Holiday musings

[fairfarmhand]

In various holiday threads I see a common theme of “I hope I’m the parent that my adult kids look forward to and want to visit when they’re grown.”

There are also stories of obligation where parents/grandparents guilt People into visiting for holidays. Where there’s drama dread and unpleasant circumstances surrounding holidays.

my question is this:

when these kinds of people were young, did they feel that they wanted to be parents/grandparents that others would want to visit? IF so, what changed? Did they quit being pleasant and charming with age?

or did they never feel that obligation to be nice or welcoming or whatever? That people just “owed” them a nice holiday because “I’m the grandma/grandpa now.”

i really don’t want to be that kind of person but i dread finding out that with age, I somehow got there! 

Am I making sense? 

So in my case:

I have a family member who did the rounds at holidays all when he kids were young. They seldom were at home with just them and the kids for the holidays and in fairness this person enjoys visiting and chatting and catching up with others and having big mobs of family around. So that was this person’s idea of a perfect holiday.

when this person’s children grew up they were appalled at the idea that the adult kids would want to be home with their own children for holidays. First, this person felt that holidays were supposed to be surrounded by mobs of family and second, when the adult children didn’t play along, this person was at home alone with their holiday “ruined”. They feel that now that they’re the grandparents others should be making holiday plans around them. People don’t play the game and this person is resentful and controlling when the family does get together and that takes the fun out of the holidays.

bottom line: this person does feel entitled and can’t embrace the fact that holidays can be different but still good. They’ve never been able to think flexibly on the matter.

 

has anyone else thought this through? What makes so many people be so difficult at the holidays? How can the rest of us avoid this phenomenon? Is it possible to do that?

[Lecka]

Ime it’s the same people who are difficult about everything.  

[JustEm]

I think a lot of it has to do with people wanting to celebrate the holidays their way. The problem arises when two people have different ideas of what a holiday celebration should be. It can be hard to compromise when you know you want be happy celebrating a different way. 

It also has to do with how one is raised. I have a close friend who has the unreasonable parents and in-laws who make the holidays all about how they want to celebrate no matter how inconvenient it is. My friend has not stood up for herself and said no, so she continues with miserable holidays. The biggest problem is, she does the same things to her kids in other areas. She wants the girls in matching outfits for pictures but her oldest hates it and complains endlessly because it embarrasses her to dress like her toddler sister. So, my friend is creating the same environment with her kids that she hates getting from her parents. 

I have pointed this out to her and she just doesn't see it. She says she is the parent and gets to make those decisions. And she makes those decisions because that is what she wants. But when I point out to her that her mom is the same way she simply says, 'well when they're adults I won't get a say.' but I don't think she'll actually change at all. She will just have resentful kids who don't like spending the holidays with her.

[Lecka]

When my parents got divorced, not in the first year I guess, but over time, instead of moping about, my dad and step-mom volunteered for a town Thanksgiving dinner and a church Christmas ministry when we were not with them. My mom and step-dad host a meal for their friends who don’t have a family celebration on the day of, because of grown kids going to in-laws or celebrating with their own family.

The person from op’s post is choosing to be difficult.  They can mope or they can find something else to do.

I just have such little tolerance for this.  It is one of those things.  Maybe op puts up with it more, and maybe I would put up with it more, but it can ruin things for those in the family less interested in being conciliatory.  
 

One of my sisters will NEVER come for holidays with my side.  NEVER.  That is where having an attitude has gotten our family.  And oh look — everyone is capable of acting like an adult after all.  But it is too late for one of my sisters, there was too much “tit for tat” when she was younger (like in her 20s) and she said it was too stressful to visit over holidays.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I’m also doubtful the person from op’s post couldn’t attend with one of the families.  Frequently that is possible and a good solution.  Pouting at home I think is pretty ridiculous.

Really I just have not seen this kind of age-related change.  I have seen age-related changes but not like — people going totally from being reasonable and agreeable, to being this difficult.  It is a pretty high level of passive-aggressiveness I think.  
 

 

[JustEm]

This is the first year we have any issues with holiday gatherings and I don't really know what to think of it. Since dh's parents separated we have done the same thing every year. Christmas Eve in the afternoon we exchange gifts with fil before heading to his mom's house for dinner and more gifts with extended family. Then Christmas brunch with mil and Chrismas dinner with my family. This has worked wonderfully for ten years and no one has ever mentioned an issue.

This year fil basically told us he was doing brunch the Sunday before Christmas to exchange gifts. He didn't ask just told us. When we offered an alternative that worked for us because Sunday doesn't he said, 'well we're hosting brunch and you guys can come if you want.' no compromise at all. 

We have no idea where this change came from and why he is being unreasonable but it really sucks that he won't work with us to figure something out. We won't allow it to ruin our celebration but it does make me sad that he won't be a part of it. Or that he will but there will be resentment on his part because he is stubborn like that when he doesn't get his way. I hope this isn't the start of years of disappointment.

[fairfarmhand]

15 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The bolded is the answer to the underlined question.  

Visiting and chatting and catching up with others and having gobs of family all around is my idea of the perfect holiday.  I absolutely take my kids to visit grandparents and we host here as well.  (and to be clear, tell my kids that they are going to visit grandma and they LOVE it and are so excited, every time.)

