Unskilled, semi-skilled, skilled labor

[SKL]

12 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

So...if business margins cannot support the additional pay, and those who are working for $7.25 can't make ends meets, then who makes up the difference? 

Hint: it starts with tax and ends with payers via the social safety net (as limited as it may be.)

So the question could also be posed as why should businesses be indirectly subsidized by the taxpayer?  And let's nor pretend these are only small businesses being subsidized.  WalMart and other major corporations benefit even more than the typical small business.  WalMart has been known to even provide employees on how to apply for government assistance.

If we are okay with subsidizing business, then fine.  But that means the constant attacks on the social safety net need to be dropped as well. 

Well are we subsidizing businesses that offer jobs to people with very limited skills/experience, or are we subsidizing people who have not (or not yet) developed the skills and experience needed to land a better job?  I mean if those jobs for those people went away, would those people be qualified for higher-paying jobs?  If so, they should go take them.  WalMart is not a monopoly.  Why are people willing to work at WalMart in this time of near full employment?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

 

But, you shouldn't need a degree in many jobs. There is no reason for a college degree in my job, and those who have been the worst employees have college degrees. 

Daycare is already so expensive and sparse where I live that if you required all of the employees to have college degrees, hardly anyone would be able to send their kids to them. They already cost around $2000 a month for infant care, and we live in an area with a high cost of living and lower than necessary wages. 

Well, I’m one of those rare people who believe requiring college degrees is worthwhile for many jobs. The purpose of a college degree is not and never has been job training. It is to make one a well-educated person, with a broad knowledge base and a lot of experience interacting with other people, including asshats; learning how to deliver required information, learning to communicate effectively, learning to problem-solve. 

As I said, I believe (cannot swear to it, but I think) one cannot be an official daycare teacher (not a home daycare) with no degree where I live. I think you have to have at least an Associates in Child Development. At facilities, I expect at least one lead teacher has to have a Bachelor’s. The tuition does not increase just because the staff has degrees, which is exactly what I was saying I perceive as a problem. 

Yes, childcare is crazy, nuts expensive; it is a big reason why some moms (or dads) decide to SAH. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Right? I'm sitting here on a board like many other boards where questions about how to get our crap together so that our own houses are clean and organized is a very regular topic that people spend millions of dollars in books, tv shows, magazines and more because they can't seem to figure it out.  So don't tell me it's not skilled work.  Obviously it takes more skill or work ethic than a whole lot of folks here are willing to admit despite the evidence of numerous posts lamenting their lack in this category.  I don't read such posts and think those people have character problems because of it.

Not saying that many maids don't have EF skills, but it is not a given.  Cleaning is a collection of tasks that are mostly dependent on elbow grease rather than intellect.  Someone manages who does what, and it isn't always the cleaner her/himself.  Some cleaners who are "on their own" take years, even decades to get some things right, if they ever do.  As the person paying one such cleaner, I manage around her EF problems by rearranging my house before she arrives so she doesn't have the opportunity to make certain mistakes; and rearranging again after she leaves; and accepting the fact that certain things will only be done right a minority of the time.  And I put up with the fact that she doesn't have a phone or a bank account half of the time because of her EF issues; not to mention her unreliability as far as whether / when she will arrive.  And she is actually fairly typical of people I know in the long-term cleaning business.  Dare I say there is a reason most of them clean for a living and it isn't love for the job.  (But I certainly appreciate their very hard work.  I just decline to call it more than what it is.)

I myself am pretty good at cleaning - I just don't do it much any more for reasons other than skills.  I understand what it means to be skilled at managing the job of cleaning.  And I can say that, just like not every McDonald's employee is a talented chef, not every cleaner is a talented household manager, not by a long shot.

Edited May 18, 2019 by SKL

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Who doesn't have access?  There is a community college and a library accessible to everyone in the US. 

 

  Almost everyone in my area is below living wage...its 89k now.  There is no rent control, but there is a senior citizen property tax reduction (its about $5k for people who still have the big house).  Most people couldnt qualify to buy their own home if they were to sell in their peak earning years, they are literally stuck in their home and can't size down.   The people who have that living wage are commuting from NYC. People that work locally are doubled up in housing, or renting out rooms if they didn't inherit or buy long ago. That's something your mom can investigate as a supplement to income -- for my mil, she could actually rent her home out and live in an apt and come out $500 a month ahead, just due to the subsidies seniors get.  She'd be a 1000 a month ahead if she stayed and rented two rooms out. 

   I encourage you to have your mother help herself.  The first thing she has to realize is productivity improvements mean she is going to have increased responsibilities.  I saw this with mil....she had to accept the computer training her employer offered, or get out..she was literally 1/4 as productive as the other people her age who had transitioned...and everyone of them was asking the boss for more hours -- her hours -- as the PC and software updates increased their efficiency.  She eventually lost the job, at age 76, because she wouldn't transition.  Time in current job has nothing to do with moving up -- its skill set and availability of the job. She may have to go into self-employment.  I know several people laid off at 53 who did, and they are doing quite well because they moved on in their minds.

Medical bills of an older couple may take a medicare advantage plan or working for an employer who offers better medical. Perhaps you can help her with the legwork.

This is such a condescending and rude post.  Just wow.  Carries mom IS helping herself.  Did you see the part where she is still working at age 66 and all the other struggles that SHE did not cause and has no control over.  She is 66 years old.....do you really think this is the time to be switching jobs in order to get better medical?

And your poor MIL...I hope she has other people in her life to give her care and concern.  It can’t be easy to still be working at age 76 and then to be let go because she ‘wouldn’t’ transition.  Good grief.  

[Hilltopmom]

Preschool in my area is mostly switching over to being provided by the school district (UPK). It requires a master’s degree.

Since kids are expected to read in K now a days, and preK classes have 20 kids (many who have disabilities & severe behavior issues), actually requiring degreed teachers is a pretty good idea, IMO.

The district I work in has our preK rooms staffed by a teacher with a master’s degree, a special Ed teacher with a master’s degree, a speech therapist with a master’s degree, & a OT and PT with PHd’s (That’s the bare minimum allowed by our state for those certificates), and a classroom aide who makes minimum wage but deserves gold. And it takes all of us to keep things going.

