work.  I also did not say anything about it being OK for people to have parties.  I certainly did not say anything about people going out and about whey they know they or a family member has COVID.   I did ask where we draw the line.  

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I did not say anything about people who have to work.  I also did not say anything about it being OK for people to have parties.  I certainly did not say anything about people going out and about whey they know they or a family member has COVID.   I did ask where we draw the line.  

Somewhere on the other side of parties and ignoring quarantine guidelines. 

I'm upset about those things. Coming to ask about other things is a red herring. 

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Somewhere on the other side of parties and ignoring quarantine guidelines. 

I'm upset about those things. Coming to ask about other things is a red herring. 

I realize that you are upset about those things.   I don't see how having a discussion, in response to what another poster had posted, is a red herring. I was not arguing that you should not be upset about those things.  I was attempting to ask a question for thought.  

[kokotg]

14 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I did not say anything about people who have to work.  I also did not say anything about it being OK for people to have parties.  I certainly did not say anything about people going out and about whey they know they or a family member has COVID.   I did ask where we draw the line.  

I think the best time to ask those questions would be if and when you see someone being called out for taking on a part time job they don't NEED or for getting a haircut. It's certainly possible I've missed it, but I haven't seen much of that here. Quite the opposite--I see a lot of threads where people wrestle with those kinds of issues and want advice on what's safe and reasonable and what's not, and they generally get very supportive responses. 

Obviously schools are a big issue for me right now. I personally don't feel that it's safe for schools to be open much of anywhere in the US right now, but I also understand that sending a kid to school in person is a really complicated issue for a lot of people, and I don't judge anyone who does it. I absolutely judge people who throw a big party and then send their kid to school the next day, though. 

And I think responding to "I'm really upset that so many people are having big indoor gatherings" with "but who are you to tell people they can't get haircuts?!" is disingenuous. (now there are like 10 new posts since I started writing, so I'll go read those now).

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

In the case of my friend's brother, his wife's grandfather died of Covid, and they still are not taking precautions. 

There is a rather large contingent of people who feel that older folks dying is not a big deal—not that they root for it, but they don’t think it’s avoidable. Kin to those folks is the blame they victims crowd that sees people with pre-existing conditions as not really counting because they were unhealthy. I am seeing a lot of this on FB, but people think they are not really saying this because they are saying it obliquely.

[kokotg]

Just now, kbutton said:

There is a rather large contingent of people who feel that older folks dying is not a big deal—not that they root for it, but they don’t think it’s avoidable. Kin to those folks is the blame they victims crowd that sees people with pre-existing conditions as not really counting because they were unhealthy. I am seeing a lot of this on FB, but people think they are not really saying this because they are saying it obliquely.

It's really disheartening how many people think "old people don't matter anyway" is a winning argument.

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

In the case of my friend's brother, his wife's grandfather died of Covid, and they still are not taking precautions. 

I am seeing this, too. I thought people would change when their friends and family members were affected. They have not, at least not that I can tell. 

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

There is a rather large contingent of people who feel that older folks dying is not a big deal—not that they root for it, but they don’t think it’s avoidable. Kin to those folks is the blame they victims crowd that sees people with pre-existing conditions as not really counting because they were unhealthy. I am seeing a lot of this on FB, but people think they are not really saying this because they are saying it obliquely.

There's a recent video circulating of a guy lying in a hospital bed with tubes in his nose saying he used to think it was a hoax and masks were bad but he was wrong and he wants people to take it seriously. The tweet I saw with the video was from the NY Post, so it was mostly that readership who was commenting on it. In addition to the expected deluge of posts claiming it was fake (he's a paid actor, hospital staff somehow blackmailed him into making it, etc.), there were a whole lot of people blaming him for being fat, claiming that masks/distancing/etc. are useless and the real cause of severe illness and death from covid is "underlying conditions," so people with underlying conditions should "work on that" instead of infringing on other people's freedoms. 

