"Woke" culture

[Home'scool]

Sorry -- I keep editing this!

Maybe I am just too old but I don't have a lot of patience for this new trend (not sure that is the right thing to call it).

My daughters are 23 and 25 and they are "woke". That basically means everything I say is wrong haha. 

Seriously, though, I feel like it is such a radical movement. All white men are "canceled". Masculine toxicity is a common topic. You can't just be non-racist, you have to be anti-racist. Some man that my daughter worked with was inappropriate at a company party. He touched her waist a few times - which is completely inappropriate - but now she refers to herself as being "sexually assaulted" which gives it a whole different vibe. She wants to go to a therapist but it has to be a woman. 

Last weekend my youngest daughter came to visit me. We started discussing politics - always a bad move- and because I did not agree with her on certain topics she stated "I don't feel safe here." I was really really angry with that one. When they come to visit me I always make sure I offer a place for them to decompress and be pampered a bit -- I make their favorite meals and watch movies they want, things like that. But now I have to watch what I say so you will feel "safe"?

It's not just my two daughters. The concept of "I don't feel safe" is a common one that I hear. Anything that doesn't jive with their mindset makes them feel "not safe". 

My family has always been into discussing politics and we have people that are both extremely liberal and extremely conservative. We used to be able to have normal debates. Now, any political discussion turns into tears, accusations of inflicting emotional pain on people and extremely aggressive retorts.

I always think about my grandmother who was born in 1900. She live through the 1918 influenza epidemic, WWI, the Depression, WWII, the 60's and 70's, JFK, RFK and Martin Luther King being assassinated - the Kent State shooting, Nixon's impeachment for crimes, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, the war on terrorism, and 9/11. She lived through all the new hair and clothing trends (imaging the difference between 1900 and 1970!) She passed away 2 days after 9/11 at 101 years old. I am sure she thought the world was going to hell in a handbasket many times. But it didn't. I think my daughters (and their generation) think that the world is on fire for the first time and that this is the worst thing we have gone through. I am tired of 20 somethings telling me what to do to save the world as if they are the first ones called upon to make changes.

I remember her telling me a story when, during the Depression, my grandfather, after looking for so long for a job because he HATED the idea of taking a handout, finally went to where they were giving out relief money. When he got up to the counter the clerk, obviously giving him a hard time because my grandfather was an Italian immigrant, told him to remove his hat. My grandfather said to him "I don't see a lady in the room and I don't see the American Flag so I am not taking off my hat." The man refused to give him any money. When my grandfather went home and told my grandmother, she said to him "That's wonderful, Andrew, but we cannot eat your hat." So my grandfather had to go back the next day and grovel to get the money so they could eat. 

I have never had to experience something like that and I am very grateful for that. So when this generation gets themselves into an uproar over things I just think of this. I'm tired of hearing how much debt their generation is in, how for the first time their generation is on the path to do worse than their parents, etc. ..... are you kidding me? 

I have found that, with age, I have achieved a level of moderation. I now know that the saying "this too shall pass" does apply to a lot of situations that I used to get wound up about. I also have learned that all the chicken littles in the world are usually way off the mark. Things I used to worry about I now realize either never materialized or, if they did, were not as bad as people would lead you to believe.

I am waiting for my daughters to get a little bit older and hopefully gain a little bit of a wider perspective. I am NOT saying that they cannot disagree with me, or that they cannot take a different political view than mine, but they have not learned that being swept up in a movement that is so extreme does not allow for any other opinions. 

Sigh. Sometimes I just want to go live off the grid and be a hermit!

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Home'scool

[East Coast Sue]

Yeah, I’ve seen it too. I agree with some of the most foundational principles but it seems way off kilter to go to extremes (in any direction). The intolerance is so clear, yet isn’t tolerance and acceptance what started this movement? 

[freesia]

Maybe you have just been blessed by a family that can disagree calmly.  While my parents were of different political persuasions and made it work well, the arguments among my extended family are somewhat legendary and have been for as long as I remember (the 1970s.)  We are a fairly functional family that just cannot discuss politics.  My mother wishes we could and pushes it and then everything explodes and then she is hurt (even though she gives as much as she gets.)  Seriously, even when everyone agreed on a candidate in 2016 and 2020 we still cannot manage a conversation.  In the 1990s I told my mother I wouldn't discuss politics with her.  When she would swing the conversation, I would say, "Mom I am not going to discuss politics with you. If you continue, I will hang up." And I did. And she stopped with me. So, my advice--no politics.  Not discussing politics is actually a thing.  There are those adages to not discuss politics, sex or religion at the dinner table. 