There is a big difference between babysitting, daycare, and preschool. All should be paid more than they are, but to suggest that quality preschools could be run by a few teenagers is out of touch with today’s schools expectations.

(we do still have a vo tech preschool program locally staffed by teens, but the head teacher and assistant are certified teachers)

Edited May 18, 2019 by Hilltopmom

[ChocolateReignRemix]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Well are we subsidizing businesses that offer jobs to people with very limited skills/experience, or are we subsidizing people who have not (or not yet) developed the skills and experience needed to land a better job?  I mean if those jobs for those people went away, would those people be qualified for higher-paying jobs?  If so, they should go take them.  WalMart is not a monopoly.  Why are people willing to work at WalMart in this time of near full employment?

 

For starters, near full employment is a bit misleading.  The unemployment rate is calculated in a consistent measure and for that reason is a solid measure of trends over time, but it doesn't account for underemployment.  It should also be noted WalMart employs around 1.4 million people in the United States.  Considering a fair number of those are in areas with limited employment opportunities, I am not sure where you think that many people can find employment elsewhere.

Not to be trite, but as noted in "Caddyshack", the world needs ditch diggers too.  Our labor market consists of X number of jobs that may be unskilled but still require a person willing to do them.  As long as the number of those seeking work >>> number of available jobs, those on the unskilled side of the labor market will be on the low end of wages.  As a society we then have to decide how we are going to treat the least of us.  Personally I think whether someone is bagging my groceries, doing the landscaping in my neighborhood, or cleaning houses, anyone who is working full time should be able to afford to put a roof over their heads, food on the table, and live a decent life.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

*For some people*, you’re right. Those things are tickets out. But we have to stop pretending everyone has that access and ability!

 

It's also important to remember that education is a solution at the micro level, but has shrinking returns at the macro level.  There are only so many openings for jobs with higher skill levels, and eventually someone has to do the unskilled work.  A landscaping company isn't going to pay you more just because someone has an engineering degree (extreme example obviously).

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Welcome to reality.   

And yes, if you need better medical, you need to do what everyone else does and make the switch. Thoughts & prayers and worrying aren't going to fill the larder.

MIL chose to be let go.  She was offered full time and additional training to brush up her PC skills to what's normal for the 70 and 80 year old co-workers, but turned it down.  She has a different part time job with full medical from the same employer -- one where she can take all day to do something by hand that can be done on the PC in half an hour. Her choice, they don't pay by the hour, but by job completion.  

I don't know why you think 'still working at 76' is rare.  People live to their late 90s.  Many of them live a full life and aren't ready to leave part time work, especially when it comes with full medical as it does in this state.  I know people in their early 90s who are candy stripers at the hospital, and they are pushing stretchers, not passing out tissues.  Part of why they have a long life is they keep busy doing things besides occupying the porch swing.

And really, you're a bit old for ad hominems. Makes it hard to take you seriously.

I addressed your rudeness. And I disagree with your position that all anyone needs to do is help themselves solve their problems.  Working at 76 because you have to is far different from full lives of volunteering.  I can’t think of a single person in my very large group of friends and acquaintances who is working in their 70s.  So it isn’t reality in my world.  And if it is a reality in your world I am sad for older people in such dire financial straits they have to work.  

 

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Who doesn't have access?  There is a community college and a library accessible to everyone in the US. 

 

This not true.  I live in an area where the closest CC is an hour away.  Do you believe that makes it accessible? 

[maize]

34 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

It's also important to remember that education is a solution at the micro level, but has shrinking returns at the macro level.  There are only so many openings for jobs with higher skill levels, and eventually someone has to do the unskilled work.  A landscaping company isn't going to pay you more just because someone has an engineering degree (extreme example obviously).

This.

This is why we need a system that pays a living wage for unskilled work.

We need people doing unskilled work and those people deserve decent remuneration for their hard hours of labor.

Education as a ticket out of poverty is not a mass solution.

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Welp. I disagree. When one tries to fill a position and all that is needed for entry into the position is a pulse and the ability to turn up at the job, the people applying for that job are overwhelming likely to be the bottom-of-the-barrel employees. They are the people who can’t or won’t work towards degrees or certification. It’s not classist, it’s just factual. 

 

Whether a person can or will work towards a degree or certification is a far cry from saying anyone without certifications and degrees are lazy dope head employees. Which is what you keep saying and THAT is classist bigotry.

Lots of people do not in fact have access to community colleges or libraries.  Roughly half my state doesn't for literally dozens of reasons that have nothing to do with those people's work ethic or general character.

Lots of people have very reasonable things that keep them from going to college or getting certifications at any age. For the majority of those people, it has nothing to do with their character or their work ethic.  The vast majority of people working at or below the poverty level do have jobs and work very hard for what little it gets them in life.

This delusion that the medical benefits or other perks make up for the pay is bullshit statistically bc those benefits and perks rarely exist at all in low pay situations and certainly not in a quantity to make up for the low pay. There is literally nothing in the data to back up such a nonsense claim.

If you have a high turn over and difficulty keeping employees it's likely because the work is crap and the pay isn't much better, in which case, hells yeah the smart thing to do should the opportunity present itself is to leave that job asap should another opportunity that might net better for them present itself. That's not crappy work ethic.  That's employees doing exactly what employers are doing in paying them crap wages and refusing to support social policies that would assist more people in the community - it's the employee looking out for their own bottom line.  Employers want employee loyalty and devotion and they call that work ethic.  It's not work ethic.  It's stupidity to be loyal and devoted to people who think you are a worthless bottom of the barrel person unless you come rubber stamped certified.  Especially in today's work culture where young employees are told at graduation that they should expect that they are unlikely to be working for the same company for longer than 5 years and should plan to have 2-4 complete career changes in their lifetime, with few career exceptions. And at a time when many college graduates aren't making squat and are just as likely to be working at Starbucks as anyone's else.

If you have a problem with that, maybe it's time you adjusted to current times or change your business field.

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Who doesn't have access?  There is a community college and a library accessible to everyone in the US. 

 

34 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This not true.  I live in an area where the closest CC is an hour away.  Do you believe that makes it accessible? 

