The Vaccine Thread

[ktgrok]

23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

44 yr old Australian man hospitalized with blood clots and low platelet count after AZ vaccine:

"The man received the AstraZeneca vaccine on or around March 22 and was admitted to hospital with serious thrombosis and a low platelet count. He had low platelets, but he had clots in his liver, in his spleen and in his gut in general," Coronacast host Dr Norman Swan told ABC News. "So, he fits the description of vaccine-induced pro-thrombotic thrombocytopenia. He fits the case description."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-02/man-who-received-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-has-blood-clots/100046540

At least in animals, this is a known but rare thing that can happen after a vaccine (or I think illness as well). An autoimmune reaction. I saw maybe 4 confirmed cases in 20 yrs in veterinary medicine?

[popmom]

I just got an appointment with Walmart to get the vaccine. One of the questions it asked when I was registering was whether I have taken antivirals for longer than 2 weeks. I’m on an antiviral for CFS/ME. Anybody know anything about this? Is this something I should be concerned about? I’ll call the prescribing doctor about it tomorrow, but I really don’t anticipate that he will know anything about it. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by popmom

[mlktwins]

I just got my 1st dose of Pfizer and go back in 3 weeks for my 2nd dose.  Do we just enjoy what time we have that is known to work (6 months I think) and then possibly be back at square 1 after that period of time?  My boys will be on a different timeline than DH and I because they aren't 16 until the end of June.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I just got my 1st dose of Pfizer and go back in 3 weeks for my 2nd dose.  Do we just enjoy what time we have that is known to work (6 months I think) and then possibly be back at square 1 after that period of time?  My boys will be on a different timeline than DH and I because they aren't 16 until the end of June.

Timeline is AT LEAST 6 months...my understanding is the antibody results were remarkably good at th 6 month mark - more than expected, so immunity should last quite a while. 

[ktgrok]

Found this on how long...the president of the American Medical Association is hopeful that immunity may be very long lasting and that if we need boosters it will be for newer variants that come up. So far though the vaccines work well on the variants we know about. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-from-covid-19-vaccination-last#Protection-lasts-for-at-least-6-months,-likely-longer

Edited April 6, 2021 by ktgrok

[Kassia]

33 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

DH and I getting our first shot tomorrow. I am so excited, I feel silly. But it's finally our turn and I am impatient for it to happen. 😊

The night before my first shot I was so excited that I kept waking up thinking, "today is the day!" and would look at the clock but it was still before midnight.  😛  Good luck!

[vonfirmath]

Ugh. There was evidently a problem with early batchs of the Pfizer COVID-19 commercial vaccine that may mean it won't protect as well against COVID-19 as in the tests.

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/91590

 

[catz]

My 16 year old is getting the Pfizer tomorrow!  She will be first in the family, my DH and I have appointments at local clinics in a couple weeks (also most likely Pfizer).  It is just hard to get appointments for 16 year olds, so we are road tripping a  bit for her for a big rural clinic that had hundreds of appointments open.   I considered changing mine, but decided to just leave it and let her have her day lol.  

I hope they are able to identify the people who got less effective vaccines!  

[vonfirmath]

Here's an idea: Delay vaccinating US children.  Send the vaccines overseas to vulnerable populations in less wealthy countries:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/91972?xid=nl_vanayprasad_2021-04-07&eun=g1709400d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VinayPrasad_040721&utm_term=NL_Gen_Int_Vinay_AYWDRL_Small_Active

 

(I've always figured charities would get involved in sending vaccines overseas. Not sure I'm as enthused about the US government doing it. But this article does make sense that it needs to be done sooner than when our country is 100% done. Though I definitely know some families would not want to wait)

 

[Penelope]

3 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Here's an idea: Delay vaccinating US children.  Send the vaccines overseas to vulnerable populations in less wealthy countries:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/91972?xid=nl_vanayprasad_2021-04-07&eun=g1709400d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VinayPrasad_040721&utm_term=NL_Gen_Int_Vinay_AYWDRL_Small_Active

 

(I've always figured charities would get involved in sending vaccines overseas. Not sure I'm as enthused about the US government doing it. But this article does make sense that it needs to be done sooner than when our country is 100% done. Though I definitely know some families would not want to wait)

 

My heart says that this is right thing to do. It’s not going to happen, but it makes sense for all kind of reasons.

Its tricky. I would want parents of very high-risk to have the option here first under an EUA. 
But I definitely think we should worry about massive disease and deaths in adults in low income countries before we mass vaccinate children here.

