Rural development

[Laura Corin]

People go out of town for Outlet Malls here, and I seem to remember that in California too.

[Rosie_0801]

Out and about where?

 

I dunno. Wherever you go I guess.

 

I think about the number of times I drive past a tourism sign and think I really ought to stop there one day and I mostly don't.

[Rosie_0801]

Also, I see a few businesses popping up around home/garden maintenance. If you invest in good tools and are willing to come to the customer.

 

Yes, there are quite a few of them in this old people town here.

[Rosie_0801]

Just as an idea: The item that sold the most at our last auction was a class on canning. So if you like canning, run a destination canning class with seasonal produce. People don't want canned goods: they want the experience. Same with quilting material vs experience. Etc.

 

Friends of friends have been doing things like that. It's crazy what people can charge for a kombucha workshop.  :eek:

 

(I'm not looking for ideas for me to do personally. I'm just interested in the topic, in part because my brother will be trying again at the next federal election, and our electorate is mostly rural.)

 

There's an organisation that helps women start businesses moving into our region atm. Some of our old homeschooling buddies are recipients and it's pretty exciting to hear about their ventures. I'm inclined to think this is an important component in healthy rural communities.

[Twolittleboys]

What sort of small businesses are worth developing in small towns, that will bring people in?

 

My little town does ok because we are just off the freeway between the capital and the state border, so if you want non-servo food, it's a good place to stop. Senior citizen groups on day trips stop here too. They keep the cafes open. It's also an old people town, and they all eat at the bakery for something to do.

 

I don't shop much so it's hard for me to think about.

 

My SIL used to have a maternity clothes shop, and she said people came from two hours away. What other businesses could have that sort of effect?

Tourism/entertainment would be one option. For tourism it is of course helpful if the town has the right physical attributes (beach, sunshine, nature etc.) or lots of entertainment.For entertainment it would though depend on how many people live in a reasonable distance. I am thinking movie theaters, bars, nice restaurants, amusement parks, water parks, theaters, etc. Some of these obviously require a lot of money up-front, others less.

 

Maybe the "old people" aspect could be expanded by offering additional services (activities etc.) that would attract more older people to move there. I presume the cost of living is lower than in the capital so retirees might be willing to down-size if the area is attractive enough (just the bakery might not be enough though).

 

Artists might be another target group if the area is pretty. Fairly close to the capital and (hopefully) cheaper living costs might be attractive. This could include galleries, some sort of school/workshops etc.

 

A lot of it depends on the specific area though. What is great about your town? Why do you want to live there (or why would you)?

[Twolittleboys]

Also, I can basically work anywhere as long as there is decent internet so what would I look for if I were relocating? I assume most people in my position would have somewhat similar desires.

 

I would look for low cost of living, safety (low crime etc.), internet/phone service, good schools, decent to good medical care (doctors/hospitals), natural beauty/outdoor activities, nice weather, good transportation links, a decent range of activities close by (library, community center etc.) and/or in decent distance (e.g. museums, concerts), sense of community, churches, stores.

 

The above is in no particular order as personal preferences vary. And obviously you won't find a place that offers everything (because then at least the cost of living would go up). Still, I think any place that offers one or two of these and fulfills a minimum of the others has a good chance to attract people.

[Rosie_0801]

A lot of it depends on the specific area though. What is great about your town? Why do you want to live there (or why would you)?

I get cheap rent. :D

 

I'm not looking to problem solve for my town specifically. These are widespread problems, and I figured someone would have something interesting to say. I'm more interested in employment than attracting new residents. There aren't enough jobs for the people in small towns as it is. One exception being refugees. Moving refugees in tends to stimulate the local economy either through business or government grants, or both.

[Twolittleboys]

I get cheap rent. :D

 

I'm not looking to problem solve for my town specifically. These are widespread problems, and I figured someone would have something interesting to say. I'm more interested in employment than attracting new residents. There aren't enough jobs for the people in small towns as it is. One exception being refugees. Moving refugees in tends to stimulate the local economy either through business or government grants, or both.

Well, I think different towns might have to use different strategies unless they are very similar as to location etc.. And even then you need to diversify - not every town can be a tourism hotspot or a mecca for artists. I actually think this is one problem that has to be tackled on a town or regional level.

 

I am not so sure about the employment vs. new residents. If there is not enough employment in a small town that means there is either not enough demand for services or noone is aware of them. So I guess the first step would be to see if there is something people would really like to have and would support (maybe by doing a survey) but even then there is the question of critical mass. It needs a certain minimum number of people to support businesses. So attracting more people might help the employment situation, especially if the new-comers have a higher disposable income or are more willing to spend on certain aspects. Very small communities just often aren't viable unless they are close to larger cities and/or offer something special (e.g. nature).

[Rosie_0801]

Well, I think different towns might have to use different strategies unless they are very similar as to location etc.. And even then you need to diversify - not every town can be a tourism hotspot or a mecca for artists. I actually think this is one problem that has to be tackled on a town or regional level.

 

I am not so sure about the employment vs. new residents. If there is not enough employment in a small town that means there is either not enough demand for services or noone is aware of them. So I guess the first step would be to see if there is something people would really like to have and would support (maybe by doing a survey) but even then there is the question of critical mass. It needs a certain minimum number of people to support businesses. So attracting more people might help the employment situation, especially if the new-comers have a higher disposable income or are more willing to spend on certain aspects. Very small communities just often aren't viable unless they are close to larger cities and/or offer something special (e.g. nature).

 

Surveys seem not to help. People want services in case they want to use them. There was a huge uproar in my town last year because a service people didn't use closed down. :lol: They didn't use it. But they *might* have wanted to!

