How far in the past?

[Scarlett]

This is not a political post.  This is a question about how far back we should go to judge the character of a person.  And does the offense matter? If I told a lie 30 years ago am I a liar?  If I made a racist comment 30 years ago am I a racist?  I have done things I am deeply ashamed of.....I would hate to have it brought up now to judge my character.  

 

[itsheresomewhere]

IMO, those who are judging so much have so much more to hide.  We all do stupid stuff when we are younger.  There is something looking back we all admit was not a good idea.  To punish 30+ years later for petty stuff ( outfits, opinions way back as people change and grow,etc) is being petty itself.  I would like to hope people realize as we grow our opinions can change.  

Edited February 7, 2019 by itsheresomewhere

[Scarlett]

And some of this stuff....I literally, and honestly could not remember.  Just shaking my head at the stuff that can be brought up so many years later.  

[linders]

For me, it depends on the action (e.g., whether it was passive, ignorant racism versus an active attack on another because of race), how honest a person is about the past event, and what they have done consciously to change. 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by linders

[hippiemamato3]

There are some things that absolutely matter going back many years, and some that don't IMO. Lying about  minor things - no big deal. Racism, sexual assault - huge deal. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, linders said:

For me, it depends on the action (e.g., whether it was passive, ignorant racism versus an active attach on another because of race), how honest a person is about the past event, and what they have done consciously to change. 

 

I agree.  And I guess finding the reasonable line in the sand is not always easy.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

There are some things that absolutely matter going back many years, and some that don't IMO. Lying about  minor things - no big deal. Racism, sexual assault - huge deal. 

So are you saying if a person did a racist thing in high school.....but in the next 30 years by all accounts is not a racist....you still believe they are a racist?

[hippiemamato3]

I think it also depends on their motivation to suddenly come out and proclaim that they have changed - is there money involved? Did they come forward on their own and say they did something wrong in their past or were they caught? Those things impact the veracity of their "change." 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

So are you saying if a person did a racist thing in high school.....but in the next 30 years by all accounts is not a racist....you still believe they are a racist?

Honestly, yes. I would always doubt. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

Honestly, yes. I would always doubt. 

Interesting.  I was raised up in an all white county.  No black people for a hundred miles.  And it was a very racist environment.  I was raised very intentionally to NOT be a racist by a mother who WAS raised by racists (good people but very ignorant about race) .  So I heard all sorts of racists comments in my community.  Some of those people are very much still racists.  But they aren't all.  Most people grow and evolve.  

[Faith-manor]

I think there is a line there of things that can be overlooked and things that can't, and especially so when it relates to specific position, job, or role.

It isn't easy to know where to draw that line. However, if you think about it from say a security, public safety, or public policy position, then you can't just say it doesn't matter because it is quite possible that what the person said or did in the past could very much affect them now. So the difference between what the employer should use as disqualifying information for say a job at Walmart vs. a job at the NSA is just vastly different, and the past doesn't matter much in the first instance but can matter substantially in the second.

I think it is good in life to be open to people changing, maturing, etc. I do think however there are times when the additional scrutiny and judgment is warranted. 

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think there is a line there of things that can be overlooked and things that can't, and especially so when it relates to specific position, job, or role.

It isn't easy to know where to draw that line. However, if you think about it from say a security, public safety, or public policy position, then you can't just say it doesn't matter because it is quite possible that what the person said or did in the past could very much affect them now. So the difference between what the employer should use as disqualifying information for say a job at Walmart vs. a job at the NSA is just vastly different, and the past doesn't matter much in the first instance but can matter substantially in the second.

I think it is good in life to be open to people changing, maturing, etc. I do think however there are times when the additional scrutiny and judgment is warranted. 

I don't know who in their right mind would want some of these high profile jobs.  Anyone can be torn to bits by their past.  About the only thing I believe people can't recover from is being a pedophile.  I think there is something really wrong with them and I would never trust them around kids. In general though I believe people can change. And I believe teens or very young adults do say some off the wall things sometimes that they don't even believe.

[Lady Florida.]

I also think it depends on the action as well as on the person's response when the act comes to light. Sexual assault? Child abuse? It doesn't matter how long it's been. There are certain positions in society those people should not hold. Got in a bar fight or had a DUI when you were 23? Now you're 33 and lead an upstanding life and realize what you did was wrong? That shouldn't hold you back. 

 

32 minutes ago, linders said:

For me, it depends on the action (e.g., whether it was passive, ignorant racism versus an active attach on another because of race), how honest a person is about the past event, and what they have done consciously to change. 