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think the best time to ask those questions would be if and when you see someone being called out for taking on a part time job they don't NEED or for getting a haircut. It's certainly possible I've missed it, but I haven't seen much of that here. Quite the opposite--I see a lot of threads where people wrestle with those kinds of issues and want advice on what's safe and reasonable and what's not, and they generally get very supportive responses. 

Obviously schools are a big issue for me right now. I personally don't feel that it's safe for schools to be open much of anywhere in the US right now, but I also understand that sending a kid to school in person is a really complicated issue for a lot of people, and I don't judge anyone who does it. I absolutely judge people who throw a big party and then send their kid to school the next day, though. 

And I think responding to "I'm really upset that so many people are having big indoor gatherings" with "but who are you to tell people they can't get haircuts?!" is disingenuous. (now there are like 10 new posts since I started writing, so I'll go read those now).

I did not respond to the bolded statement, nor did I respond with the response you have written.  

Personally, I do not know people who are having big indoor gatherings, but I do know people who are in the situations that I described.  So, they are much more relevant in my life.

I think most people are doing the best they can do in a very difficult situation and time.  I am seeing a lot of "other people shouldn't..." but when it comes to one's personal decisions or those of their family/friends they are not looking as closely at those decisions.  What I am seeing is more along the lines of "Of course, those people shouldn't be together sharing a meal and taking a picture without a mask, but it is fine if I go get a haircut because I wear a mask, go first thing in the morning, I am careful, and I would look silly if I didn't get a haircut."  I haven't been to a large gathering, nor have I gotten a haircut.  Of the people I know that who have done either in the past few months, I don't think I can say that one is OK while the other is not.  

My dear childhood friend flew across country on Christmas day with her children and grandchild to see her mother.  I am sure there were pictures of Facebook of their gathering--from several households.  This is not a decision I would have made, but I am hesitant to be upset with my friend for doing it.  The day after Christmas her mother accidentally fell, cracked her skull in two places, ruptured her eardrum, and has been in ICU; my friend had no idea that this would happen, but her mother would have been alone when she fell and probably would have died without immediate medical care.  As it is, this may be the only time the great grandchild remembers seeing his great grandmother. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

 

What I am seeing is more along the lines of "Of course, those people shouldn't be together sharing a meal and taking a picture without a mask, but it is fine if I go get a haircut because I wear a mask, go first thing in the morning, I am careful, and I would look silly if I didn't get a haircut."  I haven't been to a large gathering, nor have I gotten a haircut.  Of the people I know that who have done either in the past few months, I don't think I can say that one is OK while the other is not.  

 

You don't see a HUGE risk difference between a masked hair cut first thing in the morning, where there are a total of 3 people in a freshly opened space that lasts 20 minutes and spending several hours unmasked in a place that many others have been breathing in all day, with large groups of people?

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

What I am seeing is more along the lines of "Of course, those people shouldn't be together sharing a meal and taking a picture without a mask, but it is fine if I go get a haircut because I wear a mask, go first thing in the morning, I am careful, and I would look silly if I didn't get a haircut."  I haven't been to a large gathering, nor have I gotten a haircut.  Of the people I know that who have done either in the past few months, I don't think I can say that one is OK while the other is not.  

 

 

 

If you see a large, unmasked gathering as the same level of risk as a haircut when both people are wearing masks, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I also haven't done either, but I think they have vastly different levels of risk.

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You don't see a HUGE risk difference between a masked hair cut first thing in the morning, where there are a total of 3 people in a freshly opened space that lasts 20 minutes and spending several hours unmasked in a place that many others have been breathing in all day, with large groups of people?

It depends upon whether you are asking about the risk to the individual of catching COVID, or the risk to the broader community.  The person saying that they are getting a masked hair cut first thing in the morning is not taking into consideration everyone else throughout the day.  If the discussion is risk to the community, the time of day that any one person gets a haircut is irrelevant. 

I also think that there are more benefits to society of families gathering, grandchildren seeing their grandparents, etc. than there is of someone getting a haircut.  

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It depends upon whether you are asking about the risk to the individual of catching COVID, or the risk to the broader community.  The person saying that they are getting a masked hair cut first thing in the morning is not taking into consideration everyone else throughout the day.  If the discussion is risk to the community, the time of day that any one person gets a haircut is irrelevant. 

