The Vaccine Thread

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, Penelope said:

JNJ/Janssen uses Ad26, different than Sputnik.

 

You're right, I should have said that those three are using human adenoviruses, versus AZ and Walvax (China) which use chimp adenoviruses. J&J uses Ad26, CanSino uses Ad5, and Sputnik uses both — Ad26 for the first shot and Ad5 for the second. 

 

[Soror]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Vaccine approval for kids age 12-plus expected before May (wlwt.com)

Ya!!!!

The article says they are expecting it for early fall for 5-11. That is wonderful news at that hits the school age crowd by the start of school (except for preschool of course). 

Now when will govt open up vaccine to the 12+?

Edited April 15, 2021 by Soror

[mommyoffive]

2 hours ago, Soror said:

Ya!!!!

The article says they are expecting it for early fall for 5-11. That is wonderful news at that hits the school age crowd by the start of school (except for preschool of course). 

Now when will govt open up vaccine to the 12+?

Great news isn't it??  I hope that the 5-11 does happen by fall.  I had a hunch that it might move faster than they said, since everything else has.  But that would be a dream come true.  

The 12-15, with all the good news a few weeks ago I thought it would happen really quickly from what some people are reporting from the health depts and doctors.  They were telling them to put their kids on waitlists already to get it. 

I think they would open it right away unless they don't have supply.  But in my state it is open for everyone 16 and up and has been for 10 days I think?  So I don't see why they would hold it back unless it was a supply issue. 

Science is so great!  

[ktgrok]

Yes, kids being vaccinated is the key. Plus kids are the ones most effected by having to distance, wear a mask, etc. I can chat on social media with friends, my 4 yr old can't. And socially, my kids need to have friends around again. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Soror said:

Ya!!!!

The article says they are expecting it for early fall for 5-11. That is wonderful news at that hits the school age crowd by the start of school (except for preschool of course). 

Now when will govt open up vaccine to the 12+?

That would be SO GREAT. Both my kids are in that age range now.

[ktgrok]

As of yesterday the best I was hearing was "mid winter' for under 12. Hopefully sooner, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

As of yesterday the best I was hearing was "mid winter' for under 12. Hopefully sooner, but I'm not holding my breath. 

If the one for slightly older kids is coming so soon, I actually wouldn’t be surprised it the younger kids are earlier, too!!

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If the one for slightly older kids is coming so soon, I actually wouldn’t be surprised it the younger kids are earlier, too!!

Lets hope! I actually lit at candle this sunday at church praying for a vaccine for all kids ASAP. (my first time back since the pandemic started)

But I also lit a candle for my mom for healing, and since then she fell again, and broke her arm. So...might have been  a bad batch of candles, lol. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by ktgrok

[vonfirmath]

3 hours ago, Soror said:

Ya!!!!

The article says they are expecting it for early fall for 5-11. That is wonderful news at that hits the school age crowd by the start of school (except for preschool of course). 

Now when will govt open up vaccine to the 12+?

I don't know. Risk Vs Reward

Is is really worth it to be vaccinating younger kids vs the risk they face vs the risk older people face in many other countries of the world?  Why don't we turn outward instead of pushing vaccines down younger and younger.

[Not_a_Number]

21 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I don't know. Risk Vs Reward

Is is really worth it to be vaccinating younger kids vs the risk they face vs the risk older people face in many other countries of the world?  Why don't we turn outward instead of pushing vaccines down younger and younger.

I see your point, and maybe I’m selfish, but I’m too worried about long-term risk not to want to vaccinate my kids. Plus, we need it for here immunity, which protects us all.

[vonfirmath]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I see your point, and maybe I’m selfish, but I’m too worried about long-term risk not to want to vaccinate my kids. Plus, we need it for here immunity, which protects us all.

We will never have herd immunity as long as there are that many countries in the world without it.  Some of the variants concerning us NOW started in other countries (South Africa, Brazil. MAybe elsewhere we don't even know)

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by vonfirmath

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, vonfirmath said:

We will never have herd immunity as long as there are that many countries in the world without it.

I think we’ll be much safer in the US in the meantime, though.

This is definitely a very selfish perspective. I see that. I just want my kids to go back to activities again 😞 .

[bluemongoose]

I too want my kids back in their activities. 

I agree that other countries need vaccines.

If they made it so high risk families could have their kids vaccinated (I have 2 kids who need to not get COVID), that would be a start....