 

 

And yes, I quite agree that different towns would need to use different strategies for growth. Our governments say "jobs and growth" a lot, but they don't seem to do a lot about it. People vote for them because they say "jobs and growth," then write lots of negative letters to the editor when someone wants to open a business. 

 

I'm still interested in what solutions other people/governments in other places have found because I am a stickybeak.

[Twolittleboys]

And yes, I quite agree that different towns would need to use different strategies for growth. Our governments say "jobs and growth" a lot, but they don't seem to do a lot about it. People vote for them because they say "jobs and growth," then write lots of negative letters to the editor when someone wants to open a business.

I am surprised to hear that. Do people really complain about stores, restaurants etc. opening?

 

I live in Europe so we don't quite have that problem. I mean there are regions that are economically disadvantaged but there isn't really anything that is "isolated". But if we are talking about Australia I do think towns need to get up to a critical mass in order to support various services which will provide jobs and attract more people.

 

What I mean is this: If you have a small town with one restaurant, two grocery stores, and not much else and it is fairly far from the next bigger town, it will not offer a lot of jobs (unless there is substantial manufacturing etc.). There just aren't enough people to support a bowling alley, movie theater, toy store, etc. So not only are there no jobs but also not a lot of recreational opportunities. So obviously most younger people who can will move somewhere else. The situation is a bit different for small towns that are close enough to bigger cities.

 

So yes, I think the best way to stimulate remote small towns is by increasing their size until they are viable. As towns/regions can't generally influence immigration policies they probably need to attract people from other areas / towns to relocate. It seems to me you can either do this by offering jobs or by attracting people who don't need jobs (tourists, retirees) or bring their jobs with them (e.g. artists, people working via internet).

[Rosie_0801]

I am surprised to hear that. Do people really complain about stores, restaurants etc. opening?

 

Small town politics. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Negative gearing is a problem in some regional towns, keeping shops on main streets empty. I'm waiting to hear what kind of policy changes can be made by the local councils to combat this.

[Carrie12345]

 

 

I'm still interested in what solutions other people/governments in other places have found because I am a stickybeak.

 

We haven't fully found one.

 

I wrote about my area in the other development thread. I don't really live in a "town". We have a township that's about 40 square miles, and I would count the entire county as "where I live", because I need the wider county area to conduct the general business I need to do to go about my everyday life.  

 

The school district has been a major employer, though it's not in my township.  The giant letting go of teachers did not go over well when we closed schools, but what are you supposed to do when you don't have as many students to teach?  There is a pharmaceutical company in our county, which is also a main employer.  Otherwise, it's the usual retail and hospitality/tourism, and some family farms.  The internets say the median commute in our township is about 46 minutes.  We're known for "supercommuting", with many people working in the cities up to 2 hours away.  

 

Our real estate taxes are higher than one would expect for a rural area. Public transportation is very lacking, but I can't imagine what the solution would be.  The vast majority of people are used to driving (and need to) on their own schedules.  The people who need public transportation desperately need it, but there aren't enough of them to support more than the bare bones we have now.  There's a bus stop about 2.5 miles from my house that runs into larger retail areas every 180 minutes. I don't really understand how one grocery shops that way.

 

I guess our main "solution" is simply not to think of our "town" as a self-sustaining community.  I love where I live, but I have to be able and willing to drive a lot in order to access the things I need and want.  Including picking up the mail!  It does not work for everyone, and my only fear about staying here until I die is the probability of having to quit driving before that day comes.

[Twolittleboys]

Well, I think local councils have to have some sort of vision in which direction they want to head. I don't think there is a cut and dried policy that will help (e.g. lower taxes). I mean low taxes / cost are great, but if there are no jobs and/or other attractions they won't help.

 

In the past, towns usually evolved around natural resources of some kind and then the areas between towns got settled due to the proximity. Lacking this, the impetus must come from something else.

 

Are there some towns/regions that are more successful than others? If so, what sets them apart?

[Rosie_0801]

Are there some towns/regions that are more successful than others? If so, what sets them apart?

 

Big business and government departments, usually. The only town in our region that doesn't have empty shops in the main street is the town where the hundred grand a year jobs dwell.

[Pam in CT]

The differences in population density really are wild in the US.  In my northeastern state, the town I live in is considered "small" -- and it feels small; we have old tumbling-down stone walls defining the property lines, two-acre zoning so every house has loads of space, people raise chickens and goats, the budget is thrashed out in open-to-the-public town meetings where we vote by hand-raising, various civic organizations raise money with pancake breakfasts, there isn't enough population to support a medical center or bowling alley or toy store etc.  

 

But we have 17,000 residents.  In other parts of the country the population of entire counties is well less than that.

 

 

With such variances in density, uneven infrastructure is a constraint.  It took decades and massive (and at the time controversial) federal regulation to get power and basic telephone access out to every area; thus far the cell and broadband sectors have evolved much more freely and thus do not choose to build out networks in sparsely populated areas.  Medical services in sparsely populated areas are uneven; the quality of public education is uneven.  Investors choosing where to locate a new facility have to take all that into consideration.

 

We also don't really have retail-oriented public transport in the US -- the long-haul air or rail routes between cities exist, but spur links to smaller towns often either don't exist at all or are limited to a once-a-day bus; and the final link to the actual destination often doesn't exist at all.  In my region, this is an absolute constraint on employment -- many people in CT's smaller cities don't have cars, and literally cannot get to employment in the surrounding towns.

 

Even in the Good Old Days, there were always boom-and-bust cycles, when towns briefly surged around a natural resource and its attendant employment, and thereafter died when the resource was depleted or the railroad was built elsewhere etc.  The "ghost town" dynamic isn't new.