[Bootsie]

U.K. Limits AstraZeneca Covid-19 Vaccine to Over-30s Amid Blood-Clot Concerns - WSJ

It appears that a link between blood clots and the AstraZeneca vaccine is plausible

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

This is why I have hope that humans can prevail. It sounds rather naive. But we were able to do this within a year. I admit to having doubts, about the process, lack of trust but today, my heart is thankful at the selflessness of people who made this possible. The brave volunteers who played a part in human trials with all the unknowns,  the scientists and every single unseen person involved in this process.

I can finally get to see my family soon which was not a possibility a year ago.

Today has been a very good day.

All this! It is TRULY super incredible amazing to have such an incredible array of vaccines this quickly. So many people worked SO hard to make this happen and I'm beyond grateful. And because of their hard work, I can hug my mom. I can pick up groceries and not worry I'm bringing home the virus to my kid with autoimmune diseases.There are no words to express how awesome that is and how grateful I am. 

I am not ashamed to say I cried when I got my first vaccine. I actually called the nurse who gave it an angel, and said she and everyone there are doing God's work. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Bootsie said:

U.K. Limits AstraZeneca Covid-19 Vaccine to Over-30s Amid Blood-Clot Concerns - WSJ

It appears that a link between blood clots and the AstraZeneca vaccine is plausible

Yes, I wish I'd waited to have it. Am unsure what to do about my second dose - the cost/benefit is complicated for me by the fact I'm high risk in theory but we currently have zero community transmission. 

 

 

[Corraleno]

18 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Ugh. There was evidently a problem with early batchs of the Pfizer COVID-19 commercial vaccine that may mean it won't protect as well against COVID-19 as in the tests.

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/91590

 

FWIW, the emails talking about suboptimal doses were from November of last year and they said the issue was resolved by December, so it doesn't sound like it would have affected many (if any) people who were vaccinated in the US, and certainly not anyone who got their shot in 2021.

[Laura Corin]

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I wish I'd waited to have it. Am unsure what to do about my second dose - the cost/benefit is complicated for me by the fact I'm high risk in theory but we currently have zero community transmission.

It is difficult, but the risk of complications, even if proven, is still incredibly low, and we really don't know about future Covid spread.  I would be concerned that if I didn't get fully vaccinated then there would be no time for a booster to be effective if there was suddenly a wave.  I'll be getting my second.

[Ausmumof3]

Australia is no longer recommending Astra Zeneca for under 50s unless patients gp decides the risk outweighs benefits.  This is likely to delay things a lot here as the facility built has been set up to manufacture Astra Zeneca under license and potentially won’t be of use.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

It is difficult, but the risk of complications, even if proven, is still incredibly low, and we really don't know about future Covid spread.  I would be concerned that if I didn't get fully vaccinated then there would be no time for a booster to be effective if there was suddenly a wave.  I'll be getting my second.

If I was in the UK, I'd be doing the same. It's harder when the risk from Covid is (currently) theoretical.

I have a good handle on actual risk - tiny. I'm quite bothered by the quick change in messaging here where I am, from 'nothing to see here' to 'likely link' and feel it's that as much as anything that's dented my confidence in the approvals process. 

I do wish I'd waited, given our lack of community transmission. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Australia is no longer recommending Astra Zeneca for under 50s unless patients gp decides the risk outweighs benefits.  This is likely to delay things a lot here as the facility built has been set up to manufacture Astra Zeneca under license and potentially won’t be of use.  

I think the roll out over 50 should have paused earlier, given EU concerns now strengthened.  I'd still have been eligible in 1b, but could have made a more informed choice re waiting. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

22 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

If I was in the UK, I'd be doing the same. It's harder when the risk from Covid is (currently) theoretical.

I have a good handle on actual risk - tiny. I'm quite bothered by the quick change in messaging here where I am, from 'nothing to see here' to 'likely link' and feel it's that as much as anything that's dented my confidence in the approvals process. 

I do wish I'd waited, given our lack of community transmission. 

I think because it almost seems like an overreaction I tend to start speculating that there’s more to it than is public knowledge.  Giving it some thought though I suspect they know if anyone has the blood clot issue and does die in Australia they will have a huge obstacle to vaccine uptake.  And it’s pretty likely given incidence is 4 in a million with approx 25pc fatality rate that there would be a couple.  Plus I guess it seems kind of morally bankrupt to roll it out knowing that will happen when there’s a viable alternative.  Though to be honest I didn’t expect that to feature in the decision making process 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I wish I'd waited to have it. Am unsure what to do about my second dose - the cost/benefit is complicated for me by the fact I'm high risk in theory but we currently have zero community transmission. 