But then there is the problem of not knowing what COVID can do to the long term health of kids, even healthy ones. That might be bad too. 

I just don't think there is a great/easy solution. 

[Amira]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

I don't know. Risk Vs Reward

Is is really worth it to be vaccinating younger kids vs the risk they face vs the risk older people face in many other countries of the world?  Why don't we turn outward instead of pushing vaccines down younger and younger.

I agree with this 100%.  Honestly though, I've had to accept the fact that the US will never turn outward regarding vaccines until we feel like we've taken care of our own, so I've grudgingly taken to hoping things can move as quickly as possible in the US.

Hopefully, the US supply will be high enough soon that we can both vaccinate our own and remember that the world's health does affect the health of individual Americans.  But I wish things were different.

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Amira said:

 

Hopefully, the US supply will be high enough soon that we can both vaccinate our own and remember that the world's health does affect the health of individual Americans.  But I wish things were different.

CNN had a headline this morning that there might be as many as 300 million surplus doses in the US by July, so, yes, hopefully it won't be long.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Is is really worth it to be vaccinating younger kids vs the risk they face vs the risk older people face in many other countries of the world?  Why don't we turn outward instead of pushing vaccines down younger and younger.

The vaccines that will be available for kids this summer will be Pfizer and Moderna, and there's no way the US will be giving away the expensive mRNA vaccines. We have ordered a total of 600 million doses of those, which should be plenty to cover everyone in the US who wants a vaccine, including children, and assuming no supply issues we should have all of those doses by the end of July.

We ordered 200 million doses of J&J, so there should be plenty of that left over, but I would guess the US will hold onto that one for a while, to use with populations where a second dose can't be guaranteed. Also, if their 2-dose trial shows higher efficacy, we may need some for second shots for anyone who already had J&J. (Although the UK is currently running a trial on mix-&-match vaccine use, so it's possible that people who got a first J&J shot could get Pfizer or Moderna for a 2nd shot.)

We ordered 100 million doses of Novavax, although they are way behind schedule due to supply chain issues. If they are able to get an EUA and deliver a significant number of doses this summer, that could also free up some J&J for donation.

We also ordered 300 million doses of AZ, and it's extremely unlikely we will ever use those. I think we only have ~30 million doses on hand, but that could be distributed right away, and then we could donate the rest of the doses we are "owed" to the WHO's COVAX program for distribution in poor countries. We are supposedly giving 4 million doses of AZ to Canada & Mexico (assuming they still want them).

Edited April 15, 2021 by Corraleno

[vonfirmath]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

The vaccines that will be available for kids this summer will be Pfizer and Moderna, and there's no way the US will be giving away the expensive mRNA vaccines. We have ordered a total of 600 million doses of those, which should be plenty to cover everyone in the US who wants a vaccine, including children, and assuming no supply issues we should have all of those doses by the end of July.

We ordered 200 million doses of J&J, so there should also be plenty of that left over, but I would guess the US will hold onto that one for a while, to use with populations where a second dose can't be guaranteed. Also, if their 2-dose trial shows higher efficacy, we may need some of those doses for second shots for anyone who already had J&J. (Although the UK is currently running a trial on mix-&-match vaccine use, so it's possible that people who got a first J&J shot could get Pfizer or Moderna for a 2nd shot.)

We ordered 100 million doses of Novavax, although they are way behind schedule due to supply chain issues. If they are able to get an EUA and deliver a significant number of doses this summer, that could also free up some J&J for donation.

We also ordered 300 million doses of AZ, and it's extremely unlikely we will ever use those. I think we only have ~30 million doses on hand, but that could be distributed right away, and then we could donate the rest of the doses we are "owed" to the WHO's COVAX program for distribution in poor countries. We are supposedly giving 4 million doses of AZ to Canada & Mexico (assuming they still want them).

If we deem AZ and J&J unsuitable for use for our own populations, why do we think they are good enough for the other countries?

If the only vaccinations that are good enough are the mRNA then yes, we need to find a way to share those.

 

[Amira]

5 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

If we deem AZ and J&J unsuitable for use for our own populations, why do we think they are good enough for the other countries?

If the only vaccinations that are good enough are the mRNA then yes, we need to find a way to share those.

 

Yes. Even though it will cost us more money to do that. It’s worth it.

[ktgrok]

43 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

If we deem AZ and J&J unsuitable for use for our own populations, why do we think they are good enough for the other countries?

If the only vaccinations that are good enough are the mRNA then yes, we need to find a way to share those.

