The Vaccine Thread

[catz]

Kind of an aside, but I'm not sure I trust the MIS-C/covid related numbers out there as an actual rate of occurrence. I think we'd need to look at hospitalization overages for 21 and under for a better picture.  My nephew is currently hospitalized for MIS-C.  He was quarantined for covid exposure in the correct time frame.  He still tested negative for covid AND negative for antibodies.  He is at a world class hospital, so they are going to follow him and fully expect some antibodies to show up at point.  The doctors said given his history and quarantine, there's almost no chance it is anything but covid related.  There is a well documented outbreak in their sports and school community over the last couple months that keeps simmering because no one has the sense to do a reset and shut things down for a bit. But his case is not counted like a kid with a covid+ test might be.

Anyway, long story short,  I wouldn't be surprised if issues with kids and covid are not being well counted and documented and understood.  If kids with viral high fevers are in a small hospital for a few days and don't test positive for covid, it's highly unlikely anyone is going to follow up to check for antibodies.  

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

They call it phase iv and monitor it for years after approval.  It's also being sold during that time.  I remember when they rolled out the hpv vaccine.  They made it covered and recommended for the target group at highest risk first, then a few years later expanded the age range.  After that data they expanded to males.  That was essentially a decade from start to end.

It does make sense that it will be able to go more quickly this time because the vaccine is being given at a much higher rate. I’d think it took quite a long time for 10 million doses of HPV vaccine to be given, for example, whereas the US currently does that many Covid vaccines in just a few days.  That doesn’t answer the long term question, of course, but given the alternative, still makes sense. 

[Penelope]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Kind of an aside, but I'm not sure I trust the MIS-C/covid related numbers out there as an actual rate of occurrence. I think we'd need to look at hospitalization overages for 21 and under for a better picture.  My nephew is currently hospitalized for MIS-C.  He was quarantined for covid exposure in the correct time frame.  He still tested negative for covid AND negative for antibodies.  He is at a world class hospital, so they are going to follow him and fully expect some antibodies to show up at point.  The doctors said given his history and quarantine, there's almost no chance it is anything but covid related.  There is a well documented outbreak in their sports and school community over the last couple months that keeps simmering because no one has the sense to do a reset and shut things down for a bit. But his case is not counted like a kid with a covid+ test might be.

Anyway, long story short,  I wouldn't be surprised if issues with kids and covid are not being well counted and documented and understood.  If kids with viral high fevers are in a small hospital for a few days and don't test positive for covid, it's highly unlikely anyone is going to follow up to check for antibodies.  

That’s interesting. I have a little more faith in the small hospitals than that.

I also understand that MIS-C patients are usually pretty sick and are monitored in the pediatric ICU. I think if a child shows up with something strange and evidence of organ damage as with MIS-C, they will end up in a larger center where there are pediatric specialists. I didn’t think it’s is the kind of thing where they have a fever for two days and go home; they need more careful monitoring and treatment. Don’t they receive immune globulins?

[catz]

14 minutes ago, Penelope said:

That’s interesting. I have a little more faith in the small hospitals than that.

I also understand that MIS-C patients are usually pretty sick and are monitored in the pediatric ICU. I think if a child shows up with something strange and evidence of organ damage as with MIS-C, they will end up in a larger center where there are pediatric specialists. I didn’t think it’s is the kind of thing where they have a fever for two days and go home; they need more careful monitoring and treatment. Don’t they receive immune globulins?

The average hospitalization is 3-10 days we were told.  Some kids don’t show obvious organ involvement  and rebound after a day or 2 on steroids and are sent home to recover.  My nephew has had heart and artery concerns but has not been in an ICU, he has been stable and coherent throughout.  
 

Given the level of Covid denial in the US, it just wouldn’t surprise me.  
 

eta also in light of this which came out this week

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/06/994287048/new-study-estimates-more-than-900-000-people-have-died-of-covid-19-in-u-s

Edited May 8, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Catwoman]

@Pen -- I know you're not planning on getting the vaccine, but you're still taking other precautions, like masking and social distancing, aren't you?  

I'm not getting the impression that you don't believe that Covid is serious; I'm mainly getting the impression that you are taking a wait-and-see approach to the vaccine. 

I can only speak for myself, but I have no issue with you waiting to see longer term information about the vaccine, because I'm assuming you are taking precautions to protect yourself and others as best you can.

I'm in favor of the vaccine, and my entire family has been vaccinated, but I can understand why some low-risk people with little chance of exposure to the virus may be hesitant to rush out and get the shot. That's not saying I wouldn't like to see everyone get vaccinated, in the hope of finally being able to get back to some semblance of normal, though! 

[Penelope]

31 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

The average hospitalization is 3-10 days we were told.  Some kids don’t show obvious organ involvement  and rebound after a day or 2 on steroids and are sent home to recover.  My nephew has had heart and artery concerns but has not been in an ICU, he has been stable and coherent throughout.  
 

