Parents of RAD kids - triangulation?

[bethben]

I am wondering about triangulation with a RAD kid.  At this point, my daughter will have a rage (this is way worse than a temper tantrum) with her yelling mostly at me and refusing to get by herself instead choosing to make sure I know she's angry.  Mostly, they start over something very small.  For the past four days, she has been raging off and on about us telling her she couldn't bring a certain toy to school.  My husband gets these rages also, but not as intense.  His solution is to give her grace.  I am unable since I have been the one to deal with these for the past nine years and I'm tired.  After the rage is done, he will go and read her a book, play a game with her, or even think of someplace special he can take her.  He feels like she needs love and love and grace will conquer this (although his patience is starting to run pretty thin also).  In the meantime, I am the mean mommy all.the.time.  I have told him that unknowingly, she is pitting him against me.  He doesn't feel that way.  I feel like she should pay for a lock for her brother's door since she is stealing his stuff, my dh feels like we should just take care of that.  Grace and love - why make her more angry at us than she already is?  Guess who checks her backpack for things she shouldn't bring to school or stuff from her brothers room?  Me.  Guess who enforces her having to stay close to the home when she's like this?  Me.  Guess who allows her to play with friends because it will help her be less angry?  DH.  Guess who lets her bring the contraband toy to school because he doesn't want a rage before school even though I specifically told her no?  DH.   So, the question is - Is she triangulating us or am I crazy?

[maize]

She's 9?

I dunno. I don't have an adopted child but I do have a couple of children with major emotional regulation difficulties.

I tend to respond to rages as your husband does, on the assumption that the emotionally volatile child needs help with regulation and so engaging them in a calming activity like reading a book can be helpful.

The toy issue needs to be resolved between you and dh--I would expect him to back you up once you have told the child no; if you have different thoughts on what is appropriate to bring to school and what is not you need to work that out between you. 

I would buy the lock myself not make her pay for it.

It sounds like you do the majority of the heavy lifting parenting; that is hard. Would your Dh go to counseling with you? I think it would be helpful if the two of you could decide on what boundaries you will both enforce; it is not fair for you to always be the enforcer with no backup.

I am hearing a lot of pain in your post. I am also maybe hearing a hardness towards your daughter. I am not an expert on RAD but I do find it hard to imagine that hardness is going to help any child. My instincts are much more in line with those of your husband.

I may be reading too much of my own situation into this though as my husband struggles with emotional regulation himself and tends to respond to a child's emotional dysregulation with anger and harshness and I absolutely refuse to back him up under those circumstances. I imagine the dynamic between you and your spouse is quite different from ours.

Have you ever read the book The Anatomy of Peace? I think you might find it interesting. This book has also been helpful to me: https://smile.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions-ebook/dp/B004ZLVCXE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1544459349&sr=8-1&keywords=parenting+a+child+who+has+intense+emotions

Are there any family therapists with experience dealing with RAD in your area?

(((Hugs)))

[East Coast Sue]

I’ve got an attachment disordered child (through adoption) who does this too. I’m generally less emotional/more grace but with firm limits. My dh is really unable or unwilling to get involved when our child is raging. I assume most responsibility- medication, therapy appts, school interaction with teachers, and hard stuff. My husband steps in for fun and easy stuff. Yeah, it’s hard. My child is manipulative but both my dh and I can see it so at least we both acknowledge that it’s a problem. 

 

(((Hugs))))

[Pen]

I have not specifically dealt with RAD .  I was lucky to have had a good therapist early to work on attachment to help prevent RAD.  

That said, with adopted child rage issues, the approach was to give lots of bonding activity time during non reactive periods.  To assist child with ways of appropriate expression of feelings. To assist with learning self regulation skills.  Time ins rather than time outs were used  .  

It requires a lot of work and care to not inadvertently reward and thus promote and perpetuate rages or other negative behavior.  That your child seems to be triangulating makes it seem that inadvertent reward seems to be a part of your situation .  

In addition to good therapist and an excellent yahoo group regarding RAD type issues, I found  the book The Explosive Child helpful. 

[bethben]

34 minutes ago, maize said:

She's 9?

I dunno. I don't have an adopted child but I do have a couple of children with major emotional regulation difficulties.

I tend to respond to rages as your husband does, on the assumption that the emotionally volatile child needs help with regulation and so engaging them in a calming activity like reading a book can be helpful.

 

Just for definition’s sake.  A rage is different than a child not regulating their emotions.  I will see her start one and suggest calmly she go to her room for 15 minutes and draw or read until she calms down a bit so we can have a normal conversation about it after she calms down.  By the time I notice a rage is on the horizon, she has given in to it.  What follows is three hours or so of her yelling and screaming at me.  There is nothing I can do to calm her down.  If I don’t intervene and try to get her somewhere else, she will look at me like she wants to kill me.  Usually, she will yell and scream outside of her door because going into her room would mean actually obeying me which is the opposite of her desire for control.  Yesterday involved her trying to bite me and punch me.  She’s 11.  The whole house is affected by this behavior.  I have three very calm biological boys also.  I took her to therapy to help her identify what emotions are a big deal and what aren’t. It also came with suggestions of how to calm down. I tried-she didn’t.  She didn’t care to work through the program.  