 

Ignorant vs. active racism is big imo. While blatant racism was always recognizable, even (maybe especially) by racists themselves, ignorant racism is something many of us had to learn to understand. I think it's possible for even the most blatant racists to grow and change, though I also think they usually don't. What is more common is for someone who doesn't think they're racist to realize their words or actions are indeed racist. How they respond to that realization is what matters.

I think the same is true for forms of bigotry as well. I'll use myself as an example. I always thought of myself as progressive. I thought the following belief that I held in the 80s was open minded: "Gay people should be left alone to live their lives, even though being gay isn't normal." That was my belief and I thought it was quite progressive, left leaning, and modern because I believed in live and let live. I didn't see the subtle bigotry there. It wasn't until the 90s that I began to understand what was wrong with my belief and truly changed how I think. Yes, it's possible to examine one's beliefs and change them. Now it's true I didn't do anything, like say dress up as a "butch" woman for a party for laughs, but if that's where we draw the line, we'll never allow anyone to grow and change. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[AmandaVT]

I think another thing that matters is if someone is apologizing for getting caught or apologizing for something they have since learned was wrong. 

There are a lot of people out there who don't have horrible things in their background and managed to get through the '80s without being racist. 

[catz]

I haven't read comments.  To me it doesn't matter how far back it was.  It matters how you react in light of the offense now.  So if someone finds out something scandalous in your past do you downplay it, make excuses and say no big deal"?   Or do you step up and say "Yes, I did that.  I'm ashamed of that behavior.  I've changed and evolved since then."  and demonstrate how you have changed.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many adults to step up and admit they were wrong.   I think it's understandable that teens and young adults do stupid things.  I don't understand not taking responsibility and ownership of your actions.  

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don't know who in their right mind would want some of these high profile jobs.  Anyone can be torn to bits by their past.  About the only thing I believe people can't recover from is being a pedophile.  I think there is something really wrong with them and I would never trust them around kids. In general though I believe people can change. And I believe teens or very young adults do say some off the wall things sometimes that they don't even believe.

Scarlet, I've lead a pretty low key life by most standards, and I wouldn't want any of those jobs either! But I guess there are people who do really want them, and unfortunately, they have the consequence of dealing with the probing just for seeking the positions. Not my thing for certain, but many I know students majoring in poli sci, and I want to say, "You might just want to lay off the partying. Ya. You're young. But that may not be a legitimate enough excuse some day when you run for state senator or seek some policy adviser position or whatever." And of course when it comes to security clearance type things, if you need a high level one, man there is no room for error or forgiveness. 

[Lady Florida.]

1 minute ago, AmandaVT said:

I think another thing that matters is if someone is apologizing for getting caught or apologizing for something they have since learned was wrong. 

 

 

Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

I haven't read comments.  To me it doesn't matter how far back it was.  It matters how you react in light of the offense now.  So if someone finds out something scandalous in your past do you downplay it, make excuses and say no big deal"?   Or do you step up and say "Yes, I did that.  I'm ashamed of that behavior.  I've changed and evolved since then."  and demonstrate how you have changed.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many adults to step up and admit they were wrong.   I think it's understandable that teens and young adults do stupid things.  I don't understand not taking responsibility and ownership of your actions.  

Yes to both of these. The non-apology apology is way too common.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I haven't read comments.  To me it doesn't matter how far back it was.  It matters how you react in light of the offense now.  So if someone finds out something scandalous in your past do you downplay it, make excuses and say no big deal"?   Or do you step up and say "Yes, I did that.  I'm ashamed of that behavior.  I've changed and evolved since then."  and demonstrate how you have changed.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many adults to step up and admit they were wrong.   I think it's understandable that teens and young adults do stupid things.  I don't understand not taking responsibility and ownership of your actions.  

Yes to this.  When I hear a story that rings true or is proven true that the offender won't admit to....my thinking is hmm....now add liar to your faults.  

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Yes to this.  When I hear a story that rings true or is proven true that the offender won't admit to....my thinking is hmm....now add liar to your faults.  

Yes, often times the reaction to the discovery of the past indiscretion, and in the days following says more about the person than the original offense and especially so if the offense is not aggregious, criminal behavior.

[Loowit]

I think going back years to try to dig up dirt on a person says just as much, if not more, about the person doing the digging as it does about the person getting "caught".