And gently and not saying anything about "woke" culture, your family is coming out of a tough period with a narcissitic man, right?  Your dd's view right now would probably be exactly the same even with out "woke" culture.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

Honestly, I think it’s just the age.  In your 20s you are experiencing life for the first time and a lot of these experiences are new, plus you know everything.

I don’t understand the polarization though and if that is something new. I am 39 and I’ve never experienced anything like it.  I took a lot of poly sci classes in college and have enjoyed discussion and debates over the years.  I think the discourse of ideas is important, but I’ve seen this shift into something different too.  I honestly think it’s just the age and we were all very convinced of our beliefs at some point in our 20s. I certainly was when I was 17-22.  I see things a lot differently now.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

Maybe I am just too old but I don't have a lot of patience for this new trend (not sure that is the right thing to call it).

My daughters are 23 and 25 and they are "woke". That basically means everything I say is wrong haha. 

Seriously, though, I feel like it is such a radical movement. All white men are "canceled". Masculine toxicity is a common topic. You can't just be non-racist, you have to be anti-racist. Some man that my daughter worked with was inappropriate at a company party. He touched her waist a few times - which is completely inappropriate - but now she refers to herself as being "sexually assaulted" which gives it a whole different vibe. She wants to go to a therapist but it has to be a woman. 

Last weekend my youngest daughter came to visit me. We started discussing politics - always a bad move- and because I did not agree with her on certain topics she stated "I don't feel safe here." I was really really angry with that one. When they come to visit me I always make sure I offer a place for them to decompress and be pampered a bit -- I make their favorite meals and watch movies they want, things like that. But now I have to watch what I say so you will feel "safe"?

 

It's not just my two daughters. The concept of "I don't feel safe" is a common one that I hear. Anything that doesn't jive with their mindset makes them feel "not safe". 

My family has always been into discussing politics and we have people that are both extremely liberal and extremely conservative. We used to be able to have normal debates. Now, any political discussion turns into tears, accusations of inflicting emotional pain on people and extremely aggressive retorts.

I have found that, with age, I have achieved a level of moderation. I now know that the saying "this too shall pass" does apply to a lot of situations that I used to get wound up about. I also have learned that all the chicken littles in the world are usually way off the mark. Things I used to worry about I now realize either never materialized or, if they did, were not as bad as people would lead you to believe.

I am waiting for my daughters to get a little bit older and hopefully gain a little bit of a wider perspective. I am NOT saying that they cannot disagree with me, or that they cannot take a different political view than mine, but they have not learned that being swept up in a movement that is so extreme does not allow for any other opinions. 

Sigh. Sometimes I just want to go live off the grid and be a hermit!

 

 

 

 

I don’t think you are alone 🙂.

Did they get it from regular world or university?  I have some friends who feel frustrated that they spent a lot of money to send kids to university with a resulting hatred for the parents and snowflake mentality as to ability to engage in discussion seeming to result.  The opposite of what they thought a good education might give in terms of being able to enter into a meaningful exchange of ideas. 

Maybe in a few decades we will be post-woke, or people will be tweeting (or whatever is then au courant ) about having woke from Woke. 

I think you might be able to say that if you have to walk on eggshells about what you are saying then you can’t feel emotionally safe in your own home either and ask them how they think it can be solved. That you love them and want to have them over but that you are also in emotional pain when they visit .  

[Home'scool]

Quote

yet isn’t tolerance and acceptance what started this movement? 

BINGO! 

[Home'scool]

Quote

your family is coming out of a tough period with a narcissitic man, right?  Your dd's view right now would probably be exactly the same even with out "woke" culture.

We are and I am sure he is contributing to it. He has NO tolerance for women as bosses, gays, alternate lifestyles, etc.

When he used to start raving about stuff I would say "Oh, let's hear from the white, middle class, college educated Catholic man's view on how people are not oppressed and sexual harassment does not exist in the workplace anymore or that women cannot handle positions of power!" 

[Katy]

Change your description to “cancel culture.”  Woke implies enlightened. Cancel implies close minded and rigid to the point of intolerance. 

[fairfarmhand]

Just recently read about this in the book The Coddling of the American Mind. It's a good read, You should pick it up.