Yes, I have a hardness toward my daughter.  She has stolen peace from my house and replaced it with a child who rages and tells me she wishes I never adopted her and wishes she could live by herself away from me.  Add that type of attitude her whole time she’s spent in our house (9 years) and you have a mom whose emotions are fried.  She can be sweet one moment and even a whole week but I know that sooner or later, she’ll shift.  The last shift came out of nowhere and totally unexpected.  I guess she had had enough closeness.  Ask any mom who has a child with RAD.  It’s not pretty.  I now understand my adopted friend’s mom who seemed mean and unloving.  She was probably a nice woman at one point pushed to the edge.  

[bethben]

40 minutes ago, Pen said:

I have not specifically dealt with RAD .  I was lucky to have had a good therapist early to work on attachment to help prevent RAD.  

That said, with adopted child rage issues, the approach was to give lots of bonding activity time during non reactive periods.  To assist child with ways of appropriate expression of feelings. To assist with learning self regulation skills.  Time ins rather than time outs 

My DH and I tried a “time in” yesterday because they worked when she was little.  She would eventually calm down and allow herself to be snuggled after a lot of trying to hurt me.  Let’s just say it didn’t work.  She fought us and tried to bit, kick, and punch us.  She never calmed down.  

[73349]

I actually have heard multiple (non-adopted) kids in that age range express a frustrated wish to live out on their own, away from the rules and hassles of parents and siblings and school. They want more control over their lives. As best you can, try not to take that personally. It's like wishing to live in a candy castle.

It sounds like you and your DH are going to have to get on the same page about some things; undermining the other parent's already stated "no" is not grace, but confusion. Talking together with a professional might be helpful.

You've gotten her pretty far already--don't forget that. Best wishes to you.

[SKL]

This is a tough time with the hormones added to RAD.  Neither you nor she can do anything about that, unfortunately.

I assume you and your husband have discussed ways to be as consistent as possible.  I might add to that a reduction in access to electronics or anything that seems to over-stimulate her.  Maybe an increase in heavy exercise.

My eldest (not diagnosed with RAD but struggling with possible mini-RAD) at 11 was mostly past the point of wanting hugs etc.  What she did/does appreciate is being given more control over things that are safe for her to control. 

Is it reasonable to give her more leeway about things like what she brings to school, and let he school fight with her if she makes a mistake?  Are there other areas where you can give her control for better or worse, while still keeping charge of the most important things?

[Pen]

22 minutes ago, bethben said:

My DH and I tried a “time in” yesterday because they worked when she was little.  She would eventually calm down and allow herself to be snuggled after a lot of trying to hurt me.  Let’s just say it didn’t work.  She fought us and tried to bit, kick, and punch us.  She never calmed down.  

 

I’m sorry she is at a size, strength, age where that’s not working any longer. 

Do you have a definite RAD diagnosis?

[Acadie]

I'm not sure I'm familiar with this definition of "time-in"--is it maintaining physical contact when the child doesn't want it? If so, I think that's appropriate with a young child at risk of harming themselves or others, but not for a tween girl. I know you're dealing with extraordinary issues, but if "time-in" is what I described I think it would cause most tween girls to fight back, because among their most important developmental jobs are to differentiate from their parents (often us mothers, most of all) and to establish their own sense of bodily autonomy.

Sounds like with your daughter you're dealing with normal gender differences, compared to your boys, on top of the attachment issues. Girls vary, but for both my girls ages 11-12 have been the roughest. At 16, dd1 is much easier than she was at 11-12 (though she still has a few more years to surprise us...) but we are very, very much in the thick of things with our youngest.  

It's a challenge to meet the social, emotional, academic and recreational needs of girls this age. They often don't want you (or your input) around, but they still need supervision and limits and rides and bedtimes and screen limits and so on. They need both what you and your husband are trying to provide--lots of grace and lots of boundaries, given in a matter-of-fact, consistent manner. It's an art to figure out which is needed more at any given moment, but when I screw up I comfort myself with the knowledge that my tween will present me with a dozen more chances to try again before nightfall.

You've got so many challenges--please, please see a therapist with your husband to help differentiate between normal tween girl behavior and what's the "extra" you're dealing with due to attachment issues. You and dh need to get on the same page in your parenting, even if there are differences in your styles and chosen responsibilities. A good therapist could really help so you don't feel like you're the only one parenting.

Amy

[maize]

Is your husband home enough that he could take point in parenting this particular child?

It sounds like you have been pretty traumatized by dealing with her challenges and behavior over the years and trying to parent the person who has traumatized and continues to traumatize you is a tough burden to bear and maybe impossible to cope with in a way that could approach healthy for both of you.