When all my kids grow up, I do anticipate that yes, they will want to visit us and/or host us for this holiday or that.  The difference is, I am not a resentful controlling person and I would expect, as currently happens with the one adult grown child that I do have that lives 2 hours away from me, that holiday plans are done in coordination with each other, which respect for various situations and needs and so on.  Flexibility on dates, times, activities etc, are exactly what I expect to doing.  If one or more of my kids moves across the country, I would never expect that person to fly out to see us every year...or even every other year really.  I would expect that *SOME* years they would want to come see us, and *SOME* years we would go see them and *SOME* years maybe everyone stays home.  And I would expect that sometimes, that visiting and celebration happens before the holiday, or after.  Sometimes, people might stay in the home, sometimes, people might stay in hotels.  

 

Holidays shouldn't be about unreasonable expectations or overly burdensome obligations.  They should be times when people who love each other want to get together to celebrate together, and work WITH each other, with mutual respect, to create a celebration that everyone enjoys.  Compromise, understanding and love, not resentment, controlling, selfish behavior.

For our family, the person referenced could never come to terms that the adult children moved AWAY! And that does make getting together much more difficult.

My own little family lives 2 hours away from family members on dhs side, 3 hours away from my family. 

 

But I also see the same dynamic playing out in the lives of my friends who live in the same town as their extended family. I know someone who has FOUR Thanksgiving meals to attend in two days. And people get mad if they dont go to each one. Theres' no grace to go "Oh, yes, spend this Thankgiving with your dh's family and we'll see you for Christmas eve." 

This sounds equally horrid.

5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

When my parents got divorced, not in the first year I guess, but over time, instead of moping about, my dad and step-mom volunteered for a town Thanksgiving dinner and a church Christmas ministry when we were not with them. My mom and step-dad host a meal for their friends who don’t have a family celebration on the day of, because of grown kids going to in-laws or celebrating with their own family.

The person from op’s post is choosing to be difficult.  They can mope or they can find something else to do.

I just have such little tolerance for this.  It is one of those things.  Maybe op puts up with it more, and maybe I would put up with it more, but it can ruin things for those in the family less interested in being conciliatory.  
 

One of my sisters will NEVER come for holidays with my side.  NEVER.  That is where having an attitude has gotten our family.  And oh look — everyone is capable of acting like an adult after all.  But it is too late for one of my sisters, there was too much “tit for tat” when she was younger (like in her 20s) and she said it was too stressful to visit over holidays.  

The bolded is what I hope will happen for my dh and I if we don't have adult kids nearby. Make the holidays about serving others and making our own joy, even if our kids can't be there.

[ScoutTN]

Just plain selfishness or immaturity - being unable or unwilling to see and understand another's point of view, to love others as oneself.

I have seen similar troubles with conflicting ideas of what a vacation should be: activity and adventure vs. rest and lots of unstructured down time . I also think that extrovert/introvert personalities can play into these things.

Edited November 20, 2019 by ScoutTN

[fairfarmhand]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I’m also doubtful the person from op’s post couldn’t attend with one of the families.  Frequently that is possible and a good solution.  Pouting at home I think is pretty ridiculous.

Really I just have not seen this kind of age-related change.  I have seen age-related changes but not like — people going totally from being reasonable and agreeable, to being this difficult.  It is a pretty high level of passive-aggressiveness I think.  
 

 

Person could indeed attend holiday celebrations at adult kids' homes, however, person believes that this is not a "real" way of celebrating holidays. And it's "so sad" that we can't get together with everyone.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Lecka]

I suspect, maybe not you, but maybe some others make up excuses to avoid this person, whether of their own accord or because their spouse thinks it is ridiculous how this person acts.  Seriously.  That is the problem with big family gatherings with one difficult person at the center.  It only takes a small number of people not going along with it for it to all fall apart.

If this person was less difficult I bet people would go out of their way to make a large gathering happen every few years.  

[fairfarmhand]

One reason that I've tried to be a bit assertive in this area, making plans for the holidays that I enjoy, is that I know that my children WILL grow up and I want to have enjoyed the holidays with them when they were little in most of the ways that I wanted to. So that I don't think "Well, I did my time, now it's my turn to have it all my way." when I'm older. I know they're growing up and will eventually have holiday plans that may or may not include me. 

Also, I've my kids over and over. When your kids are small, it's ok with me if you have Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at home with them, enjoying your little family. I may come over and crash your party if that's ok with you, but I won't guilt you into making the rounds of relatives because Christmas Day is no fun when you drag whiny toddlers and screaming babies from hither to thither. 

I don't want my kids/grandkids to feel obligated to get out of their pajamas and drive over to see me because I inisist that Christmas Day MUST happen at my house.

Also, I do hope that I can be very reasonable about the time they spend with spouses' families at the holidays. That one may be a bit tougher for me.  

(All of this supposes that my dh and I are in perfectly fine health and capable of visiting others. If we are 95 years old and wheelchair bound, I must say that a Christmas day visit would be quite thoughtful.)

Maybe if all my adult kids and grandkids are busy on Christmas eve/day, I will go someplace warm and sandy...

Edited November 20, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Lecka]

You can be reasonable without “liking” it, like — it’s your first choice.  That doesn’t mean you can’t be reasonable even if you say privately “I wish they were coming, I wish they were staying longer.”  But if that is how things work out then you can be reasonable while not having it be your top preference.  It is how reasonable people act.  Not like it’s always easy — but making the best of things and being understanding, instead of pouting and having hissy fits.  Seriously the person from the op is acting in a very childish way.  

[Chris in VA]

I expect my adult kids with families to spent Christmas morning at home. Their home. 