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, Plum said:

Was going to suggest that. If you don’t have time, one of the authors, Jonathon Haidt, did numerous lengthy podcasts about it. He is a great interview and will give you the basic idea of the book. 

Yes, and my state's electronic library has an audio copy of the book, so that's how I listened to it. 

[Pen]

35 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

Sorry -- I keep editing this!

Maybe I am just too old but I don't have a lot of patience for this new trend (not sure that is the right thing to call it).

My daughters are 23 and 25 and they are "woke". That basically means everything I say is wrong haha. 

Seriously, though, I feel like it is such a radical movement. All white men are "canceled". Masculine toxicity is a common topic. You can't just be non-racist, you have to be anti-racist. Some man that my daughter worked with was inappropriate at a company party. He touched her waist a few times - which is completely inappropriate - but now she refers to herself as being "sexually assaulted" which gives it a whole different vibe. She wants to go to a therapist but it has to be a woman. 

Last weekend my youngest daughter came to visit me. We started discussing politics - always a bad move- and because I did not agree with her on certain topics she stated "I don't feel safe here." I was really really angry with that one. When they come to visit me I always make sure I offer a place for them to decompress and be pampered a bit -- I make their favorite meals and watch movies they want, things like that. But now I have to watch what I say so you will feel "safe"?

It's not just my two daughters. The concept of "I don't feel safe" is a common one that I hear. Anything that doesn't jive with their mindset makes them feel "not safe". 

My family has always been into discussing politics and we have people that are both extremely liberal and extremely conservative. We used to be able to have normal debates. Now, any political discussion turns into tears, accusations of inflicting emotional pain on people and extremely aggressive retorts.

I always think about my grandmother who was born in 1900. She live through the 1918 influenza epidemic, WWI, the Depression, WWII, the 60's and 70's, JFK, RFK and Martin Luther King being assassinated - the Kent State shooting, Nixon's impeachment for crimes, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, the war on terrorism, and 9/11. She lived through all the new hair and clothing trends (imaging the difference between 1900 and 1970!) She passed away 2 days after 9/11 at 101 years old. I am sure she thought the world was going to hell in a handbasket many times. But it didn't. I think my daughters (and their generation) think that the world is on fire for the first time and that this is the worst thing we have gone through. I am tired of 20 somethings telling me what to do to save the world as if they are the first ones called upon to make changes.

I remember her telling me a story when, during the Depression, my grandfather, after looking for so long for a job because he HATED the idea of taking a handout, finally went to where they were giving out relief money. When he got up to the counter the clerk, obviously giving him a hard time because my grandfather was an Italian immigrant, told him to remove his hat. My grandfather said to him "I don't see a lady in the room and I don't see the American Flag so I am not taking off my hat." The man refused to give him any money. When my grandfather went home and told my grandmother, she said to him "That's wonderful, Andrew, but we cannot eat your hat." So my grandfather had to go back the next day and grovel to get the money so they could eat. 

I have never had to experience something like that and I am very grateful for that. So when this generation gets themselves into an uproar over things I just think of this. I'm tired of hearing how much debt their generation is in, how for the first time their generation is on the path to do worse than their parents, etc. ..... are you kidding me? 

I have found that, with age, I have achieved a level of moderation. I now know that the saying "this too shall pass" does apply to a lot of situations that I used to get wound up about. I also have learned that all the chicken littles in the world are usually way off the mark. Things I used to worry about I now realize either never materialized or, if they did, were not as bad as people would lead you to believe.

I am waiting for my daughters to get a little bit older and hopefully gain a little bit of a wider perspective. I am NOT saying that they cannot disagree with me, or that they cannot take a different political view than mine, but they have not learned that being swept up in a movement that is so extreme does not allow for any other opinions. 

Sigh. Sometimes I just want to go live off the grid and be a hermit!

 

 

 

 

Have you shared about the parts in bold with your daughters?

 

[maize]

Young adults can be very intense and black-and-white in their views of the world. Time and experience usually help!

[Sneezyone]

Gently, your daughter was sexually assaulted. Sexual assault isn’t tantamount to rape. Rape is rape. I, personally, wouldn’t need counseling to deal with that but everyone is different. I don’t think we have to tolerate or excuse bad behavior because our forebears had things worse. If that were the case, I should live my life in gratitude not to be in chains. Freedom of movement and from unwanted touching is a floor not a ceiling. I don’t always say the ‘right’ things and my DH certainly doesn’t (ugh) but they see me trying to see things from their perspective and appreciate the effort. They’ve lived with my perspective their whole lives.