Mine’s only a half hour away (and that’s the satellite campus, not main) and it can be hard. Particularly for people who, you know, need to support themselves by working 40+ hours/wk.  And it’s $750/3 credit class (plus books.) 

But what do I know, being raised by an apparently lazy woman who can’t be bothered to get ahead. @@. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

It's also important to remember that education is a solution at the micro level, but has shrinking returns at the macro level.  There are only so many openings for jobs with higher skill levels, and eventually someone has to do the unskilled work.  A landscaping company isn't going to pay you more just because someone has an engineering degree (extreme example obviously).

 

Yes.  I mentioned that previous too.  I don't care how qualified and great someone would be at being a doctor or an engineer, the system is set up to limit the number of people accepted into such programs specifically to assure a demand that will give higher incomes.  This is true of nearly all well paid professions and in those it didn't used to be, programs sprung up to prevent a glut of professionals and protect higher wages. For example, nursing didn't used to be so difficult to get into.  Now it is.  And jobs that don't require a degree are not necessarily free to learn either.  Having a trade often requires expensive training, tools, licensing, insurances, overhead and more.  It might be less than an MD, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily affordable or more attainable either.

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I addressed your rudeness. And I disagree with your position that all anyone needs to do is help themselves solve their problems.  Working at 76 because you have to is far different from full lives of volunteering.  I can’t think of a single person in my very large group of friends and acquaintances who is working in their 70s.  So it isn’t reality in my world.  And if it is a reality in your world I am sad for older people in such dire financial straits they have to work.  

 

 

Exactly.  There's no way someone in their 70s can do the work, desk or physical, or someone in their 30s.  There's a few exceptions, but over all that's just a fact of nature.  Because of that, it's rare for them to not be pushed into retirement by whatever company they work for and to have a very difficult time convincing someone else to hire them.

I am not sad for anyone who is working and mostly am glad they can. But for the huge amount of our population that lives paycheck to paycheck, and know that is unlikely to ever change no matter how hard they work, for those people it saddens me that we demand they work 40+ hrs a week until the day they die.  No one ever wants to die and have their eulogy be, "He had a great work ethic.  He worked to the day he died at a job that didn't pay crap, for a society that never gave a damn thing back to him, but wow he never missed work.  Sure he missed almost everything about his kids growing up and ended up divorced due to unending financial stress.  But hey, what a guy, he was always on time, and had a great work ethic!💪"

Life and society is about relationships.  That's the only thing we leave behind when we die and the only thing we take with us into the hereafter.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

<snip>

But what do I know, being raised by an apparently lazy woman who can’t be bothered to get ahead. @@. 

Yeah, Carrie, tell your mom to get it together, willya?

(Sarcasm if you weren't sure.)

Our CC campus is only 8 miles away, but public transit is nearly worthless so it's difficult to impossible for people who don't have access to a car.  With fees it's $191 per credit plus books, so cheaper than some, more expensive than others.  Fortunately some instructors have clued in to the fact that textbooks are a huge racket, and are using alternatives which are lower cost and sometimes even no cost at all.   

We could all point to someone with seemingly insurmountable obstacles who made it work out, and then use that as a club to beat up others who didn't have whatever it was - luck, grit, determination, whatever - that the successful person had. There are a lot of factors that go into it and they are not all under a person's control - however much we like to think that it is. 

ETA: luck is probably a poor choice of words. But I'd also add superior intellect. Some people just are smarter/quicker/more academically capable than others.

Edited May 18, 2019 by marbel

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

Yeah, Carrie, tell your mom to get it together, willya?

(Sarcasm if you weren't sure

Right?!?

Now I’m trying to remember who it was that managed to raised 3 kids as a single parent with no child support. Oh, yeah! Her, a few decades younger!  

Don’t get old, people!

[ktgrok]

A 70 something year old woman should just quite and get another job??? Seriously? In what world is its easy for a person in their 70's to get hired pretty much anywhere? People in their 50s are facing ageism, let alone 70s!

And not wanting to go to full time at 76 years old is hardly something to consider lazy, etc. 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

 

I don't know why you think 'still working at 76' is rare.  People live to their late 90s.  Many of them live a full life and aren't ready to leave part time work, especially when it comes with full medical as it does in this state.  I know people in their early 90s who are candy stripers at the hospital, and they are pushing stretchers, not passing out tissues.  Part of why they have a long life is they keep busy doing things besides occupying the porch swing.

And really, you're a bit old for ad hominems. Makes it hard to take you seriously.

 

As of 2002 less than 5% of those age 75 or older were still working.  The number has been growing and and jumped after the 2008 economic debacle and is somewhere around 8-10% now.  I would call that relatively rare.

[SKL]

10 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

For starters, near full employment is a bit misleading.  The unemployment rate is calculated in a consistent measure and for that reason is a solid measure of trends over time, but it doesn't account for underemployment.  It should also be noted WalMart employs around 1.4 million people in the United States.  Considering a fair number of those are in areas with limited employment opportunities, I am not sure where you think that many people can find employment elsewhere.

Not to be trite, but as noted in "Caddyshack", the world needs ditch diggers too.  Our labor market consists of X number of jobs that may be unskilled but still require a person willing to do them.  As long as the number of those seeking work >>> number of available jobs, those on the unskilled side of the labor market will be on the low end of wages.  As a society we then have to decide how we are going to treat the least of us.  Personally I think whether someone is bagging my groceries, doing the landscaping in my neighborhood, or cleaning houses, anyone who is working full time should be able to afford to put a roof over their heads, food on the table, and live a decent life.

I never said unskilled workers should not be able to earn a living wage.  There is a difference between unskilled and entry-level.  An unskilled worker who has built up the experience and reputation of a reliable and productive worker is not an entry-level worker and should earn a living wage.  There are many unskilled jobs that pay pretty well.  But not every unskilled person has proven himself qualified for the jobs that pay well.

[ktgrok]

At this point, in my head, Heigh Ho lives in a yankee version of Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above average but none get any classes except study hall, while driving on the ice uphill both ways, hoping to avoid the rush hour of 70-80 year olds working under the table jobs while collecting huge pensions and never paying any property taxes. 

