Been a LOOONG time--need advice re colleges for my junior

[Halcyon]

Hi everyone-

i used to be very active on these boards but life changes have prevented me from getting on for a long time. (divorce--blech)

Anyway, my 16 yo junior has been homeschooled since the beginning. He does well in school and has taken a few community college classes and enjoyed them and done well. He is taking the SAT tomorrow for the first time, and has severe test anxiety and ADHD so I am a bit concerned. He HAS been working a lot with Khan Academy, really applying himself and taking a lot of practice exams, but my guess is he will get around 1250 to 1300 on his first test (plans on taking the SAT three times). Interestingly, my math-y kid does better on the Reading and Grammar portion--about 690, than he does on the Math section. He works too slowly. We applied for accomodations but were rejected and did not have time to reapply before the March SAT. He does take Adderral on test days which helps a bit.

He has a 3.8 unweighted GPA and took one AP class AP Calc and got a B+, but did poorly on the actual exam. He is a kind-hearted, thoughtful boy, somewhat introverted until he gets to know you. He does better in a supportive, small-ish environment with supportive and caring teachers who try to figure out where he might be going wrong (as opposed to competitve and punishing environments). He is NOT a 'true academic'--he does what's needed but does not kill himself by any means. He has travelled a LOT--Japan, France, Spain, Italy, and more--and this has comprised a lot of his homeschool experience and is really the reason he continued homeschooling in high school--he wanted to travel with his father as much as possible. He wants to major in International Studies and perhaps French and has an interest in Business (but wants a liberal arts education).

He is a top bowler and competes, and was recently invited to an Invitational in Tampa--he's only been bowling 6 months so this is pretty impressive (to me at least LOL!!). He is a 2nd degree Black Belt in TKD--been doing TKD for 10 years-- and also works as a camp counselor on the weekends and summer.  He has recently joined some clubs at our local high school--environmental club and business club, but definitely got a late start in terms of being involved. He has no interest in a party school or one with a greek system or even varsity sports--he just enjoys hanging out and playing club sports, but competitive sports (except for Bowling) are not his thing.  Liberal socially is important to him. 

He is looking at schools that, IMO, are going to be hard for him to get into. The problem is, any school that admits more than, say 50% of their applicants, he somehow thinks he is "better" than that, I have tried to talk to him about how hard it is to get into these top colleges, but he tells me i am being "negative" and 'unsupportive". 

Here are the schools he is eyeing (he recognizes that some are true reaches, but IMO there are no real safeties here).

• Amherst (!!)
• Vassar (!!)
• Macalester-this is his first choice right now. 
• Colby
• Cornell College
• Grinnell
• Wooster
• Goucher-this is one i am trying to get him to look at. 
• Knox-doable, but i dont think he's that interested. Grrrrr..
• Hampshire--this is probably out due to their precarious financial situation and their lack of aid, but the IDEA of the school appeals to him.
• Eckerd (i think he can get in here, but he does not want to go to school in Florida, which is where we live).

 

Finances are a factor--he does not want to take on more than 20,000 in debt. He has savings in his 529 which will def help, but my income (custodial parent) is very low, so my guess is he will get a good amount of grants. I know Eckerd gives a good amount of merit, which is why i want him to more strongly consider it, but as of now--nope. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Halcyon

[Hoggirl]

You may already know this, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for schools that use the CSS Profile, the non-custodial parent’s finances will also be considered.  Will your ex- be cooperative in filling out the Profile?  Will he be willing to contribute to ds’s college education? 

Have you run Net Price Calculators on these schools to see if they are affordable for you?  

I am a firm believer in focusing on finances even before worrying about gaining admission.  I would set a firm budget of what is affordable first. 

[CinV]

That SAT score and 100 volunteer hours would get him the top level of the  Bright Futures scholarship, which can be used at any college in Florida. It wouldn't cover the full cost of Eckerd, but it would certainly help.