Things are, financially speaking, markedly different for these young people than boomers. My graduating classes were the first to be saddled with massive student loans due to disinvestment in public higher Ed. Yes, my parents bought a home for 30k with a high interest rate that has long since come down. 30k was also my mom’s (private school) law school debt in 1986. Today, legal ed is 120k plus and homes where we lived are 2-3 times that in the same poor neighborhood. Interest rates are still low and expenses have only increased. There are structural problems with the economy and access to educational opportunity, capital, and affordable housing.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I have a sibling in this age range who complains that I was able to buy a house at 28. Yes—but I also bought a cheap house that needed repair, and in a very low cost of living area where houses are cheap. The downside is that there are very few jobs, cultural activities, or services for my special needs kids.  She lives in a large city with HCOL, where she is never going to able to buy a 2300 square foot house, but there are jobs/cultural activities/etc.  She complains about another sister and BIL who were able to buy a nice house in a HCOL area by the age of 30, but she forgets BIL is an army officer who gets a pretty decent housing stipend and they’ve sacrificed a lot over the years as he’s earned his rank. 
 

So while I keep hearing the complaining that older generations had everything easier and have ruined everything for her, I just tell her every decision has trade offs.  My parents did have access to much cheaper college and other things, but the interest rates in the early 80s also screwed up a lot of things for them.   Every decision has trade offs, you can’t have everything, and there’s nothing new under the sun.

[DoraBora]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Gently, your daughter was sexually assaulted. Sexual assault isn’t tantamount to rape. Rape is rape. I, personally, wouldn’t need counseling to deal with that but everyone is different. I don’t think we have to tolerate or excuse bad behavior because our forebears had things worse. If that were the case, I should live my life in gratitude not to be in chains. Freedom of movement and from unwanted touching is a floor not a ceiling.

I'd say she was sexually harrassed.  Assault is too strong a word for that man's actions, creepy and inappropriate as they were.

Edited November 5, 2020 by DoraBora

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I'd say she was sexually harrassed.  Assault is too strong a word for that man's actions, creepy and inappropriate as they were.

It may seem that way but sexual assault is literally about physical contact. Harassment can be merely verbal or symbolic. He crossed that line. I think we’re seeing younger women draw clearer and stronger lines in the sand with respect to unwanted behavior than I did, certainly, and well firmer than my mother’s generation. To me that’s progress. What happened to me at work wasn’t ok.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Home'scool]

Quote

I'd say she was sexually harrassed.  Assault is too strong a word for that man's actions, creepy and inappropriate as they were.

I agree with this. Words have power. I remember watching Dr. Phil once and there was a divorced woman who was spending the first Christmas without her children. She said she was devastated. Dr. Phil helped her put words to it that didn't imply life-ending. I always try to remember that .

Yes, when I went to college it was much cheaper. But, the cafeteria was gross and only open for very limited hours, the library closed at 10;00 pm so good luck finding somewhere to study and when finals came the only accommodation made was quiet hours in the dorms. 

When my daughters went to college their cafeteria had won national awards for the food, it is open from 5:00 am to 10pm and then again for "late night snacks" at 11:00 pm, the library is open 24 hours and has it's own 24 hour cafe, they had food trucks and delivery from the cafeteria, bouncy houses and puppies were brought in during finals for stress relief. They did not have the stripped down education I had. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Plum said:

Assault implies some type of violence. 

It may be implied; it isn’t actually necessary. I think this of one of those times where old dogs can/should learn some new tricks.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[DoraBora]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It may seem that way but sexual assault is literally about physical contact. Harassment can be merely verbal or symbolic. He crossed that line.

Oh, I agree that he crossed a line, but I think calling something like that, especially when it's done at a party or gathering and won't progress to coerced sexual activity, isn't assault.  One could say touching someone's arm several times in a flirty way is sexual assault, I suppose, but I doubt a criminal case could be built around such an event.  (But I may be wrong in this era of "wokeness".)

I'm sorry for OPs daughter to have experienced what she did.  It would irritate the fool out of me to hear of it, but I'd want my daughter to learn to handle such things and not to think she was the victim of sexual assault.  

I just think calling it assault is overstating it.  

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

Definition of sexual assault

: illegal sexual contact that usually involves force upon a person without consent or is inflicted upon a person who is incapable of giving consent (as because of age or physical or mental incapacity) or who places the assailant (such as a doctor) in a position of trust or authority
 

Definition of sexual harassment

: uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical behavior of a sexual nature especially by a person in authority toward a subordinate (such as an employee or student)

from Websters Dictionary

The bolded is true. Usually does not suggest a requirement. It just doesn’t.