 

I agree, other than the logisitical issue of storage for those. I think where we can we should use the mRNA ones, no matter what country. But in some areas that may be very hard logistically, and an easier to store/transport one might be better than no vaccine. 

[wathe]

47 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 We are supposedly giving 4 million doses of AZ to Canada & Mexico (assuming they still want them).

Nitpicky but important detail wrt to Canada: Loan, not give.  To be repaid.

[vonfirmath]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I agree, other than the logisitical issue of storage for those. I think where we can we should use the mRNA ones, no matter what country. But in some areas that may be very hard logistically, and an easier to store/transport one might be better than no vaccine. 

This (and cost) is why I was so excited about Astro Zeneca. Because it has so many fewer challenges associated.

[wathe]

My understanding is that that AZ shipment to Mexico is also a loan, not a gift.

[TCB]

52 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

If we deem AZ and J&J unsuitable for use for our own populations, why do we think they are good enough for the other countries?

If the only vaccinations that are good enough are the mRNA then yes, we need to find a way to share those.

 

Well storage is a huge issue. Also so far the risk seems very minimal, and if we didn’t have any other options I don’t think we would be any where near as hesitant about the J&J and AZ vaccines.

[Amira]

The cold storage requirements have eased up considerably for the covid mRNA vaccines and it will be much easier now to get them to places with less-than-optimal infrastructure.  Plus, if more mRNA vaccines are coming online in the future for other diseases, it would be worth investing now to improve vaccine storage facilities all over the world. I am hopeful that there will be a new malaria vaccine available soon, and we’ll definitely need improved infrastructure for that if it requires cold temperature storage.

[Penelope]

I heard something recently, now can’t remember where, but it was someone who was knowledgeable about both pediatrics and vaccines. He was saying that there may be a much higher bar for allowing vaccine in under 12’s, that the difference in physiology and immune systems is much greater than the difference between teens and adults, and that there are more questions in considering whether to give to all children under EUA just after a safety trial in a few thousand children, that maybe we would want efficacy and maybe full approval.

So maybe an EUA would only be for high risk children. 

The other thing is that risk of transmission and disease seems to be lowest in under-12’s. 
It is just not worth any risk at all to me to give a vaccine for this to my young child. I want longer data and full approval, just like for everything else they’ve been vaccinated for. It’s got to be more compelling than just some antibody measurements in a few kids over a couple of months.
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It is just not worth any risk at all to me to give a vaccine for this to my young child. I want longer data and full approval, just like for everything else they’ve been vaccinated for. It’s got to be more compelling than just some antibody measurements in a few kids over a couple of months.

I can imagine thinking this way if numbers are really low. But if numbers are high, I’d rather take my chances with the vaccine and not with COVID.  We have literally no idea how COVID will affect kids long term.

Do you figure the vaccine is a higher risk than the virus? 

[Not_a_Number]

Stuff like this (and MIS-C) is why I worry about kids:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wtop.com/coronavirus/2021/04/kids-can-get-long-haul-covid-too-recovery-can-take-months/amp/

I don’t feel like I have a good understanding of how frequent sequelae are, but the very presence of sequelae in kids freaks me the heck out.

[vonfirmath]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Stuff like this (and MIS-C) is why I worry about kids:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wtop.com/coronavirus/2021/04/kids-can-get-long-haul-covid-too-recovery-can-take-months/amp/

I don’t feel like I have a good understanding of how frequent sequelae are, but the very presence of sequelae in kids freaks me the heck out.

I'm a lot more worried about what is happening in Honduras and Uganda and Kenya, etc than even my own kids.  So yes, while I acknowledge that side effects are possible from the disease as well as the vaccine, the risk is not high enough yet vs uncertain reward for kids -- particularly my younger one.

 

 

[Penelope]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I can imagine thinking this way if numbers are really low. But if numbers are high, I’d rather take my chances with the vaccine and not with COVID.  We have literally no idea how COVID will affect kids long term.

Do you figure the vaccine is a higher risk than the virus? 

I think we don’t know what the vaccine risk is for children, and, not knowing, hard to make an evaluation of what the greater risk to them is. Therefore I think the precautionary principle applies. 
 

We don’t know how Covid affects children long term, but there isn’t a particular reason to think that it would affect them adversely long term, from what is known about other Coronaviruses.