I don't mean I don't believe you, Heigh Ho, but wherever you live just seems so vastly different than anywhere I've lived, or people I know have lived, or even people on this board have experience. It's like another planet to me. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

At this point, in my head, Heigh Ho lives in a yankee version of Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above average but none get any classes except study hall, while driving on the ice uphill both ways, hoping to avoid the rush hour of 70-80 year olds working under the table jobs while collecting huge pensions and never paying any property taxes. 

I don't mean I don't believe you, Heigh Ho, but wherever you live just seems so vastly different than anywhere I've lived, or people I know have lived, or even people on this board have experience. It's like another planet to me. 

I was surprised by the 16yos. It’s rare around here for them to have their own vehicle dedicated to their own schedule.  It’s also not hugely common for our district to produce DE students.

My own teens get chauffeured around to pricey classes (DE is discounted, but not free) and various opportunities by their sahm and flexible-hours dad, and are eligible thanks to their highly personalized education.  They are extremely privileged, and they know it. Being related to and friends with people from a wide range of backgrounds, they see the different challenges that exist in life/the world/the US/their area. They’re very much aware that their situation isn’t exactly “normal”.

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Yep. And so does my school district. There is no transportation for the students who have DE at the CC as the only option besides study hall..as sixteen year old new drivers, they get to learn to handle ice by driving in to the CC daily in winter.

Keep in mind high schoolers in NYC travel more than an hour to school; commutes are normal.  

Why do you think driving to the CC is the only way to earn a certificate or degree? Does your state not have online options?

 

Because driving is still the only way the majority of the time.  Online has come a long way but not so far that an entire degree in any field is available anywhere for free. That’s just not the case. And online is often still subpar to classroom. That’s getting better in some places but it’s still not the standard yet.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

You are citing above the table and full time.

 

Oh geez. Whatever. 🙄

[Murphy101]

26 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I was surprised by the 16yos. It’s rare around here for them to have their own vehicle dedicated to their own schedule.  It’s also not hugely common for our district to produce DE students.

My own teens get chauffeured around to pricey classes (DE is discounted, but not free) and various opportunities by their sahm and flexible-hours dad, and are eligible thanks to their highly personalized education.  They are extremely privileged, and they know it. Being related to and friends with people from a wide range of backgrounds, they see the different challenges that exist in life/the world/the US/their area. They’re very much aware that their situation isn’t exactly “normal”.

 

Me too. Most of my kids don’t even have their own cellphone or laptop, they sure don’t all have their own cars or all of that at 16.

[Hilltopmom]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Because driving is still the only way the majority of the time.  Online has come a long way but not so far that an entire degree in any field is available anywhere for free. That’s just not the case. And online is often still subpar to classroom. That’s getting better in some places but it’s still not the standard yet.

Not to mention, in many rural areas, mine included, internet is too spotty for online classes, streaming, etc. And the community college classes are far away and sparse.

[Frances]

8 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Yep. And so does my school district. There is no transportation for the students who have DE at the CC as the only option besides study hall..as sixteen year old new drivers, they get to learn to handle ice by driving in to the CC daily in winter.

Keep in mind high schoolers in NYC travel more than an hour to school; commutes are normal.  

Why do you think driving to the CC is the only way to earn a certificate or degree? Does your state not have online options?

For a high school student, commuting by public transportation in NYC is very different than a new driver having access to a car and gas money to drive in all conditions to CC classes in rural areas. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

9 hours ago, HeighHo said:

You are citing above the table and full time.

I am citing above the table (anything else would be a guess) but using the BLS standard of employed = 1+ hours of paid work.

[Corraleno]

My dad is 83 years old and still works 40 hrs/wk, despite severe chronic back pain, because if he didn't work, they'd go hungry and my stepmother would die because they couldn't afford her medications and doctor's bills. And before some asshat says "they should have managed their money better," they both worked their tails off their entire lives, and my dad often worked 2 or even 3 jobs, and every penny they earned went to providing basic necessities for their families. Even a so-called living wage of $15/hr does not include anything like retirement savings — and they never earned anywhere near that. They also had numerous financial setbacks — house repairs they couldn't really afford, medical bills that nearly bankrupted them, cheap cars that needed constant repairs. When my widowed stepsister died of cancer at 40, they sold their house and moved into her house to raise her two kids, and the little money they made on their house was spent supporting their grandkids.

My stepmother worked for Macy's for more than 20 years and was within a year of retiring with a pension and medical benefits when they "reorganized" and fired anyone who was close to retirement, so she got nothing. In her late 60s she was working the freaking 4:00 AM shift at 7-11 for minimum wage just to help put food on the table. She'd still be working now if it were physically possible, but she is medically fragile and can barely leave the house. She told me a few weeks ago that she feels guilty for being alive because my dad wouldn't have to work so many hours if she were dead. 

Anyone who thinks the tens of millions of working poor in this country just aren't working hard enough, or can't be bothered to "better themselves," either live very privileged lives that insulate them from the reality that millions of their fellow citizens deal with every day, or they are seriously lacking in empathy and compassion.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

15 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

My dad is 83 years old and still works 40 hrs/wk, despite severe chronic back pain, because if he didn't work, they'd go hungry and my stepmother would die because they couldn't afford her medications and doctor's bills. And before some asshat says "they should have managed their money better," they both worked their tails off their entire lives, and my dad often worked 2 or even 3 jobs, and every penny they earned went to providing basic necessities for their families. Even a so-called living wage of $15/hr does not include anything like retirement savings — and they never earned anywhere near that. They also had numerous financial setbacks — house repairs they couldn't really afford, medical bills that nearly bankrupted them, cheap cars that needed constant repairs. When my widowed stepsister died of cancer at 40, they sold their house and moved into her house to raise her two kids, and the little money they made on their house was spent supporting their grandkids.

My stepmother worked for Macy's for more than 20 years and was within a year of retiring with a pension and medical benefits when they "reorganized" and fired anyone who was close to retirement, so she got nothing. In her late 60s she was working the freaking 4:00 AM shift at 7-11 for minimum wage just to help put food on the table. She'd still be working now if it were physically possible, but she is medically fragile and can barely leave the house. She told me a few weeks ago that she feels guilty for being alive because my dad wouldn't have to work so many hours if she were dead. 