I also think that there are more benefits to society of families gathering, grandchildren seeing their grandparents, etc. than there is of someone getting a haircut.  

There's evidence that haircuts with masks are not very risky at all: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

I agree that a LOT of people are doing the best they can with the information they have. A lot of other people are doing whatever they feel like doing and they honestly don't care who gets sick.

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, kokotg said:

There's evidence that haircuts with masks are not very risky at all: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

I agree that a LOT of people are doing the best they can with the information they have. A lot of other people are doing whatever they feel like doing and they honestly don't care who gets sick.

I do not think that is really evidence that haircuts with masks are not very risky.  If close to 70% of people with COVID do not infect another person, a situation in which two people did not pass it on is well within what would be expected.  The same type of evidence could be applied to many different situations--a classroom where one person has COVID and no one else gets it.  A church service, even without masks and distancing, where one person has COVID and no one else gets it.  

[Corraleno]

 

40 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It depends upon whether you are asking about the risk to the individual of catching COVID, or the risk to the broader community.  The person saying that they are getting a masked hair cut first thing in the morning is not taking into consideration everyone else throughout the day.  If the discussion is risk to the community, the time of day that any one person gets a haircut is irrelevant. 

I also think that there are more benefits to society of families gathering, grandchildren seeing their grandparents, etc. than there is of someone getting a haircut.  

Nearly 300,000 Americans over the age of 65 have died of covid — that's a lot of dead grandparents. if there are great "benefits to society" from grandchildren spending time with their grandparents, excusing behavior that is literally killing them off seems counterproductive.

My state is one of the strictest in the US when it comes to covid mitigation measures, and they have found little to no spread from hair salons, so they are allowed to operate within strict guidelines (masking, reduced capacity, hygiene, etc.). Large indoor gatherings are banned for a reason.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Corraleno

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

there were a whole lot of people blaming him for being fat, claiming that masks/distancing/etc. are useless and the real cause of severe illness and death from covid is "underlying conditions," so people with underlying conditions should "work on that" instead of infringing on other people's freedoms. 

Yes, this is what I am seeing the most. Also statements about how hypocritical it is for Americans to worry about Covid when the vast majority have unhealthy eating habits (the complainers are American). I can’t argue that the SAD is stellar, but not everyone eating it is unhealthy and not all unhealthy people eat a SAD.

[hopeallgoeswell]

7 hours ago, kokotg said:

There's evidence that haircuts with masks are not very risky at all: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

I agree that a LOT of people are doing the best they can with the information they have. A lot of other people are doing whatever they feel like doing and they honestly don't care who gets sick.

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I do not think that is really evidence that haircuts with masks are not very risky.  If close to 70% of people with COVID do not infect another person, a situation in which two people did not pass it on is well within what would be expected.  The same type of evidence could be applied to many different situations--a classroom where one person has COVID and no one else gets it.  A church service, even without masks and distancing, where one person has COVID and no one else gets it.  

I know a lot of people are pointing to this study to show that masks make interactions relatively safe or at least safe enough to continue leaving their houses and interacting with other humans indoors as long as all parties wear a face covering, but half of the clients were not even tested and the clients who were tested could have been positive but it was too early for the test to catch the infection.  Also, every client who was interviewed about mask wearing, which was only 104 out of the 139, self-reported their mask status; they could have felt pressured to say they wore one even if they didn't.  Why this hair stylist example is being used to illustrate masking indoors in close proximity is "not risky at all" is puzzling to me.  My husband, through work, knows just over 100 people who have been in close contact with a positive person where no one was wearing masks (spouse/kids/roommates) and most of that 100+ group had no symptoms. I guess I could use that to say that not masking indoors is not risky?  Is there is any paper or research on whether or not there is a significant increase in infection transmissions from get togethers as opposed to many single interactions in places like Walmart or a grocery store or a mall?  Or is it just an extrapolation of data?  Even people who are wearing face coverings are getting it.  Having any interaction outside of one's own home could result in transmission, masked or not.