 

I think we may also have an cultural aversion to public "planning", which limits our ability to grapple with such problems and enact long term solutions requiring consensus about zoning/ public investment/ picking "winners and losers."  

[Rosie_0801]

The differences in population density really are wild in the US.  In my northeastern state, the town I live in is considered "small" -- and it feels small; we have old tumbling-down stone walls defining the property lines, two-acre zoning so every house has loads of space, people raise chickens and goats, the budget is thrashed out in open-to-the-public town meetings where we vote by hand-raising, various civic organizations raise money with pancake breakfasts, there isn't enough population to support a medical center or bowling alley or toy store etc.  

 

But we have 17,000 residents.  In other parts of the country the population of entire counties is well less than that.

 

I think we may also have an cultural aversion to public "planning", which limits our ability to grapple with such problems and enact long term solutions requiring consensus about zoning/ public investment/ picking "winners and losers."  

 

A town of 17,000 can't sustain a medical centre? Medical centres must be something different to what I think they are.  :confused1:

 

Tell me more about this cultural aversion to public planning?

[Guest]

To be fair, it can take longer to commute from a NY suburb to a NY workplace than it takes to commute from a remote town to the nearest city. :p

So true.

 

 

About half of my neighbors, in our rural area, commute in to NYC. We are 45 minutes by car away from nearest mass transit pickup point, but with the COL difference and the better public schools,.we had a huge influx of commuters after 9/11. Their issues are always that they don't have subsidized transportation -- can't understand that taxes collected here support mass transit to and in NYC. Our issue is that prices are now set for NYC union wages and pensions, and the school district is burdened with well above average special needs. Amazon is the only place with reasonable prices on goods. The locals gave themselves a senior exemption on taxes of fifty percent. Its resulted in middle class departing. The major local nongovernment employers have departed...cost of doing business is too much. We are facing the choice of dh travel.extensively or relocate as we are too far from retirement to bridge until we can get a tax exemption. Most our age who stay have a vets exemption or an ag exemption if they don't have a union job paying city wages.

 

 

Rural development is discussed heavily. Because of lack of water, there can be no development of certain types of industry or even large buildings as fire codes can't be met. The easy water supplies were all secured by NYC long ago. Towns and cities cant access and must drill. The population isn't dense enough to support that cost...incoming wealth though does amd we have had two large religious groups relocate from NYC and build their own communities. They each have a small fleet of busses for their people to use.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Rosie_0801]

Rural development is discussed heavily. Because of lack of water, there can be no development of certain types of industry or even large buildings as fire codes can't be met. The easy water supplies were all secured by NYC long ago. Towns and cities cant access and must drill. The population isn't dense enough to support that cost...incoming wealth though does amd we have had two large religious groups relocate from NYC and build their own communities.

 

What kind of impact does that have? Or do they keep themselves to themselves?

[elegantlion]

Yeah? That sort of thing is on the decline now. Even quilters buy online.

 

Although, there is one small town not too far from me that regenerated itself with several quilting stores and now it receives national coverage as a quilting destination. I don't know all the back store, but this did not happen overnight. 

 

I grew up in the suburbs of a large city, moved to a smaller regional city (75k) and lived in a small town (10k) for several years. There were two industries in the small town, the prison and the hospital. The hospital drew from the other much smaller towns in the area as well as ours. The prison is state run. 

 

In my current town (75k) there are a few big industries (medical, college, vet medicine) and an economy that is still recovering. We have a historical downtown that is in the process of being revitalized, if the empty buildings will quit burning down (*sigh*). We are not really considered rural, but we are surrounded by country and farm land. 

 

In the small town (10k) most people commute for work, either to my town or the big city. Most people that stay there do so because they were born there, moved there because of the low housing costs, or are just passing through. Businesses have a hard time staying in business unless they are a chain with outside corporate support. The few locally owned businesses either have prices so high (local grocery) or their businesses are purposely small and stay that way. 

 

I'll write more later on the cultural differences I've seen. It can be night and day in some ways, in some ways not. 

[Rosie_0801]

Although, there is one small town not too far from me that regenerated itself with several quilting stores and now it receives national coverage as a quilting destination. I don't know all the back store, but this did not happen overnight. 

 

There's a town in our state that did something similar. It turned itself into a book town. I'm not sure how such things evolve, but I'd like to!

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read all the replies, yet. 
 

I think rural communities are really important.

 

As far as univercity towns, yes, they are usually very vibrant small communities.  But realistically, they are only a small part of the picture, and they don't always serve the function the resource based towns do.

 

I think the main issue is really around farming and food security.  If we are going to have regional food security, and sustainable farming, the way we do it has to change - the giant industrial farm approach is not going to work.  Having areas of the country where even in the rural areas, people can't buy local products, because all they grow is corn, is crazy.  What we are going to need is smaller farms, and more labour.  So, more people living in the country, farming.

 

And, those people will need their rural towns and villages to get their mail, buy groceries, send their kids to school.  It doesn't make sense for those people to drive into the big centers all of the time - it isn't efficient - and it also isn't good for their quality of life.  Kids in rural areas here typically spend more than an hour on the school bus each way - people do not want that for their kids.

 

There is a bit of bs talked about cities being more environmentally friendly.  Sure, a certain amount of density in a city is efficient, people use public transport, and so on. (Though, when you include the inevitable suburbs, that efficiency goes down.)

 

But cities require agricultural lands to feed them - it is neither efficient nor secure when the food for a North American city is shipped across the continent, or from a different continent.  At a certain size, cities also become less efficient - people need to travel long distances within the city to work or shop or school.  When cities are larger, their agricultural base is farther away.  And ideally, cities are placed on land that is marginal for other purposes - when they grow out of bounds, they begin to swallow up land better for other things, farms, wetlands, and so on - and they also begin to create huge concentrations of waste.