Anyone who thinks the tens of millions of working poor in this country just aren't working hard enough, or can't be bothered to "better themselves," either live very privileged lives that insulate them from the reality that millions of their fellow citizens deal with every day, or they are seriously lacking in empathy and compassion.

Just wanted to say that I didn't know whether to use the sad response or the THANK YOU! So you are being quoted. Thank you.

There are those of us who are have clawed our way up to middle class (on paper), who know that our pensions, etc. are likely to be a house of cards, and we are using all the rest for health care as we go. (And that's with the "best" insurance available to commoners-not-Congress). I don't even know what to say to people who don't understand that a single medical event can wipe out a family's wealth for a generation in this country, and how those with children with special needs will likely never retire. In other words, I have nothing to say to people who can't read the news, because these scenarios of lost pensions and medical poverty are daily topics now, in this country.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

My dad is 83 years old and still works 40 hrs/wk, despite severe chronic back pain, because if he didn't work, they'd go hungry and my stepmother would die because they couldn't afford her medications and doctor's bills. And before some asshat says "they should have managed their money better," they both worked their tails off their entire lives, and my dad often worked 2 or even 3 jobs, and every penny they earned went to providing basic necessities for their families. Even a so-called living wage of $15/hr does not include anything like retirement savings — and they never earned anywhere near that. They also had numerous financial setbacks — house repairs they couldn't really afford, medical bills that nearly bankrupted them, cheap cars that needed constant repairs. When my widowed stepsister died of cancer at 40, they sold their house and moved into her house to raise her two kids, and the little money they made on their house was spent supporting their grandkids.

My stepmother worked for Macy's for more than 20 years and was within a year of retiring with a pension and medical benefits when they "reorganized" and fired anyone who was close to retirement, so she got nothing. In her late 60s she was working the freaking 4:00 AM shift at 7-11 for minimum wage just to help put food on the table. She'd still be working now if it were physically possible, but she is medically fragile and can barely leave the house. She told me a few weeks ago that she feels guilty for being alive because my dad wouldn't have to work so many hours if she were dead. 

Anyone who thinks the tens of millions of working poor in this country just aren't working hard enough, or can't be bothered to "better themselves," either live very privileged lives that insulate them from the reality that millions of their fellow citizens deal with every day, or they are seriously lacking in empathy and compassion.

I did a crying emoji but I also want to say I am sorry.  It makes me ill knowing stories like this. And for someone, who shall go unnamed, to so glibly say, ‘they need to help themselves’. Ugh, it makes me want to scream.  

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Yep. And so does my school district. There is no transportation for the students who have DE at the CC as the only option besides study hall..as sixteen year old new drivers, they get to learn to handle ice by driving in to the CC daily in winter.

Keep in mind high schoolers in NYC travel more than an hour to school; commutes are normal.  

Why do you think driving to the CC is the only way to earn a certificate or degree? Does your state not have online options?

I would suggest that your NYC experience has nothing to do with the realties of rural America.  My son is highly privileged in that he has a newer paid for Prius, with the insurance paid for by his dad, tuition paid for by his dad, and free room and board paid for by myself and my dh.  Plus he gets an allowance from his dad to buy gas and other expenses.  It isn’t the normal experience.

[LucyStoner]

I’ve never had a job where I didn’t learn or need to use some skill that was pretty specific to that type of job.  

Some jobs don’t have a lot of requirements for who can be hired but most have requirements for what it takes to not be fired.  

The work I do now pays me $45-65/hr depending on the contract (basically a couple of clients pay me $45/hr because I am doing them a favor, a couple pay $65/hr because I upcharge them for uh, reasons, and most pay $55/hr.) I’m not the cheapest option in my market but I’m reasonably certain based on the number of people who want to work with me that I am generally considered worth it. 

Frankly, in my entire life I never worked harder than when I was being paid $8.50 at a daycare in the 1990s or when I was being paid $10 plus tips to clean rooms at a small inn and large bed and breakfast.  I can’t say that the work I do now requires considerably more skill than the work I did then.  I just fired a client for being too big of a pain in my ass and working for them was still easier than what I did at the bed and breakfast.  What made this client so annoying?  They sent me too many emails.  

I’m really not sure why I am entitled to $55/hr now while people cleaning hotel rooms get minimum wage.  I’m not going to pretend like the work I do now has some vastly higher level of skill.  It’s just in a decent niche and seems more white collar.  

I’m guessing the house cleaner probably has more business expenses than me and our insurance rates for liability are likely similar.  

With the exception of a profession that takes a decade of education + on the job training, I’m guessing most people who advance their pay level, if they were being truly honest with themselves, would admit that it’s not because they trained harder or were smarter or worked harder than when they waited tables or cleaned up after gross people.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

On 5/15/2019 at 10:03 PM, TechWife said:

I came across this article this evening. Abigail Disney, the granddaughter of Walt Disney,  is concerned about wage disparity. She has recently criticized the $65 million annual salary of the Disney CEO & the disparity between it and what the company’s average workers make. She has challenged the company to redirect 1/2 of the executive bonus pay budget to the lowest paid 10% of its 200K workforce, giving them each $2K.  The company responding that their employees make more than the minimum wage. Keep reading if you want to know how much she pays her housekeeper...

 She states that corporations need to start understanding and doing capitalism differently. 

“Yes, managers have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders. But they also have a legal and moral responsibility to deliver returns to shareholders without trampling on the dignity and rights of their employees and other stakeholders," she added. 

Disney argues that there is nothing inherently wrong with a big payday for executives as long as workers can support themselves. She urged lawmakers to consider examining the pay ratio between CEOs and their lowest-paid full-time workers, rather than that between the C-suite and median income-level employees -- which some Democrats have called for. 

"The median ratio is not a helpful ratio. It treats the lowest paid worker as if they were invisible," she said.

 

She seems like an interesting lady. She pays her housekeeper $75,000 per year (that works out to a little more than $36/hour for a 40 hour work week). . She disclosed that she earns between $5-6 million per year and donates $7-8 million annually. She does not use the family jet and started giving her money away when she was in her 20’s. I assume those numbers mean that she is selling investments and/or using dividends to donate to charity. 