[bethben]

Thankfully, I do have a therapist that has a 15 year old with RAD.  An hour with her goes fast though.  I’m trying to peel back some layers  during the week so I can get the most out of my hour.

[Jean in Newcastle]

What you call a rage sounds a lot like what I call a meltdown. Yes, it is different than a tantrum. One of the differences is that once it hits a certain point (quite early in the process) the person can no longer calm themself down. So asking them to go to their room isn’t an appropriate strategy at that point. 

What worked for us was:  anticipation of triggers. If I knew that I would have to say no to taking a toy, I would talk about it before the meltdown. I would talk about the feelings involved. And I would talk about how to handle things. (A concrete example might be. “Tonight we are going to get your backpack ready for school. I know that it makes you feel less anxious to have your special toy but the school has rules that make it so that you can’t take your toy. Instead, you can have this (fidget/ part of a blanket/ picture/ whatever might help) until you are home and can be with your special toy again. ). 

Another thing that helped:  being very proactive. I could tell from some clenched muscles etc when a meltdown was coming. I did calming techniques then before the meltdown took hold. Once the meltdown started there was nothing to do but keep people safe and wait it out. During the meltdown the person couldn’t even hear me. 

[Ottakee]

If she has big switches in her moods/behavior have you looked into a mood disorder?   I have one with mood disorder NOS and one with bipolar.  One had a diagnosis of RAD as well but once we found the correct meds things were so much better.

The book The Bipolar Child was very eye opening for me.  Does your daughter have any family history of mood disorders, bipolar, etc?

[Pen]

When I first posted, I thought your daughter was only 9. 

Some questions which you don’t need to answer, but asking seemed better than suggesting.  

Are you sure this is RAD and not fetal alcohol or some other problem or combination of problems perhaps along with RAD?

When she is in a calm state is she verbal, reasonably intelligent, and capable of discussion?

What is the contraband toy? And are there things like video games / screen time that could be adding to behavior issues?  Foods? Or physical allergens?  Anything that could be controlled (unlike hormones which probably play a part in it, but are what they are)?

would she be able/ willing to do some sort of meditation or perhaps yoga  as a regular daily practice?  Does she have substantial daily physical exercise? Have you tried a sugar / sweets and gluten / dairy / wheat free diet? 

 

[LarlaB]

7 hours ago, bethben said:

I am wondering about triangulation with a RAD kid.  At this point, my daughter will have a rage (this is way worse than a temper tantrum) with her yelling mostly at me and refusing to get by herself instead choosing to make sure I know she's angry.  Mostly, they start over something very small.  For the past four days, she has been raging off and on about us telling her she couldn't bring a certain toy to school.  My husband gets these rages also, but not as intense.  His solution is to give her grace.  I am unable since I have been the one to deal with these for the past nine years and I'm tired.  After the rage is done, he will go and read her a book, play a game with her, or even think of someplace special he can take her.  He feels like she needs love and love and grace will conquer this (although his patience is starting to run pretty thin also).  In the meantime, I am the mean mommy all.the.time.  I have told him that unknowingly, she is pitting him against me.  He doesn't feel that way.  I feel like she should pay for a lock for her brother's door since she is stealing his stuff, my dh feels like we should just take care of that.  Grace and love - why make her more angry at us than she already is?  Guess who checks her backpack for things she shouldn't bring to school or stuff from her brothers room?  Me.  Guess who enforces her having to stay close to the home when she's like this?  Me.  Guess who allows her to play with friends because it will help her be less angry?  DH.  Guess who lets her bring the contraband toy to school because he doesn't want a rage before school even though I specifically told her no?  DH.   So, the question is - Is she triangulating us or am I crazy?

 

I agree that you and DH need to get and stay on the same page, and I appreciate that it may not be easy. No matter the precise diagnosis, the amount of conflict and tension and dram is very very hard on a family and couple.

My best friend has a 13yo who has bipolar and wowser- ages 11 and 12 were just epic and horrid- I presume due to hormonal changes. 

The dad just wanted quiet and peace and would do whatever to accomplish that, and he would usually calm their DD down. The problem was, as you’ve said, mom was primary parent and disciplinary one and took the brunt of the viciousness from her DD- very physical, screaming rages etc. it created a lot of stress on their marriage.

What calmed everything down was a blend of meds for DD, therapy for mom, therapy for DD and more of a team approach. But it pushed them to their limits. 

I guess that’s what I wanted to share- it was extremely hard for them and from what I understand RAD is incredible complex and challenging. You aren’t necessarily doing anything wrong, it’s just super hard.  I would recommend therapy for you and your DH- protect and prioritize that relationship and try try try to get on the same page. 

You have my sympathy and compassion and respect for how hard you are working!

[TheReader]

((((hugs & prayers)))) 

I am not a RAD mom, but my youngest does have developmental delays, did have the kinds of rage/meltdowns you describe, and hopefully my similar but not the same experience can help some. (and, while not dealing with RAD, he likewise has never said "I love you" to me, or anyone, out loud, ever.....not spontaneously or even repeating it back to us, so.....there's that.)