 

A more sustainable model is likely some wild areas, what would be by today's standards well populated rural areas served by villages and small towns, with smaller cities as regional centers, and the rare large city.  That is not at all like what we see happening in many places, with these mega-cities that eat up all the economic activity for whole regions and even whole countries (looking at you, London...)

[Pam in CT]

A town of 17,000 can't sustain a medical centre? Medical centres must be something different to what I think they are.  :confused1:

 

Tell me more about this cultural aversion to public planning?

 

Well, I don't know sufficiently detailed information about medical consortia financials to really support "can't."  "Doesn't" support a medical center would perhaps be a better way to describe it.  Whether or not a consortia "could" stay in business here, it is more profitable for a medical center to locate in more concentrated areas -- and similarly all sorts of other retail and service-oriented businesses.  Left to the market, many private businesses will choose a location based on how many customers are there, right?  In the US, many medical providers are structured as private businesses.  That model works less well in sparsely populated areas, just as for any other type of business.  

 

I drive ~20 minutes in one direction to my kids' pediatric consortia (which has affiliated lab facilities for bloodwork.      EKG, MRI, radiology etc) and ~20 minutes in a different direction to my and my husband's general practitioner (which has an opthamologist, cardiologist, urologist and several NPs in the practice).  The nearest full-service hospital is ~35 minutes away.

 

 

 

Re cultural aversion to public planning -- I guess there are a couple ways to look at it.  One rooted in our national origin myth of fierce independence, whose other facet is a distrust of government generally.  Another is our faith that unfettered markets will deliver the best solutions.  In places with very sparse populations, or in sectors like broadband infrastructure, (and of course in all sorts of other areas of "market failure" like pollution or self-selection in insurance and blah blah blah) that depends on what you think "best" means.  Free markets do, inevitably, leave some folks behind.  That's how they work, right?

[Guest]

What kind of impact does that have? Or do they keep themselves to themselves?

The only impact locally is on school tax as the sn population increased while taxes collected decreased. The library circulation increased slightly. Everything else is done by the religious community for its community...busses for transportation, fire dept, volunteer ambulance,.sewer district, etc etc. No effect on commerce..like the commuters, they don't shop locally. Impact on state is heavier road use.

One community built a park for the neighbors.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Twolittleboys]

Maybe just for comparison: I live in a small town that also is a suburb to a bigger city. I think a fair number of people here work in the bigger city - it is about 30 minutes by car or commuter train. The larger city of course also offers various entertainment/service options (hospitals, theater, restaurants etc.).

 

However, our town still has quite a town character. There is a town center with various shops (stationery, clothing, toys etc.) as well as 7 or so grocery stores. We have ab elementary school and two different high schools as well as indoor and outdoor pool and a small hospital. There are probably 20+ restaurants/pubs etc. here. You can pretty much buy anything you want here in town though there is less choice and the price may be higher than online/in a bigger city. Still, most stores are quite busy (at least it seems so) as it is more convenient and many people like to support local businesses. I would say most people in town are quite well off (not rich but not worried about money either). There is quite a bit of new construction every couple of years which brings in new families who want the more rural life and/or lower cost than in the city.

 

There are a lot of small villages around here. These mostly are growing as far as inhabitants are concerned, but stores etc. are dying out there as people drive to bigger towns or order online. I would say maybe 50% of people who have grown up here stay in the area.

 

However, I think there is so much less population in Australia (and much of the US) that the situation just is different.

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe just for comparison: I live in a small town that also is a suburb to a bigger city. I think a fair number of people here work in the bigger city - it is about 30 minutes by car or commuter train. The larger city of course also offers various entertainment/service options (hospitals, theater, restaurants etc.).

 

However, our town still has quite a town character. There is a town center with various shops (stationery, clothing, toys etc.) as well as 7 or so grocery stores. We have ab elementary school and two different high schools as well as indoor and outdoor pool and a small hospital. There are probably 20+ restaurants/pubs etc. here. You can pretty much buy anything you want here in town though there is less choice and the price may be higher than online/in a bigger city. Still, most stores are quite busy (at least it seems so) as it is more convenient and many people like to support local businesses. I would say most people in town are quite well off (not rich but not worried about money either). There is quite a bit of new construction every couple of years which brings in new families who want the more rural life and/or lower cost than in the city.

 

There are a lot of small villages around here. These mostly are growing as far as inhabitants are concerned, but stores etc. are dying out there as people drive to bigger towns or order online. I would say maybe 50% of people who have grown up here stay in the area.

 

However, I think there is so much less population in Australia (and much of the US) that the situation just is different.

 

Or maybe you just have far bigger cities to compare to, because what you've described is not what I'd call a small town. It sounds like a city to me! :lol: 

[SKL]

Small town politics. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Negative gearing is a problem in some regional towns, keeping shops on main streets empty. I'm waiting to hear what kind of policy changes can be made by the local councils to combat this.

 

In our small town, the arrival of a Rite Aid [chain drugstore] put the cute old vintage drugstore (with a "soda fountain" [ice cream/soda counter]) out of business.  Rite Aid also charged higher prices and was crabby to the customers.  It puts a bad taste in your mouth.  :/  We were more than happy and didn't need or want a Rite Aid.

 

There are some things I think they would like to see there.  Maybe a small urgent-care, a public pool.  Things that don't cannibalize the established businesses.

[Rosie_0801]

In our small town, the arrival of a Rite Aid [chain drugstore] put the cute old vintage drugstore (with a "soda fountain" [ice cream/soda counter]) out of business.  Rite Aid also charged higher prices and was crabby to the customers.  It puts a bad taste in your mouth.  :/  We were more than happy and didn't need or want a Rite Aid.