Given the level of Covid denial in the US, it just wouldn’t surprise me.  

According to this case definition from the CDC, Covid exposure “counts”, so not having a positive test or antibodies wouldn’t exclude the diagnosis for your nephew. https://www.cdc.gov/mis-c/cases/index.html
Thanks for sharing his story. I haven’t read or heard very much about MIS-C. I hope he is fully recovered very soon.

For the numbers of MIS-C to be suppressed from Covid denial, there would have to be Covid denial among pediatricians. I’m sure there is some, but I’m not really seeing that it is widespread. 🤔

Edited May 8, 2021 by Penelope

[Wheres Toto]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wonder if that's true. Yes, we might have technically have a longer time between the Phase 3 trials and general rollout, but do we actually monitor the Phase 3 participants well after the trial is over? Plus, some things are genuinely rare enough that they'll be above the level of noise only once you roll out to millions. 

 

3 hours ago, Syllieann said:

They call it phase iv and monitor it for years after approval.  It's also being sold during that time.  I remember when they rolled out the hpv vaccine.  They made it covered and recommended for the target group at highest risk first, then a few years later expanded the age range.  After that data they expanded to males.  That was essentially a decade from start to end.

Phase IV trials are not done for all medications and drugs.  Usually it's for those that they feel the benefit of releasing it is high enough that they are willing to go ahead and release even if there may be concerns.   Phase IV is also sometimes done for new indications.

The amount of time a Phase 3 trials takes is often based on the time it takes to get patients to enroll.  Those indications with a lot of patients often go a lot faster than rarer indications.  

The Covid vaccine trial was fast, but it's not completely unusual for a Phase 3 trial to take just a year or two.   It's also not unusual for it to take 5 years or more.  

I worked on a drug in Phase 3 trials for acute ischemic stroke.   It took over 5 years because they had to wait until a patient came into a trial hospital within 3 hours of the onset of a stroke, but was not a good candidate for tPA.  

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

@Pen -- I know you're not planning on getting the vaccine, but you're still taking other precautions, like masking and social distancing, aren't you?  

I'm not getting the impression that you don't believe that Covid is serious; I'm mainly getting the impression that you are taking a wait-and-see approach to the vaccine. 

I can only speak for myself, but I have no issue with you waiting to see longer term information about the vaccine, because I'm assuming you are taking precautions to protect yourself and others as best you can.

I'm in favor of the vaccine, and my entire family has been vaccinated, but I can understand why some low-risk people with little chance of exposure to the virus may be hesitant to rush out and get the shot. That's not saying I wouldn't like to see everyone get vaccinated, in the hope of finally being able to get back to some semblance of normal, though! 

I seem to keep being drawn back here even when I think I’m done! 
 

I think obviously there was/is a real illness. Too much to go into here but I think there may even have been more than one real illness in China with some conflation and confusion at the start. Anyway, I am following the rules in my area in terms of masks etc.  At least as they currently exist. One mask indoors: Okay. Two would be too much disruption of breathing and I would not. And Happy Masks which my family is mainly using are already multilayer. But otoh I am completely fine with anyone who is not sick not masking etc at this point.   And I think we should be “back to normal” already. Should have been months ago. At this point, for myself, I think keeping my “inner terrain” and “innate immune system” functioning well are more beneficial. For me. And if I do not get sick, then also I am no danger to anyone else.  And I have had Vitamin D levels checked relatively recently, and various immune functions checked less recently (secretory IgA, T-cells, etc) so Imay be less in the dark about my own immune system function than many people. 

I am not especially extremely “low risk” — partly due to age (obviously having been part of the small pox vaccine era means I’m not one of the younger people on WTM 😁 And a friend from childhood became a great grandma recently... it’s strange to be the mom of a teen while a childhood friend has become a great grandmother! ) and some health issues. But I think I would tolerate the illness far better than the vaccine if I were to end up getting the illness , though I am using other precautions such that I also think I am unlikely to get it. 

Certainly as young great grandma age with some personal health issues, if anyone is getting their children vaccinated for sake of “someone like me” I would beg them not to. To please put the children first.  Please Dont throw healthy children whose innate immunity puts them in a metaphorically speaking  natural lifeboat (99.9 plus % recovery rate) out into the ocean with experimental water wings for the sake of us potentially more vulnerable relatively elders. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess we're all currently in a Phase 4 trial, lol. 

 Probably not officially, but yes, exactly!!!

 pretty much a world wide trial/experiment with an experimental vaccine/gene therapy! And many people eager to put their children (even those with extremely low personal risk) into it too! 

[Corraleno]

Of course unvaccinated people are also part of the experiment. They've just chosen to be the control group, in an experiment for which all of the data we have so far, from official trials covering hundreds of thousands of people to real-life data from hundreds of millions more, show that outcomes for the control group are much much worse. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

I am not especially extremely “low risk” — partly due to age (obviously having been part of the small pox vaccine era means I’m not one of the younger people on WTM 😁 And a friend from childhood became a great grandma recently... it’s strange to be the mom of a teen while a childhood friend has become a great grandmother! ) and some health issues. But I think I would tolerate the illness far better than the vaccine if I were to end up getting the illness , though I am using other precautions such that I also think I am unlikely to get it. 