 

From the paper:

Overall, 67 (48.2%) clients volunteered to be tested, and 72 (51.8%) refused; all 67 nasopharyngeal swab specimens tested negative for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR.

Also:

First, whereas the health department monitored all exposed clients for signs and symptoms of COVID-19, and no clients developed symptoms, only a subset was tested; thus, asymptomatic clients could have been missed. Similarly, with a viral incubation period of 2–14 days, any COVID-19 PCR tests obtained from clients too early in their course of infection could return false-negative results. To help mitigate this possibility, all exposed clients were offered testing on day 5 and were contacted daily to monitor for symptoms until day 14.

Edited January 6, 2021 by hopeallgoeswell

[ktgrok]

We know that longer exposure time is more risky than shorter exposure time. We know that masking is less risky than not masking. We know that exposure to fewer people is less risky than more people. Therefore, yeah, it's pretty clear that me spending 20 minutes, masked, in a room with 2 other people masked, every few months is much much much less risky than people in a crowd, unmasked for an hour or more especially when doing it on a regular basis. 

That's lower risk for society as well as my own personal risk. 

Also, a LOT of people are still working - via zoom or in person - and if they have short hair they do not look professional at all without a haircut every 2 months. If you have long hair, or a bob or something simple, going without a haircut for a year or more isn't a huge deal, or it is easy to cut at home yourself. I've been cutting my daughter's hair myself this whole time. I tried cutting my own pixie cut at the beginning of the pandemic....it did not go well. At all. So yes, twice I've gone in at the first appointment. I'd honestly love a pedicure too, it was my one spluge before Covid, and I may need a farrier rather than a pedicure by the end, but those are 45 minutes, and that greatly increases the risk, and the nail salons have more people in the room at once, so I won't. 

For stuff that is a bit more risk, I think we are all cutting each other some slack. But I don't see how that makes unmasked, hours long parties acceptable, nor people knowingly refusing to quarantine when exposed. 

[kokotg]

Really wasn't expecting this to turn into a debate about whether a short, isolated interaction with one other person in which both parties are masked is just as dangerous as a large indoor gathering for hours with dozens or hundreds of unmasked people. 

Yes, there is some risk with any interaction with another human being (and maybe also tigers and pigs and dogs). I believe there is ample evidence that short, masked interactions are much, much safer than long, unmasked interactions. 

[SKL]

One thing I keep wondering ... how many "memory" posts are being re-posted and earning ire?  I have, over the past year, re-posted a variety of photos that bring back memories of when my kids could freely associate with their friends.  Maybe people don't read closely and think, "SKL is trying to kill people!  She just doesn't care!  Selfish!  Stupid!  Unfriend!"

I did have one socially-distanced outdoor party in July, but I was afraid to post any photos, because some of the teens wouldn't follow the rules.  I didn't want to go on record with that, at least not until all this blows over.  (Nobody got sick there, FTR.)

 

I also think it's very possible that people are getting close and removing masks just for a quick photo.  If so, that's a very low-risk action.

Edited January 6, 2021 by SKL

[Pawz4me]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

One thing I keep wondering ... how many "memory" posts are being re-posted and earning ire?  I have, over the past year, re-posted a variety of photos that bring back memories of when my kids could freely associate with their friends.  Maybe people don't read closely and think, "SKL is trying to kill people!  She just doesn't care!  Selfish!  Stupid!  Unfriend!"

 

Trust me--the things I complained about people doing all occurred since the first week of December. They were busy making new memories, not sharing old ones. I suspect we all know what our family and close friends are doing.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Also, a LOT of people are still working - via zoom or in person - and if they have short hair they do not look professional at all without a haircut every 2 months. If you have long hair, or a bob or something simple, going without a haircut for a year or more isn't a huge deal, or it is easy to cut at home yourself. I've been cutting my daughter's hair myself this whole time. I tried cutting my own pixie cut at the beginning of the pandemic....it did not go well. At all. So yes, twice I've gone in at the first appointment. I'd honestly love a pedicure too, it was my one spluge before Covid, and I may need a farrier rather than a pedicure by the end, but those are 45 minutes, and that greatly increases the risk, and the nail salons have more people in the room at once, so I won't. 