So...as Jean has said, the primary key, exhausting as it is, was that I had to be hyper-vigilant to notice the super-ultra-beginnings before the rage/meltdown took hold, because once it starts, you are very right, there is no calming down; the person in the rage simply is truly not capable of self-regulating at that point, at all. It can't be done. So, this required me to be hyper-vigilant about what might set it off, and really be proactive, like Jean said. 

In our case, I kept a journal for a few weeks, noting every.single.thing. that resulted in a meltdown. Doing badly at a video game. Eating cereal. Saying NO to him about something. Etc. Some of that, I could tweak in order to avoid the meltdowns; some I could not. Video games, for instance, I could limit, but then there was the whole "saying no" part, which meant I had to decide.....say NO to the game (and risk a melt down), or say yes to the game (and hope he did well enough at it not to have the melt down). :sigh: Hard to predict, and oftentimes I would decide based on what we were doing at the time, honestly. Certain games were bigger triggers than others, so I could, sometimes, suggest he play a different game, and sometimes that would work. (or not. I'm sure you understand that part). 

But, we did learn from the journal -- cereal (particularly corn based) was a huge trigger. One particular brand was the biggest culprit, so we just simply did not buy it anymore. DH didn't believe me at first, so bought some anyway. I served DS the cereal on a day DH was home, and basically set a timer and told DH when the meltdown would start. He was shocked when I was right (and then the cereal really was banned).  Now, probably if your DD has a specific food trigger, you've likely noticed it already, but just in case....maybe something to note. DS's rages would come 30 mins to 45 mins after the cereal usually, and he was 8 or so when I finally figured that one out.....

The other thing for us was to figure out what in general/over all caused him the least stress. For him, routine. Had to have it. And, I noticed with some other stuff, he would not (as my other kids do) just eat when he was hungry; he had/has trouble recognizing hunger cues. So he would get really ragey and we'd know it was 'cause he was hungry, but he would yell (scream) at us "I'm NOT HUNGRY!!" and refuse to eat. I finally figured out, if I set snacks (protein laden ones as often as possible) in front of *all the kids*, he would munch alongside them (I began literally setting timers for this, because his metabolism is FAST and he has to eat protein often throughout the day). If we went more than 2 hours between food.....watch out. And you couldn't just offer him food/ask if he was hungry; he would say no (and believe himself; he wasn't lying, he just could not tell). So, that was another trick I learned. Eventually. 

Then, when he would rage....I tried so many things. We had a hammock and I would drag him into it with me, kicking and screaming, wrap my legs around him and swing us in the hammock. He would fight, but the weight/pressure + the swinging would serve as a "reset button." Sometimes, if I caught things quick enough, I could have him get in the hammock alone and swing him really fast & high which was even better. If that wasn't an option, we found that an indoor rebounder/small exercise trampoline was equally good but that absolutely has to be caught at the beginning when he's still compliant enough to yell "Fine!" and jump these fast, furious jumps (I would give him a number). Once he'd done the first set, his eyes would be a little less wild, and I'd give another number. Etc. Until his "I hate you for making me do this and it will never work you stupid monster person!!" look/jumps had settled into normal "kid jumping on a trampoline" jumps, I would give him one more set, more than the ones before, and have him jump. 

Another thing we'd do was that I would take him to his room, set the timer for the 10 or 15 minutes or whatever, and I would sit in the doorway singing to him. He hated it. Hated. It. Yes, I would deal with clawing and scratching and trying to bite and etc. But I would just sit and sing. Amazing Grace. You are my sunshine. Jesus Loves You. Any and every praise song I could think of. Sitting in the doorway, calmly never saying a word in response to him, but also never letting him out of the room until time was up. Each time he actually tried to breach the door/climb over me, I would reset the timer, so sometimes this lasted longer than the 10 mins or whatever, but most of the time, it only took one or two redirects. Usually. (there were also, yes, days that the 10 mins took an hour.....). I would tell him it was okay to punch, kick, scratch his pillow. I would not react, at all, when he tried kick, punch, scratching me. Just sing. Every minute, I would say how much longer (9 more minutes, 8 more minutes, etc.). I would silently pray inside while singing, and just endure. Most of the time.......this worked. 

Did it make the rage any more fun? Nope. But something about him seeing me *not care at all* that he was raging, hearing me sing his bedtime/lullaby songs *even then*, and knowing at a very set time, I would let him out (and not actually separating him from me....just from the ability to destroy anything or harm his brothers) (you have to understand, I sat in the open doorway, never ever ever on the other side of a closed door).....something about this combination worked. 