 

 

The current recommendation is still to complete the second dose if you’ve had the first one although that’s obviously subject to change and to be decided with your Gp.  On the other hand some European countries are recommending doing a second dose with Pfizer (combination is currently untested), while others are recommending completing the dose on the theory that if you were ok after the first dose you’ll be ok.   I can’t remember when you had yours but was it fairly recent?  Hopefully by the time the three month gap is up we will have a clearer picture.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think because it almost seems like an overreaction I tend to start speculating that there’s more to it than is public knowledge.  Giving it some thought though I suspect they know if anyone has the blood clot issue and does die in Australia they will have a huge obstacle to vaccine uptake.  And it’s pretty likely given incidence is 4 in a million with approx 25pc fatality rate that there would be a couple.  Plus I guess it seems kind of morally bankrupt to roll it out knowing that will happen when there’s a viable alternative.  Though to be honest I didn’t expect that to feature in the decision making process 😞 

Yes, I mean, I guess a lot of public health is like this - we do what's right at a population level, and that often involves some element of risk to individuals. 

I think some pollies need to rock up for an AZ shot if they want the rest of us to accept the (tiny but real) risk for the common good. No more Pfizer for government.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The current recommendation is still to complete the second dose if you’ve had the first one although that’s obviously subject to change and to be decided with your Gp.  On the other hand some European countries are recommending doing a second dose with Pfizer (combination is currently untested), while others are recommending completing the dose on the theory that if you were ok after the first dose you’ll be ok.   I can’t remember when you had yours but was it fairly recent?  Hopefully by the time the three month gap is up we will have a clearer picture.

Only 10 days ago. Mostly not thinking about it, but I'll be glad when it's a month behind me.

Pretty sure we won't be getting our hands on more Pfizer any time soon. Whispers of Novovax, though I don't know anything about that vaccine. 

[Ausmumof3]

46 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I mean, I guess a lot of public health is like this - we do what's right at a population level, and that often involves some element of risk to individuals. 

I think some pollies need to rock up for an AZ shot if they want the rest of us to accept the (tiny but real) risk for the common good. No more Pfizer for government.

 

I think on the press conference 2 of the health people said they have had the first astra Zeneca and will be getting the second one.  It seems from now on that it’s going to be Astra Zeneca for the old and Pfizer for the young.  Except of course we won’t be getting much Pfizer so I guess it’s closed border for longer.  

[Laura Corin]

55 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think because it almost seems like an overreaction I tend to start speculating that there’s more to it than is public knowledge. 

I think that the reaction in the EU and the UK is an attempt to bolster public confidence by making it clear that even tiny possible risks are being taken seriously.

[Melissa Louise]

21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think on the press conference 2 of the health people said they have had the first astra Zeneca and will be getting the second one.  It seems from now on that it’s going to be Astra Zeneca for the old and Pfizer for the young.  Except of course we won’t be getting much Pfizer so I guess it’s closed border for longer.  

Oy, less of the old thanks! 🤣

[Ausmumof3]

18 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I think that the reaction in the EU and the UK is an attempt to bolster public confidence by making it clear that even tiny possible risks are being taken seriously.

Yes exactly!  It does bother me a little that the UK did not identify any cases till Europe started reporting them. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Oy, less of the old thanks! 🤣

Lol not saying you are the old 😂😂😂. Sorry!  

[Ausmumof3]

I haven’t verified this yet but I think it’s interesting.  Even in the 40-50 group it seems like benefits outweighs the risks at this point.  And in the 30-39 though less clearly.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ausmumof3

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I haven’t verified this yet but I think it’s interesting.  Even in the 40-50 group it seems like benefits outweighs the risks at this point.

Yes, probably right. And that’s leaving out long COVID.

That being said, I’d still be nervous.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-on-astrazeneca-vaccine-in-response-to-new-vaccine-safety-concerns
 

official statement from ATAGI here.  

[Ausmumof3]

pretty accurate summary of the current situation 😬

I wonder if they regret shelving the hiv positive test one so quickly...

[mommyoffive]

On 4/4/2021 at 6:42 PM, popmom said:

I just got an appointment with Walmart to get the vaccine. One of the questions it asked when I was registering was whether I have taken antivirals for longer than 2 weeks. I’m on an antiviral for CFS/ME. Anybody know anything about this? Is this something I should be concerned about? I’ll call the prescribing doctor about it tomorrow, but I really don’t anticipate that he will know anything about it. 