 

There are some things I think they would like to see there.  Maybe a small urgent-care, a public pool.  Things that don't cannibalize the established businesses.

 

Well, if locals didn't want the Rite Aid, why did they shop there?  :confused1:

[Guest]

Well, if locals didn't want the Rite Aid, why did they shop there? :confused1:

 

Same thing happened here. People switched bc the Rite Aid has a drive thru. Many of them have knee pain or reduced mobility and just don't want to get out and go in. The independent down sized, then offered delivery.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Farrar]

One thing that seems to hold back some American small towns and fading cities is a cultural identity tied to the industry that has left - such as the auto industry or the coal industry. There is sometimes a sense that if they can't bring back "their" industry, that nothing will ever work again. And thus there's a strong resistance to retraining or even encouraging the next generation to look ahead to the next industry. So the next generation either leaves or stagnates, in part because of jobs, but also in part because of attitudes.

 

I always think that crafts and arts and antiques are a really limited way to bring in revenue except in the most successful places. I know that as the price of fuel rises, some manufacturing may come back. And that clean energy jobs like wind and solar farms are a growing thing. But I can't pretend to know the answers for sure.

 

ETA: I was thinking about how this was an issue in southern towns when the textile factories left. My grandparents both worked in one much of their lives and lost their jobs when it left. But it seems to have mostly left as an issue - I don't hear people talk about that so much anymore. I wonder if it's the time or if things like coal and auto plants will be harder to move on from culturally because people were better paid (the textile mills were jobs but not entries to the middle class).

Edited July 31, 2017 by Farrar

[regentrude]

Ok, for those who live in rural towns, what do you travel out of town for?

 

My son travels to his judo training to the city, 100 miles one way, twice a week.

We go to the city for the opera and to get to train station/airport. Any of these trips is coupled with some shopping, but we don't drive to the city just to shop.

 

We travel out of town a lot, to other rural areas, for hiking and rock climbing. The business we patronize is the rock climbing ranch; we also camp there. Occasionally we will eat at some restaurant during those trips. 

 

My friends who live even more rural and consider out small town of 20k the "large" town come into town for grocery shopping, homeschool group, events, doctor's appointments.

Edited July 31, 2017 by regentrude

[Twolittleboys]

Or maybe you just have far bigger cities to compare to, because what you've described is not what I'd call a small town. It sounds like a city to me! :lol:

Well, there are around 10,000 inhabitants in the town itself and another 5,000 in the surrounding communities (these are small villages/areas with between 50 and about 500 people each). So I guess not exactly "small" but definitely not a city either. However, there is really not much space between the town, the surrounding villages and the next towns after that.

[Farrar]

In our small town, the arrival of a Rite Aid [chain drugstore] put the cute old vintage drugstore (with a "soda fountain" [ice cream/soda counter]) out of business.  Rite Aid also charged higher prices and was crabby to the customers.  It puts a bad taste in your mouth.  :/  We were more than happy and didn't need or want a Rite Aid.

 

There are some things I think they would like to see there.  Maybe a small urgent-care, a public pool.  Things that don't cannibalize the established businesses.

 

Wal-Mart had a huge hand in doing this in the 80's and 90's to uncountable small towns. And sometimes it was devastating because the Wal-Mart would move in, undercut prices, the local department and drug and groceries would shut down. And then, in the worst cases, as the town floundered, the Wal-Mart would leave a few years later.

 

Wal-Mart killed the retail in my grandparents' small town. It was a fascinating process to watch as these long time downtown businesses shut their doors slowly. Because of various reasons (food tourism, en route to Florida interstate tourism, train industry, agricultural industry), the town has bounced back retail wise and there are a lot more shops - both cute local places and... wonder of all wonders... they have a Home Depot now. There's still no major competitor to the Wal-Mart grocery though - only a small store.

[regentrude]

A town of 17,000 can't sustain a medical centre? Medical centres must be something different to what I think they are. 

 

Our town of 20,000 has a hospital, but the reason it is sustainable is that our town is the largest town in the area (next largest cities are 1.5-2 hours driving to the North, West,and East, and several hours drive to the South). It serves the population of 200,000 in the entire region. 

 

20,000 people alone cannot sustain a medical center that offers specialist care. They can sustain f amily practice and pediatrician.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Why are the towns so far apart? The area is still farmland? Or wasteland no one could live on?

 

Here, an hour and a half commute is fairly normal, but 100 miles is more than that.

 

 

The US doesn't seem to have much public transport either. We have a reasonable regional train network. Not perfect, by any stretch, but it provides options.

Oftentimes, especially in the Midwest, most towns are farming towns, thus the large distance between towns. But that is not always the case. And in the US, there is hardly any "wasteland." 

 

Many states on the east coast of the U.S. are relatively small in regards to land mass. The further west you go, the bigger the states get. 

Where I live, in Phoenix, Arizona, the average rush-hour commute to work is 45 minutes to an hour and that might only be for a 13 mi trip! But in the Greater Phoenix Area (Phoenix, plus the surrounding 5 or so towns) there are 4 million people so "rush hour" can make the various highways a parking lot! 

 

As for public transportation, it's not always feasible everywhere, especially in the more rural areas.

 

I'm not sure it makes sense to compare the U.S. to Australia in these things, except maybe in land mass. The US is 3.797 square miles and Australia is 2.97 square miles, so even in that there is a quite a bit more land mass in the US. 

[regentrude]

And in the US, there is hardly any "wasteland." 