We don't live in the actual house my dd grew up in (there for 17 years). Christmas morning will never be the same as it was for me because the place is different. Funny how that is for me. Anyway, as far as being the grandparents and wanting to be visited, have things their way, etc., I think it is somewhat generational. We have lost the idea of catering to...I mean, respecting....the ederly members of a family, and it is definitely seen by many to be a right of getting older. But one can be respectful without giving in to tantrums. Part of me does understand, though, the sad feeling; things do change, and it is natural to feel nostalgic and sad when one has to give up "the happy way it used to be."

[Lecka]

Ironically — the person does believe that pouting at home is an acceptable way to celebrate the holiday!  That is the “real” way they do choose to spend the holiday!  

I wouldn’t say it was pouting at all if they enjoyed staying home and attending their home church services, etc, and having their own celebration, I think that is great, too.  But it sounds like the person would rather pout than not get his/her way and wants everyone else to feel guilty about it.  And it is childish.  I know I can’t always *change* attitudes like that in my kids, but I definitely don’t have to go along with it.  

[Lecka]

We are not the first generation to have adults marry who didn’t grow up in the same town, and have to split holidays between in-laws, at a minimum.  

[May]

DH and I have no expectations when it comes to the holidays and our daughters being with us. We always had Christmas in our own home. It never occurred to me that our adult children would want something different. If they one day do, fine but no guilt from us.

[Lecka]

I do agree everybody should make compromises. 
 

But somebody pouting at home is not compromising.  
 

If everything was being handled in a compromising way, yes, I would also expect it to go the parent/grandparent’s way sometimes, too.  
 

But if this is a representative sample of how this person acts, then no, it is not owed.  
 

If this is not representative, and they are actually more agreeable, then I do agree — it would be a fair compromise to have it go their way sometimes.  

[HomeAgain]

I suspect many of us grew up in families where adults did things because it was the "right" thing, and they didn't want to make waves.  When our generation grew up, we may have chosen other paths and that does not compute with the older generation's feeling of "right".  It causes friction.  These are people who didn't do it because they wanted to, but feel that since they did, everyone should have to.

When I say I would hope I'm the kind of parent my kids want to visit, it means I always want them to be comfortable here, and their spouses and children comfortable here.  I'm not going to care if they choose their own way of celebrating the holidays as long as it makes them happy.  Goodness knows I plan on ditching the whole thing as soon as the last one is out of the house and dh and I are spending one Christmas at WDW - together and without kids.

[Lecka]

I do understand people “feeling” that way, but sitting home alone year after year pouting — I don’t get it.  I don’t think it’s reasonable.  Having feelings of wishing they hosted a large gathering, yes, choosing to stay home alone and pout, no.  
 

I mean — I understand that is what this person is choosing, but I feel pretty free to think that plenty of other people in a similar situation manage to adjust.  

[skimomma]

14 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

The only caveat I have is if that choice is the same year after year after year, at which point it makes sense, IMO, for a parent to feel hurt and rejected.  It's one thing for people to want to stay at home one year, or two, or spend a year with this family member or that....it's another to NEVER make the effort to spend time with the people you love and who raised you, because you *want* to stay at home.  At some point, I think that at some point, the adult child should make some compromises....just like the parent should.  Like every relationship we have, there should be a two way street.  

 

We no longer travel for the holidays and we are likely never going to in the future.  And yes, it is because we *want* to stay home for holidays.  That does not mean we don't love our families.  

[skimomma]

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Inflexibility, otoh, will breed inflexibility in response.

 

Yep.  After years of schlepping all over the state in terrible weather to try (and fail) to meet everyone's inflexible expectations, we just quit.  We still love our families but all my flexibility cards got used up years ago.  We visit at other times, which is still never enough or meets the ever moving target of expectations but at least we no longer dread the holidays for the precious few left with a child at home.

Edited November 20, 2019 by skimomma

[JustEm]

27 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Agree with it being oppressive to make demands and the idea of being "appalled" at the adult child's choice.

The only caveat I have is if that choice is the same year after year after year, at which point it makes sense, IMO, for a parent to feel hurt and rejected.  It's one thing for people to want to stay at home one year, or two, or spend a year with this family member or that....it's another to NEVER make the effort to spend time with the people you love and who raised you, because you *want* to stay at home.  At some point, I think that at some point, the adult child should make some compromises....just like the parent should.  Like every relationship we have, there should be a two way street.  

I disagree with this. I think it is completely reasonable to never travel for the holidays even if that is what your extended family wants. My sister lives 1000 miles away from the rest of the family. She came to Christmas once after having kids and it was just not enjoyable for her in many ways. Her family decided after that to never travel at the holidays again and that is perfectly acceptable.

She still comes for 2 or 3 weeks every summer and brings Christmas gifts then. It has been a wonderful tradition and would likely never happen had anyone put expectations on a her family to visit every few years.

[MysteryJen]

I have been trapped in family obligation for Christmas Eve forever. I see no real way out of it. We go to my mom's house. She likes to spend money on presents (but she wants me to tell her exactly what to buy- sidestepping the whole effort of getting to know your grandchildren thing- the nagging commences in September). My sister comes- though she spends the year refusing to talk to me and my brother is there, he doesn't care- he has no children.

It is so frustrating- like a command performance and the kids (who used to love it) are less enamoured now as they have more perspective on family life. It is frustrating because we live 25 minutes away and somehow all of our worth as children depends on showing up on Christmas Eve. And she does not come to our house or kids' activities even when invited.

It has taken years for me to break the passive agressive chains of every single holiday spent at her house. But Christmas... we tried to plan a vacation this year- but it was too expensive for all of us to go away.

