The Vaccine Thread

[Ausmumof3]

13 hours ago, Lanny said:

Hello from Colombia: I am in "Group 2" which includes elderly people between 60 and 80 years old. They have begun vaccinating people in Group 2 and I received a phone call last Saturday about Noon. My wife spoke with the person and she asked which of the approximately 5 COVID-19 vaccines I would get and the person said something like whatever they have that day. Not all of them have arrived in Colombia so far. I think some Pfizer/BioNTech and some Sinovac from China and now some AstraZeneca.  I don't think any Moderna or Janssen (J&J has arrived yet.

For a long time, I have been interested in, if I have a choice, the Pfizer/BioNTech or the Moderna. And recently I became more interested in the Janssen (J&J)  one shot vaccine.

AstraZeneca went to the bottom of my list when I read that South Korea had suspended it, approximately 6 weeks ago. Since then, a number of things have happened to AstraZeneca which have lowered my confidence in that vaccine and it is off of my list now.

I read that all of the trials of Moderna were done in the USA.  If so that's not good IMO. 

I would like to see a recent, easy to understand short article about which vaccines offer the most protection to elderly people. 

I had read that the U.S. Government funded AstraZeneca last year when the COVID-19 crisis began, with a 3.2 billion dollar loan or grant.  At the moment that doesn't seem to be a good "investment" but it was for a good cause.  I suspect AstraZeneca will apply for and receive the EUA in the USA in the near future.

If I had to receive the vaccine today, and I had to choose between AstraZeneca and Sinovac I would choose Sinovac. I read that 70 million people have received Sinovac so far. Certainly Sinovac is not near  the top of my list, but AstraZeneca is no longer on my list.

Sinovac has a 70pc efficacy rate I believe.

[TCB]

The whole thing with AZ seems bizarre to me. It’s almost like - another day another complaint in Europe.

First they said they wouldn’t give it to older people as they questioned the efficacy in this group. Now France will only give it to people over ?50 - can’t remember exact age cut off. They put it on hold because of concerns, now they want to restrict exports so they have enough. 
Not sure if it’s all down to simple incompetence or if there are other factors at play.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, TCB said:

The whole thing with AZ seems bizarre to me. It’s almost like - another day another complaint in Europe.

First they said they wouldn’t give it to older people as they questioned the efficacy in this group. Now France will only give it to people over ?50 - can’t remember exact age cut off. They put it on hold because of concerns, now they want to restrict exports so they have enough. 
Not sure if it’s all down to simple incompetence or if there are other factors at play.

Difficult to tell to what extent there's a Brexit angle to it.

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Difficult to tell to what extent there's a Brexit angle to it.

I have wondered about that. 

[mommyoffive]

Pfizer Begins Testing Its Vaccine in Young Children (msn.com)

[Roadrunner]

Novavax is having production issues 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-novavax-delays-eu-vaccine-155402777.html

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Novavax is having production issues 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-novavax-delays-eu-vaccine-155402777.html

That's really unfortunate, because it seems like a really good vaccine, combining high efficacy with simple storage requirements. Production issues for Novavax will slow things down even more for the EU, adding to the supply issues they're already having with AZ. 😞 

[Corraleno]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:21 AM, TCB said:

The whole thing with AZ seems bizarre to me. It’s almost like - another day another complaint in Europe.

First they said they wouldn’t give it to older people as they questioned the efficacy in this group. Now France will only give it to people over ?50 - can’t remember exact age cut off. They put it on hold because of concerns, now they want to restrict exports so they have enough. 
Not sure if it’s all down to simple incompetence or if there are other factors at play.

The problem with approving AZ for people over 65 is that there is virtually no data on efficacy in that age group. The Brazilian AZ trial excluded anyone over 55 and the UK trial included very few people over 65, only 2 of whom got covid, which is not enough to draw statistically significant conclusions. So France (and several other EU countries) decided not to use AZ in people over 65 until there was better data on efficacy in that age group.

They have now decided to allow it to be used for people with preexisting conditions aged 50-75, but they still are only using Pfizer and Moderna for over 75. I suspect that the reason they are allowing it for high risk people in the 50-75 group now is that they figure protecting those people with something is better than nothing, since they simply don't have enough Pfizer and Moderna to cover everyone in high risk groups.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Corraleno
added link

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Pfizer Begins Testing Its Vaccine in Young Children (msn.com)

Yay!! That's exciting 🙂 . I really want my kids to get the vaccine as soon as possible. 