I believe people can change. I have seen it in people I know and heard stories about amazing transformations in people.  I think that there are some times that something someone does takes away trust, like pedophiles, murderers, and the like.  I think that they can change, but I also think exercising caution is wise.

[Garga]

There are things I did in my twenties that I would never in a billion years do now.  I’ve thought many a time that if my younger self came forward in time, I would have a hard time being friends with her.  I was such a black and white thinker and harsh person back then compared to now.  I was ready to rain judgement on so many issues.  And nowadays I’m so grey it’s just not funny and when I run into a black/white thinker they drive me batty.

Once in a while, I’ll have an old memory that I hadn’t thought of since the day it happened pop into my head.  A memory that lies dormant for 20 years and I don’t even remember it.  I wonder what sort of “dirt” someone could find on me that isn’t even in any of my active memories.  I don’t *think* I’ve done anything news worthy, but maybe I’m not remembering something.  Maybe I said something horribly stupid in public one day and everyone remembers it and would report the horribly insensitive thing I said...but after all these years, I don’t even remember saying it at all.  And today, I would be aghast at the horrible thing I said.  Who even knows?  So...maybe I wouldn’t even know to stand up ahead of the disclosure and say, “I said this horrible thing!  I’ve changed now and am sorry,” because I wouldn’t even remember it.  

I think there are some things that if they’re disclosed for people in positions of authority over others that are deal breakers. But other things...they’re not deal breakers.  It’s people being stupid and then changing.  Each case is slightly different, though, depending on what they did and what sort of power they are seeking to hold.  (Ha—see the grey thinking in that last sentence? 😄 )

Edited February 7, 2019 by Garga

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Honestly, yes. I would always doubt. 

For some issues, I really feel like it’s only fair to give people time for growth. Especially when the original offense was during the persons teens and very early twenties. 

Because those decades are soooo influenced by your raising and environmental. 

I was raised around racist comments and jokes. As a very young person my attitude was “it’s only a joke” and now that my environment and perspective have changed, I’m ashamed of my past self and realize how mean and awful that is/was. 

So ive grown and changed. I’ve made friends with people of other races and that influences my change of attitude. 

For me it would depend on the age of the original transgressions and exactly what occurred. Cross burning and firebombing is a lot more horrible than making an offhand inappropriate comment.

eta: Ive never made racist jokes at all but there was a time when my attitude was “what’s that big deal?” About them.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Farrar]

In terms of interpersonal relationships and how people generally treat each other... I think everyone grows and changes. I mean, if someone was a jerk in high school, even if they laughed at others, said rude stuff... I can't take that too seriously for what their overall character is thirty years later. I think you have to let people grow and and change and make allowances for youth.

In terms of things that cross a certain line - like if someone raped, murdered, violently assaulted - then I think yes, people can change, but they have to work for it. If someone committed a crime like that (even if they weren't charged) then I think it's fair for it to follow them. It's fair for people to decide not to trust them or vote for them or let them in their lives. And if they care about change, they'll be open and honest and work to change their lives.

In terms of racism and bigotry... I think we have to start by acknowledging that we're all racist. That we live in a racist society. That we live in a sexist society as well. Language and culture has moved on these issues - we have better tools to discuss these things. We have a better understanding of how things that were seen as not a big deal decades ago are really a big deal. I don't think there's a single white American adult alive who never said or did anything that would be considered racist today, for example, even if we're only talking about things that might be classes as microaggressions or things that were inadvertent or well-intended. Same with sexism. I mean, now, if a man is the boss in an office and romantically pursues a woman who reports to him, we understand why that's inappropriate in a way that we didn't a few decades ago. I think we have to make some allowances and understanding of culture and the past. There are gray areas. But that doesn't mean everything is just forgiven because the person was "young" or "it was a different time." I mean, it's one thing for a professor to ask a student out decades ago... and another entirely for them to pressure a student not to reveal a relationship or to have sex or lose something, etc. It's one thing for a person to have made assumptions about the backgrounds of African Americans in their employ... and another to have a pattern of saying they wouldn't hire a black employee - even 30 years ago. When those things cross some sort of a line... I think we have to be honest about them, to listen and learn and not be defensive. I think when those things are bad enough - especially if the person in question has not made specific amends for it and instead gets "caught" or something - then I think it's fair for people to lose trust, to not hire a person or something along those lines.