[kokotg]

I think he'd have a great shot at getting into both Cornell College and Knox from that list, particularly if he can get the SAT up to a 1300 or so. Why isn't he interested in Knox? Is it the Greek life? We visited, and definitely left with the impression that it's not a dominant force on campus. My very anti-frat DS liked Knox a lot, and they offered him very good merit. Hendrix would be another one to look at for a likely admit and good merit. And Hendrix doesn't use CSS AND meets 100% of demonstrated need with certain test scores and grades (not super high, but I can't remember off the top of my head what they are), so that might help you out. Knox doesn't use CSS either, but they do have their own financial aid form--I can't remember if it asked about non-custodial parent income.

Edited March 8, 2019 by kokotg

[GoodGrief]

How is his writing? I do believe that interesting essays and a compelling personal story can overcome less than perfect stats. I'd try to get hold of essay questions as soon as they are released and have him work on those over the summer.

That said, he does need to identify one school that is assured admission and affordability. As Hoggirl said, the non-custodial parent's income will likely be considered (though there are exceptions.)

Grinnell is known for better financial aid, and my oldest with the less-than-perfect stats got in there a few years ago.

[Halcyon]

Cinv-he unfrotunately does NOT want to go to school in Florida. I am continuing to try and convince him. ,

[kokotg]

...and, while you're absolutely right to make sure he has some good safeties on his list, you never know about the reaches. I can see somewhere like Vassar finding a kid who's a solid but not exceptional student with some quirky ECs like bowling really intriguing (especially a male one, in Vassar's case)

[Hoggirl]

^I agree. Ds had a friend who was accepted to Vassar with those range of stats.  This was five years ago, but it is easier for males to gain admission to some of these LACs.  He did wind up at Eckerd, and then transferred to Hendrix at semester.  Lol. 

[Halcyon]

15 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think he'd have a great shot at getting into both Cornell College and Knox from that list, particularly if he can get the SAT up to a 1300 or so. Why isn't he interested in Knox? Is it the Greek life? We visited, and definitely left with the impression that it's not a dominant force on campus. My very anti-frat DS liked Knox a lot, and they offered him very good merit. Hendrix would be another one to look at for a likely admit and good merit. And Hendrix doesn't use CSS AND meets 100% of demonstrated need with certain test scores and grades (not super high, but I can't remember off the top of my head what they are), so that might help you out. Knox doesn't use CSS either, but they do have their own financial aid form--I can't remember if it asked about non-custodial parent income.

 

Re Knox-I think it's just the location and the lesser-known nature. His dad is a school snob and unfortunately, it's rubbed off on him. 😞

[Halcyon]

13 minutes ago, kokotg said:

...and, while you're absolutely right to make sure he has some good safeties on his list, you never know about the reaches. I can see somewhere like Vassar finding a kid who's a solid but not exceptional student with some quirky ECs like bowling really intriguing (especially a male one, in Vassar's case)

 

 

Thank you. I am NOT discouraging him from applying (much as he thinks I am) but rather concerned that he doesn't have enough "I love this school and am pretty positive I will get in" schools on his list. 

[CinV]

18 minutes ago, Halcyon said:

Cinv-he unfrotunately does NOT want to go to school in Florida. I am continuing to try and convince him. ,

Make sure to do the application during his senior year, anyway (super simple application, took maybe five minutes). If he changes his mind and decides to come back to a FL school, it can be reinstated in later years.

[Halcyon]

Thoughts on Goucher? Anyone have a child there?

[TarynB]

You didn't ask for advice about this, so please ignore if it isn't welcome. Your comments about ADHD and being a slow test-taker and taking his Adderall only on test days caught my eye. My DH is diagnosed ADHD and has to take medication. He can't focus on his work without it and would be seen as a slow worker without it. His brain tries to do EVERYTHING at once. I've known him since high school. He's very capable but he struggled academically in high school and college . . . he didn't seek medical help for his ADHD until well into adulthood . . . so that's where I'm coming from with my thoughts. Why is your son only taking his medication on test days? That is a red flag to me. Yes, medicating for ADHD is very individual and it can be a process to land on the specific medication that will work best for any particular person. (I'm sure you probably already know this.) Maybe your son could consider talking to his doctor more about his ADHD if he needs/wants to bring up his test scores for targeting schools such as the ones on his list. Just a thought, please ignore if not wanted. 