I can’t imagine on what basis you believe even a very healthy “young great grandmother age” person would tolerate Covid19 better than the vaccine. That shows an enormous disregard for statistics and probabilities. 

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Certainly as young great grandma age with some personal health issues, if anyone is getting their children vaccinated for sake of “someone like me” I would beg them not to. To please put the children first.

Speak for yourself. Losing loved ones is traumatic for children and living during a pandemic is no picnic for them either. 40,000 US children have lost a parent to this disease so far. In India, children are being orphaned due to Covid at a rate they’re having a hard time keeping up with. You can’t sacrifice adults without it harming children as well. 

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

I can’t imagine on what basis you believe even a very healthy “young great grandmother age” person would tolerate Covid19 better than the vaccine. That shows an enormous disregard for statistics and probabilities. 

Well, she might! Really, there’s probably a 50% chance she’d have an easier time with COVID... the problem is that the “bad” vaccine outcomes are much better than the bad COVID outcomes.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, she might! Really, there’s probably a 50% chance she’d have an easier time with COVID... the problem is that the “bad” vaccine outcomes are much better than the bad COVID outcomes.

Yeah, I meant as far as a bad outcome. The chance of a bad outcome from Covid is astronomically higher than a bad outcome from a vaccine. I’m not talking just about symptoms. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by KSera

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

But otoh I am completely fine with anyone who is not sick not masking etc at this point.   And I think we should be “back to normal” already. Should have been months ago.

Why is that? What is different to make that the case, vs a year ago?

[lynn]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Why is that? What is different to make that the case, vs a year ago?

We know more about transmission.  No longer have to go directionally in grocery stores.  No longer feel he need to wipe down groceries with Clorox wipes.  Stores here are selling excess sanitizer and masks for next to nothing.  No longer need to text the doctors office when you arrive and wait outside until your room is ready.  Signs  changed from masks required to masks recommended.  Festivals and races are taking place.  No longer get taking temperatures when you enter buildings. Libraries are fully open again.

Edited May 9, 2021 by lynn

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

I seem to keep being drawn back here even when I think I’m done! 
 

I think obviously there was/is a real illness. Too much to go into here but I think there may even have been more than one real illness in China with some conflation and confusion at the start. Anyway, I am following the rules in my area in terms of masks etc.  At least as they currently exist. One mask indoors: Okay. Two would be too much disruption of breathing and I would not. And Happy Masks which my family is mainly using are already multilayer. But otoh I am completely fine with anyone who is not sick not masking etc at this point.   And I think we should be “back to normal” already. Should have been months ago. At this point, for myself, I think keeping my “inner terrain” and “innate immune system” functioning well are more beneficial. For me. And if I do not get sick, then also I am no danger to anyone else.  And I have had Vitamin D levels checked relatively recently, and various immune functions checked less recently (secretory IgA, T-cells, etc) so Imay be less in the dark about my own immune system function than many people. 

I am not especially extremely “low risk” — partly due to age (obviously having been part of the small pox vaccine era means I’m not one of the younger people on WTM 😁 And a friend from childhood became a great grandma recently... it’s strange to be the mom of a teen while a childhood friend has become a great grandmother! ) and some health issues. But I think I would tolerate the illness far better than the vaccine if I were to end up getting the illness , though I am using other precautions such that I also think I am unlikely to get it. 

Certainly as young great grandma age with some personal health issues, if anyone is getting their children vaccinated for sake of “someone like me” I would beg them not to. To please put the children first.  Please Dont throw healthy children whose innate immunity puts them in a metaphorically speaking  natural lifeboat (99.9 plus % recovery rate) out into the ocean with experimental water wings for the sake of us potentially more vulnerable relatively elders. 

Thanks for explaining, Pen! 

I hope you and your family stay healthy! Have your dh and your son decided against getting vaccinated, too? 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Why is that? What is different to make that the case, vs a year ago?

Primarily More research in that time. 
 

ETA: a year ago as I followed Worldometer etc it looked like cv19 was hugely more deadly. The dead vs recovered columns were at some points 80% recovered 20% dead back theon iirc.

 

Now or at least recently when I have looked it is high 90s recovered and hovering around 1% dead for cases with a conclusion  

The difference between something looking like it’s 20% fatal and maybe would have gone up, and 1% or less fatal across all ages and risk groups is a big difference.   

Edited May 9, 2021 by Pen

[Pen]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I can’t imagine on what basis you believe even a very healthy “young great grandmother age” person would tolerate Covid19 better than the vaccine. That shows an enormous disregard for statistics and probabilities. 