We just now (hmm, about 1 yr ago; he's 13 now, so at around age 11/12) did therapy to work on him moderating his own emotional response and I don't think he could have any younger; maybe your dd will reach that point again soon. We had charts, and even with therapy we had to coach him through it (the whole family knew how/the steps), for months. It was probably nearly a year (6 months at least) before he would self-regulate, and a few months at least before we  could just point at the steps on the chart (we kept one posted up). We also had to try different aspects of it, for ex, one of the things to calm down was "color" but that one never worked for him, so we would tweak it and come up with things that did (back to bounces on the trampoline or swings on the swingset....). For him, music is very calming, so we got him an iPod and earbuds so he could listen to music (well, at first we got him less fragile means, ha! but now he has an iPod....). I share that to just say, don't give up on the therapy/practices you learned. I know that it is hard; impossibly hard, but keep trying. Start with using those in the tiny moments, they won't work in the midst of a rage, at all, but in the little stuff. 

One other thing, and maybe this is controversial, but was a step we had to go through......while you are working on this, remind yourself that more appropriate means of expression are the goal. Sadly, what that means in practice is/might be that the next most appropriate means is to stop using physical displays of anger.....and start expressing anger verbally. Which means, for a time, you will likely bear the brunt as she yells things at you. As impossible as that is, don't let it go to your heart. She is using words instead of being physical, and that is a step in the right direction, even if those words hurt to your core. I know. I get it. It sucks. It absolutely does. And maybe I am wrong, maybe there's a reason with RAD that allowing that is a bad idea, but.....I found that letting him/encouraging him to "use his words" helped, in the long run. So we first focused on that (and this can include the grunting, screaming, etc.), just removing the physical manifestations, and then once we had a nice, long stretch of "just" verbal rages, then we started working on volume control and appropriate words to use. "I'm mad at you" vs "I hate you" and such. But that was way later, really. And *then* we started working on "try to react like a normal person..." stuff. So, again....don't give up. You can get there. 

Okay, last thing and I'll stop, since I may be all apples & oranges here.....I had to make myself find one (or two, or five, but at first, just one) thing positive about him every.single.day. Write it down. Cherish it. Even if it was "petted the dog nicely" or something. Every single day, for years, I survived because I forced myself to find something, anything, good about him that day. If nothing else I've said makes sense, please try that, at least. Even if it changes nothing about your dd and her rages....maybe it will help you. 

You have my utmost prayers; I know that it is not easy, at all, and I imagine with actual RAD probably even harder than what I dealt with. ((((((hugs))))))) 

[hippiemamato3]

7 hours ago, bethben said:

Just for definition’s sake.  A rage is different than a child not regulating their emotions.  I will see her start one and suggest calmly she go to her room for 15 minutes and draw or read until she calms down a bit so we can have a normal conversation about it after she calms down.  By the time I notice a rage is on the horizon, she has given in to it.  What follows is three hours or so of her yelling and screaming at me.  There is nothing I can do to calm her down.  If I don’t intervene and try to get her somewhere else, she will look at me like she wants to kill me.  Usually, she will yell and scream outside of her door because going into her room would mean actually obeying me which is the opposite of her desire for control.  Yesterday involved her trying to bite me and punch me.  She’s 11.  The whole house is affected by this behavior.  I have three very calm biological boys also.  I took her to therapy to help her identify what emotions are a big deal and what aren’t. It also came with suggestions of how to calm down. I tried-she didn’t.  She didn’t care to work through the program.  

Yes, I have a hardness toward my daughter.  She has stolen peace from my house and replaced it with a child who rages and tells me she wishes I never adopted her and wishes she could live by herself away from me.  Add that type of attitude her whole time she’s spent in our house (9 years) and you have a mom whose emotions are fried.  She can be sweet one moment and even a whole week but I know that sooner or later, she’ll shift.  The last shift came out of nowhere and totally unexpected.  I guess she had had enough closeness.  Ask any mom who has a child with RAD.  It’s not pretty.  I now understand my adopted friend’s mom who seemed mean and unloving.  She was probably a nice woman at one point pushed to the edge.  

Yes, it's triangulation. Yes, parenting a RAD kid takes away everything - peace, love, a general sense of well being. Our RAD son was adopted at age 10. We were told he had only ADHD. We were told he could love. Reality was very, very different. He has no conscience. He has mental illnesses on top of RAD. He is also intellectually disabled. Our life has been a living hell for 9 years and there's no end in sight. In our state there is no help until a "child" is 21. I don't think we will make it there. The destruction to our home, the stealing, the lying, the violent rages - no family should have to endure this. The only alternative is a homeless shelter. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't like the person I am when he is around. Feel free to PM me. I get it. 

[Pen]

@TheReader That’s a wonderful explanation of coping with challenging behavior!!!

And @bethben 

 finding good things to write down reminded me that another strategy can be to find self regulation methods for oneself and to let the dc possibly learn from observation— which again might not help them but could help the parent. 

On a specific, btw, I would get son a lock for his room or stuff.  Not make that something daughter pays for. 