[Bootsie]

If he is interested in business and a liberal arts education, he might consider St. Mary's Univ in San Antonio.  To apply or the Greehey Scholars program, he would need at least a 1290 on his ACT, but it provides full tuition and housing, in addition to monies for international travel.  

https://www.stmarytx.edu/academics/business/programs-and-centers/greehey-scholars-program/

[whitestavern]

Has he considered taking the ACT? My son has applied for accommodations for SAT and ACT (ADHD) and heard back from the ACT within two days of the request. (still waiting to hear on SAT) My daughter got a much much higher score on the ACT vs SAT - some kids just do better with one over the other.

[Arch at Home]

You might also look at test optional schools. 

[katilac]

I agree that none of those are real safeties, and I'm not seeing too many strong matches either. He definitely needs to expand the list. I told my kids that two true safeties were required, period, the end.  I was paying all the application fees and driving to all the colleges, and filling out two safety applications was the least they could do for my nerves, lol. No, I won't make you go to that school, but I can and will make you fill out the application, and you will have the choice. 

[Frances]

23 hours ago, kokotg said:

I think he'd have a great shot at getting into both Cornell College and Knox from that list, particularly if he can get the SAT up to a 1300 or so. Why isn't he interested in Knox? Is it the Greek life? We visited, and definitely left with the impression that it's not a dominant force on campus. My very anti-frat DS liked Knox a lot, and they offered him very good merit. Hendrix would be another one to look at for a likely admit and good merit. And Hendrix doesn't use CSS AND meets 100% of demonstrated need with certain test scores and grades (not super high, but I can't remember off the top of my head what they are), so that might help you out. Knox doesn't use CSS either, but they do have their own financial aid form--I can't remember if it asked about non-custodial parent income.

I agree on Knox and Cornell. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Frances

[mom1720]

I would take a look at Dickinson, particularly their International Business and Management major.  They are a CSS profile school, however, so not sure how that may look for you financially.

[Matryoshka]

Has he considered UMass? I know it's a huge school, but you can take classes at both Amherst and Hampshire for free if you go there.  For sure very liberal, great language and business programs. There are ways to make a big school seem smaller.

[catz]

Honestly, I think you need to be working on his attitude with regard to school acceptance rates/school names.  I think with a kid with anxiety and ADHD and a kid that needs good financial help and a kid you don't think is an academic type, you will want his stats to be at the 75% or up for best luck both with admissions and with FA and with academic success for someone who struggles a bit.  We've been looking at colleges for a couple years now.  I really do think acceptance rates can be a very misleading statistic.  Lawrence University in Wisconsin has a 65% acceptance rate.  But honestly, we found it very similar to Oberlin for quality and feel looking closer.  (On that note - check that one out)  We've looked at some urban schools in interesting locations with low acceptance rates and wondered what the hoopla was about.  Has he visited campuses?  The super quirky vibe at some of these very academic schools might be a turn off.  Or they might get his wheels turning, who knows, but it does help to set foot on a few.

Actually if he is interested in smaller schools, the colleges that change lives list is a great starting point with extremely high quality academic options that aren't quite as competitive that can be generous with aid (merit and/or FA).  If he is taking his first SAT now spring of junior year, and he's going to take it 2 more times, chances are in the next 6 months he may gain a little but he's not going to gain a lot of academic skills where like you might see a larger jump with another level of math or another year of honors lit or something like that.  He may get more comfortable with the format/let go of a little anxiety.  My kid gained the equivalent of about 100-120 (he took the ACT so I'm guesstimating) on the SAT between spring sophomore and spring junior year with a full year of academics.  Anyway - I wouldn't assume he's going to make huge gains on standardized testing in a few months.  In fact if he took it one more time with prep and his score were very similar to the first time, I'd just call it.  