[PrincessMommy]

8 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Interesting.  I was raised up in an all white county.  No black people for a hundred miles.  And it was a very racist environment.  I was raised very intentionally to NOT be a racist by a mother who WAS raised by racists (good people but very ignorant about race) .  So I heard all sorts of racists comments in my community.  Some of those people are very much still racists.  But they aren't all.  Most people grow and evolve.  

This... so much.  Especially when we compare ourselves to our teens and early 20s.  30 yrs is such a long time.  I know I've changed my views on a lot of things.  I hope for the better.  

[Mbelle]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

In terms of racism and bigotry... I think we have to start by acknowledging that we're all racist. That we live in a racist society. That we live in a sexist society as well. 

Yes, this is a good place to start.

I have found myself (and my children) feeling flustered as to how to respond with family who live in an all white area and do sometimes want to ask, just out of curiosity, about how racists it is where we live (deep south), but the very bizarre thing is that the place where they live is very racists/sexist but it is in a vacuum so it is not apparent to them.  Then it kind of feels weird to point that out to them, because it seems like then we would be being very offensive.  The very questions  themselves are naivly bigoted.  A couple of them go to a very fancy private school and I have wondered what the heck they teach them there.

Now to the original question.  I have to work at forgiving people.  It's not my natural default.  I do know a lot of people change and grow.  If I personally know the person that it is easier to believe as opposed to some popular figure.  

[ktgrok]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is not a political post.  This is a question about how far back we should go to judge the character of a person.  And does the offense matter? If I told a lie 30 years ago am I a liar?  If I made a racist comment 30 years ago am I a racist?  I have done things I am deeply ashamed of.....I would hate to have it brought up now to judge my character.  

 

It totally depends on what the person has done since, and how they handle the reminder of their youth. If they blow it off and act like they did nothing wrong, or worse, lie about it, well then I know they haven't really changed. If they acknowledge their mistakes, express their regret, and can explain how they are different now, than I'm willing to listen. 

[mom@shiloh]

19 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

There are some things that absolutely matter going back many years, and some that don't IMO. Lying about  minor things - no big deal. Racism, sexual assault - huge deal. 

I know many people who have come to be deeply sorry over past racism and inappropriate sexual advances. There needs to be a point at which you are no longer defined by your past failures. We all need that. What that point is, and how we determine a changed life and attitude -- for that, I don't know. 

[VaKim]

As at least one pp has said about herself, I am a completely different person than I was 30 years ago. I would not even like my younger self at all were we to somehow meet now. My beliefs, actions, motivations, etc. are nearly 180 degrees from what they were when I was younger. People grow and mature and change all the time. I hate when people dig up junk from the past to judge people in the present. If the person is repentant, let it go. 

[G5052]

I was an RA and then the head RA in college, so I know how things were in college when I was in the 1980's. My kids tell me college stories now, and one is a weekend warrior and tells me stories about the Army. Young people misbehave in ways that can change their lives down the road. Sometimes they hide it for years and years and hope it is gone. I've warned my kisa that not all decisions have the same consequences. Better to avoid trouble and treat people with respect. Watch who you hang out with. And so on...

At my undergraduate college, it was considered "funny" to wear blackface. Some people taunted the gay students, and date rape wasn't even called that then. It was assumed that the woman "deserved it." Going to a professor's office and seeing porn on their walls wasn't uncommon. There weren't any guidelines or rules that applied. The relativist ethics there looked the other way. I found it all disturbing, but there was little I could do to change the culture. I did what I could personally and stayed clear of the rest. Of course times changed, and those things are now considered offensive and can result in punitive actions on the part of universities. That's good. 

But something that happened years and years ago in an isolated incident? Something that they are not proud of and didn't continue? I'm inclined to let them go.

[Guest]

On 2/7/2019 at 11:03 AM, linders said:

For me, it depends on the action (e.g., whether it was passive, ignorant racism versus an active attack on another because of race), how honest a person is about the past event, and what they have done consciously to change. 

 

What she said. 

[SKL]

I also think we need to consider the context of the community in which it occurred.  What everyone would consider wrong here today might have been considered acceptable and completely benign in another time and place.  If you've done that thing there and then (and who hasn't?), it should be sufficient to say that you didn't understand the issue then but you do understand it now.

[SKL]

And ... this is why "good people" rarely run for office.  Because who among us is without sin?  Especially if opponents can go back several decades and bring up every questionable thing you ever did.