Also, and I know this is debatable and we don’t know the answer, but many think this virus will be endemic, meaning we will continue to encounter it through the coming years, but our immune systems will be able to deal with it because of vaccination or previous infection. I see the primary reason for vaccination is to prevent severe disease and death.

[Corraleno]

28 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

If we deem AZ and J&J unsuitable for use for our own populations, why do we think they are good enough for the other countries?

If the only vaccinations that are good enough are the mRNA then yes, we need to find a way to share those.

 

 

Obviously AZ is still plenty "good enough" for the UK, where it's been used in a very successful vaccine campaign that has dramatically reduced cases and deaths, and they are still using it in people over 30. Many other countries are continuing to use it in older people (over 50/55/60/65 depending on country), since that age group has the lowest risk of blood clots and the highest risk of severe illness and death from Covid. And in countries that are experiencing huge spikes and have limited access to vaccines, like Hungary and Brazil, they are using AZ in everyone.

There will never be enough Pfizer and Moderna to vaccinate the entire world, and the logistical issues make it very difficult to use in poor countries anyway. It makes no sense to throw away hundreds of millions of doses of an effective vaccine, that could potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives, when there are countries that desperately want it. Many of those countries will be relying on Russian and Chinese vaccines, which may be less effective than AZ or J&J and yet have the same issues — or worse, given the complaints about Sputnik.

 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Penelope said:

We don’t know how Covid affects children long term, but there isn’t a particular reason to think that it would affect them adversely long term, from what is known about other Coronaviruses.

I have no clue why you’d generalize from other coronaviruses as opposed to from actual kids we’ve seen having long-term issues. Adults don’t have sequelae from other coronaviruses, either!!

 

5 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I think we don’t know what the vaccine risk is for children, and, not knowing, hard to make an evaluation of what the greater risk to them is. Therefore I think the precautionary principle applies. 

We’ll have a trial. And I’m about 98% certain that the trial will show way fewer issues than the virus.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Penelope]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I can imagine thinking this way if numbers are really low. 

See, I think (hope) that by the time we could give this to younger children, the numbers will be much lower. 
 

By then, we might also have a better idea of how common Covid problems are for them. 
So I don’t have my mind made up. 
 

The other thing that gives me pause with a vaccine for them, is that unless they have seen zero other people over the year and half or two years it will be until they could get vaccinated, there is some non-zero possibility they could have had Covid and been asymptomatic or so mildly symptomatic that no one picked it up. Most children don’t get sick. So maybe for some children, it would make sense to get antibody tested before choosing a vaccine while it’s still so new, I don’t know.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

See, I think (hope) that by the time we could give this to younger children, the numbers will be much lower. 

If that’s the case, I may reevaluate. We’ll see.

[Penelope]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have no clue why you’d generalize from other coronaviruses as opposed to from actual kids we’ve seen having long-term issues. Adults don’t have sequelae from other coronaviruses, either!!

 

We’ll have a trial. And I’m about 98% certain that the trial will show way fewer issues than the virus.

If you mean MIS-C, that concerns me, too, but it is very very uncommon. 
Coronaviruses can kill frail adults. It’s possible they could cause other sequelae, who knows if it’s been studied. I see your point. 
I don’t see that there is a lot of evidence for lots of long Covid in kids, and so far I don’t see that This virus is staying dormant i tissues or anything like that. Not that it couldn’t be, but long term= unknown, risk of rare devastating vaccine problem= also unknown.

And I don’t know that vaccine will prevent it on an individual level. It can even occur after asymptomatic infection, or at least I’ve read of cases where that seems to have happened. I hope that cases going down, and population immunity, is what will stop it. We know that mRNA reduces asymptomatic infection within a couple of months after vaccination, but not much more than that.
 

The trials won’t have enough children to pick up rare events. That is the issue as I see it. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Penelope

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Penelope said:

If you mean MIS-C, that concerns me, too, but it is very very uncommon.

That and long COVID, which also happens in kids.

There were 3,000 cases of MIS-C, which is indeed rare but would probably be picked up in a study of a few thousand.

 

Just now, Penelope said:

And I don’t know that vaccine will prevent it on an individual level. It can even occur after asymptomatic infection, or at least I’ve read of cases where that seems to have happened. I hope that cases going down, and population immunity, is what will stop it. We know that mRNA reduces asymptomatic infection within a couple of months after vaccination, but not much more than that

I would guess that an asymptomatic infection after a vaccine is different than not.

 

Just now, Penelope said:

The trials won’t have enough children to pick up rare events. That is the issue as I see it. 