I'd also see what NPC's look like (and not all of them are probably set up well to work with divorced parent info), check what schools require the CSS because both parents income will definitely come into play at many private schools.   You can call admissions/FA offices directly and ask very pointed questions about how they compute.  I'm just not even sure if someone who struggles with testing and ADHD/anxiety is going to have the best experience at the most competitive school they can get into.  Especially a kid that doesn't "stay in their lane" with regard to what other students are doing around them.  I have one anxious kid, so that's why I added that last sentence.   That may not apply to your kid!

My senior has a 99% ACT and has schools on his final list that have higher than a 50% acceptance rate.  They're hand picked for good academics and a strong program of interest for him.  Some of have elite stat honors programs.   And really, we can pay for them.  Finances are important.  

ETA - here is the CTCL website.  At the end of the day make sure he applies to safeties he will attend and that you can pay for.  I told my kid he could apply to all the reaches he wants AFTER the safety apps were done.  My kid was a bit immature with regard to understanding the finances and wanting a school with a "name" at the beginning.  He gets it much better now so it's been a process.

https://ctcl.org/

Edited March 9, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[catz]

Oh - BTW I know an ADHD young man at Cornell College at Iowa who is having a GREAT experience there.  That is a school that you just work on one class at a time for 3 week increments I believe.  That family got an amazing financial deal there too.  I really think that one could be a winner.  SAT averages are not super high either.

[Jilly]

On 3/8/2019 at 8:48 AM, Hoggirl said:

You may already know this, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for schools that use the CSS Profile, the non-custodial parent’s finances will also be considered.  Will your ex- be cooperative in filling out the Profile?  Will he be willing to contribute to ds’s college education? 

Have you run Net Price Calculators on these schools to see if they are affordable for you?  

I am a firm believer in focusing on finances even before worrying about gaining admission.  I would set a firm budget of what is affordable first. 

 

Agreeing with this as a single parent. Schools that require the CSS Profile want both parent's financial info which is important to keep in mind. I would run Net Price Calculators before making a list. Some private schools don't use the CSS so keep an eye out for them. Also I would add more safety and match schools to his list to create a balance. Maybe look at more CTCL schools like Earlham or St. Olaf.

[JanetC]

You need to insist on some in-state, public safety schools, whether he wants to stay in Florida or not. Money buys you options, and lack of it often limits them. Don't let him hit submit on any dream schools until the safeties are done. (Many state U's don't have essays and are easy to do anyway.)

Read the financial aid pages carefully about whether you need to file ex's financial info.

Start your FAFSA early -- depending on when your divorce was/is official, you may be (in the prior-prior year FAFSA system) filing for financial aid based on a tax return that you filed with your ex, then having to subtract out his portion of the total income. This triggers verification. Get your documents in order.

[RootAnn]

Hey Halcyon! Glad to "see" you. Interestingly enough, Florida schools aren't that easy to get into! But, I do know that ratings/"name" is so luring for some kids (and some parents).

I think the most helpful thing you can do is to be very upfront on the amount of money your DS has to work with per year. Looking at the cost of attendance, running your EFC on the Net Price Calculators, and being clear on your budget in comparison to these might be the only thing that gets through to him.

Obviously, he still might not listen. Don't beat yourself up if he ends up taking a gap year because he didn't. Good luck.

[...................]