[mommyoffive]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yay!! That's exciting 🙂 . I really want my kids to get the vaccine as soon as possible. 

Me too.  None of mine are currently old enough.  Dh and I just got our first shot, so once done we could go on vacations or be less worried for the 2 of us.  But it doesn't do that much for our family as a whole.  I can't wait until my kids can be vaccinated and my stress level can go way down. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, mommyoffive said:

Me too.  None of mine are currently old enough.  Dh and I just got our first shot, so once done we could go on vacations or be less worried for the 2 of us.  But it doesn't do that much for our family as a whole.  I can't wait until my kids can be vaccinated and my stress level can go way down. 

My kids are almost 5 and 8. They are nowhere near old enough 😞 . 

[mommyoffive]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My kids are almost 5 and 8. They are nowhere near old enough 😞 . 

Yup.  I have a 5 and 8 year old too.  I am currently super jealous of families that have kids all over the age of 16.  

[JennyD]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Pfizer Begins Testing Its Vaccine in Young Children (msn.com)

I applied for DS10 to participate in the Moderna trial being held in my city, and got a form email yesterday saying that the response has been overwhelming and they will soon notify those who've been selected.  According to the email, they are going to start with 6-11yos and then move down to younger children.  The trials are also going to enroll more slowly than did the adult trials because they are going to first try different dosages in small groups before then testing the chosen dosage in a larger trial. 

[ktgrok]

16 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Me too.  None of mine are currently old enough.  Dh and I just got our first shot, so once done we could go on vacations or be less worried for the 2 of us.  But it doesn't do that much for our family as a whole.  I can't wait until my kids can be vaccinated and my stress level can go way down. 

Same!

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My kids are almost 5 and 8. They are nowhere near old enough 😞 . 

Yeah, I've got just turned 4, 8, and just turned 11. Going to be until next year it looks like. 

[Laura Corin]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The problem with approving AZ for people over 65 is that there is virtually no data on efficacy in that age group. The Brazilian AZ trial excluded anyone over 55 and the UK trial included very few people over 65, only 2 of whom got covid, which is not enough to draw statistically significant conclusions. So France (and several other EU countries) decided not to use AZ in people over 65 until there was better data on efficacy in that age group.

They have now decided to allow it to be used for people with preexisting conditions aged 50-75, but they still are only using Pfizer and Moderna for over 75. I suspect that the reason they are allowing it for high risk people in the 50-75 group now is that they figure protecting those people with something is better than nothing, since they simply don't have enough Pfizer and Moderna to cover everyone in high risk groups.

 

There are now data for over 65s 

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/astrazeneca-us-vaccine-trial-met-primary-endpoint.html

This data was later revised downwards by a few percentage points, but the overall effectiveness in older people still stands.

[Melissa Louise]

Am scheduled to get first dose of AZ on Monday and I am not complaining at all! AZ is 1000 x better than the alternative, which for me is no vaccine at all. (Pfizer vaccine was rightly used for the highest risk and we are unlikely to get more before our winter.)

Grateful for the work done on AZ, glad we are able to produce it here. Content with the data.

[Ditto]

21 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Pfizer Begins Testing Its Vaccine in Young Children (msn.com)

This is fantastic!!  I am thrilled that they are moving closer to being able to vaccinate kids under 16.  I hope it all goes well.

[frogger]

I

On 3/24/2021 at 12:56 AM, Laura Corin said:

Interesting on vaccine hesitancy 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/24/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-england-wales-being-overcome-study-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I'm happy to say my step dad got his first jab today. I honestly think my visiting him and his finding out I already had one and my not pushing him helped. I also mentioned that if he was going to get one anyway, it would help with travel. His Dad died last December and they had put off a memorial because it was too hard with Covid.  

 

Anyway, I wish I would have remembered my vaccination sticker because I think it is better and more important than an I voted sticker. 

There are some family members I don't stand a chance with but I think others just need encouragement and to see lots of people getting it and not keeling over. 😊

[Laura Corin]

BBC News - Over-70s could get booster Covid jab from September - vaccines minister
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56544236

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

BBC News - Over-70s could get booster Covid jab from September - vaccines minister
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56544236

Does this mean they suspect that it will be needed that soon?  I hope not!

[mathnerd]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Does this mean they suspect that it will be needed that soon?  I hope not!