 

Yes, I am working in a professional setting.  Last February I got my hair cut in a shorter, harder to maintain haircut deciding that now that my kids were grown I had the time and money to splurge on getting my hair done more often.  I have extremely think, difficult to manage hair and I am extremely bad I handling hair.  When DD was in preschool I trimmed her hair and the next day the teacher said "I see Mary got a hold of the scissors last night"--I had to tell her it wasn't Mary: I was the one that trimmed her hair.   I have managed through all of my professional meetings since February without getting my haircut.  

I have chosen not to get a haircut.  In my opinion, a hair cut is a want, not a need. I am not angry or upset with anyone who has.  Personally, I think the risk is small, but positive, and any positive risk is risk not just to me, but risk to my community.  To me, getting my hair cut would be taking some risk when the benefit would solely be about me and my physical appearance.  That is my personal judgment of the risk/benefit tradeoff; I realize that my personal judgment of that tradeoff and the line I draw will be different than other people.  And I realize that I have made decisions that, to other people, would not be worth the risk/benefit tradeoff.  Because we live in a community, all of these individual decisions impact the community--not simply the ones I don't agree with.  

[ktgrok]

I try to assume unmasked selfies are brief, momentary things maybe holding their breath. Bettr to assume the best. But when it is a party at an indoor restaurant with people eating and drinking and none of them in masks, in the photo or in the background, or a bowling alley indoors with a dozen people moving around and none masked, or an indoor party where you know from a family member no one was masked....yeah. 

As for less risky stuff, sure we all have our own line. For me, a hair cut for 20 minutes in a room with two people, masked, is within my risk level given I otherwise either have to shave my head or look like Bozo the clown. For others it isn't. For some, a manicure is worth it, for me it isn't. But these are not activities that are specifically mentioned in medical guidelines. Our health department says to wear a mask, to avoid crowds or large gatherings. Those are the things I'm concerned about. 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Also, a LOT of people are still working - via zoom or in person - and if they have short hair they do not look professional at all without a haircut every 2 months.

What line of work are you in that this is an issue?
I had a super short cut, and my last hair cut was January 2020. I teach, both in person and on Zoom. I find that, for in person, mask and face shield make it rather difficult to look polished and detract very much from a person's hair, and the Zoom video quality forgives many sins. The people using virtual backgrounds look like they've been cut out with kindergarten scissors.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What line of work are you in that this is an issue?
I had a super short cut, and my last hair cut was January 2020. I teach, both in person and on Zoom. I find that, for in person, mask and face shield make it rather difficult to look polished and detract very much from a person's hair, and the Zoom video quality forgives many sins. The people using virtual backgrounds look like they've been cut out with kindergarten scissors.

Its not for me - it is an issue for my son. He has very thick hair like mine, and as it grows out it grows OUT - as in sticking out to the sides, looks like bozo the clown. Mine is pure mental health/vanity - seeing myself look like bozo is incredibly disheartening when I'm already dealing with depression an self image issues. But I can see and understand others judging me for that. My son can't go to work looking like that though - he works in person at a veterinary clinic talking to clients all day. Looking professional/clean/well kempt is important in most medical fields. 

[wathe]

I think there must be an element of local culture with the hair thing.  In my professional circles, "covid hair" is totally an acceptable thing.  Clean and combed is enough - doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial advisors etc. 

Personally, I've embraced the scrub cap.  Pre-covid times, a scrub cap on emergency dept personel would have been quite unusual.  Now it's de rigueur.  I think I'll keep it for a long time to come - I like not having to worry about my hair while at work.

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I try to assume unmasked selfies are brief, momentary things maybe holding their breath. Bettr to assume the best. But when it is a party at an indoor restaurant with people eating and drinking and none of them in masks, in the photo or in the background, or a bowling alley indoors with a dozen people moving around and none masked, or an indoor party where you know from a family member no one was masked....yeah. 