But otoh, I would  set up a reward for improving behavior system rather than a rage resulting in a special trip or playing a game system. So, for example, have two daily book reading and game playing times, but they get lost if there’s been a rage episode prior to the special activity time. but then there’s another chance later to win another if rage free for another time period. Maybe 3 on weekend days. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, LarlaB said:

You aren’t necessarily doing anything wrong, it’s just super hard.  I would recommend therapy for you and your DH- protect and prioritize that relationship and try try try to get on the same page. 

You have my sympathy and compassion and respect for how hard you are working!

I agree with this. You are doing what you can, and you need more help and more tools. It's great you are working with a therapist. 

I have a kid who had major meltdowns (autism) and have a friend whose son has RAD and several other things. 

I have suggestions for peeling back layers and I have a thought to offer on the triangulation, but please realize that my thoughts are tangentially applicable and only shared in the hopes of giving you more places to seek help and describe what's happening to you. 

First, in behavior terms (in this case, applied behavioral analysis), your daughter is going to do the behaviors that are reinforced. I don't think she's triangulating--I think she's desperate and angry and she's seeing ways out of things because your DH is not on the same page with you, and then he's reinforcing those behaviors as being okay. I also think it probably feels exactly like she's triangulating on your end--you are really between a rock and a hard place! I am so sorry. She might be learning to triangulate or be doing bits of it--I just think she's probably got a lot more "fight or flight" panic and stuck-ness going on than you realize though.

I think there are multiple things going on with your DH and you not being on the same page. There is the "mom can't do this because she's worn thin problem" and the "dad does this, and it makes it worse, and the rotten cherry on the top is that he then multiplies it by being 'more nice' than mom." I also think that your DH is letting you be the heavy inappropriately--regardless of what approach is needed in response to the rages, you are stuck being the bad guy. That is NOT OKAY. We had all of this going on in our home, and a therapist did help us with it tremendously. 

The good news is that if you can get on the same page, you have more options both for how to deal with the behavior and in being able to try to give more grace. Grace is undeserved, and I mean it totally that way. There are times she isn't going to deserve what you choose to give her, but I think that your DH is confusing grace with removing consequences some of the time. Other times, I think there could be room (with big changes) to consider his ideas. It's all about the context, and right now, he's stepping in it uninformed and undermining you!!!

9 hours ago, bethben said:

fter the rage is done, he will go and read her a book, play a game with her, or even think of someplace special he can take her.  He feels like she needs love and love and grace will conquer this (although his patience is starting to run pretty thin also).  In the meantime, I am the mean mommy all.the.time.  I have told him that unknowingly, she is pitting him against me.  He doesn't feel that way.  I feel like she should pay for a lock for her brother's door since she is stealing his stuff, my dh feels like we should just take care of that.  Grace and love - why make her more angry at us than she already is?  Guess who checks her backpack for things she shouldn't bring to school or stuff from her brothers room?  Me.  Guess who enforces her having to stay close to the home when she's like this?  Me.  Guess who allows her to play with friends because it will help her be less angry?  DH.  Guess who lets her bring the contraband toy to school because he doesn't want a rage before school even though I specifically told her no?  DH.

I bolded this because I think this is a place where you potentially have a lot of options down the road...IF...you get on the same page and get additional tools. So, for instance, if you had tools in place that you both used to enforce some kind of consequence with her, you have different options about the lock. You could weigh the pros and cons, i.e., does she actually learn from paying for the lock, or is it going to be a giant, installed, shiny reminder of her own failure? Your son clearly needs a lock--the lock could be a gift of grace to him to protect his stuff while you have a different, targeted consequence for her, for instance. The options grow when the tools are there and both parents use them. So to get there...here is sort of how it worked here, and I hope this could give you a place to start learning even if you end up doing something different or more targeted toward trauma and RAD.

I suggest reading up a bit on ABA (not an easy thing to understand without good, clear examples). The I Love ABA blog/Facebook page is a good place to start. Maybe read about other behavioral therapies too. The reason I suggest this is to get sort of way to classify your concerns and to classify what you are seeing, and not just using adult terms or terms that are more like what you'd use to describe a disordered person's behavior (cause she's still a kid). Whether ABA ends up being a tool for you to solve these issues is one thing, but it definitely can be a way to discuss your DH's lack of support and it's role in shaping your DD's behavior, and it can give you vocabulary to non-emotionally describe what you are seeing (feel perfectly free to ADD your FEELINGS and frustrations when you take the problems to your therapist though!!!).

ABA takes a lot of the emotion out of stuff--everything is about an antecedent, behavior, and then a consequence, and you also look at the function of the behavior (for example, escape). Everything stems from that, and then you want to reinforce, extinguish, or shape behaviors. Rarely, you can provide a disincentive via negative reinforcement, but that's often counterproductive or to be saved to some seriously ground zero moments (which you have a lot of now, but that can potentially change). There are other terms that describe how the process plays out--the first time I heard the term "extinction burst" to describe what happens when a child realizes that a behavior is no longer okay, I KNEW instinctively what it meant and that I had been the one dealing with those extinction bursts while EVERYONE ELSE that faced them caved. 