Did you find anything else about this?  I haven't seen anything about it. 

[mommyoffive]

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky anticipates that all schools will be fully in person and no longer remote in September 2021.

Asked when she expects children will become eligible to get vaccinated, Walensky said by mid-May. Pfizer recently released promising data indicating its vaccine is safe and effective for children ages 12 to 15.

Asked when she expects children will become eligible to get vaccinated, Walensky said by mid-May. Pfizer recently released promising data indicating its vaccine is safe and effective for children ages 12 to 15.

 

"Mid-May maybe we'll be able to have a vaccine from Pfizer that we'll be able to do down to 12," she said, pending Food and Drug Administration authorization for that age group.

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky expects all schools will be fully open for in-person learning in September - ABC News (go.com)

Edited April 8, 2021 by mommyoffive

[TCB]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes exactly!  It does bother me a little that the UK did not identify any cases till Europe started reporting them. 

It could possibly be because of the age thing. It would be good to know when the cases occurred in the UK. Germany etc would not give it to older people initially so may have been giving it to the younger age group where the problems seem to be. The UK started their vaccination campaign mostly with older people and have worked down the age groups. My 54 year old brother just got his first dose last week. 

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, TCB said:

It could possibly be because of the age thing. It would be good to know when the cases occurred in the UK. Germany etc would not give it to older people initially so may have been giving it to the younger age group where the problems seem to be. The UK started their vaccination campaign mostly with older people and have worked down the age groups. My 54 year old brother just got his first dose last week. 

Hmm good point!  I wonder if that’s a factor.  There’s no definite confirmation that the problem is only in younger people yet as far as I know but seems to be a pattern.

[Laura Corin]

12 minutes ago, TCB said:

It could possibly be because of the age thing. It would be good to know when the cases occurred in the UK. Germany etc would not give it to older people initially so may have been giving it to the younger age group where the problems seem to be. The UK started their vaccination campaign mostly with older people and have worked down the age groups. My 54 year old brother just got his first dose last week. 

That makes sense. The cohorts have been strict and are heavily weighted towards older people.

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Hmm good point!  I wonder if that’s a factor.  There’s no definite confirmation that the problem is only in younger people yet as far as I know but seems to be a pattern.

I think the age of the oldest case in the UK so far was around 60, but not 100% sure on that.

[Roadrunner]

I got my second doze of Moderna. I want to break out into the 💃 
 

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Hmm good point!  I wonder if that’s a factor.  There’s no definite confirmation that the problem is only in younger people yet as far as I know but seems to be a pattern.

It seems to be some kind of autoimmune reaction, right? And younger people have stronger immune reactions, and more likely to have an autoimmune reaction, than older people as a general rule. The only human I've known to have a clotting autoimmune problem as a teenager, in fact. (seen it in several dogs, all younger as well)

[Laura Corin]

BBC News - Covid: Blood clot victim's sister urges people to get AstraZeneca vaccine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56675665

[Melissa Louise]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

pretty accurate summary of the current situation 😬

I wonder if they regret shelving the hiv positive test one so quickly...

I bet they do. 

Actually, no, I bet they are so busy spinning this they've convinced themselves it's all under control. I momentarily forgot what this government is like. 

We are going to end up in a bizarre position, also, where younger, fitter people have the better vaccine (if they do get vaccinated).

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Corraleno]

12 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Australia is no longer recommending Astra Zeneca for under 50s unless patients gp decides the risk outweighs benefits.  This is likely to delay things a lot here as the facility built has been set up to manufacture Astra Zeneca under license and potentially won’t be of use.  

I wonder if they can use that facility for J&J instead? AZ and J&J are the same type of vaccine (adenovirus vector), and they were both being manufactured in the same facility here in the US (until idiots mixed up the ingredients). But I would think any facility that can manufacture AZ could also make J&J. It's not Pfizer, but at least there don't seem to be any issues with blood clots.

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder if they can use that facility for J&J instead? AZ and J&J are the same type of vaccine (adenovirus vector), and they were both being manufactured in the same facility here in the US (until idiots mixed up the ingredients). But I would think any facility that can manufacture AZ could also make J&J. It's not Pfizer, but at least there don't seem to be any issues with blood clots.

That would be great if it worked.
 