 

Being the housekeeper for a very wealthy person is definitely a skilled job and they are very selective about who they hire.  

At one of my jobs, I was hired by someone who was temporarily running a non-profit as a favor for a friend.  She hired me to take over.  She was in her late 40s at the time and retired.  She’d started at a household name tech company as an admin out of college and later was hired to be the house manager for the (household name) CEO.  She was paid very well and hit the stock options lotto like a lot of early tech workers.  She was hiring their staff and housekeepers and they paid a premium over market for sure.  A large part of the premium pay was for discretion and not breeching family privacy.  

[LucyStoner]

Even the easiest job I ever had, had an attached skill set.  The job:  selling tickets at the opera.  

1. I had to know about opera.  While I liked Opera before I got hired, I will admit there was a learning curve in being able to discuss the performers, productions and other tidbits in an informed manner.  

2. YOU try explaining to someone who donated $(insert crap ton of money) that you can’t fulfill his seating change request because the people sitting in the seats he’s been eying donated $(insert 2 crap tons of money) without getting him to storm off and take his $(crap ton of money) somewhere else.  

3. I’ve used a lot of databases.  Ticketing systems are among the more finicky.  

I’m really digging deep here to think of a job that is totally unskilled and whenever I think of one, I can usually think of one or two skills that you would need and that not everyone, even if they are otherwise employable, has.  

 

[Sneezyone]

23 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

As of 2002 less than 5% of those age 75 or older were still working.  The number has been growing and and jumped after the 2008 economic debacle and is somewhere around 8-10% now.  I would call that relatively rare.

 

While I think Heigh Ho's characterization is off, I also think 2002/8 numbers are woefully out of date. My mom is 67, almost 68, and she works as a substitute teacher as often as she can. She NEEDS the money because she did not prepare for old age. She is not alone among her age cohort. I think the people who are mostly likely to still be working at these ages are those in 'knowledge' professions tho, people who have degrees and don't have to expend tons of physical energy. These are probably also the same people who were not working minimum wage jobs in their prime.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SereneHome]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:06 PM, Quill said:

I think one interesting part of the picture is that jobs with a low barrier to entry (and thus, typically low wages, at least at first) do attract people who are not proactive enough, disciplined enough, literate enough or some other important feature, to do a job requiring degrees. For instance, at one point, dh tried for literally years to employ a good plumber’s helper. No degree or certificate necessary; just show up, take direction, and don’t be messy. He hired young guys numerous times, but these employees failed. The people who are more on-the-ball typically get their certifications; they don’t look for plumber’s helpers jobs. 

I have a friend who keeps trying to hire employees for her cleaning company. No barrier to entry; no degree or certification needed. People do not show up for work. She says for every five she hires, only one actually comes to work. 

So. I think that is one reason why many jobs have been professionalized. It’s why many jobs which used to require nothing but a high school diploma now require at least a certification program. It is a way to weed out people who don’t make good employees. When a job is available to someone and they literally didn’t have to do a single thing but fill out an application, you’re going to see a high percentage of unsuitable applicants. 

I absolutely can concur with highlighted

But I have to disagree with your last paragraph.  In my previous life, working in corporate finance I saw soooooo many young people who had all the degrees and certs and even licenses such as CPA and made very poor employees.  My husband, who works for a huge international company as a software engineer says that he sees the same thing.  He had an employee who he had to have "talks" with about - get this - answering emails and phone bc no  one could reach him, find him during core, 9-3 hours.  It went on for about 6 months.   Then the guy quit bc he said the "job was too demanding".

Also, last year we tried to hire a professional to some work on our house.  I can not even count the number of people who didn't show up.  Or showed up but didn't give us estimate.

[Sneezyone]

On 5/17/2019 at 9:39 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Not to mention the “adults should get training if they want better wages” is bogus. The nature of employment is the more flooded the market with availability the less the pay. And because of that, there’s literally a limit to how many people can take the training. For example, there could be 300 people with the desire and no how and ability to be wonderful nurses here but the local colleges offering those programs only take about 80 students a year. Much of the medical shortage is partly because the professions want to make sure they have just enough to be paid well and not enough to dilute the demand that allows them to be paid well.  This is true of a great many professions that pay well. There’s quite a few barriers to attaining that great pay and or other setups keeping the demand high.

 

Law is an EXCELLENT example. Bar associations are a HUGE barrier to creating a robust cadre of legal professionals who can assist people who cannot afford a lawyer but need legal advice...something like a PA program for the law. They simply won't allow it.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

27 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

While I think Heigh Ho's characterization is off, I also think 2002/8 numbers are woefully out of date. My mom is 67, almost 68, and she works as a substitute teacher as often as she can. She NEEDS the money because she did not prepare for old age. She is not alone among her age cohort. I think the people who are mostly likely to still be working at these ages are those in 'knowledge' professions tho, people who have degrees and don't have to expend tons of physical energy. These are probably also the same people who were not working minimum wage jobs in their prime.

The uptick began in 2008.  The increase in the 65-70 group was much higher than in the 70+.  The 75+ had an increase but smaller than the others.  Those working over 75 are still a distinct minority for many reasons.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

The uptick began in 2008.  The increase in the 65-70 group was much higher than in the 70+.  The 75+ had an increase but smaller than the others.  Those working over 75 are still a distinct minority for many reasons.

 

Perhaps, but I also think those numbers are too out of date to capture the increasing numbers of aging boomers who need to (and do) work. Every year, millions more age up. I think it is highly likely that, in two and a half years, my mom will still be working in some capacity.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

31 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Law is an EXCELLENT example. Bar associations are a HUGE barrier to creating a robust cadre of legal professionals who can assist people who cannot afford a lawyer but need legal advice...something like a PA program for the law. They simply won't allow it.