Additionally, one tenet of ABA is to start with goals that are within the child's reach--you want the reinforcement to be truly rewarding and a true bridge to higher expectations, more skills, more self-awareness (if possible), and fewer negative behaviors. 

Anyway, I think you are seeing real stuff, but the only way to be able to be objective about it and not be in emergency mode is to get more tools and have someone get your DH on board--maybe your therapist can help you do that in person over time.

ETA: Re: the bolded...right now, you are in a crisis, and I am not saying that you are not objective about what's happening, but that you have few options for implementing objective strategies--your self-preservation is a very real need and one that is limiting your options. Getting on the same page with your DH and getting more tools can help with that. I think you are describing things extraordinarily objectively for being stuck in the middle of it.

Edited December 11, 2018 by kbutton

[kbutton]

Here is the blog I referenced: https://www.iloveaba.com/

Quote

ABA Therapy incorporates behavioral techniques such as reinforcement, prompting, consistent consequences, and extinction. Strengths are generalized and expanded upon, and deficits are replaced with skills in order to help the individual be more successful in their environment. Behavior reduction and skill acquisition are closely connected when it comes to ABA Therapy; typically being simultaneously targeted.

 ABA Therapy has decades of rigorous research to support its efficacy, and people all over the world use intensive ABA principles in order to teach new behaviors to children, adolescents, and adults.

Being a behavioral therapeutic method, ABA Therapy focuses on what is observable andmeasurable. Precise and frequent data collection drives the course of treatment.
 ABA Therapy can take place in the home setting, school setting, community setting(s), or at a center/clinic. ABA Therapy is usually provided by ABA therapists, and the therapists should be supervised by a Consultant (usually a Board Certified Behavior Analyst).

ABA Therapy focuses on understanding behavior by its function, combined with examining the environment in order to develop a comprehensive strategy for behavior reduction.

Definition of function of behavior from this part of the site: https://www.iloveaba.com/2012/02/everyday-fba.html

Quote

There are 4 main functions for any behavior: Gain attention or a Tangible item, Automatic reinforcement (sensory), Avoid or escape a demand or situation, and To communicate wants/needs. It isn't unusual for a behavior to serve multiple functions, although there is typically a main function (primary) and a lesser function (secondary).

 

[Pronghorn]

I'll give you what I have done, but these strategies were for a younger child. Modify or ignore as needed.

1) Somehow your husband needs to learn about RAD. Giving a RAD child more control when the child is struggling is usually a very bad idea. Could your husband get some coaching from the counselor?

2) After a child has had a rage and is calm again (e.g. later in the day or the next day), you can talk about the feelings of all involved. I used little faces I drew to represent emotions and asked my child what her feelings were before, during, and after the meltdown. Then I asked her to do the same with everyone else present, e.g. me, a friend, a teacher. Basically we talked through each episode and the associated emotions in detail.

3) I taught my child to make reparations to people inconvenienced by her fits. These people included me, friends, and teachers. She could set the table, make a card, draw a picture, help with cleaning. She could even choose an apology, although I never pushed the forced apologies that are common in our culture. (I knew I could not force her to make an apology, so I figure it would be foolhardy to try.) I also let her experience the consequences of her behavior. E.g. "I'd really like to read to you, honey, but I am really worn out from all the emotion this afternoon, so I think I need to rest." Or, "I don't think you can go on a playdate today. You're having too much trouble with your feelings."

4) I had a screaming chair for my child. I put it in the middle of the floor where there was nothing she could damage or throw. She sat there to work on her emotions, which meant she could say absolutely anything she wanted, scream, tell me she hated me and wished I never adopted her. The only requirement was that she remain in the chair. I would stay within eyesight, sweeping the floor etc. and projecting calm and cheerfulness. Once in a while, I'd say, "Good work letting those emotions out; keep it up." Once she grew quiet, I would set the timer for two minutes and she had to sit still until it rang. Otherwise, she could continue to work on her emotions. The hard thing with this one is making the child remain on the chair. But you could do this with staying in their room perhaps like the other person who said she sat in the doorway during rages.

5) You can adapt Stanley Greenspan's idea of Floortime to your child's needs. (Google or find one of his books.) At a scheduled time each day, you play with your child and she gets to take control and lead the playing. You follow. It helps to provide something the child likes for this playtime, like certain special toys that are not used other times.

6) When my child was having a bad spell in general, I would tell her she was either on probation or in boot camp. During these times, she had to ask me permission for literally everything. She was not allowed to make her own decisions at all. I might do this for a day or two, and it would function as a kind of reset. These kids need to experience being under their parents' control and finding out that life does not cave in (as it did when they were with their birthparents).

7) I know this is extremely hard, but work on being non-reactive. Your child probably feels all jumbled up inside, so she is trying to make her world reflect how she feels. Show her that even if she is a mess, that you will not allow her to take you down with her. That is giving her what she wants and not what she needs. Again, I know this is very very hard, especially after all the years of being worn down.