 

I have knowledge of my own tendencies about reactions to vaccines compared to illness. You sound like you are putting yourself in a position where you are asserting medical knowledge for me specifically. Are you a licensed physician? If not, knock it off. 
In fact, since you are not my personal physician. Knock it off!

 

Quote

 

Speak for yourself. Losing loved ones is traumatic for children and living during a pandemic is no picnic for them either. 40,000 US children have lost a parent to this disease so far. In India, children are being orphaned due to Covid at a rate they’re having a hard time keeping up with. You can’t sacrifice adults without it harming children as well. 

I am speaking for myself!!!!

 

 

You do the same. Speak for yourself . Not for me. 

 

also many of us have signed a petition as to what I put above!

 

 

Could you please state your qualifications to think your understanding on this subject is superior to mine.  seriously . Thank you. 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Pen

[KSera]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

You sound like you are putting yourself in a position where you are asserting medical knowledge for me specifically. Are you a licensed physician? If not, knock it off. 
In fact, since you are not my personal physician. Knock it off!

I didn’t assert anything for you personally or specifically at all. I said quite clearly that I don’t know what would lead to the conclusion that someone of young great grandmother age would be at less risk from the virus itself than from the vaccine. If you have a history of vaccine reactions that makes it riskier for you personally, that would be a reason for you to think that for yourself, and it’s not my business to know whether you have that medical history or not. It doesn’t mean that in general it would be a fair statement that the vaccine is riskier to a healthy senior citizen than the virus is. If people were to widely follow that advice, there would be a lot more deaths and serious illness than if they follow what the science is clearly showing. I’m not sure why you are speaking so aggressively with me.

 

When I said speak for yourself, I meant about urging people not to vaccinate young people for the sake of older people. I have older loved ones in my life who feel quite differently. That’s what I meant about speak for yourself. Again, why so aggressive? 

 

1 hour ago, lynn said:

We know more about transmission.  No longer have to go directionally in grocery stores.  No longer feel he need to wipe down groceries with Clorox wipes.  Stores here are selling excess sanitizer and masks for next to nothing.  No longer need to text the doctors office when you arrive and wait outside until your room is ready.  Signs  changed from masks required to masks recommended.  Festivals and races are taking place. 

The more we have learned about transmission is in opposition to some of the above, particularly if they are dispensing with masks where you are. The more time has passed, the MORE they have realized this virus travels in the air. It is now acknowledged that It is an airborne virus, spread primarily via the air we breathe in, which means wearing masks indoors and avoiding gatherings indoors are (after vaccination) the main ways we have of reducing transmission. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

I can’t imagine on what basis you believe even a very healthy “young great grandmother age” person would tolerate Covid19 better than the vaccine. That shows an enormous disregard for statistics and probabilities. 

also, just to add, I am not a “statistic” or “probability”. I am a human being a human person and a human soul. I know my own allergies, my own health history, my own positives and negatives way better than you know my health history, allergies and what not (close to zero other than what I have revealed). I consider you totally out of place in your remarks.  
 

 

[KSera]

29 minutes ago, Pen said:

Could you please state your qualifications to think your understanding on this subject is superior to mine.  seriously . Thank you. 

I am not a physician. I hold a degree in a medical field, granted to me by a very good medical school. I am not at all professionally qualified to speak as an authority on this subject, as it is unrelated to my field. I do have a strong science background. I don’t generally assess my understanding on any subject to be better than another person’s, unless they are sharing false or wrong  information that shows that to be true— if someone says the earth is flat, I have no problem thinking my knowledge of earth science is stronger than theirs. You have shared a lot of pseudoscience and conspiracy theories about this and other subjects recently, which you’re fully entitled to do, but I’m not going to take posts from you as seriously as I would have before you started doing so. 

[Pen]

Just now, KSera said:

I didn’t assert anything for you personally or specifically at all. I said quite clearly that I don’t know what would lead to the conclusion that someone of young great grandmother age would be at less risk from the virus itself than from the vaccine. If you have a history of vaccine reactions that makes it riskier for you personally, that would be a reason for you to think that for yourself, and it’s not my business to know whether you have that medical history or not. It doesn’t mean that in general it would be a fair statement that the vaccine is riskier to a healthy senior citizen than the virus is. If people were to widely follow that advice, there would be a lot more deaths and serious illness than if they follow what the science is clearly showing. I’m not sure why you are speaking so aggressively with me.

 

When I said speak for yourself, I meant about urging people not to vaccinate young people for the sake of older people. I have older loved ones in my life who feel quite differently. That’s what I meant about speak for yourself. Again, why so aggressive? 

 

The more we have learned about transmission is in opposition to some of the above, particularly if they are dispensing with masks where you are. The more time has passed, the MORE they have realized this virus travels in the air. It is now acknowledged that It is an airborne virus, spread primarily via the air we breathe in, which means wearing masks indoors and avoiding gatherings indoors are (after vaccination) the main ways we have of reducing transmission. 

The “Someone” I was talking about was me! I was answering Catwoman asking about what I was doing!  