On 3/8/2019 at 8:32 AM, Halcyon said:

Hi everyone-

i used to be very active on these boards but life changes have prevented me from getting on for a long time. (divorce--blech)

Anyway, my 16 yo junior has been homeschooled since the beginning. He does well in school and has taken a few community college classes and enjoyed them and done well. He is taking the SAT tomorrow for the first time, and has severe test anxiety and ADHD so I am a bit concerned. He HAS been working a lot with Khan Academy, really applying himself and taking a lot of practice exams, but my guess is he will get around 1250 to 1300 on his first test (plans on taking the SAT three times). Interestingly, my math-y kid does better on the Reading and Grammar portion--about 690, than he does on the Math section. He works too slowly. We applied for accomodations but were rejected and did not have time to reapply before the March SAT. He does take Adderral on test days which helps a bit.

He has a 3.8 unweighted GPA and took one AP class AP Calc and got a B+, but did poorly on the actual exam. He is a kind-hearted, thoughtful boy, somewhat introverted until he gets to know you. He does better in a supportive, small-ish environment with supportive and caring teachers who try to figure out where he might be going wrong (as opposed to competitve and punishing environments). He is NOT a 'true academic'--he does what's needed but does not kill himself by any means. He has travelled a LOT--Japan, France, Spain, Italy, and more--and this has comprised a lot of his homeschool experience and is really the reason he continued homeschooling in high school--he wanted to travel with his father as much as possible. He wants to major in International Studies and perhaps French and has an interest in Business (but wants a liberal arts education).

He is a top bowler and competes, and was recently invited to an Invitational in Tampa--he's only been bowling 6 months so this is pretty impressive (to me at least LOL!!). He is a 2nd degree Black Belt in TKD--been doing TKD for 10 years-- and also works as a camp counselor on the weekends and summer.  He has recently joined some clubs at our local high school--environmental club and business club, but definitely got a late start in terms of being involved. He has no interest in a party school or one with a greek system or even varsity sports--he just enjoys hanging out and playing club sports, but competitive sports (except for Bowling) are not his thing.  Liberal socially is important to him. 

He is looking at schools that, IMO, are going to be hard for him to get into. The problem is, any school that admits more than, say 50% of their applicants, he somehow thinks he is "better" than that, I have tried to talk to him about how hard it is to get into these top colleges, but he tells me i am being "negative" and 'unsupportive". 

Here are the schools he is eyeing (he recognizes that some are true reaches, but IMO there are no real safeties here).

• Amherst (!!)
• Vassar (!!)
• Macalester-this is his first choice right now. 
• Colby
• Cornell College
• Grinnell
• Wooster
• Goucher-this is one i am trying to get him to look at. 
• Knox-doable, but i dont think he's that interested. Grrrrr..
• Hampshire--this is probably out due to their precarious financial situation and their lack of aid, but the IDEA of the school appeals to him.
• Eckerd (i think he can get in here, but he does not want to go to school in Florida, which is where we live).

 

Finances are a factor--he does not want to take on more than 20,000 in debt. He has savings in his 529 which will def help, but my income (custodial parent) is very low, so my guess is he will get a good amount of grants. I know Eckerd gives a good amount of merit, which is why i want him to more strongly consider it, but as of now--nope. 

 

They (edited to say CSS) will count his father's income, and any step parents income, into the situation, regardless of who pays the bills.  So you need to count your ex's and if he has any new wife, their income together plus yours. They don't just total it up, and they do ask you who is who and who lives where, but it won't help that your income is low, as much as you think it will.  In fact, if you and your ex together make even a moderate middle income wage, your kid won't even qualify for student loans, one of you or both, will have to take a Parent Plus.

Basically a child has to have a restraining order, or have been in the foster system, or the parent dead, for the parent (and even step parent's income) not to count on the (edited to say CSS) - and even then you have to provide documentation and proof.  🙂

(sorry for mixing it up, CSS includes all non custodial parents, fafsa does not, see below)

I think it's important to talk turkey with your kid- and say this is what I have, and these are the schools that you will get merit aid, and I would not pay for the reach schools until he finishes some applications, in good faith, with his best effort, at some merit-likely schools as well.  He sounds like a really great kid!  He has some awesome long-standing involvement and achievements which show excellent character and his SAT's are pretty good.  There are a lot of schools that would give him merit aid. 