As for less risky stuff, sure we all have our own line. For me, a hair cut for 20 minutes in a room with two people, masked, is within my risk level given I otherwise either have to shave my head or look like Bozo the clown. For others it isn't. For some, a manicure is worth it, for me it isn't. But these are not activities that are specifically mentioned in medical guidelines. Our health department says to wear a mask, to avoid crowds or large gatherings. Those are the things I'm concerned about. 

I keep hearing people complaining about eating in a restaurant (or other place set up for eating) without a mask.  That is fully in accordance with guidelines, not to mention obvious common sense.   The thing is to be careful whom you sit with and stay 6' away from everyone else (other than while briefly passing / masking).  In a photo, it can look like it's a whole room full of people not giving a damn, but that can be deceiving.  Restaurants, banquet halls, etc. are set up so that a fair number of people can eat safely at the same time.

Last I heard, the spread of Covid via sit-down dining is pretty low.

[scholastica]

 

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I keep hearing people complaining about eating in a restaurant (or other place set up for eating) without a mask.  That is fully in accordance with guidelines, not to mention obvious common sense.   The thing is to be careful whom you sit with and stay 6' away from everyone else (other than while briefly passing / masking).  In a photo, it can look like it's a whole room full of people not giving a damn, but that can be deceiving.  Restaurants, banquet halls, etc. are set up so that a fair number of people can eat safely at the same time.

Last I heard, the spread of Covid via sit-down dining is pretty low.

Do you typically sit 6 feet away from dining companions? I have never experienced that. I think it would be difficult to enjoy a conversation that way. Unless people are only dining with people in their own household, they are going to be unmasked within 6 feet of others for more than 15 minutes. That’s the standard.  So a group of 10 people in a restaurant who don’t all live together is a high risk. 
 

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think there must be an element of local culture with the hair thing.  In my professional circles, "covid hair" is totally an acceptable thing.  Clean and combed is enough - doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial advisors etc. 

Personally, I've embraced the scrub cap.  Pre-covid times, a scrub cap on emergency dept personel would have been quite unusual.  Now it's de rigueur.  I think I'll keep it for a long time to come - I like not having to worry about my hair while at work.

This is what I've seen as well.  I work with professionals, and everyone is fully aware of why people aren't keeping their haircuts up to date.  Nobody cares.

The last place I'd care about hair would be at the vet.  The man bun would work fine at my vet.  (Our male receptionist in a health insurance company managed to carry off a man bun back in 1994, even without a pandemic.)

Getting a haircut in 2020/21 is a choice.  My hair is quite scraggly on a good day.  I waited a long time for a haircut, like 10 months, and finally got one right before the election (I worked at the polls).  I got the cut because I wanted it.  With both of us masking and the whole process taking less than 15 minutes, it was safe enough.  But regardless - it is a want, not a need.  I don't judge it, but those who choose to judge others should at least be honest with themselves.

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, scholastica said:

 

Do you typically sit 6 feet away from dining companions? I have never experienced that. I think it would be difficult to enjoy a conversation that way. Unless people are only dining with people in their own household, they are going to be unmasked within 6 feet of others for more than 15 minutes. That’s the standard.  So a group of 10 people in a restaurant who don’t all live together is a high risk. 
 

No, I sit with the people in my household, and the people at the next distanced table do the same, and so on.

So far, during the pandemic (excluding the time when dining rooms were closed), I have gone to restaurants about once a week, always just with the people I live with.  You wouldn't know we were housemates, as we come from 5 different biological heritages, but that's why people shouldn't judge based on what they see.

I think it's fine to choose to eat with someone you don't live with, on occasion, after weighing the risk, the same way you'd weigh the risk of visiting with them.  The risk is likely higher than 0%, although maybe not, if, for example, it's your parents who never see anyone but you, or the family you're "podding" with, or people who just got over Covid last month.  Again, best not to judge just based on what you see.