And in terms of asking not to have children sacrificed for “us” I am referring to myself and people like me who have signed such petitions.  
 

The idea of needing to put the needs of the elders first has been articulated many times and you have just done so again.   
 

I am feeling aggressive about your comments because I feel strongly that children should not be sacrificed. And that they should not be experimented upon. Nuremberg type strong feelings about it. 
 

I already said you and I have an apparently unbridgeable rift between us. 
 

I acknowledge that you are correct that I am feeling aggressive and I don’t like that so I am going to put you on “ignore” now. As a newcomer if you are actually a newcomer you may not know that feature exists. I suggest you put me on “ignore” too.  

 

 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Pen said:

Primarily More research in that time. 
 

ETA: a year ago as I followed Worldometer etc it looked like cv19 was hugely more deadly. The dead vs recovered columns were at some points 80% recovered 20% dead back theon iirc.

 

Now or at least recently when I have looked it is high 90s recovered and hovering around 1% dead for cases with a conclusion  

The difference between something looking like it’s 20% fatal and maybe would have gone up, and 1% or less fatal across all ages and risk groups is a big difference.   

Oh, so you just don't think i's a dangerous virus, now. Not worth having any kind of preventative restrictions for. I really can't even begin to discuss that. 

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Oh, so you just don't think i's a dangerous virus, now. Not worth having any kind of preventative restrictions for. I really can't even begin to discuss that. 

If you go by the totally ridiculous CFR of 20% from a year ago (which was OBVIOUSLY not the IFR back then, either), then I can see how it seems less risky now, lol. 

Whereas I always figured the IFR was about a percent and it still is, and that's what seems scary to me. (And for me personally the IFR is obviously much less. And that was obvious a year ago, too.) 

[Wheres Toto]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

The “Someone” I was talking about was me! I was answering Catwoman asking about what I was doing!  

And in terms of asking not to have children sacrificed for “us” I am referring to myself and people like me who have signed such petitions.  

The fact that you are signing petitions and strongly encouraging others to sign them pushing for a lifting of restrictions, contradicts your "you do you" statement.    I'm sorry but "do what's right for you" is completely blown when you start encouraging others to also behave in ways that are known to be unsafe.

And comparing kids wearing masks and distancing to the Nuremberg trials seems extremely hyperbolic.  

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

And comparing kids wearing masks and distancing to the Nuremberg trials seems extremely hyperbolic.  

This was super disturbing to me as well, to the point it came back to me in the night. A quick web search showed me that this comparison is all the rage on various super wacky conspiracy sites right now. They’re predicting second Nuremberg trials will be held due to the Covid vaccine (oh, and that our masks are poisoning us, too). 
 

A quote from a bio ethics professor who apparently has been misquoted by these people seems appropriate:

“In support of the bogus claim that the Nuremberg Code would apply to the use of vaccines, the National Vaccine Information Center’s post includes out-of-context quotes from two bioethicists.

One of them, Arthur Caplan, a professor of bioethics at New York University, told us in an email that the use of a quote from his 1992 article is “[c]ompletely erroneous” and is a “[f]lat out Reflection of both ignorance of history and ethics.”

It is “a gross disservice to the victims of brutal Nazi experiments to distort my words for lame anti-science that will kill people if this bilge is taken seriously,” Caplan said.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/nuremberg-code-addresses-experimentation-not-vaccines/
 

I feel like I need to wash my browser now after some of the other links that came up in that search (and that’s without even having clicked them!)

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

I feel like I need to wash my browser now after some of the other links that came up in that search (and that’s without even having clicked them!)

I'm going to go with @Corraleno here and say that arguing is pointless in this particular instance 😞 . This is for 2 reasons: 

1) You aren't going to convince her. 

and 

2) No one reading along will be convinced by things she's saying, either, so there's just no reason to go down these highly disturbing rabbit holes. 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm going to go with @Corraleno here and say that arguing is pointless in this particular instance 😞 . This is for 2 reasons: 

1) You aren't going to convince her. 

and 

2) No one reading along will be convinced by things she's saying, either, so there's just no reason to go down these highly disturbing rabbit holes. 

Oh, I 100% agree. I included the above as explanation to Where’s Toto or anyone else about where that particular thing was coming from. Unfortunately, there clearly are some number of people who are getting sucked into this. Including the poster in question, who didn’t start out this way. Then it’s like a pyramid scheme, where each of them brings in one or two new people. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Oh, I 100% agree. I included the above as explanation to Where’s Toto or anyone else about where that particular thing was coming from. Unfortunately, there clearly are some number of people who are getting sucked into this. Including the poster in question, who didn’t start out this way. Then it’s like a pyramid scheme, where each of them brings in one or two new people. 

Some people are conspiracy-minded 😞 . I think it's clear enough who those people are, even before they start talking about Nuremberg trials... 

I wish our society wasn't so rife with conspiracies right now, though. It's bad for people. 