So far, all my kids want to come home for the holidays and we help them out with flights to do so- but when they have families and demanding jobs- I will be flexible and loving and NOTHING like my mom. 

[skimomma]

As to the larger question in the OP, I have pondered it myself.  I am in my mid-40s as are most of my friends.  We all have kids at home still.  We almost ALL have some sort of impossible situation with at least one parent.  And difficult situations with most of our parents.  Statistically, this has to mean something happens as you age.  The theory we have come to is that as you age, you lose your ability and/or desire to keep your flaws from leaking out.  With that in mind, I hope whatever my leaky flaws end up being, they are not ones that threaten a healthy relationship with my family.  

[fairfarmhand]

19 minutes ago, skimomma said:

As to the larger question in the OP, I have pondered it myself.  I am in my mid-40s as are most of my friends.  We all have kids at home still.  We almost ALL have some sort of impossible situation with at least one parent.  And difficult situations with most of our parents.  Statistically, this has to mean something happens as you age.  The theory we have come to is that as you age, you lose your ability and/or desire to keep your flaws from leaking out.  With that in mind, I hope whatever my leaky flaws end up being, they are not ones that threaten a healthy relationship with my family.  

So I suppose that means I need to work on my personal flaws now so that they’re not so grating as I get older. 

Learn to speak my mind in a loving way now.

force myself to be positive .

make my tongue more affirming so as I settle into old age I’ll be less grating I Those I love.

[MysteryJen]

I do think inflexibility around the holidays can be part of aging, but it goes with a general inflexibility about life. My mother has always been controlling about the holidays however- ironically, we never, ever went to my grandparents house- either side- for a holiday. 

my dmil only asks to be included in whatever we decide to do for a holiday. She asks, "what I can bring?" and never complains that the kids might be on their phones or invite their friends over or dh takes a nap or I watch football. Needless to say, we see quite a lot of dmil.

But sometimes people are just who they are and the holidays make it worse.

[JustEm]

45 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

IOW, your sister make some effort to visit and even participate in some sort of celebration and tradition with the people she loves?

That's not the sort of situation I was talking about in the post you quoted.  I was talking about people who never make the effort.  Who never have the flexibility ever.

I also have a sister that lives 1000 miles away.  The last time she came out for.............ANYTHING........was 3 yrs ago.  And that makes sense and is understood and I am not in any way suggesting that not making an effort every "Christmas" is some sort of problem.  She comes when she can for what she can.  It's a lot of work and money to travel that far, especially with now TWO kids in tow.  THis is all completely understood.  In addition, it's ALSO completely understood that my parents have more time and money to be able to visit them more often and so....................they do.  And they don't go unless it's all agreed upon ahead of time and everyone's time and space is discussed and respected.  And sometimes that means that my parents are out there, and therefore can't participate in whatever traditions we have going on here on this side of the country...........and that's all totally ok too.

What I am saying is that never wanting to attend any sort of family gathering or celebration ever is the problem.  I have said repeatedly that things like travel considerations, work obligations, costs, family from across the country etc etc, all those things should always be considered and respected.

The thread feels like it's about Thanksgiving and/or Christmas in particular, because it's that time of year, but I am taking the word "Holidays" to be more inclusive of all holidays and family type celebrations.  

 

Understood. And I agree if a family doesn't make an effort to ever visit than that speaks volumes for how they feel about their family. But their still shouldn't be any expectations that those visits sometime need to revolve around a celebration. 

[JustEm]

58 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

I have been trapped in family obligation for Christmas Eve forever. I see no real way out of it. We go to my mom's house. She likes to spend money on presents (but she wants me to tell her exactly what to buy- sidestepping the whole effort of getting to know your grandchildren thing- the nagging commences in September). My sister comes- though she spends the year refusing to talk to me and my brother is there, he doesn't care- he has no children.

It is so frustrating- like a command performance and the kids (who used to love it) are less enamoured now as they have more perspective on family life. It is frustrating because we live 25 minutes away and somehow all of our worth as children depends on showing up on Christmas Eve. And she does not come to our house or kids' activities even when invited.

It has taken years for me to break the passive agressive chains of every single holiday spent at her house. But Christmas... we tried to plan a vacation this year- but it was too expensive for all of us to go away.

So far, all my kids want to come home for the holidays and we help them out with flights to do so- but when they have families and demanding jobs- I will be flexible and loving and NOTHING like my mom. 

 

My vote is to just say no to Christmas Eve. Enjoy it at home with your family and just don't answer the phone for a month or so as she cools off. If she doesn't want a relationship the rest of the year, she doesn't want one of Christmas either.

[fairfarmhand]

In fairness, my person has sorta come to terms with the holiday situation since it’s been over 20 years since family had the big shindig on Christmas Eve/Christmas day. Not that person loves it but person has gotten over it. It’s not unusual for person to be a bit picky about holidays “must eat x and y for that holiday and it must occur at x time.” 

But people have just sort of put up with it for so long that it’s almsot part of the season to have venting phone calls each year. 😜

please please God don’t let that be me in 35 years!

so you all who have family who’s do this holiday thing right, how does that go? Brag on your parents and in-laws who are great around the holidays.

first, there are parents in my family who do-not fuss “you should be here more.” “Why don’t you come more often”

this is a blessing!

Im always thinking “i know it’s been a long time! If you miss me that much, you can come see me any time!”

People who understand that babies and toddlers are hard.

people who are glad to be together whether the menu is pizza or a 4 course meal.