 

Driving through Arizona, Utah, Nevada, or New Mexico, we pass through vast stretches of what cannot be described by any other term. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Oftentimes, especially in the Midwest, most towns are farming towns, thus the large distance between towns. But that is not always the case. And in the US, there is hardly any "wasteland." 

 

Another thing in the US you had to live on your land to homestead--it was a condition of ownership.  So people would stake a quarter section, and build a house there, and not go into town very often at all.  Whereas there are other European communities where everyone lives in a little town or village and walks or rides out to their fields every day to work on them.  Different model, more distributed population than that breeds a certain town vs. country feel, and militates against building community in the traditional sense of the term.

[Ausmumof3]

Interesting Qs. We've been on a road trip. It's going to be a really tough year for a lot of rural Aus towns due to pretty bad drought.

 

Some of the stuff that some of the successful towns seem to do is stuff like run a community dining out night once a week/month, regular events like golf days etc. however this seems to work best in the better cropping areas where there's a bit more wealth. I guess it's hard to get much find when you are struggling. Definitely stuff that builds community is pretty critical for mental health.

 

Another issue is schooling. A lot of ag towns, the kids go away to boarding school for high school and too often they don't come back.

 

The destination town idea is good but requires someone with ongoing motivation/ expertise. Makes me think of the novel "readers of broken wheel recommend".

 

Then there's the road side stop towns which are just a good service station and a set of public toilets on a freight or tourist route.

 

I guess another thing is being an event town - whether it's an awesome country music festival or rodeo or tractor pull or something. There's a lot of nostalgia for country with wealthy city people so some kind of event could be successful.

 

The trouble with mining or industry towns is economic downturn can leave some awful black holes behind.

 

I almost think there should be some kind of legal prerequisite like there is for environmental clean up for psychological clean up when the FIFO work stops. I doubt it will happen though.

 

I'd love to see Australia learn to cultivate and market more native foods as well, but I don't know how realistic that is.

[KungFuPanda]

Well, if locals didn't want the Rite Aid, why did they shop there?  :confused1:

Sometimes insurance companies contract with specific pharmacies. If you don't use those pharmacies you pay much higher prices for meds.

 

I lived in a planned city. We love it. Sometimes we talk about downsizing to somewhere less expensive, but smaller towns and rural locations often don't have the wheelchair accessibility we need. I imagine this keeps the senior population from retiring there. Main streets are cute and all, but if they're full of protected historic buildings, we literally can't get in the door to do business there.

[regentrude]

Another issue is schooling. A lot of ag towns, the kids go away to boarding school for high school and too often they don't come back.

 

Schools are a big problem in rural US, too. Boarding schools are not very common; most kids go to school in their communities. The high school education of the small rural schools is often not particularly good. It is simply not feasible for a school with a class size of ten students to hire qualified teachers for upper level subjects. Math and foreign languages are often pitiful, as I hear from conversations with my college students - a large portion of them comes from small towns in our state and feels short changed by their crappy schools.

[Seasider]

Driving through Arizona, Utah, Nevada, or New Mexico, we pass through vast stretches of what cannot be described by any other term.

I was wondering about that, too. But even what seem like wastelands are usually privately held (for ranchers' right of way, perhaps), under national park jurisdiction, or assigned to a native people group, wouldn't you think? Many of the areas that I've driven through like that in various parts of the country seem to have future potential for oil & gas extraction* or solar or wind farms. That would explain why someone would retain ownership.

 

*Not that I'm an advocate of that - it just explains why such lands may hold value that's not apparent on the surface.

[heartlikealion]

Why was it torn down?

 

I'm guessing because a lot of stores inside the mall had shut down. The real issue I believe was the rent went up and businesses were leaving. The mall became more and more dead. I'm trying to remember if the movie theater in the mall was still open or not. The plan was to tear it down and put a Wal-Mart there. There were mixed reactions to that. Wal-Mart was in other neighboring towns, but for some people it would still be appreciated because less driving and keeping tax dollars in town. But for whatever reason the WM thing fell through. One dept. store if I recall correctly remained open (one of the stores on the end of the mall). So either they didn't fully tear it down and it's an empty shell with the one dept. store open or they tore down everything but that one store. I cannot remember. I visited the town a few months ago. Some stores probably become more obsolete over time as well. Like when I was a teen I spent a great deal of time in the record store. They also sold concert tickets there. There was a small book store. We didn't have a "true" food court in my opinion. There were a couple food places, but not even all side by side. One was a restaurant with its own entrance. When my sister worked at the cookie shop they baked them fresh daily. Another mall employee told me when I was visiting that things changed and the cookie shop saved leftovers and stored in tupperware. I don't know how long they kept them.

 

I'm sure people's shopping habits play a role, but I do think if they had a Walmart or Target or something like that, people would definitely frequent it.

[Seasider]

Another thing in the US you had to live on your land to homestead--it was a condition of ownership. So people would stake a quarter section, and build a house there, and not go into town very often at all. Whereas there are other European communities where everyone lives in a little town or village and walks or rides out to their fields every day to work on them. Different model, more distributed population than that breeds a certain town vs. country feel, and militates against building community in the traditional sense of the term.

Good point. "Independence" is pretty much our national motto, and in hindsight, so many things contribute to that.

[SKL]

They tear down vacant malls etc. because they are depressing to the community, in both senses of the word.  Better to use the land for green space or an active project.

[heartlikealion]

What sort of small businesses are worth developing in small towns, that will bring people in?

 

My little town does ok because we are just off the freeway between the capital and the state border, so if you want non-servo food, it's a good place to stop. Senior citizen groups on day trips stop here too. They keep the cafes open. It's also an old people town, and they all eat at the bakery for something to do.