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Oh, so you just don't think i's a dangerous virus, now. Not worth having any kind of preventative restrictions for. I really can't even begin to discuss that. 

She thinks it's not dangerous for her because she takes a boatload of supplements including quercetin (which is a substitute for HCQ) and ivermectin, which she believes will protect her from covid.

Conspiracy nuts in the US: Ivermectin is a cheap and easily available cure for covid, but "they" don't want you to know that so they can force you to take dangerous vaccines!!! India and Brazil use HCQ and ivermectin and it works there!

India: Please send us all the vaccines, people are dying in the streets and we are running out of firewood to burn the bodies.

[Penelope]

16 hours ago, lynn said:

We know more about transmission.  No longer have to go directionally in grocery stores.  No longer feel he need to wipe down groceries with Clorox wipes.  Stores here are selling excess sanitizer and masks for next to nothing.  No longer need to text the doctors office when you arrive and wait outside until your room is ready.  Signs  changed from masks required to masks recommended.  Festivals and races are taking place.  No longer get taking temperatures when you enter buildings. Libraries are fully open again.

Some of us live in places where some of those things are still being done. Definitely doctors office, temp checks. Can get hair cut unlike a year ago, but wait outside for your turn, waiting room chairs removed most everywhere. 
And some places even have outdoor mask mandates, though that is loosening up most everywhere I think.

[Spryte]

10 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Some of us live in places where some of those things are still being done. Definitely doctors office, temp checks. Can get hair cut unlike a year ago, but wait outside for your turn, waiting room chairs removed most everywhere. 
And some places even have outdoor mask mandates, though that is loosening up most everywhere I think.

Right, things are the same here.  Temp checks.  Wait outside.  All of it.  We were just at pedi office - we wait outside, pay by phone, then go directly to an exam room.  I had a 4 hour procedure that required anesthesia and the doc’s policy is that your designated ride must stay on premises the entire time (or patient pays $50), but now designated driver has to wait in car the whole time, in parking lot.  While I waited for my pre-procedure Covid test, the waiting room had two chairs turned around between every one, to force spacing.  Masks required.

[Penelope]

20 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

 

Phase IV trials are not done for all medications and drugs.  Usually it's for those that they feel the benefit of releasing it is high enough that they are willing to go ahead and release even if there may be concerns.   Phase IV is also sometimes done for new indications.

The amount of time a Phase 3 trials takes is often based on the time it takes to get patients to enroll.  Those indications with a lot of patients often go a lot faster than rarer indications.  

The Covid vaccine trial was fast, but it's not completely unusual for a Phase 3 trial to take just a year or two.   It's also not unusual for it to take 5 years or more.  

I worked on a drug in Phase 3 trials for acute ischemic stroke.   It took over 5 years because they had to wait until a patient came into a trial hospital within 3 hours of the onset of a stroke, but was not a good candidate for tPA.  

I did a little googling of some vaccine trials and I wonder if vaccine trials might be slightly different with different guidelines than those from drug trials. I’ve seen several that enroll, give the doses at the beginning, and then watch everyone for a couple of years. Looking through clinicaltrials.gov just a little, and see the same. Now some of that would be to make sure enough people get the target disease to show a benefit, but they also have stated safety endpoints. 

There is also usually a much longer delay between submission of data and actual approval, too.
 

These vaccines are also novel with almost no safety data in humans prior to their development, so common sense says that should make a difference in how something is evaluated.

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

If you go by the totally ridiculous CFR of 20% from a year ago (which was OBVIOUSLY not the IFR back then, either), then I can see how it seems less risky now, lol. 

Whereas I always figured the IFR was about a percent and it still is, and that's what seems scary to me. (And for me personally the IFR is obviously much less. And that was obvious a year ago, too.) 

LOL, and I think it’s “only” half that or maybe 1/3 when all is said and done, especially if you exclude first wave which was higher and only look at the current picture, and considering that children were often overlooked and that some percentage get the virus but don’t have measurable antibodies and so aren’t showing up in serology studies.
 

Yet as someone who is not old enough to have gotten smallpox vaccine and has no risk factors so extremely unlikely to die of Covid, I’m still not excited about the risk of hospitalization and needing oxygen, the risk of clots or other bad things even after mild-moderate disease. And that’s not even addressing long COVID. I would not get a new vaccine if it were only about long Covid, based on what I know of it, but there are plenty of other not-death outcomes that are not so nice.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Penelope

[TexasProud]

30 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Some of us live in places where some of those things are still being done. Definitely doctors office, temp checks. Can get hair cut unlike a year ago, but wait outside for your turn, waiting room chairs removed most everywhere. 
And some places even have outdoor mask mandates, though that is loosening up most everywhere I think.

Nope. At OB/GYN no temp checks. None of the staff wore any masks.  The doctor told me I could take off my mask since he and his entire staff are vaccinated and I am.  He then also told me to get as many friends vaccinated as I possibly good since it has tricked to nothing.  He talked to me for 20 minutes about the safety and importance of the vaccine, horrible long Covid, etc.  I am guessing the few patients in the waiting room that were wearing a mask were not vaccinated. But that is a guess.   