But we know the rate of sequelae with actual COVID is more than high enough to be picked up. Ergo, if that’s true, the vaccine will be safer.

[bluemongoose]

23 minutes ago, Penelope said:

The other thing that gives me pause with a vaccine for them, is that unless they have seen zero other people over the year and half or two years it will be until they could get vaccinated, there is some non-zero possibility they could have had Covid and been asymptomatic or so mildly symptomatic that no one picked it up. Most children don’t get sick. So maybe for some children, it would make sense to get antibody tested before choosing a vaccine while it’s still so new, I don’t know.

My kids have seen 0 people in the last year. I have 2 higher risk kids. This is a must for us. I know that it is not the same for others. Unless we got this virus in December of 2019, which is possible because we got something nasty around Christmas, then we have not had it. We are waiting and hoping for vaccines to release us from staying at home 100%. I do understand and sympathize with other countries that need vaccines, but I also think we need to vaccinate at least our more at risk people (including kids) here too. 

[Amira]

19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

Obviously AZ is still plenty "good enough" for the UK, where it's been used in a very successful vaccine campaign that has dramatically reduced cases and deaths, and they are still using it in people over 30. Many other countries are continuing to use it in older people (over 50/55/60/65 depending on country), since that age group has the lowest risk of blood clots and the highest risk of severe illness and death from Covid. And in countries that are experiencing huge spikes and have limited access to vaccines, like Hungary and Brazil, they are using AZ in everyone.

There will never be enough Pfizer and Moderna to vaccinate the entire world, and the logistical issues make it very difficult to use in poor countries anyway. It makes no sense to throw away hundreds of millions of doses of an effective vaccine, that could potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives, when there are countries that desperately want it. Many of those countries will be relying on Russian and Chinese vaccines, which may be less effective than AZ or J&J and yet have the same issues — or worse, given the complaints about Sputnik.

 

I completely agree that no doses of AZ or J&J should be thrown away.  I think both are good enough for anyone anywhere in the world and I would be so happy to have plenty of doses of either available here in Africa rather than the ineffective Sinovac they’re going to be producing in my country.  But if wealthy countries continue to reject or hesitate on effective vaccines, then less effective vaccines without so much negative press (often because it’s been deliberately repressed) that are cheaper to manufacture will fill the gap in countries with less vaccine access.  Vaccine hesitancy in the US and Europe, for any reason, has real consequences all over the world.  It’s especially harmful if they try pass on vaccines that aren’t considered safe enough for their own citizens.  

[TCB]

20 hours ago, Penelope said:

And I don’t know that vaccine will prevent it on an individual level. It can even occur after asymptomatic infection, or at least I’ve read of cases where that seems to have happened. I hope that cases going down, and population immunity, is what will stop it. We know that mRNA reduces asymptomatic infection within a couple of months after vaccination, but not much more than that.

I’m too lazy to look it up right now but I’m pretty sure the CDC just said Pfizer was 80% effective against asymptomatic infection  after the first dose and 90% after the second.

[Penelope]

38 minutes ago, TCB said:

I’m too lazy to look it up right now but I’m pretty sure the CDC just said Pfizer was 80% effective against asymptomatic infection  after the first dose and 90% after the second.

👍I said that (bolded). It’s great, but not 100%, and it has only been a couple of months, so that over time the ability to prevent asymptomatic infection may be lower, and we will could see more mild cases. However, by then, spread will also hopefully be much lower so it will be less easy to catch it. But I think there is some suggestion that half of kids,or even more, are asymptomatic with infections even without vaccine. 

20 hours ago, Penelope said:

And I don’t know that vaccine will prevent it on an individual level. It can even occur after asymptomatic infection, or at least I’ve read of cases where that seems to have happened. I hope that cases going down, and population immunity, is what will stop it. We know that mRNA reduces asymptomatic infection within a couple of months after vaccination, but not much more than that.
 

 

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That and long COVID, which also happens in kids.

There were 3,000 cases of MIS-C, which is indeed rare but would probably be picked up in a study of a few thousand.

 

I would guess that an asymptomatic infection after a vaccine is different than not.

What is the evidence for long Covid in kids? I think this will also turn out to be very rare. This doesn’t concern me at all for my healthy younger children. Total speculation, but I don’t think this will turn out to have longer term consequences any more frequently than any other respiratory illness in young children. 
I think the risks of keeping my healthy children out of activities and away from other children is higher than the risk of virus to them, even now, with no vaccine. I have had kids in school, sports, and extracurriculars (yes, with some restrictions imposed) since the school year began.