My impression was that the boosters were for protecting against new virus variants for which they are running tests currently. Some vaccine makers will announce a 3rd dose of their vaccine which I presume is called the booster shot. If so, those mutated virus strains are a known factor that vaccine makers are taking into account for the boosters which are a good thing to have for the elderly.

[Laura Corin]

16 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Does this mean they suspect that it will be needed that soon?  I hope not!

Yes. The two vaccines we are using currently seem good against the Kent variant but maybe not others. The booster would be before the cold weather brought another wave. Those people get annual flu jabs anyway. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Melissa Louise]

Just got the AZ vaccine. Second booked for 12 weeks. I know it's not the best vaccine but I'm extremely grateful to have the opportunity to reduce my risk of serious illness if/when we get another wave.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1
 

preprint of the paper in the Astra Zeneca blood clotting mechanism.  Haven’t had a chance to read it yet.

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Just got the AZ vaccine. Second booked for 12 weeks. I know it's not the best vaccine but I'm extremely grateful to have the opportunity to reduce my risk of serious illness if/when we get another wave.

Yay!  

[Lecka]

I got my first vaccine shot from the Chickasaw Nation in Oklahoma, and they are opening up shots to people from out of state.  Anyone 16+.  It is not a long drive at all from parts of Texas.  
 

Edit:  I drove to Ardmore, and I just looked — it is less than 2 hours from Dallas.  

Edit:  The site was minutes from I-35, very easy to get to, very professional, I would recommend it to anyone.  

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Lecka

[Ausmumof3]

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Science-Brief_AstraZeneca_General_20210326_published.pdf
 

from Canada - more on the Astra Zeneca blood clot issue. Obviously low risk but enough of us are in the target age to be worth knowing what to look out for.

“What should you look out for if you received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine?
You should speak to a health care professional if you have unusual or severe symptoms after any COVID-19 vaccine. If you experience the following symptoms between 4 and 20 days after vaccination, it might indicate that you have VIPIT: a severe headache that does not go away; a seizure; difficulty moving part of your body; new blurry vision that does not go away; difficulty speaking; shortness of breath; chest pain; severe abdominal pain; new severe swelling, pain, or colour change of an arm or a leg. These symptoms can also be a sign of other serious conditions and should be assessed in an emergency department.
What should you do if you have concerning symptoms after the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine?
If your symptoms are not severe, you can see (virtually or in-person) your primary care professional. If you have severe symptoms, you should go to the nearest emergency department immediately. You should tell the health care providers who see you that you received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine and give them the date you got vaccinated. If the healthcare professional who assesses you is concerned, you may have scans and additional bloodwork collected”

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-30/pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccines-effectiveness-study/100037356
 

Very positive data for Moderna and Pfizer - 80pc effective in one shot after two weeks and 90 pc for preventing infection with the second dose.

[Melissa Louise]

22 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Science-Brief_AstraZeneca_General_20210326_published.pdf
 

from Canada - more on the Astra Zeneca blood clot issue. Obviously low risk but enough of us are in the target age to be worth knowing what to look out for.

“What should you look out for if you received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine?
You should speak to a health care professional if you have unusual or severe symptoms after any COVID-19 vaccine. If you experience the following symptoms between 4 and 20 days after vaccination, it might indicate that you have VIPIT: a severe headache that does not go away; a seizure; difficulty moving part of your body; new blurry vision that does not go away; difficulty speaking; shortness of breath; chest pain; severe abdominal pain; new severe swelling, pain, or colour change of an arm or a leg. These symptoms can also be a sign of other serious conditions and should be assessed in an emergency department.
What should you do if you have concerning symptoms after the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine?
If your symptoms are not severe, you can see (virtually or in-person) your primary care professional. If you have severe symptoms, you should go to the nearest emergency department immediately. You should tell the health care providers who see you that you received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine and give them the date you got vaccinated. If the healthcare professional who assesses you is concerned, you may have scans and additional bloodwork collected

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

[Laura Corin]

33 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

Best wishes, as one AZ to another.  This side effect, if it is caused by the vaccine, is exceedingly rare.  Worth the tiny possible risk, to me.