[PrincessMommy]

totally, totally agree with you Home'scool.  It makes me sad that we can't have conversations anymore.  We have to agree with a certain side. 

When one of my daughter's was home from college for the holidays she escaped in tears to her room one family gathering.  When I found her to discuss it she said she was completely undone because 2 people were having a private conversation about a certain politican she didnt like.   Really???!!  People can't even have private conversations that you *may* overhear?  Did I really raise my kids to be so thin-skinned? 

I was repremanded a few years ago from another daughter for using punctuation in texts.  Apparently I was being offensive.  Periods are now verbotten.  Ugh.  

I feel like I'm walking on eggshells anytime I'm talking to my kids.  I have no idea who I might be offending.   

 

[prairiewindmomma]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It may seem that way but sexual assault is literally about physical contact. Harassment can be merely verbal or symbolic. He crossed that line. I think we’re seeing younger women drawer clearer and stronger lines in the sand with respect to unwanted behavior than I did, certainly, and well firmer than my mothers generation. To me that’s progress. What happened to me at work wasn’t ok.

It is about physical contact....

Sexual assault or sexual battery (depends on the state that you are in) typically requires contact with a sexual organ or the penetration of a sexual organ but sexual harassment, in terms of the workplace, has a different set of standards (based on workplace contracts, EEOC, etc.). Sexual harassment at work can include unwanted touching.

Y'all. We're getting derailed here. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Oh, I agree that he crossed a line, but I think calling something like that, especially when it's done at a party or gathering and won't progress to coerced sexual activity, isn't assault.  One could say touching someone's arm several times in a flirty way is sexual assault, I suppose, but I doubt a criminal case could be built around such an event.  (But I may be wrong in this era of "wokeness".)

I'm sorry for OPs daughter to have experienced what she did.  It would irritate the fool out of me to hear of it, but I'd want my daughter to learn to handle such things and not to think she was the victim of sexual assault.  

I just think calling it assault is overstating it.  

I would certainly want my child to know how to handle it, not the least of which would be asking the individual to stop and/or not repeat the behavior and report the incident to HR. That said, who among us felt that empowered in the workplace in their teens and 20s? I didn’t. We certainly don’t know whether this is grooming behavior either.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

It's interesting to me that there's a conflating in conversation here of the issues of 1. having less tolerance for bad behavior by others and 2. being emotionally fragile/rigid.  I don't think those two things necessarily go hand in hand. 

[Home'scool]

 

Quote

Did I really raise my kids to be so thin-skinned? 

This makes me feel so much better because that is EXACTLY what I am thinking!

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It's interesting to me that there's a conflating in conversation here of the issues of 1. having less tolerance for bad behavior by others and 2. being emotionally fragile/rigid.  I don't think those two things necessarily go hand in hand. 

I don’t either. I think there are real issues that young people are bringing up and also that *some* young people are more sensitive to them. DH has seen this in his sailors who cannot handle anything above a whisper in tone of voice without thinking you’re shouting. That that particular concern seems overblown doesn’t mean some of their other concerns are real and valid.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SereneHome]

I don't discard emotions but not everything has to be Level 10. I don't think it's a generational / age thing, I think it's comfortable life thing.

People who are too busy, don't have the time or mental energy to be thinking about counseling bc someone touched them for a minute and a half. And not everything has to have a "term". Let's save that for more serious things.

If someone touches your boob and you need counseling - I think you are leading a very charmed life.

Oh and if my kid ever tells me that they don't feel safe in my house, I might take them to either homeless shelter or abused women shelter - and then we can talk about not feeling safe. Good grief!

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

totally, totally agree with you Home'scool.  It makes me sad that we can't have conversations anymore.  We have to agree with a certain side. 

When one of my daughter's was home from college for the holidays she escaped in tears to her room one family gathering.  When I found her to discuss it she said she was completely undone because 2 people were having a private conversation about a certain politican she didnt like.   Really???!!  People can't even have private conversations that you *may* overhear?  Did I really raise my kids to be so thin-skinned? 

 

Totally agree

I have been trying to figure out this conversation with those who disagree problem. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I was repremanded a few years ago from another daughter for using punctuation in texts.  Apparently I was being offensive.  Periods are now verbotten.  Ugh.  