[TABmom]

I'm sure I will not grow into that kind of person. When I was growing up, one side was very "command performance" and the other side was just so laid back- they were just going to have fun whenever with whoever was there. My grandma once said "Dec. 25th is just a date on the calendar- nothing special about it. Whatever date we can be together is a special date." 

Now, we live one hour away from my ils and 15 hours from mine. We switch off Christmas and Thanksgiving- but since we're so close to my in-laws, they get ALL the other little days- Mother's Day, Father's day, birthdays , Easter, 4th of July, even Memorial Day and Labor Day. And my Mil has the nerve to complain that we don't see her enough. Ugh! Just tonight she sent me a text about how nice it would be if we would go to her house on Wednesday and spend the night!! We're so not doing that. I told her we would go help set up early on Thursday- but there is no way I am spending the night.

On that note, here's something I've noticed about moms of men. They think the DIL is the one keeping their sweet little boys away from them. News flash: They're not. I have to force my dh to call his mom-  he's NOT trying to spend any more time with them than he has to. Often, the time we do spend is because I'm the one that made it happen! But, I'm sure it is less painful for her to think it's me than to think her son doesn't really want to go. So I'll just let her continue thinking that. 

 

[Scarlett]

52 minutes ago, TABmom said:

I'm sure I will not grow into that kind of person. When I was growing up, one side was very "command performance" and the other side was just so laid back- they were just going to have fun whenever with whoever was there. My grandma once said "Dec. 25th is just a date on the calendar- nothing special about it. Whatever date we can be together is a special date." 

Now, we live one hour away from my ils and 15 hours from mine. We switch off Christmas and Thanksgiving- but since we're so close to my in-laws, they get ALL the other little days- Mother's Day, Father's day, birthdays , Easter, 4th of July, even Memorial Day and Labor Day. And my Mil has the nerve to complain that we don't see her enough. Ugh! Just tonight she sent me a text about how nice it would be if we would go to her house on Wednesday and spend the night!! We're so not doing that. I told her we would go help set up early on Thursday- but there is no way I am spending the night.

On that note, here's something I've noticed about moms of men. They think the DIL is the one keeping their sweet little boys away from them. News flash: They're not. I have to force my dh to call his mom-  he's NOT trying to spend any more time with them than he has to. Often, the time we do spend is because I'm the one that made it happen! But, I'm sure it is less painful for her to think it's me than to think her son doesn't really want to go. So I'll just let her continue thinking that. 

 

I lived that as a DIL in my first marriage and feel it now with  my son.....it is just hard to accept sons don’t have any concern for their mothers. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, TABmom said:

We switch off Christmas and Thanksgiving- but since we're so close to my in-laws, they get ALL the other little days- Mother's Day, Father's day, birthdays , Easter, 4th of July, even Memorial Day and Labor Day.  

Um, no, girlfriend, that is way too much! Pick a holiday or two and make your own plans. I'd personally pick more than that, but you can start small. If someone tries to guilt trip me over Labor Day, I have no problem pointing out how ridiculous they are. 

[Shoeless]

8 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Person could indeed attend holiday celebrations at adult kids' homes, however, person believes that this is not a "real" way of celebrating holidays. And it's "so sad" that we can't get together with everyone.

 

 

Are you my sister? Because this is the exact issue with my father.  He wants the holidays celebrated in exactly the same way they have been celebrated for 40 years at his home.  Last year, my sister went out of state to visit her in-laws, the first time she spent a holiday with them in 10+ years. Dad sulked and threatened to go to a soup kitchen for Christmas.  My sister planned a Christmas celebration and gift exchange before she left and he "forgot" to get the grandkids presents.  It's not really Christmas, so why are we exchanging gifts?  He kept acting baffled about why exactly anyone was getting together when it wasn't even Christmas.  He realized last minute that this was a real jerk move.  My sisters had to scramble to fix the gift situation, so there weren't crying little kids.  Then lots of talk about how it was "so sad" that this is what life has come to, that he's allllllll alooooooone. 

He had 4 other invitations to spend the actual day with people, plus the early-Christmas gathering, but none of it made him happy.  He was eventually persuaded to go to my other sister's house for Christmas and was a wet blanket the entire time.  I told both sisters to let him sulk in a soup kitchen this year.  I'm several states away and we have a firm "No travel" for holidays rule because I won't spend my day with this sort of drama.        

[katilac]

26 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

My sister planned a Christmas celebration and gift exchange before she left and he "forgot" to get the grandkids presents.  It's not really Christmas, so why are we exchanging gifts?  He kept acting baffled about why exactly anyone was getting together when it wasn't even Christmas. 

🙄

Dang, he went all in. I'm impressed in a horrified sort of way, like he should get some kind of recognition for this lunacy - what's the opposite of an award? A badge of dishonor, maybe. If I were the sister he might visit, I'd probably be petty enough to make one and have it at the ready. Order of the Grinchian Empire, Distinguished Service. 

[Shoeless]

5 minutes ago, katilac said:

🙄

Dang, he went all in. I'm impressed in a horrified sort of way, like he should get some kind of recognition for this lunacy - what's the opposite of an award? A badge of dishonor, maybe. If I were the sister he might visit, I'd probably be petty enough to make one and have it at the ready. Order of the Grinchian Empire, Distinguished Service. 

 

Girl, my dad is next level in his antics. Like, his shenanigans are so unbelievable, I figure most people think I'm lying when I talk about him.     