Edited January 6, 2021 by SKL

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, scholastica said:

 

Do you typically sit 6 feet away from dining companions? I have never experienced that. I think it would be difficult to enjoy a conversation that way. Unless people are only dining with people in their own household, they are going to be unmasked within 6 feet of others for more than 15 minutes. That’s the standard.  So a group of 10 people in a restaurant who don’t all live together is a high risk. 
 

This. When it is a group of people who flew into town for the holidays and decided to all get together for a meal or drinks and are showing a table of 10 or so people, from separate households and in many cases I'm seeing from separate states,  all unmasked, that's not within standard guidelines. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

This. When it is a group of people who flew into town for the holidays and decided to all get together for a meal or drinks and are showing a table of 10 or so people, from separate households and in many cases I'm seeing from separate states,  all unmasked, that's not within standard guidelines. 

Eating unmasked is definitely within guidelines.

Again, how you choose whom you eat with is another question.  I just don't understand why I keep seeing people commenting on unmasked eating.  Of course it is unmasked.

And if it's less than 15 minutes within 6' ... which it may be for all you can tell in a snapshot - then that's not considered "close contact" for Covid purposes, by the CDC, regardless of whether the people are masked.

Edited January 6, 2021 by SKL

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

This is what I've seen as well.  I work with professionals, and everyone is fully aware of why people aren't keeping their haircuts up to date.  Nobody cares.

The last place I'd care about hair would be at the vet.  The man bun would work fine at my vet.  (Our male receptionist in a health insurance company managed to carry off a man bun back in 1994, even without a pandemic.)

Getting a haircut in 2020/21 is a choice.  My hair is quite scraggly on a good day.  I waited a long time for a haircut, like 10 months, and finally got one right before the election (I worked at the polls).  I got the cut because I wanted it.  With both of us masking and the whole process taking less than 15 minutes, it was safe enough.  But regardless - it is a want, not a need.  I don't judge it, but those who choose to judge others should at least be honest with themselves.

If it was long enough for a bun he or I'd be fine. But the longer length that say, would look like a short bob on a normal person goes out and all scraggly on us. He literally looks shaggy and ungroomed no matter what he does with it at that length. But yes, it was a risk and we admit that. But we minimized as much as possible, and didn't go when positivity rate was up at it's highest (that is when we attempted the at home cut...with um...interesting results, lol)If they go back up like they were I'll likely just shave it off/buzz it. 

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

No, I sit with the people in my household, and the people at the next distanced table do the same, and so on.

.

Oh, that's not what I'm talking about at all. I know these people (hence being facebook friends). I know that they are not living together, podding together, etc.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Eating unmasked is definitely within guidelines.

Again, how you choose whom you eat with is another question.  I just don't understand why I keep seeing people commenting on unmasked eating.  Of course it is unmasked.

And if it's less than 15 minutes within 6' ... which it may be for all you can tell in a snapshot - then that's not considered "close contact" for Covid purposes, by the CDC, regardless of whether the people are masked.

Again, I was commenting on large get togethers, of unrelated people. Parties, etc. 

[Not_a_Number]

I don't really care what the guidelines say. Indoor restaurants are an easy source of spread, because you're unmasked when eating -- you have to be. 

The guidelines aren't "best practice," anyway -- they are what the CDC thinks is actually feasible, with a mix of "what about the economy??" thrown in. But by now, we all ought to know that indoor unmasked gatherings are dangerous, and that includes restaurants. 

Oh, and 6 feet isn't a magic number. It's really easy to spread the virus in a restaurant setting, because it's AIRBORNE.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

If it was long enough for a bun he or I'd be fine. But the longer length that say, would look like a short bob on a normal person goes out and all scraggly on us. He literally looks shaggy and ungroomed no matter what he does with it at that length. But yes, it was a risk and we admit that. But we minimized as much as possible, and didn't go when positivity rate was up at it's highest (that is when we attempted the at home cut...with um...interesting results, lol)If they go back up like they were I'll likely just shave it off/buzz it.

It's a choice, just like mine was.  Being scraggly is the sacrifice many people are making for the greater good.  The idea that your young adult son who works for a vet is an exception is ... seriously ... just own it.