I feel like I'm walking on eggshells anytime I'm talking to my kids.  I have no idea who I might be offending.   

 

 

It seems like the standard for breaking down and crying has gotten very low. 

I wonder if talking about the young men (technically at average age 20, many still minor children then?) who landed at Normandy (and similar) to fight and often give their lives for at least relative liberty and freedom (compared to if Hitler’s Germany had won) would be at all useful.  

In some ways it may seem like parents saying when I was your age I walked 5 miles to get to school, in snow, uphill both directions, and be dismissed.

But if it is about generations before rather than parent vs child perhaps it would get more of a listen. 

[Home'scool]

 

Quote

having less tolerance for bad behavior by others and 2. being emotionally fragile/rigid.  I don't think those two things necessarily go hand in hand. 

This is where I think their generation is being led astray. When their is bad behavior by others they are not told how to deal with it or how to move on from it .... it is all about declaring that you don't feel safe and expecting everyone to stop and move the earth so that you feel better. When do they learn inner strenght?

[Home'scool]

Quote

Oh and if my kid ever tells me that they don't feel safe in my house, I might take them to either homeless shelter or abused women shelter - and then we can talk about not feeling safe. Good grief!

Believe me, I immediately said to her "If you don't feel safe in my home then please, pack up and leave!" She stopped saying she didn't feel safe after that.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Home'scool said:

 

This is where I think their generation is being led astray. When their is bad behavior by others they are not told how to deal with it or how to move on from it .... it is all about declaring that you don't feel safe and expecting everyone to stop and move the earth so that you feel better. When do they learn inner strenght?

You learn it through self advocacy. How many parents are encouraging that in big and small ways rather than trying to smooth out each and every bump and provide a glide path to happiness? 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

 This is where I think their generation is being led astray. When their is bad behavior by others they are not told how to deal with it or how to move on from it .... it is all about declaring that you don't feel safe and expecting everyone to stop and move the earth so that you feel better. When do they learn inner strenght?

And is it inner strength you need to deal with sexual harassment, say? Sometimes, things become less tolerable because people talk about them so much, yes. But I think we tried many years of ignoring the problem, so perhaps more yelling about it is useful. 

I have some issues with aspects of "woke" culture, although I don't like that wording. For one thing, while I don't think the hysteria about cancel culture is warranted, I've absolutely seen progressives be intolerant of all conversations in my online circles, and it bothers me a lot. 

However, that doesn't mean I need to throw out the baby with the bathwater and declare all concerns invalid. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I've seen progressive be intolerant.

I've seen conservatives be intolerant.

I think intolerance is an interesting thing. There are some behaviors we simply should not tolerate.  Ideas and feelings are perhaps something we should seek to understand more in the other person.

[PrincessMommy]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Totally agree

I have been trying to figure out this conversation with those who disagree problem. 

 

 

 

It seems like the standard for breaking down and crying has gotten very low. 

I wonder if talking about the young men (technically at average age 20, many still minor children then?) who landed at Normandy (and similar) to fight and often give their lives for at least relative liberty and freedom (compared to if Hitler’s Germany had won) would be at all useful.  

In some ways it may seem like parents saying when I was your age I walked 5 miles to get to school, in snow, uphill both directions, and be dismissed.

But if it is about generations before rather than parent vs child perhaps it would get more of a listen. 

no we can't, because then we get dismissed with a "Okay Boomer".     If we don't agree our opinion is irrelevant.   Or worse, they will mention something along the lines that we went into WWII to prop up the American economy.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

I think intolerance is an interesting thing. There are some behaviors we simply should not tolerate.  Ideas and feelings are perhaps something we should seek to understand more in the other person.

I tend to think the ability to have conversations about controversial ideas is an important one. And it's also a rare one. Most people respond with reflexive defensiveness when you call them out on their assumptions. 

[Bootsie]

I have been teaching college students since the mid 1980s--and I have seen a real shift in the past few years, not only among my undergraduate students buy also the graduate students I am teaching.  I teach finance and economics, so I can't imagine what it is like to teach in some areas which tend to deal with more sensitive topics.  I had one last year who did not feel safe in my finance class because I kept using a trigger word--"money".  I could not figure out a way to teach finance without talking about money so that she could feel safe.  

[Moonhawk]

1 minute ago, PrincessMommy said:

no we can't, because then we get dismissed with a "Okay Boomer".     If we don't agree our opinion is irrelevant.   Or worse, they will mention something along the lines that we went into WWII to prop up the American economy.  