I'll be in a similar boat with my daughter, and I really am trying to lay the groundwork now to say, you have to go to a school where you'll get some scholarships because her intended career makes very very little money in the beginning, you have to work your way up the ladder in a government job, and we don't want to carry high parent plus loans for her.  So we are saving everything we can now, but the reality is, she will have to go where either the tuition is a little lower or she gets some scholarships.  

Edited March 15, 2019 by Calming Tea

[gstharr]

If custodial parent means legally divorced with custody, then FAFSA will not factor father's income.  Should have divorce completed so that most recent tax return was filed as single, not joint. 

[8filltheheart]

7 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

 

They will count his father's income, and any step parents income, into the situation, regardless of who pays the bills.  So you need to count your ex's and if he has any new wife, their income together plus yours. They don't just total it up, and they do ask you who is who and who lives where, but it won't help that your income is low, as much as you think it will.  In fact, if you and your ex together make even a moderate middle income wage, your kid won't even qualify for student loans, one of you or both, will have to take a Parent Plus.

Basically a child has to have a restraining order, or have been in the foster system, or the parent dead, for the parent (and even step parent's income) not to count on the FAFSA - and even then you have to provide documentation and proof.  🙂

I think it's important to talk turkey with your kid- and say this is what I have, and these are the schools that you will get merit aid, and I would not pay for the reach schools until he finishes some applications, in good faith, with his best effort, at some merit-likely schools as well.  He sounds like a really great kid!  He has some awesome long-standing involvement and acheivements which show excellent character and his SAT's are pretty good.  There are a lot of schools that would give him merit aid. 

I'll be in a similar boat with my daughter, and I really am trying to lay the groundwork now to say, you have to go to a school where you'll get some scholarships because her intended career makes very very little money in the beginning, you have to work your way up the ladder in a government job, and we don't want to carry high parent plus loans for her.  So we are saving everything we can now, but the reality is, she will have to go where either the tuition is a little lower or she gets some scholarships.  

All students, regardless of parental income, can qualify for federal student loans. Income determines whether or not they can receive up to $3500 in subsidized loans, meaning interest deferral.

FAFSA does not consider NCP income. The issue is that the schools with the best need-based aid typically are not FAFSA only schools. They tend to use the CSS or their own form that asks for far more info than FAFSA and includes NCP and step-parent info.

[kirag714]

My academically-minded daughter, who admits that she is a bit stuck on the "prestige" of a school, visited Clark University and really liked it, so that's another one to consider (it's one of the Colleges that Change Lives). She was genuinely enthusiastic about it - Worcester has become a "cool" city and the school has innovative programs and excellent academics. I think it's another school (like Lawrence) where the admission rate does not tell the whole story. She was accepted EA with good merit aid, and depending on how things go in the next two weeks she may very well end up there.

The application process has a way of shifting goals and priorities as you start to confront what's realistic. Admission to the prestige schools are really lotteries - which is maddening - even for kids with 1500+ SATs and perfect GPAs. I am so grateful that we talked her into applying to some real safeties, and that she has some very good options as we head into the next few weeks and what could be a stack of rejection letters (hoping for at least 1 or 2 acceptances, but trying to prepare for anything).

Goucher was on my list as well as a safety, but I could not talk her into applying there!

[...................]

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

All students, regardless of parental income, can qualify for federal student loans. Income determines whether or not they can receive up to $3500 in subsidized loans, meaning interest deferral.

FAFSA does not consider NCP income. The issue is that the schools with the best need-based aid typically are not FAFSA only schools. They tend to use the CSS or their own form that asks for far more info than FAFSA and includes NCP and step-parent info.

 

So would it be safe to say that it would be best for OP to apply to a few of each- a few schools that use only FAFSA, and a few that use CSS and offer more merit and needs based aid?  