 

I don't shop much so it's hard for me to think about.

 

My SIL used to have a maternity clothes shop, and she said people came from two hours away. What other businesses could have that sort of effect?

 

I think people will drive for entertainment. I know a few towns I've lived in did not have a bowling alley. Like where I live now. I think it's ridiculous I have to drive an hour to get to a bowling alley!! I used to be on a bowling league. My son has only bowled a handful of times (being petty here... I didn't enjoy taking him to the homeschool bowling group much as none of the adults bowled. I felt left out hahaha! and he couldn't really hold the ball so it was basically me lugging the ball to the line or propping it up on this device that looks like a slide for him to push it down).

 

Movie theaters would attract me to a town, too. We currently drive 45 min. to go to a great theater. It's a nice theater and close to other shopping we do at least. When I lived in another small town I had to drive about 30 min? to a theater. It was in another somewhat small town and we'd really just see the movie and leave. It was an older style theater, no stadium seating. It was good enough, but nowadays I don't think dh could handle that style seating very well. He likes to sit in the row that has a big gap for legs and then a rail.

 

I have made it a point to drive to a particular baby shop. I bought both my baby carriers there. They have stuff you could try on and a very knowledgeable owner. Competitive pricing. I was on vacation visiting family and then drove like 30 min to it? From here I wouldn't drive because it's too many hours away. I finished paying for my carrier online. They had a layaway program and then shipped it to me when I finished paying it off. I can definitely see how a maternity shop would appeal to people, too. There were a couple times I drove to one. And not all locations of Old Navy sell their maternity stuff in store. I lucked out that I found one that did so I could try on.

 

Other things would interest me... kid-friendly places for example. Children's museum, some activity place (I don't know, indoor rock climbing, mini golf, etc.). Businesses that offer extracurriculars (martial arts, dance, art classes, archery, etc.). For an adult maybe an indoor shooting range, place with live music/good food (maybe even a Dave & Buster's type place. I've never been but they interest me).

 

Currently I'm looking at all the types of things that interest my family and they are such a pain to get to. I think dh will work with ds on archery in the backyard.

[Bluegoat]

Well, I don't know sufficiently detailed information about medical consortia financials to really support "can't."  "Doesn't" support a medical center would perhaps be a better way to describe it.  Whether or not a consortia "could" stay in business here, it is more profitable for a medical center to locate in more concentrated areas -- and similarly all sorts of other retail and service-oriented businesses.  Left to the market, many private businesses will choose a location based on how many customers are there, right?  In the US, many medical providers are structured as private businesses.  That model works less well in sparsely populated areas, just as for any other type of business.  

 

I drive ~20 minutes in one direction to my kids' pediatric consortia (which has affiliated lab facilities for bloodwork.      EKG, MRI, radiology etc) and ~20 minutes in a different direction to my and my husband's general practitioner (which has an opthamologist, cardiologist, urologist and several NPs in the practice).  The nearest full-service hospital is ~35 minutes away.

 

 

 

Re cultural aversion to public planning -- I guess there are a couple ways to look at it.  One rooted in our national origin myth of fierce independence, whose other facet is a distrust of government generally.  Another is our faith that unfettered markets will deliver the best solutions.  In places with very sparse populations, or in sectors like broadband infrastructure, (and of course in all sorts of other areas of "market failure" like pollution or self-selection in insurance and blah blah blah) that depends on what you think "best" means.  Free markets do, inevitably, leave some folks behind.  That's how they work, right?

 

Even in a big city, though, people can easily spend 30 min in transit to get to a doctor, especially a specialist.

[Bluegoat]

I think at a basic level, a town needs a source of income.  An industry, at least one.  So it could be agriculture or resources.  It could be that it is in a place that is a shipping nexus.  Or tourism.

 

I've lived in a few small towns, they had some successes but they did always seem to struggle.  One was no question an agriculture town.  It was in an area with great soil.  So some of its largest employers were a feed mill and other businesses that served farmers.  A big fuel cmpany was headquartered there, some government services, a hospitalIt also was at the nexus of all the rail lines in the province, which had once been a big deal. 

 

My dad lives in a village.  They are struggling with population loss but more than that, with increased infrastructure regulations they have no way to pay for.  As a result many small towns here have de-incorporated, and now those costs will fall on the country.  The crazy thing is, that won't help - there still aren't more people to pay for the changes.  But it isn't really the fault of the towns, its a problem of higher governments.

 

Anyway - his village has lost some of its old industries - most fishing and forestry.  They are a major blueberry producer though.  And they have some tourism, centered around a fossil festival.

 

They have managed to stay involved as a community - in part because a bigger city is not that close.  So, they need to be able to do things in town.  they have a tiny hospital, a theatre group that runs plays and camps in summer, a co-op grocery, a hardware store, some tourist services and shops, and so on.  They do things like dances, church suppers, concerts and open mike nights, they play movies at a community center a few times a month. 

[regentrude]

I was wondering about that, too. But even what seem like wastelands are usually privately held (for ranchers' right of way, perhaps), under national park jurisdiction, or assigned to a native people group, wouldn't you think? Many of the areas that I've driven through like that in various parts of the country seem to have future potential for oil & gas extraction* or solar or wind farms. That would explain why someone would retain ownership.

 

*Not that I'm an advocate of that - it just explains why such lands may hold value that's not apparent on the surface.

 

Oh, definitely. There is some grazing (you need huge tracts of land to sustain lifestock on the meager grass that grows); there are oil and gas developments, but the point is that large parts of those areas are extremely sparsely populated, not suitable for farming, and unlikely to ever attract a higher population density that can sustain vibrant comunities.