He is also 100% the reason DH and I instituted a "No travel for holidays" rule before DS11 was born. I will *not* have dad upend another holiday. There's a looooong history there. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by MissLemon

[katilac]

7 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

He is also 100% the reason DH and I instituted a "No travel for holidays" rule before DS11 was born.  

Smart move. 

[Garga]

8 hours ago, skimomma said:

As to the larger question in the OP, I have pondered it myself.  I am in my mid-40s as are most of my friends.  We all have kids at home still.  We almost ALL have some sort of impossible situation with at least one parent.  And difficult situations with most of our parents.  Statistically, this has to mean something happens as you age.  The theory we have come to is that as you age, you lose your ability and/or desire to keep your flaws from leaking out.  With that in mind, I hope whatever my leaky flaws end up being, they are not ones that threaten a healthy relationship with my family.  

(sorry for the weird font—my ipad is acting goofy.)

My friends are all in their 40’s too.  A number of them have adult children.

When the kids were little, my friends would say things like, “I can’t wait for these kids to grow up and leave!” in the kids’ hearing.

A lot of my friends would/currently do fuss, fuss, fuss at their daughters and frankly, they act like two teenagers bickering together rather than mother and daughter. (I don’t see this with the mother-sons.)

A lot of my friends believe/believed they should lay down the law about things and their teens should just do what they’re told.  

A lot of my friends make/made fun of their kids’ teen romances, “Ha! What do they know about love! They can barely remember to floss!”  

And now, the friends who acted this way have kids who have fled the second they could get out of the house or the kids are eagerly waiting to flee the moment they can.

I don’t think it happens unexpectedly, that people are difficult and their adult kids don’t want to visit them on the holidays. I think the parents were acting like authoritative jerks all along and when the kids could get away, they got away.  And they don’t want to come back for holidays and deal with their smug, jerk parents.  

I could see it starting to happen with my dh.  He went through a phase where he was doing things that I could see were seriously annoying the kids and I thought, “No way will these kids want to come back home for visits when they’re adults and deal with dh’s annoying behavior.”  Long story short, the behavior stopped and relationships are restored, so I’m hopeful that the kids will visit when they’re older. 

If you look, you can often see that the off-putting behavior is there all along.  The parents usually want things their way all along and have belittled their kids all along, but they don’t realize they’re doing it.  My friends who do this think that kids are somewhat dumb and immature and not to be taken seriously and should just suck it up, buttercup.  They’re not the sort to talk and listen and empathize and try to understand and see their child as his or her own person and not just an annoying appendage to themselves.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Garga

[Frances]

9 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I disagree with this. I think it is completely reasonable to never travel for the holidays even if that is what your extended family wants. My sister lives 1000 miles away from the rest of the family. She came to Christmas once after having kids and it was just not enjoyable for her in many ways. Her family decided after that to never travel at the holidays again and that is perfectly acceptable.

She still comes for 2 or 3 weeks every summer and brings Christmas gifts then. It has been a wonderful tradition and would likely never happen had anyone put expectations on a her family to visit every few years.

We did the same once we moved 2000 miles away from family. We went home the first Christmas and vowed never to do it again. My parents both had parents who made demands around holidays and so they promised they would never do that to their children. We will continue the same tradition.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

 I don’t think it happens unexpectedly, that people are difficult and their adult kids don’t want to visit them on the holidays. I think the parents were acting like authoritative jerks all along and when the kids could get away, they got away.  And they don’t want to come back for holidays and deal with their smug, jerk parents.  

This happens for sure, but sometimes it really is just a case of not wanting to travel for the holidays or preferring a quiet holiday at home. We never traveled for Christmas but definitely not for such negative reasons! 

[Garga]

5 hours ago, katilac said:

This happens for sure, but sometimes it really is just a case of not wanting to travel for the holidays or preferring a quiet holiday at home. We never traveled for Christmas but definitely not for such negative reasons! 

Yes, I agree with you.  The OP was asking about the phenomenon of how family gatherings suddenly become miserable—about how we all say, “I hope my kids will want to visit me in the holidays!” But then the kids grow up and are like, “Oh, groan!  I have to go to Mom’s for Christmas and it’ll be miserable!”  She was asking for ideas on how not to be the person that no one wants to visit on the holidays, and why it happens.  I was just giving my observations.

I also have friends who listen to their kids, respect them as individuals, and aren’t demanding instant obedience, and those kids tend to want to visit on the holidays.  It’s not a chore in those families when the kids grow up. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Garga

[Meriwether]

We traveled to two different states the week around Christmas for years. I grew to hate it. I wanted to be home with my rapidly growing children and have our own traditions. My husband's company instituted a new policy that employees could only take off before or after Christmas. That is where I drew a hard, fast line. Christmas was on a Monday that year. My in-laws were adamant that they were going to host Christmas on Sunday afternoon. That would have us driving home on Christmas Day. For the first time in 17 years, I said no. If they had been willing to have it on Saturday, we would have gone and driven home on Christmas Eve. So, for the past three years we've been home Christmas Day.  This year we are getting together with one side the middle of December and the other over New Year's. I am going to try to actively encourage my kids to stay home on Christmas Day. If they live locally, I would love to have them over if they want to come. If they don't, Dh and I would be willing to pop in to see each one. My kids are mention sometimes that they want to do such and such with me when they are adults. I caution them that there spouses might have their own ideas, but that I would love to do whatever it was if it works out. I am reminding myself as I am reminding them that their future spouses are more important than we are.