At the moment they are talking about Novovax which I don’t know much about so I might do some more reading about that.  Johnson and Johnson wasn’t mentioned.  

Norman Swan did say last week before this became official that it would probably be theoretically possible to manufacture Pfizer there but would take a bit more effort.  
 

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

At the moment they are talking about Novovax which I don’t know much about so I might do some more reading about that.

Novavax's vaccine is really interesting, the technology is totally different from all the other covid vaccines. Instead of inducing the body to manufacture the spike protein, they grow the spike protein in moth cells, assemble the proteins in packages, and inject them. Efficacy is close to Pfizer and Moderna, but it can be stored at regular temperatures like J&J.

The NY Times has a good (but technical) explanation of how it works:
 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/novavax-covid-19-vaccine.html

Good video explaining the technology in basic terms:

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Corraleno

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Novavax's vaccine is really interesting, the technology is totally different from all the other vaccines. Instead of inducing the body to manufacture the spike protein, they grow the spike protein in moth larvae, assemble the proteins in packages, and inject them. Efficacy is close to Pfizer and Moderna, but it can be stored at regular temperatures like J&J.

The NY Times has a good explanation of how it works here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/novavax-covid-19-vaccine.html

Is that what’s called molecular clamp?  Or am I confused. 

Edited to add - looks like that is a no.  It’s a different technology 

Does that mean moth larvae will be in high demand?  

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/slow-vaccine-negotiations-health-with-dr-norman-swan/13294894
 

Good interview with Norman Swan here.

Points of interest 

- yes we probably canned the UQ vaccine too soon instead of redesigning the HIV test

- negotiations with Pfizer only happened in November - uk and US were in July

- the reason we don’t have contracts with J&J and Moderna is because we won’t give them indemnity 

- supply issues will be compounded by the fact that not just Australia but many countries will now be trying to increase the supply of alternative vaccines 

- If you’ve had the first dose you should have the second because the evidence indicates the issue will show up the first time if there’s a problem

[KungFuPanda]

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder if they can use that facility for J&J instead? AZ and J&J are the same type of vaccine (adenovirus vector), and they were both being manufactured in the same facility here in the US (until idiots mixed up the ingredients). But I would think any facility that can manufacture AZ could also make J&J. It's not Pfizer, but at least there don't seem to be any issues with blood clots.

I was today years old when I learned that the Astra Zenica vaccine and the J & J vaccine are made in the same facility in Baltimore.  I just assumed that since AZ wasn't an option for US vaccinations that it was a brand that was made elsewhere. 

[vonfirmath]

9 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I was today years old when I learned that the Astra Zenica vaccine and the J & J vaccine are made in the same facility in Baltimore.  I just assumed that since AZ wasn't an option for US vaccinations that it was a brand that was made elsewhere. 

Were. When they mixed up ingredients, they kicked out AZ and made it all J&J

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I was today years old when I learned that the Astra Zenica vaccine and the J & J vaccine are made in the same facility in Baltimore.  I just assumed that since AZ wasn't an option for US vaccinations that it was a brand that was made elsewhere. 

That was just one facility, AZ and J&J both have multiple other manufacturing facilities. I don't think any vaccines manufactured in the Baltimore plant have even been distributed in the US yet (due to ongoing issues with quality control there).

Fun fact: AZ has two manufacturing facilities in the UK and two in the EU and their contract with the EU said the EU would receive vaccines from all four plants. Then AZ told the EU that they would not even come close to delivering the number of doses they had contracted for, due to issues with one of the EU plants. The EU asked why they couldn't make up the difference with doses from the other 3 plants and discovered that the contract AZ had with the UK gave them exclusive rights to all the doses manufactured in the UK and the EU could only get them if the UK decided they didn't need them. And of course the UK decided they needed every dose, so the EU is super pissed off and accusing AZ of having purposely deceived them since their contract clearly states they would receive supplies from all four plants.

Then after the EU discovered they couldn't have any of the UK-manufactured vaccines, they tried to stop a shipment of AZ that was at a plant in Italy from leaving the EU, basically saying "two can play that game,." But AZ insisted that the doses in Italy weren't actually manufactured in Italy, they were made somewhere else (India, I think) and were only being bottled or something in Italy, so the EU had no right to hold them.

Crazy, huh?

[Ausmumof3]

So we apparently are getting an extra 20,000,000 doses of Pfizer in the last three months of the year.  Nsw has paused the AZ rollout for the day while updating consent information. 
 

Im assuming based on this that we most likely have closed international borders for 2021.