[kokotg]

Kind of related to some discussion upthread: Nate Silver posed a question on twitter yesterday that I thought was interesting. When we say 95% effective, is it that 5% of people won't develop immunity or that even if people develop antibodies there are some exposures that will break through that immunity anyway? I had assumed the former, but I realized I really have no idea. And that it's an important thing to know, since if it's the former it makes sense to do lots of testing for antibodies and give boosters to people who haven't developed them for whatever reason, whereas if it's the latter it makes more sense for everyone to continue taking more precautions longer. Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

 

[Scarlett]

I just got my second shot of Moderna!  I feel 10 feet tall and bullet proof.  Not really.  Well, maybe a little.  LOL

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Kind of related to some discussion upthread: Nate Silver posed a question on twitter yesterday that I thought was interesting. When we say 95% effective, is it that 5% of people won't develop immunity or that even if people develop antibodies there are some exposures that will break through that immunity anyway? I had assumed the former, but I realized I really have no idea. And that it's an important thing to know, since if it's the former it makes sense to do lots of testing for antibodies and give boosters to people who haven't developed them for whatever reason, whereas if it's the latter it makes more sense for everyone to continue taking more precautions longer. Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

 

I am curious about that too.  I heard on the news yesterday that they are now seeing that the protection is against contracting the virus. I think before we were being told it was to reduce the seriousness of the infection.

And also, heard this morning that long haulers who get the vaccine are reporting a lifting of their long term symptoms.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Scarlett said:

And also, heard this morning that long haulers who get the vaccine are reporting a lifting of their long term symptoms.

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

Yes the report I heard said it is about 40% seeing improvement. So clearly not conclusive.  

[busymama7]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

Yeah they really don't know yet.  I think the theory is that if bits of the virus are hanging around and causing long haul symptoms then the vaccine could help get rid of the virus.    But if long haul symptoms are autoimmune in nature then not as sure if it will help or hurt. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by busymama7
Spelling

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

I assume it's a combination. We know that some people don't develop immunity for even "one and done" illnesses like chicken pox. I know someone that would get chicken pox every time she was exposed. 

The good news is that the stats on serious illness are good, and the stats on death are excellent. I don't remember which rates are compared, but some of the stats on the Covid vaccines are better than we have for other vaccines. As hesitant as people are to rely totally on them for protection in a pandemic, they are very robust vaccines in the grand scheme of things.

[wathe]

5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

(ETA:  I agree, Rude!! )

I think that's more about optics and politics and, as everyone's favourite pandemic phrase goes,  "an abundance of caution", than it is about real risk mitigation.

Nearly one million Canadians have had Covid (population 35 million).  1 in 35 (so far).

22 000 have died of it = 6 in 10 000 of all Canadians.

AZ is thought to cause a very rare specific type of blood clot at a rate of between 1 per million and one per 100 000.

One's chance of getting covid and getting very ill from it or having long-term effects from it are much higher than the risk of this rare complication - this is almost certainly true on a population level.

For perspective, birth control pills increase risk of blood clotting (venous thromboembolism) 3-5 fold - absolute numbers 0.06 per 100-pill-years (or 6 per 10 000 women on the pill per year), from a baseline risk of about 0.01- 0.02per 100 women per year, or 1-2 per 10 000 w-p-y).  These are clotting risks that millions of women accept.

Pregnancy increases clotting risk a lot more than birth control pills do:  Pregnancy is 0.2 per 100 woman-years (20 per 10 000).  Postpartum 0.6 per 100 w-y or (65 per 10 000)

So BCP's can be seen as an example of accepting a small risk to avoid a bigger  risk.   Similar to covid vax, though with covid vax the risks are much, much lower for an arguably bigger payoff.

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think that's more about optics and politics and, as everyone's favourite pandemic phrase goes,  "an abundance of caution", than it is about real risk mitigation.

Nearly one million Canadians have had Covid (population 35 million).  1 in 35 (so far).

22 000 have died of it = 6 in 10 000 of all Canadians.

AZ is thought to cause a very rare specific type of blood clot at a rate of between 1 per million and one per 100 000.

One's chance of getting covid and getting very ill from it or having long-term effects from it are much higher than the risk of this rare complication - this is almost certainly true on a population level.

For perspective, birth control pills increase risk of blood clotting (venous thromboembolism) 3-5 fold - absolute numbers 0.06 per 100-pill-years (or 6 per 10 000 women on the pill per year), from a baseline risk of about 0.01- 0.02per 100 p-y, or 1-2 per 10 000 p-y).  These are clotting risks that millions of women accept.