 

I was excited to see that WA state was offering a legal technician/associate type licensing level in certain practice areas- including family law where abuse survivors often end up going pro se over something as important as maintaining custody of their kids.  Then I realized that the practice level still precludes them from representing a client in ANY hearing. In the past 5 years, I have had several family law attorneys ask me or a family member point blank why I wasn’t a lawyer.  Most recently, this happened a few months ago when my brother’s pro bono lawyer was passing his divorce case onto another pro bono lawyer when she was promoted at the non-profit that provided the pro bono service.  The new lawyer remarked that the writing in all of my brother’s statements and paperwork was very well written.  His old lawyer and my brother commented that it was largely because I was a strong writer and editor and understood how to present things in a compelling way, as I have been doing almost all of the writing.  The old lawyer turned to my brother and asked “is there a reason why your sister isn’t a lawyer?” 

The lawyer that my exBIL is paying to the tune of $40k and counting?  Is a total nitwit and can not either write well or hire someone who does.  More than one judge has barely contained their displeasure with the lawyer.  It works out for us that his lawyer is an idiot but that’s beside the point.  

I could go to law school now and specialize in family law.  Is it worth three years of forgone wages and debt at my age *when I can already make six figures without going through all that?*  I’d be happy to work for a non-profit as a lawyer representing people in family law cases.  Do I need some additional training to capably do so?  Sure.  Do I need 3 years of law school and $100k+ in debt to capably do so?  Probably not.  Do I have the option of going to school just for family law to save time and/or money?  No, no I do not.   Do most people facing family law disputes have $250+ an hour to pay for the services?  No, no they do not.  

It’s a pretty awful situation for the people who go without legal help through some of the worst times of their lives AND for people who could, given some affordable path to do so, fill a big need while making an ok if not super high salary.  If I did go to law school now, my expected starting wage at a non-profit would be about $65k a year.   I make more per hour now and my job is easier.  All of my lawyer friends tell me they learned most of what they use to practice law once they were working.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

I was excited to see that WA state was offering a legal technician/associate type licensing level in certain practice areas- including family law where abuse survivors often end up going pro se over something as important as maintaining custody of their kids.  Then I realized that the practice level still precludes them from representing a client in ANY hearing. In the past 5 years, I have had several family law attorneys ask me or a family member point blank why I wasn’t a lawyer.  Most recently, this happened a few months ago when my brother’s pro bono lawyer was passing his divorce case onto another pro bono lawyer when she was promoted at the non-profit that provided the pro bono service.  The new lawyer remarked that the writing in all of my brother’s statements and paperwork was very well written.  His old lawyer and my brother commented that it was largely because I was an strong writer and editor and understood how to present things in a compelling way, as I have been doing almost all of the writing.  The old lawyer turned to my brother and asked “is there a reason why your sister isn’t a lawyer?” 

The lawyer that my exBIL is paying to the tune of $40k and counting?  Is a total nitwit and can not either write well or hire someone who does.  More than one judge has barely contained their displeasure with the lawyer.  It works out for us that his lawyer is an idiot but that’s beside the point.  

I could go to law school now and specialize in family law.  Is it worth three years of forgone wages and debt at my age *when I can already make six figures without going through all that?*  I’d be happy to work for a non-profit as a lawyer representing people in family law cases.  Do I need some additional training to capably do so?  Sure.  Do I need 3 years of law school and $100k+ in debt to capably do so?  Probably not.  Do I have the option of going to school just for family law to save time and/or money?  No, no I do not.   Do most people facing family law disputes have $250+ an hour to pay for the services?  No, no they do not.  

It’s a pretty awful situation for the people who go without legal help through some of the worst times of their lives AND for people who could, given some affordable path to do so, fill a big need while making an ok if not super high salary.  If I did go to law school now, my expected starting wage at a non-profit would be about $65k a year.   I make more per hour now and my job is easier.  All of my lawyer friends tell me they learned most of what they use to practice law once they were working.  

 

This is/was precisely my experience with legal education/practice. My mom became a lawyer before the tuition arms race and I had the misfortune of attending law school after. The public is not well-served by the monopoly that state and federal bar associations have over the profession and neither are students. Most of what you do as a lawyer is research and writing, not courtroom appearances, and most of that is learned prior to law school or on the job. Law school didn't teach me a damn thing about how to think. It only gave me a background in how the law has approached issues in the past. It's kind of a racket.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

This is/was precisely my experience with legal education/practice. My mom became a lawyer before the tuition arms race and I had the misfortune of attending law school after. The public is not well-served by the monopoly that state and federal bar associations have over the profession and neither are students.

 

Probably more irritating is that law school and the bar exam don’t even weed out the nitwits.  My exBILs attorney has literally whined to the judge about the court rules and once, on arriving and finding there was no hearing because they’d missed a deadline to confirm the hearing, apparently threw a tantrum in the clerk’s office, which we found out because the clerks are friendly with the lawyers at the organization representing my brother.  I literally HATE my exBIL and could think of any number of ways to better present his case than it has been presented.  I’ve never been to law school but I could definitely tell you that whining is a bad idea and pissing off the clerk seems like a punk move.  🤣

My exBILs attorney has lost every single motion.  

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, LucyStoner said:

 

Probably more irritating is that law school and the bar exam don’t even weed out the nitwits.  My exBILs attorney has literally whined to the judge about the court rules and once, on arriving and finding there was no hearing because they’d missed a deadline to confirm the hearing, apparently threw a tantrum in the clerk’s office, which we found out because the clerks are friendly with the lawyers at the organization representing my brother.  I literally HATE my exBIL and could think of any number of ways to better present his case than it has been presented.  I’ve never been to law school but I could definitely tell you that whining is a bad idea and pissing off the clerk seems like a punk move.  🤣

My exBILs attorney has lost every single motion.  

 

Nope. That's because legal education is designed to be a war of attrition. Who's willing to stick it out through the BS to grab the brass ring? The Bar Exam is the same way. It's a gatekeeper, not a guarantee. Take it as many times as you want until you pass.

[Frances]

On 5/18/2019 at 2:19 PM, Murphy101 said:

 

Yes.  I mentioned that previous too.  I don't care how qualified and great someone would be at being a doctor or an engineer, the system is set up to limit the number of people accepted into such programs specifically to assure a demand that will give higher incomes.  This is true of nearly all well paid professions and in those it didn't used to be, programs sprung up to prevent a glut of professionals and protect higher wages. For example, nursing didn't used to be so difficult to get into.  Now it is.  And jobs that don't require a degree are not necessarily free to learn either.  Having a trade often requires expensive training, tools, licensing, insurances, overhead and more.  It might be less than an MD, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily affordable or more attainable either.