How we see these things is going to affect how we judge the risk of a vaccine delivery system that has not previously been used in children, and has barely begun to be used in anyone. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Penelope

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Penelope said:

his doesn’t concern me at all for my healthy younger children. Total speculation, but I don’t think this will turn out to have longer term consequences any more frequently than any other respiratory illness in young children.

You're right. This is total speculation at odds with the current evidence. I'll be delighted if you're right, but I doubt it. 

[Laura Corin]

20 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Obviously AZ is still plenty "good enough" for the UK, where it's been used in a very successful vaccine campaign that has dramatically reduced cases and deaths, and they are still using it in people over 30.

Yes.  The risk of blood clots with AZ is extremely low.  Covid 19 is much riskier.  I've had one AZ dose and look forward to my second.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

These data are a bit old - I couldn't find a more recent graph.  As people in their fifties are now mostly vaccinated, I would expect the bottom line to be dipping further now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/02/covid-deaths-in-england-and-wales-falling-fastest-among-people-over-80

[Penelope]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

You're right. This is total speculation at odds with the current evidence. I'll be delighted if you're right, but I doubt it. 

Okay, but there really isn’t any evidence the other way, either.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

Okay, but there really isn’t any evidence the other way, either.

I disagree with that. If you're interested, you can look it up. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[kokotg]

18 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Okay, but there really isn’t any evidence the other way, either.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

Quote

Evidence from the first study of long covid in children suggests that more than half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by kokotg

[TCB]

I was just watching Dr John Campbell today and he was talking about a pre print paper by scientists from Oxford - not the same ones involved with the vaccine apparently - talking about the risks of Cerebral Venous Thrombosis and Portal vein Thrombosis with Covid, mRNA vaccines and the AZ vaccine. Pretty surprising figures! Will try and link the podcast.

 

Not sure what to make of it.

[Laura Corin]

34 minutes ago, TCB said:

I was just watching Dr John Campbell today and he was talking about a pre print paper by scientists from Oxford - not the same ones involved with the vaccine apparently - talking about the risks of Cerebral Venous Thrombosis and Portal vein Thrombosis with Covid, mRNA vaccines and the AZ vaccine. Pretty surprising figures! Will try and link the podcast.

 

Not sure what to make of it.

Here's the news release from the above report:

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-04-15-risk-rare-blood-clotting-higher-covid-19-vaccines

So the risks for mRNA vaccines are only 20% less than for AZ, according to these data.  And both are much lower than getting Covid-19.  Dr John also talks about the risks of portal vein thrombosis, which are not highlighted in the press release.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Here's the news release from the above report:

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-04-15-risk-rare-blood-clotting-higher-covid-19-vaccines

So the risks for mRNA vaccines are only 20% less than for AZ, according to these data.  And both are much lower than getting Covid-19.  Dr John also talks about the risks of portal vein thrombosis, which are not highlighted in the press release.

So, I don't know any of this terminology, but is it the case that the CVT was somehow different for mRNA vaccines versus AZ? Because I know there were reported deaths for AZ, whereas I haven't heard any publicized deaths for Pfizer or Moderna. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Laura Corin]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So, I don't know any of this terminology, but is it the case that the CVT was somehow different for mRNA vaccines versus AZ? Because I know there were reported deaths for AZ, whereas I haven't heard any publicized deaths for Pfizer or Moderna. 

Good point. No idea. It may be in the paper itself.

[vonfirmath]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So, I don't know any of this terminology, but is it the case that the CVT was somehow different for mRNA vaccines versus AZ? Because I know there were reported deaths for AZ, whereas I haven't heard any publicized deaths for Pfizer or Moderna. 

I also heard something about they aren't sure if the deaths were caused by using heparin -- the normal drug of choice for clots. But because of the low platelets it causes problems. So finding new treatments may cause it to be less dangerous.

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I also heard something about they aren't sure if the deaths were caused by using heparin -- the normal drug of choice for clots. But because of the low platelets it causes problems. So finding new treatments may cause it to be less dangerous.

Yeah, I remember reading about that. 

Maybe it's less severe for the mRNA vaccines?? Or maybe people weren't using the same treatment? 

I'm really glad they found the side effect, but I wish this wasn't affecting the speed of the rollout so much 😞 . I know it isn't in the US, but everywhere else it is... 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Not_a_Number