Earlier this year, my 12yo used her foot to open a door at school, because her hands were full.  They sent me an email with a video of her kicking the door opener bar, saying it could be considered vandalism.  And I'm thinking of the implications of my kid decades later being accused of a history of vandalism.  It's ridiculous IMO.  Did the person learn to be better in the intervening years?  Then drop it.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think the question is, "What does sincere repentance (going the opposite direction) look like?"
1. Acknowledging doing it. Lay out exactly the action in full.
2. Acknowledging the badness of it.  Laying out exactly how bad it was.
3. Acknowledging why it's so bad.  Laying out exactly the violation of morals involved.  
4. Acknowledging the effect of the bad thing.  Laying out exactly how it harms the individual, group, and/or society.
5. Asking forgiveness for the bad thing.  Laying out exactly how sorry and ashamed you are of your actions.
6. Accepting the consequences with humility. Laying it exactly the rightness of the consequences without fighting them.
No ifs, ands, buts; no comparisons to other things that considered worse; no whining about how the confrontation about it happened.
Once that's been done then there should be no whining about the scrutiny the offender should be subjected to making sure that there is behavior consistent with a complete about face on the matter.  Genuinely repentant people never say, "Yeah, I was wrong BUT the way you confronted me was wrong." Repentant people focus on their own actions.

Real life example:
My husband's best friend Rob had 2 teens daughters in the church youth group. One day all youth parents got an accidental email from the youth pastor.  It was porn.  He was a porn addict.  Rob's wife was the first to open it.  She immediately called all the other parents in the church directory and sent them emails not to open it because it was obscene.  She also alerted the church elders who immediately confronted youth pastor.  Youth pastor said he would gladly submit to church discipline because he knew looking at porn was wrong.  It violated the sacredness of sexuality inside marriage, it objectified women, it indulged lust, etc. 

Youth pastor was engaged to be married to the senior pastor's daughter.  He apologized to her and he understood if she wasn't willing to marry him, but wanted to marry her.  Her mother and father were in disagreement about her marrying him after the incident.  (I don't know how it resolved.) It was handled publicly.  The elders announced why he was being fired.  He apologized to the church and entered addiction treatment.  That's all I know about that. 

He'll never work as a youth pastor again or be in a leadership position.  That's appropriate.  If he continues in his new direction by not looking at porn again, and never being upset about all the consequences from looking at porn, then he's truly repentant.  It will take years of a track record to be able to determine that.  Trust is earned, not granted.

I assume we're really talking about The governor of VA.  If he was truly sorry he would've done something along these lines:
1. Admitting that the photo was him in blackface. The moronic decision to deny it is astounding. That wasn't just stupid, it was advanced stupid.
2. Acknowledging that blackface comes from the character Jim Crow and was/is used to mock, humiliate, belittle and insult African-Americans.
3. Acknowledging that blackface and its mocking perpetuate the lie that some people groups are superior and others are inferior. 
4. Acknowledging that when the lie of superiority/inferiority is believed it results in a violation of civil rights which is a violation of law and order and it violates the American ideals that America is a nation of laws, not a nation of men. (Lex Rex=Law is King.) It also erodes social civility based on respecting individuals.
5.  Apologizing for either thoughtlessly or intentionally insulting a whole group of people just to get some laughs from peers. Emphasizing how ashamed he is every time he thinks of what an incredibly stupid thing he did and asking for forgiveness. 
5. Accepting the his party's decision to demand his resignation or not.  Can he really represent a portion of his constituency he thoughtlessly or intentionally (which ever one it was has serious implications) mocked with a character based on an incredibly negative stereotype that has been a sore subject to them for more than a century?


Also, what kind of idiot politician didn't think this could come back to haunt and didn't have a plan in place to deal with it?  It's not 1895, not even in VA. Your sins will find you out.

[LaughingCat]

I believe for most people the answer really has to do with whether they believe the person is truly sorry and changed  (and sadly that doesn't normally seem to have much to do with the person's actual repentance).  And there is extremely little leeway given for past societal standards -- most people hold people to the standards of today for acts they committed 30 or more years ago (myself included). 

 

 

[kiwik]

On 2/8/2019 at 5:08 AM, Scarlett said:

So are you saying if a person did a racist thing in high school.....but in the next 30 years by all accounts is not a racist....you still believe they are a racist?

If the person denies that what they did was racist and tries to bluster their way through by denial yes.  If the person says when I was in high school I was ignorant and said/dad racist things.  A few years after school I learnt better and have spent the last 30 years fighting my upbringing and doing my best.  Then that is fine.  I am inclined to believe though that everyone is s little racist and we should be judged on how well we control and concepts it.  Other isms the same applies.