ETA: This is the third year in a row that we'll be home Christmas Day, not the 4th. We have had a few other Christmases that it worked out for us to be home on Christmas, because the in-laws were getting together later.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Meriwether

[regentrude]

17 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

IWhat makes so many people be so difficult at the holidays? How can the rest of us avoid this phenomenon? Is it possible to do that?

I feel the issue may be that the importance of the Holidays with a capital H is grossly overinflated in our culture and fraught with unreasonable expectations.

I have made it very clear to my young adult children that I won't be the parent who starts fighting over the holidays. If they wish to be with their partners' family for the holidays, that's totally fine. If they wish to go on a trip, that's fine. It's just an arbitrary day, and in no way defines our relationship. We can get together on a different day, share company and a meal, even give gifts if we wanted to. It does not require a Holiday.

In general, fostering a good relationship with adult kids starts by taking them seriously as people when they are children, by listening and respecting them, by being supportive. By accepting that they are their own personalities and may do things differently. And just loving them.

Edited November 21, 2019 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

17 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

For our family, the person referenced could never come to terms that the adult children moved AWAY! And that does make getting together much more difficult.

 

I'd have trouble with that too, but my solution would be to move near at least one of my kids. If I'm the one that wants to be together, I should move!

17 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Just plain selfishness or immaturity - being unable or unwilling to see and understand another's point of view, to love others as oneself.

I have seen similar troubles with conflicting ideas of what a vacation should be: activity and adventure vs. rest and lots of unstructured down time . I also think that extrovert/introvert personalities can play into these things.

Now, I have a hard time saying that someone who wants to spend time with their family is just being selfish. I mean, it's a normal human desire - and in my case I'd want to love on my kids and grandkids. I don't see that as selfish. 

17 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Person could indeed attend holiday celebrations at adult kids' homes, however, person believes that this is not a "real" way of celebrating holidays. And it's "so sad" that we can't get together with everyone.

 

Ok, well, that's silly. And I do see how it could be sad. We didn't get together with family last year for christmas because of illness hitting - and it WAS sad to me and most of us if not all of us. But that does' mean we get to pout about it. 

Wanting to spend time with loved ones is not selfish or immature. Pouting about it rather than DOING something about it, or being flexible, etc IS immature. And pointless. 

[regentrude]

17 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Person could indeed attend holiday celebrations at adult kids' homes, however, person believes that this is not a "real" way of celebrating holidays. And it's "so sad" that we can't get together with everyone.

I understand being sad and consider that a very valid feeling. I am still sad, after 18 years, that I am not able to celebrate Christmas with my extended family. I miss them all especially around Christmas. Our emotional expectations around holidays are often shaped in childhood. It took me years of conscious work to make my peace with Christmas as an immigrant in a foreign country, where I am missing the traditions of my childhood, and Christmas is NEVER going to be what it was when I was a kid. I don't blame your relative for feeling sad about this. They should not pout and make things miserable for the others! But they are entitled to their feeling of loss.

[skimomma]

One of the reasons we stopped traveling for Christmas, specifically, was that we realized our own kid would never have memories of our own traditions or being in our home.  Instead she would remember many hours in the car, stressed out parents trying to navigate tight timelines on icy highways, waking up in hotel rooms, being forced to rush through gift opening to make it to the next place, cranky relatives that were mad about other missing relatives, etc....  With those memories, she would never feel compelled to come home for Christmas herself!  

 

[MaBelle]

My parents (divorced), two brothers and one sister live in the same town.  Other sister and I live eight and eleven hours away.  Sister W, who is the one that lives nearer to me has always gone back down to Alabama for Thanksgiving to see everyone and to watch THE football game.   We don't leave the ranch in the winter time, too much work and besides we always had five kids to think of.

This year she is coming here to us.  There is too much drama with our family.  Brothers both wanted to take their families to spend with their children's inlaws at their family retreats, one on a river and the other on a 5000 acre "hobby farm".  Then they changed their minds and offered to do Thanksgiving at one brother's house so mom would have somewhere to go, along with sister W.

Dad, who usually has to go with his wife to her family wasn't an issue.  BUT for some reason he is not going with her this year so that left him out. Thanksgivings with my mom and dad haven't happened for 30 years.  

So now after all this crap mom is going out of state with her boyfriend who isn't her boyfriend, dad will be at brothers house and my sils are probably pissed that they both passed up luxurious Thanksgiving meals where they had to do nothing so they could host for family members who decided not to come at all.  I will never understand why every year it's a big deal as to what, why, when, how and whatever they are going to do.  Just freaking do it or not.

Here we are doing Thanksgiving on the day with everyone here except one set of marrieds who are going to an inlaw grandma's for lunch then coming by our house later.   We always host because we have the biggest house and the grandkids love to run wild on the ranch.  I tell my kids if they have to be somewhere else then go and don't worry.  I get to see them all the time and I don't want other parents and grandparents to miss chances on the holidays.

That said it's going to be maybe dramatic for me this Thanksgiving because usually I control All The Food.  I like certain dishes done my way and always overdo the number of veggie dishes and two kinds of meat.  Four kinds of pie.  This year I'm letting go.  Sil, sister, daughters and dils are all preparing something.  Aside from refusing to let sil bring her dressing I'm throwing my hands up in the air.

[unsinkable]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

One of the reasons we stopped traveling for Christmas, specifically, was that we realized our own kid would never have memories of our own traditions or being in our home.  Instead she would remember many hours in the car, stressed out parents trying to navigate tight timelines on icy highways, waking up in hotel rooms, being forced to rush through gift opening to make it to the next place, cranky relatives that were mad about other missing relatives, etc....  With those memories, she would never feel compelled to come home for Christmas herself!  