8) Maybe get some respite care. I never did this, but it sounds like it might help you cope. You are under too much pressure!

I hope this helps. I never had to deal with this in an older child, but these are things that worked for a younger kid.

 

 

 

 

 

[Janeway]

This is not the definition of triangulating. Your husband is undermining you. This is on him. Triangulating would be more like if she were telling him things to get him angry at you and you things to get you angry at him. Then, as a result, she becomes the loved one because you and him are angry at each other. My brother does this all the time. 

[Pronghorn]

One other thing -- I would not try to make my child be alone during a rage. Whenever I walked out of the room when my child was falling to pieces, my child went into a total panic. And this reaction lasted into at least the lower teen years, even when my child was doing generally very well. It was very hard to stay present during rages, but I think the natural reaction of leaving the child alone can be a trauma trigger. The child needs to know that her negative feelings will not drive you away.

[aaplank]

I'm so sorry. I get it too. After our 10 yr. old foster kid with RAD left our home, I look back at the situation and wished that I had emotionally disengaged a lot sooner. IMO, it's the only way to survive. Take care of physical needs and keep your heart completely guarded. 

I will never be the same person I was before this experience. I am broken, and the ripple effects in my family are far-reaching. If your husband cannot grasp what is at stake, like my husband couldn't, don't waste any emotional energy trying to be a team. Let him take over most of the interactions with your daughter. Give yourself time and space to get some rest and regroup. 

Prayers and hugs sent your way. 

[nixpix5]

*raising hand* lived through RAD here and yes, I would call that triangulation and yes, RAD kiddos do it without even being aware that is what they are doing. You are in a tough situation because not only do you feel like you need to hold the behaviors accountable (you do) but you may be feeling even more resentful to the behaviors because of a frustration with how your husband is handling it. Do you work closely with a therapist who is trained in RAD? Most therapists do not understand it and equate and treat the behaviors like they would a neurotypical child with similar developmental behaviors. This is not the same and it can and will exacerbate the problems. You must be on the same page for sure. RAD can feel like an endless black hole that sucks your emotions dry. It was the hardest thing I have ever lived through. There is light at the tunnels end and it can turn out positive. It did for us but I become exhausted when I think of those years. 

[Melissa in Australia]

my twins have been diagnosed with RAD amongst a huge list of other things (intellectual disabilities, ADD, anxiety, PTS, possible Autism, trauma etc) - but the peadiatrician and now I think that they really have FASD. 

They both really really struggle with any self regulation. once they loose control they cannot bring themselves back to a calm place. I do a HUGE amount of external regulation ( to the outside it must look like micromanaging and controlling). One twin can be regulated by holding my hand. so If I am out shopping I have to be holding his hand at all times otherwise he starts getting sillier and sillier until he is completely out of control. It must look ridiculous seeing me pushing a trolley with one hand while holding a nearly 8 year old's hand. 

they are all consuming of my time. I cannot even talk to someone for more than a few minutes because they know my attention is off them and quickly become disregulated.

It is challenging to keep a united front with DH and myself. We try but it is really hard.

they seem to go from one challenging behavior to the next. At the moment we are really struggling with harming and some killing of animals.  we are working very very closely with a psychologist who is trained in play therapy. ( we are really struggling with this development because of our experience with an older sibling who did similar but worse behavior to animals)

 one thing that I tell myself over and over is that FASD is actual physical damage to the brain. it is not their being bad. it is an unseen physical disability.

[Katy]

I doubt it's deliberate (most manipulative behaviors are subconscious), but yes, it's triangulation. That doesn't mean that your husband isn't right that your basic attitude towards her should be grace, but 1) grace isn't the same thing as permissiveness, and 2) you're in a war, it's long term, and while it feels like your war is against DD, it's actually about what kind of person YOU are going to be in the worst possible circumstances.  War makes people do awful things, it makes people embrace the darkest possible parts of ourselves. You've been fighting this war longer and more consistently than your DH, so you're seeing the darker parts of yourself more.  That is normal in these circumstances. Perhaps your DH is more emotionally stable than you are by personality, or perhaps it's simply lack of exposure to the worst parts of DD (I strongly suspect it's the latter). Either way, right now he is better equipped than you are to treat her with kindness. So let him.  Don't get angry when he treats her with kindness.  Ideally you would be able to do the same thing.  DO draw the line at anything that is abusive to the rest of the house.  So yes, DS gets a lock on his door.  He deserves a safe, secure, and happy place to grow up JUST AS MUCH AS HIS SISTER.

Whether it's RAD or FASD I doubt it will matter to her if she has to pay for a lock for the brothers door or not, these kids can't attach to belongings any more than they can people.  So just pay for it, and when DH comes home he can be the primary parent to DD.  You take DS out of the house and go do something fun.  Try to enjoy life when taking a break from her.

And check around to see if there is a support group for adoptive parents of high-trauma kids, or RAD kids or whatever.  And if there isn't one, ask your therapist to start one.