Pregnancy increases clotting risk a lot more than birth control pills do:  Pregnancy is 0.2 per 100 woman-years (20 per 10 000).  Postpartum 0.6 per 100 w-y or (65 per 10 000)

So BCP's can be seen as an example of accepting a small risk to avoid a bigger  risk.   Similar to covid vax, though with covid vax the risks are much, much lower for an arguably bigger payoff.

ETA: if my under 55 family members were offered a dose of AZ today (instead of waiting until eligibility in JULY) they would take it, no hesitation.

 

 

 

ETA: if my under 55 family members were offered a dose of AZ today (instead of waiting until eligibility in JULY) they would take it, no hesitation.

Edited March 30, 2021 by wathe

[kokotg]

24 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I assume it's a combination. We know that some people don't develop immunity for even "one and done" illnesses like chicken pox. I know someone that would get chicken pox every time she was exposed. 

The good news is that the stats on serious illness are good, and the stats on death are excellent. I don't remember which rates are compared, but some of the stats on the Covid vaccines are better than we have for other vaccines. As hesitant as people are to rely totally on them for protection in a pandemic, they are very robust vaccines in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, on a population-wide level it probably doesn't matter much since 95% is so good. On a personal level, though, I definitely want to know if I have antibodies (my NP offered to test for me when I was in for blood work 9 days post shot #1, but no luck yet. I'll check again a couple of weeks after #2).

[wathe]

To add clarity to the Canadian situation:

We've suspended AZ only for those under 55.

My province just opened its 70+ tier yesterday.  The only under 70's getting vaxxed are special at-risk populations.

Most of our vaccine is going into 70+ year old arms anyway.  So suspending AZ for under 55's doesn't make a lot of practical difference in our role-out; it was a politically easy decision to make.

[vonfirmath]

20 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Yeah, on a population-wide level it probably doesn't matter much since 95% is so good. On a personal level, though, I definitely want to know if I have antibodies (my NP offered to test for me when I was in for blood work 9 days post shot #1, but no luck yet. I'll check again a couple of weeks after #2).

Hopefully they are looking at the right thing.

My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines do not produce antibodies that look like you have actually caught COVID-19.  But they still protect against the disease.  So I'm more than a month past my 2nd vaccination but I gave blood and am still coming back negative antibodies. It doesn't mean the vaccine didn't take.

 

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Hopefully they are looking at the right thing.

My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines do not produce antibodies that look like you have actually caught COVID-19.  But they still protect against the disease.  So I'm more than a month past my 2nd vaccination but I gave blood and am still coming back negative antibodies. It doesn't mean the vaccine didn't take.

 

I  wondered about that, but my mom goes to the same NP and hers came back positive for antibodies (no reason to suspect she's ever had covid), and the NP herself had the same experience. I assumed it was a different test, but then when I saw the actual lab results there was no indication that it was.

ETA: different test from the one to test for antibodies post covid, that is

Edited March 30, 2021 by kokotg

[Melissa Louise]

@wathethat was a really helpful post, thanks.

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, kand said:

There are a bunch of links out there about this, but basically yes, the antibody test to see if you have had Covid test for something different than the antibodies produced in response to the vaccine: https://www.local10.com/health/2021/03/17/confusion-over-covid-19-antibody-testing-and-vaccines/

Okay, I went and looked at the lab results again after reading that, and it looks like she did order the "spike test" they reference. There are a bunch of letters that mean nothing to me, but then it says, "This assay detects antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 spike protein including the receptor binding domain (RBD)."

ETA: so when I said there was no indication it was a different test I guess what I should have said was, "I have no idea what I'm looking at when I read the lab results" 😂

Edited March 30, 2021 by kokotg

[Ausmumof3]

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

The report said to look out for headaches between day four and twenty but it’s very treatable if caught early and also so rare.  I think you’ll be ok.

[KathyBC]

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

Paused on under 55. So in my province being offered in the large urban areas for those between 55-65, weighting risk factor of blood clot from Covid much greater than risk of blood clot from AZ.

[mommyoffive]

Pfizer says its COVID-19 vaccine protects younger teens (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

Pfizer/BioNTech says its Covid-19 vaccine is 100% efficacious and well tolerated in adolescents - CNN

[mommyoffive]

What parents should do if they're vaccinated but kids aren't — Dr. Wen's advice - CNN