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

So would it be safe to say that it would be best for OP to apply to a few of each- a few schools that use only FAFSA, and a few that use CSS and offer more merit and needs based aid?  

No comment on where to apply bc if it were my student, the second he stated he was too good for affordable options, I would have told him to get over himself.  We absolutely do not accept the premise that elite schools are the only places for top students. 😉

Budget trumps everything here. Our kids have had excellent post UG outcomes, even having attended on very tiny budgets.

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

So would it be safe to say that it would be best for OP to apply to a few of each- a few schools that use only FAFSA, and a few that use CSS and offer more merit and needs based aid?  

In this situation, I'd go heavy on the FAFSA schools.  The CSS will take all of ex's assets including retirement, primary residence, everything, and assume it's all available for the one kid applying.  So in that case, need-based aid, even if 'more generous' really isn't.  Her 'need' will be so much less at a CSS school that it unless the ex is willing to pony up the $, it won't matter. The CSS schools told us our EFC was *twice* what our FAFSA said because they thought we should take out a home equity loan and empty our retirement accounts (other assets the FAFSA doesn't consider), and did not care that we had three kids to think of, nor that dh will already be in his mid-60's when they're done with school with $0 in pension, so how in heck are we supposed to pay back the home equity loan and replenish our retirement and, y'know, eat?  I called and challenged them, because I thought it had to be a mistake in calculations.  Nope.  They.don't.care.  All the money is for them.  If you're destitute and on the street after retirement, or the next kid has nothing left for them, too bad, so sad.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Agreeing with others that I would run net price calculators first and limit the first round of apps to schools that you know you can afford.  I want to put in another plug for Colleges that Change Lives.  That book helped us rethink the whole "prestige" thing.  If you can go to one of their college fairs, that can be helpful as well.  It doesn't look like they go to Florida, but they do go to Atlanta.  

On 3/8/2019 at 11:21 AM, kokotg said:

Why isn't he interested in Knox? Is it the Greek life? We visited, and definitely left with the impression that it's not a dominant force on campus. My very anti-frat DS liked Knox a lot, and they offered him very good merit. 

Wow.  That is very different than our impression of Knox when we visited.  We found the Greek life VERY dominant.  From our tour guide to all the bulletin boards to the very studious lunch companion who joined after a couple years because that was the only way to have things to do.  When we asked multiple people what life was like if you didn't join a fraternity, they looked at us like "well, why wouldn't you join?"  Before this visit, Knox was pretty high on ds' list since they looked great on paper.  Ds took it off the list after that.

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

 

Wow.  That is very different than our impression of Knox when we visited.  We found the Greek life VERY dominant.  From our tour guide to all the bulletin boards to the very studious lunch companion who joined after a couple years because that was the only way to have things to do.  When we asked multiple people what life was like if you didn't join a fraternity, they looked at us like "well, why wouldn't you join?"  Before this visit, Knox was pretty high on ds' list since they looked great on paper.  Ds took it off the list after that.

huh. Interesting. And our lunch companion was a senior who had never joined a sorority and said it wasn't a big deal at all. So much seems to depend on which people you happen to meet on your visit day. That said, we were there just before their winter break started--finals week--so we didn't see as many people out and about as we might have otherwise. Knox is 25% Greek, which was DS's unofficial cutoff point for which schools he'd consider. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

huh. Interesting. And our lunch companion was a senior who had never joined a sorority and said it wasn't a big deal at all. So much seems to depend on which people you happen to meet on your visit day. That said, we were there just before their winter break started--finals week--so we didn't see as many people out and about as we might have otherwise. Knox is 25% Greek, which was DS's unofficial cutoff point for which schools he'd consider. 

I think it might have been higher when ds was looking in 2011.  But the Greek presence was really visible that day.  It didn't help that our tour guide thought he was God's gift to sorority women.  Even after we said that ds was NOT at all interested in the Greek system, it was shoved down our throats.