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

Some of us live in places where some of those things are still being done. Definitely doctors office, temp checks. Can get hair cut unlike a year ago, but wait outside for your turn, waiting room chairs removed most everywhere. 
And some places even have outdoor mask mandates, though that is loosening up most everywhere I think.

It varies widely, not just by location, but also by practice. My dentist requires patients to wait in the car, does temp checks, mandates masks. They show they are taking patient and staff safety seriously, and I feel I can trust them. My chiro OTOH, even at the height of the pandemic, didn't even have masking. I won't be going back, even though I really need an adjustment, because I cannot trust them.

Now with out idiot governor, we never had a mask mandate. I am grateful my employer still has one, and our covid numbers have been much lower than the general population.

[regentrude]

40 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

 I am guessing the few patients in the waiting room that were wearing a mask were not vaccinated. But that is a guess.   

They could well be vaccinated - they might be following the CDC recommendation to mask indoors when with (potentially) unvaccinated people. I am vaccinated, and I would still mask in this situation even when not required. How can they know whether other patients and staff are vaxed?

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

They could well be vaccinated - they might be following the CDC recommendation to mask indoors when with (potentially) unvaccinated people. I am vaccinated, and I would still mask in this situation even when not required. How can they know whether other patients and staff are vaxed?

I was masked myself in the waiting room.  I didn’t take it off until in the exam room when the doc told me to.  I just wasn’t sure why some were not wearing  it  when the doctor was adamant that those not vaccinated had to wear it. Only thise vaccinated could forgo it.  When I went last summer, they had temp checks and mandatory masks for everyone.  

[ktgrok]

My PT place has temp checks, and you have answer a bunch of questions about exposure, family exposure, symptoms, vaccination, etc every time. And everyone is masked. 

[TCB]

I haven’t kept up with this thread too well the last few days so can anyone tell me if there was any further info on the 1/3 of vaccinated people experiencing tinnitus?

My dd 17 is scheduled for her 2nd shot tomorrow. A few days after the first one she had a couple of seconds of very loud ringing in one ear. I would love to know more about this. I’m weighing up the pros and cons for her going ahead with it. She hasn’t gotten Covid this whole time so I would love her not to get it. Our whole family has been very careful to not pose a risk to vulnerable people so that is also a pro, with the information coming out about much reduced risk of transmission with vaccination. Also, my family lives overseas so all of us being vaccinated fully is likely to make travel easier. However, she is very low risk for serious complications of Covid, and has received one dose so I wonder if it would be better to wait on the second.

I would really appreciate any further information about this if anyone knows of any. I can’t remember who mentioned it, but maybe they have links.

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, TCB said:

I haven’t kept up with this thread too well the last few days so can anyone tell me if there was any further info on the 1/3 of vaccinated people experiencing tinnitus?

 

I'm pretty sure that was a made up number. I found this - which works out to 0.6%. Now, I'm sure not everyone how had some temporary tinnitus bothered to report it, but still...not anywhere NEAR a third. 

The U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database cites 152 reports of tinnitus among 25,072 COVID-19 recipients of vaccines from Pfizer-BioNtech and Moderna.

https://www.drugdiscoverytrends.com/tinnitus-reports-grow-amid-covid-19-vaccinations/

In contrast, I found this about tinnitus and Covid infection: 

Although the evidence remains tentative, the researchers have estimated the prevalence of audiovestibular problems among people who have recovered from a SARS-CoV-2 infection.

Their analysis suggests that around 14.8% of patients experience tinnitus, or “ringing in the ears,” 7.6% have hearing loss, and 7.2% have rotatory vertigo, which is a sensation of spinning.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-linked-to-tinnitus-hearing-loss-and-vertigo

Edited May 9, 2021 by ktgrok

[Drama Llama]

Just now, ktgrok said:

I'm pretty sure that was a made up number. I found this - which works out to 0.6%. Now, I'm sure not everyone how had some temporary tinnitus bothered to report it, but still...not anywhere NEAR a third. 

The U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database cites 152 reports of tinnitus among 25,072 COVID-19 recipients of vaccines from Pfizer-BioNtech and Moderna.

https://www.drugdiscoverytrends.com/tinnitus-reports-grow-amid-covid-19-vaccinations/

That is 0.6% of the people who reported symptoms, not 0.6% of people vaccinated.

The stat I saw with the number vaccinated as the denominator is something like 0.0002%.

Not that that applies to someone who had it after the first dose.  Could she consult with her doctor? 

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, ... said:

That is 0.6% of the people who reported symptoms, not 0.6% of people vaccinated.

The stat I saw with the number vaccinated as the denominator is something like 0.0002%.

Not that that applies to someone who had it after the first dose.  Could she consult with her doctor? 