I mean, if a young person doesn't agree with an older generation, they get "You're too young" or "you need to grow up" or "You're too sensitive" or "In my day..." etc. etc.  --> their opinion is irrelevant due to their age. Source: This thread. 

This isn't a "this new generation" problem. It is a problem that seems to come from a cultural level, where we encourage the CULT part of the culture and reject ideas that conflict with our own.

Homes'cool, I'm sorry about the safe place comment. I see people in their 30s and 40s use the safe place terminology, so I don't think it's just about their age as much as the culture they are choosing to be a part of. The choice may be a part of immaturity, or maybe availability (if that's what is easy for them to find and what their friends are part of). And sometimes we say things without actually thinking through what they mean -- as it seems your daughter realized once you said she could leave if it were really true.

I think, though, that framing this as an us vs them generation difference does a disservice to both sides. (Which you didn't necessarily do, but seems to be the trend of the thread)

 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

Just recently read about this in the book The Coddling of the American Mind. It's a good read, You should pick it up.

By the way, I do plan on working through this book with my dd18, dd15, and ds12 at some point in the next few years. 

[Pen]

23 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

no we can't, because then we get dismissed with a "Okay Boomer".     If we don't agree our opinion is irrelevant.   Or worse, they will mention something along the lines that we went into WWII to prop up the American economy.  

 

Then they have been inadequately educated. 

 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I mean, if a young person doesn't agree with an older generation, they get "You're too young" or "you need to grow up" or "You're too sensitive" or "In my day..." etc. etc.  --> their opinion is irrelevant due to their age. Source: This thread. 

This isn't a "this new generation" problem. It is a problem that seems to come from a cultural level, where we encourage the CULT part of the culture and reject ideas that conflict with our own.

Homes'cool, I'm sorry about the safe place comment. I see people in their 30s and 40s use the safe place terminology, so I don't think it's just about their age as much as the culture they are choosing to be a part of. The choice may be a part of immaturity, or maybe availability (if that's what is easy for them to find and what their friends are part of). And sometimes we say things without actually thinking through what they mean -- as it seems your daughter realized once you said she could leave if it were really true.

I think, though, that framing this as an us vs them generation difference does a disservice to both sides. (Which you didn't necessarily do, but seems to be the trend of the thread)

 

 

It is not necessarily generational.  I have a relative in her 70’s who has embraced Woke culture. 

[Pen]

49 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I don't discard emotions but not everything has to be Level 10. I don't think it's a generational / age thing, I think it's comfortable life thing.

 

 

49 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Oh and if my kid ever tells me that they don't feel safe in my house, I might take them to either homeless shelter or abused women shelter - and then we can talk about not feeling safe. Good grief!

 

If a kid told me they don’t feel safe I would first want to listen to hear what it is about—a sibling beating up on them, or some incest problem, I would definitely want to know about, and take very seriously.

However, conversation or words that aren’t what they want is not in the same category generally.  In that case I would want to teach them to speak up to me politely and when appropriate about their own thoughts, but that just as they are entitled to their own thoughts, so are other people, including parents.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Pen

[saraha]

2 hours ago, Home'scool said:

Last weekend my youngest daughter came to visit me. We started discussing politics - always a bad move- and because I did not agree with her on certain topics she stated "I don't feel safe here." I was really really angry with that one. When they come to visit me I always make sure I offer a place for them to decompress and be pampered a bit -- I make their favorite meals and watch movies they want, things like that. But now I have to watch what I say so you will feel "safe"?

This must have hurt a lot. My feelings would have been very hurt. I am sorry

Edited November 5, 2020 by saraha
I had used the word devastated before reading t!he response about the word devastated

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Someone did touch my boobs, many someone's. I had to carry an empty giant file to keep from my boob being touched even when covered from neck to ankles with just my hands and feet showing and a scarf pinned in front of said boobs. It was utterly dehumanizing and violating. My life was far from charmed. 

How many times does one's boob need to touched, brushed or should it be groped or cupped to not be a special snowflake who complains and not be accused of leading a charmed life ? 

And this is the kind of thing people forget about when they start idealizing "the good old days." 

Sexual harassment was tolerated and even encouraged in LOTS of "traditional cultures." It's still REALLY HARD to get rid of senior men who routinely sexually harass their subordinates -- I know something about that, actually. You might argue that people have become too sensitive about it, but that's in response to a real problem. 