[fairfarmhand]

One thing that seems to hold back some American small towns and fading cities is a cultural identity tied to the industry that has left - such as the auto industry or the coal industry. There is sometimes a sense that if they can't bring back "their" industry, that nothing will ever work again. And thus there's a strong resistance to retraining or even encouraging the next generation to look ahead to the next industry. So the next generation either leaves or stagnates, in part because of jobs, but also in part because of attitudes.

 

I always think that crafts and arts and antiques are a really limited way to bring in revenue except in the most successful places. I know that as the price of fuel rises, some manufacturing may come back. And that clean energy jobs like wind and solar farms are a growing thing. But I can't pretend to know the answers for sure.

 

ETA: I was thinking about how this was an issue in southern towns when the textile factories left. My grandparents both worked in one much of their lives and lost their jobs when it left. But it seems to have mostly left as an issue - I don't hear people talk about that so much anymore. I wonder if it's the time or if things like coal and auto plants will be harder to move on from culturally because people were better paid (the textile mills were jobs but not entries to the middle class).

 

This article talks about this topic. it's on Newton IA, a place that previously depended on Maytag.

[Pam in CT]

re transit times vs population density

Even in a big city, though, people can easily spend 30 min in transit to get to a doctor, especially a specialist.

 

 

Sure -- my first NYC apartment was 5 short north-south and 5 verrrrrry long east-west blocks from the nearest subway.  Took me 20 minutes just to get to the station, before I started moving towards my actual destination.

 

Still, the population in NY supports many medical providers, many times more than my "small" town of 17,000.  It's the number of customers supporting the business model, not their travel minutes, that matters.

[luuknam]

I don't think anybody's answered a PP's question about what a server farm is, so: A server farm is a place where they have a lot of computers that you can rent processing or storage space on. Like, the company my wife works for uses servers in Florida, iirc, because that's cheaper than having their own computers (I mean, they obviously have computers for people to work on, but when they've got a big job to do they use a server farm). 

 

Some random thoughts: when I worked at a factory doing more or less minimum wage temp work in 2008, it wasn't that uncommon for other temp workers to sometimes not show up because they didn't have gas money (gas was $4/gallon). I'm talking about multiple people, not just one person... obviously, they lost more money by not showing up than it would've cost them in gas, and this was not particularly a rural problem (factory was about 1-2 miles to the south of the city (pop 35,000 iirc), but you had to get on a highway to get to the factory - iirc it was physically impossible to bicycle or walk (not just unsafe)), but it does make me wonder about solutions that involve traveling... the moment travel becomes more expensive, it's going to hurt the economy, and it's going to hurt more the more the economy is based on travel (the more gas costs, the less often people are willing to drive an hour to a quilting shop... the cost of driving there goes up at the same time their other expenses go up, because when gas prices go up *everything* becomes more expensive). 

 

In the small town (pop 1200) we lived in, one restaurant eventually went out of business, which didn't surprise us at all... we ate there I think 1-2 times total in the 6 years we lived there, and would've more often, if only they would've accepted credit cards. I don't want to pay $30 for dinner in cash... I mean, it's not so much that I'm unwilling to, but if I look in my purse and see no physical money, then I'm going to drive 15 miles to town rather than eat there. Obviously, this is not really a rural problem either, other than that I think that kind of "we only take cash because we always have" attitude might be more common in small towns, and that I don't know if anybody is going to be willing to risk starting a new restaurant now that that one is out of business. The town's grocery store burned down in iirc 2008, and we wondered if that was really an accident, what with small town and recession and all that. They did open a new one days before we moved to WNY at the end of 2012, so, who knows.

 

IME, a fair number of truck drivers live in small or mid-size towns. Obviously, that's not an industry you can start, but my point is that it's a career where where you live doesn't matter all that much. That said, who knows when that'll be automated away.

 

What I like about the current county we're in (which is about 25 by 40 miles) is that all 37 libraries (plus a bookmobile) are part of the county system, and you can return your books at any branch. You can also request books from any branch, which costs iirc 25 cents per book (I think maybe only 10 cents per kids' book?) and might take up to a week to get it depending on from which branch to which branch something needs to go. Also, the library is doing a passport to reading thing this summer where you can get a stamp at each library you visit and then get entered for a grand prize if you do all branches (and entered for a lesser price for each branch or something). Now, I think just driving around to libraries is pretty terrible for the environment, but on the other hand, I seriously like libraries (and had been to about half the branches already), so I'm just trying to find reasons to drive 30 miles south to a branch or something (took the kids berry picking at a u-pick farm (where we also had lunch) and then hit 4 branches in one day). 

 

Um... things we'd drive for. When we lived in small town, TX, we drove for just about anything (because of burnt-down grocery store and restaurant that wouldn't take credit cards and no library and school bussed Celery 23 miles the first year and 32 miles the second year to school in county co-op and dr was in town 15 miles away and we worked in town 15 miles away or wife eventually even worked in OK 65 miles away, and I commuted to university 75 miles away etc etc etc... I mean, we even drove 6 miles to the next town for the laundromat before we got a washer&dryer). Things we currently drive for... well, we don't live in a small town currently, but when we moved here the ped we could get was a 20 min drive, because they others weren't accepting new patients or didn't work with our insurance, so, that was about the same as when we lived in small town, except a lot fewer miles. But anyway, back to more rural stuff... I mentioned the library thing and the u-pick farm. I just took my wife and Broccoli (primitive) camping in a state forest 35 miles to the south or something (dropped them off on F, picked them up on Su), but there was zero benefit for the people in that area, since I did not see a gas station or food or anything, so we refilled the car and ourselves when we got back to a city. Um, other tourist stuff? Like, Fort Niagara, some open air museum, beach, etc.