I’m not sure her dr will have any meaningful information about it. I keep going back and forth because she heard loud ringing but it literally lasted several seconds only. 

[Penelope]

24 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I was masked myself in the waiting room.  I didn’t take it off until in the exam room when the doc told me to.  I just wasn’t sure why some were not wearing  it  when the doctor was adamant that those not vaccinated had to wear it. Only thise vaccinated could forgo it.  When I went last summer, they had temp checks and mandatory masks for everyone.  

I tend to think it should be all or none.

No checking for vax status, but have everyone mask until cases are improved or some other metric that makes sense. Then lift for everyone, with anyone free to continue if they desire to do so. I think that is the way that the public health guidelines are going, regardless of what an individual business does.

I don’t like the idea of people who don’t vaccinate being the only ones who mask, making them conspicuous. It’s not like it’s enforceable, anyway. And what happens when kids are the only ones not vaccinated? A four year old has to continue with a mask indefinitely, even when all the adults around don’t? 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

LOL, and I think it’s “only” half that or maybe 1/3 when all is said and done, especially if you exclude first wave which was higher and only look at the current picture, and considering that children were often overlooked and that some percentage get the virus but don’t have measurable antibodies and so aren’t showing up in serology studies.

Yeah, it’s possible. It’s so age related that it’s not even a very useful statistic... that being said, some states have had more than 0.25% die, so there’s a definite lower bound. Either way, it’s a number I think of as large.

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

Some of us live in places where some of those things are still being done. Definitely doctors office, temp checks. Can get hair cut unlike a year ago, but wait outside for your turn, waiting room chairs removed most everywhere. 
And some places even have outdoor mask mandates, though that is loosening up most everywhere I think.

To see the physio this week I had to be interviewed on the phone about my health, then follow up with a declaration by email, arrive  masked precisely on time, use hand gel, have my temperature taken, and stay distanced except when actually being treated. The physio was masked,  gowned and gloved.  He didn't ask about my vaccine status.  The positivity rate in Scotland is 1 percent. 

I'm fine with these precautions.  It's a nasty disease and I want to protect medical staff, myself and those around me.

[JennyD]

25 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

He didn't ask about my vaccine status. 

In the last few weeks I have been to two different doctors, the dentist, and had a life insurance physical/interview.  All did some sort of Covid symptom screening, but -- to my utter bafflement -- none of them asked about my vaccine status.   If you're worried that patients might have covid, surely the #1 thing you'd want to know is if and when they've been vaccinated?

The life insurance interview was especially mystifying.  Several questions along the lines of, "In recent months, have you had substantial weight loss, chills, night sweats, or unexplained skin lesions?"  But no questions about whether I have been vaccinated against the #1 cause of death in the US RIGHT NOW.  I realize that insurance companies move slowly, but come on. 

[Not_a_Number]

On 5/8/2021 at 3:49 PM, FuzzyCatz said:

Anyway, long story short,  I wouldn't be surprised if issues with kids and covid are not being well counted and documented and understood.  If kids with viral high fevers are in a small hospital for a few days and don't test positive for covid, it's highly unlikely anyone is going to follow up to check for antibodies.  

I would also guess it's an undercount. But then I think the number of kid cases is also a vast undercount... so it might all even out, lol. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, JennyD said:

In the last few weeks I have been to two different doctors, the dentist, and had a life insurance physical/interview.  All did some sort of Covid symptom screening, but -- to my utter bafflement -- none of them asked about my vaccine status.   If you're worried that patients might have covid, surely the #1 thing you'd want to know is if and when they've been vaccinated?

The life insurance interview was especially mystifying.  Several questions along the lines of, "In recent months, have you had substantial weight loss, chills, night sweats, or unexplained skin lesions?"  But no questions about whether I have been vaccinated against the #1 cause of death in the US RIGHT NOW.  I realize that insurance companies move slowly, but come on. 

I've been three places I'd think might ask, first the PT office, and they are part of a large hospital system and all use this question thing that comes via text message an hour before your appointment. It didn't ask about vaccines before, but now does. I suppose pediatric dentist wouldn't ask since kids are not eligible, and my only other medical visit was my primary care, and they didn't ask, but turns out they already had it in the system. 

[Syllieann]

I had two doctor appointments last week and both did all the typical screening checks.  The Hematology office asked if I had been vaccinated in the last week, which I found odd, but many of their patients receive chemo so it might be related to that.  The other asked if I'd been vaccinated in the last two weeks.  That one was a gyn so they may have it on their standard intake to inform mammogram decisions.

Non-healthcare settings are all over the board.  DD's dance studio is super strict, which I like.  Otoh, my homeschool group went to a local place similar to Chuck e Disease's for a private maskless party for 28 kids and all their adults without any prescreenings.  (I didn't go, in case that's not obvious.)

Edited May 9, 2021 by Syllieann

[RootAnn]

20 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

similar to Chuck e Disease's

Intended typo? :)