So true. State nursing programs here are ridiculously competitive. You have to have pretty close to a 4.0 in prerequisites to be accepted. For RN programs at community colleges, it’s basically a waiting game until your name moves to the top of the list. For BSN programs, it’s just an objective numeric formula now due to the very high number of qualified applicants. The only way around this is having the $ for one of the very few private schools with nursing programs or doing as several young people I know did and going to an out of state private for an accelerated post-bac BSN. 

The number of doctors in the US is limited by the number of residency slots, but even then, we don’t remotely have enough medical school slots to fill them. The remainder are taken by US grads of foreign medical schools (a somewhat risky proposition for many) and foreign grads of foreign medical schools. Yet thousands of qualified applicants are turned away every year, and the US ranks quite low in the number of medical school graduates relative to our population. https://data.oecd.org/chart/4JWk

Other medical professions, like pharmacy and physical therapy, now require a doctorate for new grads, meaning more years and more debt. And pharmacists who want to work in hospitals often complete one or two years of residency after the doctorate. While certainly things have gotten more complicated over the years, part of the push for higher degree requirements by the respective professional organizations is definitely tied to maintaining relatively high incomes. Not just to keep the number of grads low, but also to justify the pay.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Perhaps, but I also think those numbers are too out of date to capture the increasing numbers of aging boomers who need to (and do) work. Every year, millions more age up. I think it is highly likely that, in two and a half years, my mom will still be working in some capacity.

 

The last number wasn't from 2008.  The uptick began at that time.  Currently 75+ in the workforce is around 10%.  There is an expectation the % will grow as life expectancy increases, but it will always be the lowest.

[Tanaqui]

7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I would suggest that your NYC experience has nothing to do with the realties of rural America.  My son is highly privileged in that he has a newer paid for Prius, with the insurance paid for by his dad, tuition paid for by his dad, and free room and board paid for by myself and my dh.  Plus he gets an allowance from his dad to buy gas and other expenses.  It isn’t the normal experience.

 

The USA is a heavily urbanized nation. 80% of us live in cities or suburbs close to cities. I get that cars are more necessary in the rural parts of the country, but....

With that said, some NYC students travel an hour to get to school, but the DOE considers it a legitimate hardship if you travel more than 75 minutes, and will issue a transfer to another, closer school in that situation. The average NYC 9th grader lives 31 minutes away from their school, and commute times of 60 minutes or more are rare - even more rare for students who are not attending a highly in-demand school such as Stuyvesant, LaGuardia, or ICE. Only about 10% of high school students in NYC have commutes of an hour or more. If my kids hadn't been so bound and determined to go to school off the Island, they'd attend a high school 20 minutes away.

An hour long commute is not a joke, especially not when you have multiple obligations. Somebody who ONLY needs to attend school or work can hack it, but I wouldn't ask somebody to commute an hour to school, while also juggling a full time job, running a household, and raising children. Lots of people will experience burnout if they try that, and then they won't get good grades or make a good income, and their house will be a mess.

Quote

Also, last year we tried to hire a professional to some work on our house.  I can not even count the number of people who didn't show up.  Or showed up but didn't give us estimate.

 

You know, I really don't understand this about contractors. WHY DO THEY MAKE IT SO HARD FOR US TO GIVE THEM OUR MONEY? The advice is always "shop around, take the middle estimate" and my reality is "call everybody, throw all your cash at the one who shows up".

All our kids ought to become plumbers. That must be where the money is, because all these folks who never show up are still solvent.

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

The uptick began in 2008.  The increase in the 65-70 group was much higher than in the 70+.  The 75+ had an increase but smaller than the others.  Those working over 75 are still a distinct minority for many reasons.

I’m sure. 2008 is about when retirement accounts and home values were tanking. How many had the guts to retire on so much less?

I was going to say “I can’t imagine...” but the reality is that I worry about it all the time. What if my family’s investments don’t do well? What if Social Security is even worse than we think it’s going to be (which is already worse than what we’re being told to expect)? What if Medicare gets even crummier? What if we face unexpected health issues that shorten our time to meet goals? What if our kids go through things that need our help?

If I have these fears in my statistically “comfortable” place, I don’t know how a large chunk of the population deals other than not to think about it as they try to get through each day.

[SKL]

Re lawyers, I agree it is somewhat of a racket, or at least it was when I was getting licensed.  The year I took the bar exam in my state, only like half of the candidates passed.  Besides that, the fancy lawyer jobs were pretty much reserved for the top 10 or 20% of law graduates.  I was content working in industry (in-house lawyer), but it was very hard to pay off my large student loans, because law school tuition is the same whether you're at the top or bottom of your class.  😛  (It did teach me how to live frugally though.)  So for a while I wondered if I should regret my education.  But in the long run, it was a good investment, when coupled with business experience.  Like anything else we do, success is mostly sticking it out through the tough times.

[SKL]

As for contractors ... I don't recall ever having someone not show up for a job, unless you count the wildlife lady (raccoons in our basement) who "usually" showed up but sometimes forgot ....

But I agree, many of those jobs pay quite well.  I do think that the well-paying ones have barriers to entry.  Like if you know someone, you probably have a better chance.  You can also probably get your training at a lower cost.

[LucyStoner]

House cleaning companies have training and performance metrics you have to meet to become a permanent employee.  I know several people who were let go from Student Cleaning after their probationary periods for missing surfaces or not making the time limits. Not for absenteeism or misconduct.  Just couldn’t meet their standards.    

Most everyone can clean.  Not everyone can be a paid professional cleaner.  

There’s also jobs that are skilled that require education and training that still pay terribly.   Depending on where you live and the level you teach, teaching can be like that.  Librarians.  Journalism.  Opera singers and ballet dancers.  I know people in each of these professions who are out earned by housekeepers and grocery store clerks.  If one thinks grocery clerks are unskilled, one has clearly never noticed the difference between properly and improperly bagged groceries or how much longer it takes to get out of the store when the checker doesn’t know what they are doing or do it well.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by LucyStoner