 

I'm not discounting your experience...just using this as a jumping off point bc you mentioned traveling and memories, etc...

For my kids, traveling to Grandma & Grandpa's WAS THEIR tradition. We didn't stay in a hotel room bc they lived close enough to drive (but my kids loved hotels so that might not have mattered).

Packing the car, making sure we had all the presents and food, picking out the music to listen to on the way...that was all part of it. Then seeing all the aunts & uncles and cousins...that was part of the fun and tradition, too.

That tradition changed as the years went by bc of uncontrollable circumstances but just bc it wasn't at their (our/my kids' home) doesn't mean it wasn't THEIR tradition.

 

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

One of the reasons we stopped traveling for Christmas, specifically, was that we realized our own kid would never have memories of our own traditions or being in our home.  Instead she would remember many hours in the car, stressed out parents trying to navigate tight timelines on icy highways, waking up in hotel rooms, being forced to rush through gift opening to make it to the next place, cranky relatives that were mad about other missing relatives, etc....  With those memories, she would never feel compelled to come home for Christmas herself!  

 

 

I agree.  I saw my aunt do that all the time with her kid and she was stressed and really wish she would have put her foot down.  So I put mine down when the kids were little and had us stay home on Christmas.  For a little bit we let others be in on it, but then I just wanted our family.   I did all along, but had someone throwing a lot of guilt my way.   We get together with family either before or after Christmas.  Although we do go for Thanksgiving and Easter without doing anything just our family.   Those holidays really are not important to me.  

I am learning from what I have done.  When my kids are grown up they will want to stay home with their little families.  I have to expect that and be ok.    But I am also learning that you can celebrate the holiday (whichever one) on a different day and it is fine.  I think so many people have to do it on Dec. 25th.   I am already fine with it being whenever.    I also am keeping my life in mind right now.   I am in the busy years right now.  I will keep this time in my life in my mind so that I don't expect people to be able to do things at all times.   I like the idea of having a Christmas celebration in July.  Or whatever.  I am open to new things.  Our little holiday Christmas keeps changing.   We used to be at home Christmas eve, but now all the kids are in the Nutcracker at the ballet school so that is where we are Christmas Eve and the day after Christmas.   We don't have to keep doing the same thing, we just have fun enjoying the holiday season.  

[skimomma]

2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I'm not discounting your experience...just using this as a jumping off point bc you mentioned traveling and memories, etc...

For my kids, traveling to Grandma & Grandpa's WAS THEIR tradition. We didn't stay in a hotel room bc they lived close enough to drive (but my kids loved hotels so that might not have mattered).

Packing the car, making sure we had all the presents and food, picking out the music to listen to on the way...that was all part of it. Then seeing all the aunts & uncles and cousins...that was part of the fun and tradition, too.

That tradition changed as the years went by bc of uncontrollable circumstances but just bc it wasn't at their (our/my kids' home) doesn't mean it wasn't THEIR tradition.

 

 

I think this can be true for sure.  And we did go the extra mile to try to make special little traditions even within the chaos.  Like negotiating with hotel staff so that "santa" still visited.  And playing special music in the car and having our own little family Christmas after midnight services in our hotel room.  If these types of things were weaved into warm (even if chaotic) visits with extended family and times when adults paid any attention to the one kid (dd) in the mix.  And no one got drunk and started drama.  And we did not go into the ditch (again).  And everyone got adequate sleep and food.  And no one counted up the minutes we were at one house versus another then picked a fight about it being "unfair."  And my dd did not start crying midway through gift opening every year between the ages of 3 and 7 because she was too tired but we HAD to get to the next house by exactly noon or suffer an entire day of the silent treatment.....  Lots of disfunction.  Some normal in any varied family dynamic and some just wrong.  Probably pretty typical and maybe even "fun and exciting" for people blessed with certain personality types.

Dd is 16 now.  Our last trip was when she was 12.  She reports that there are some good memories but she felt general dread and exhaustion both during and leading up to those trips.  The kids has slept until noon every Christmas morning since we started staying home.  What kid does that?!?!  I am thinking maybe a kid that is making up for something.

[unsinkable]

48 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

I think this can be true for sure.  And we did go the extra mile to try to make special little traditions even within the chaos.  Like negotiating with hotel staff so that "santa" still visited.  And playing special music in the car and having our own little family Christmas after midnight services in our hotel room.  If these types of things were weaved into warm (even if chaotic) visits with extended family and times when adults paid any attention to the one kid (dd) in the mix.  And no one got drunk and started drama.  And we did not go into the ditch (again).  And everyone got adequate sleep and food.  And no one counted up the minutes we were at one house versus another then picked a fight about it being "unfair."  And my dd did not start crying midway through gift opening every year between the ages of 3 and 7 because she was too tired but we HAD to get to the next house by exactly noon or suffer an entire day of the silent treatment.....  Lots of disfunction.  Some normal in any varied family dynamic and some just wrong.  Probably pretty typical and maybe even "fun and exciting" for people blessed with certain personality types.

Dd is 16 now.  Our last trip was when she was 12.  She reports that there are some good memories but she felt general dread and exhaustion both during and leading up to those trips.  The kids has slept until noon every Christmas morning since we started staying home.  What kid does that?!?!  I am thinking maybe a kid that is making up for something.

Just bc I don't list all the sh!t that happened over the holidays at Grandma's means we were all gathered like the Whos down in Whoville singing Dah-who-doraze. LOL

I'm glad you're finally happy with your holidays.