[Carol in Cal.]

59 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Then they have been inadequately educated. 

 

More likely, they have been REeducated at college and now believe that they have the Real Truth that we have kept from them.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Carol in Cal.

[EKS]

2 hours ago, East Coast Sue said:

The intolerance is so clear, yet isn’t tolerance and acceptance what started this movement? 

If you're interested in the origins of the movement, I highly recommend the book Cynical Theories.  

[Moonhawk]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

 

People who are too busy, don't have the time or mental energy to be thinking about counseling bc someone touched them for a minute and a half. And not everything has to have a "term". Let's save that for more serious things.

If someone touches your boob and you need counseling - I think you are leading a very charmed life.

Oh and if my kid ever tells me that they don't feel safe in my house, I might take them to either homeless shelter or abused women shelter - and then we can talk about not feeling safe. Good grief!

But isn't this the life we should be trying to achieve for our children? Don't we want to raise [in this case] women who are so confident in their bodily autonomy and understand that there is no reason they have to accept sexually-suggestive touch, especially in a work environment? Are we jealous of this type of confidence? Are we trying to stop them from having something, simply because we did not?

If it had been her breasts cupped a couple of times, would that have been worse? If yes, why? Why is her waist, which is closer to her vagina and the part of her body that pivots and restricts her ability to turn/move away, a less threatening place to be touched? Does it have to be only after 5 times, for more that 5 seconds each? Why are we putting limits on her bodily autonomy? 

Our generations have been indoctrinated and conditioned to accept this and much worse. I don't think that means we need to say, "Well we put it up with it and so you should, too." Good for these younger women that they have been raised to understand their worth and their boundaries.

FTR, I do not see it as an act needing a counselor (that seems to be a separate issue re emotional coping, it doesn't negate her labeling it as assault), BUT it is good to see that there are some people who have a much greater confidence in how they should be treated and are willing to call out disgusting behavior -- even if the disgusting behavior could be/has been worse, it is still disgusting.

TLDR - I'm not saying literally that bood touch = counseling, but I'm saying we should be aiming for the "charmed life" for our daughters that they understand how to stand up for themselves. Not everyone can have it right now, but that doesn't mean we should take it away from those that can.

eta because I posted mid-thought. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Moonhawk

[prairiewindmomma]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

More likely, they have be REeducated at college and now believe that they have the Real Truth that we have kept from them.

What do you mean by this? 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, EKS said:

If you're interested in the origins of the movement, I highly recommend the book Cynical Theories.  

 

I wanted to suggest that too and could not remember the name.

I think it is in part by same author as the Impossible Conversations book I have been recommending. 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

But isn't this the life we should be trying to achieve for our children? Don't we want to raise [in this case] women who are so confident in their bodily autonomy and understand that there is no reason they have to accept sexually-suggestive touch, especially in a work environment? Are we jealous of this type of confidence? Are we trying to stop them from having something, simply because we did not?

 

How about “please don’t touch me,” plus start a diary. If it repeats take it up chain of command or similar. 

 

[DoraBora]

7 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

But isn't this the life we should be trying to achieve for our children? Don't we want to raise [in this case] women who are so confident in their bodily autonomy and understand that there is no reason they have to accept sexually-suggestive touch, especially in a work environment? Are we jealous of this type of confidence? Are we trying to stop them from having something, simply because we did not?

If it had been her breasts cupped a couple of times, would that have been worse? If yes, why? Why is her waist, which is closer to her vagina and the part of her body that pivots and restricts her ability to turn/move away, a less threatening place to be touched? Does it have to be only after 5 times, for more that 5 seconds each? Why are we putting limits on her bodily autonomy? 

Our generations have been indoctrinated and conditioned to accept this and much worse. I don't think that means we need to say, "Well we put it up with it and so you should, too." Good for these younger women that they have 

FTR, I do not see it as an act needing a counselor (that seems to be a separate issue re emotional coping, it doesn't negate her labeling it as assault), BUT it is good to see that there are some people who have a much greater confidence in how they should be treated and are willing to call out disgusting behavior -- even if the disgusting behavior could be/has been worse, it is still disgusting.

Well, I think so.  A man can "side hug" me or dance with me and touch my waist (even my father or brother could do this) and it doesn't seem overly sexual, regardless of my waist's location.  If a man actually "cups" my breast, that's a different thing entirely.  

Again, I think the man repeatedly touching the young woman's waist was inappropriate and wrong.