Take back the rainbow!! or Moxie hurt herself rolling her eyes

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe a large group of gay and trans people should get together and take a field trip to the museum now that they have rolled out the welcome mat. 

 

 

[Wheres Toto]

I'm all for Skittles. Except the green ones which are now green apple instead of lime which is blasphemy. Also, Skittles promosed me lime ones this summer, but I have been unable to locate them even though I have gone to several WalMarts in more than one city only to find more blasphemy.

 

So, yes for the rainbow as long as we're throwing the green ones in the trash.

 

My local Walmarts have them.   Big massive bags of them.  I may be on a Skittles kick for some reason, ever since I had to buy some for a solubility experiment and I bought way way way too many.  

[MercyA]

nm, I figured it out. :blush:  

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by MercyA

[slackermom]

I thought this was going to be about leprechauns and their gold....

[Classic Mom]

Yes, a friend posted this a few days ago. I scrolled past the first day, but the next day I felt like I had to respond.  I don't engage in political discussions on Facebook, but I did send her a personal message to express my feeling about it.  Here is part of that response (edited to take out personal information):

 

I saw your post about the rainbow. I tried to scroll past and ignore it. I went to bed. I saw it again in the morning, and I had to say something.

 

40% of transgender kids try to commit suicide.  Many succeed. It is a statistic that has kept me up nights. I found one small study that controls for family environment.  If the child is accepted by their family, the suicide rate returns to that of “average†teens.  I believe that it must follow then that if the child is accepted by their faith family, then that would also decrease depression and suicide in these kids.

 

The rainbow has become a symbol of love and acceptance for LGBTQ+ kids. I don’t think that takes away from the biblical message at all. What the LGBTQ+ kids need more than anything is a faith community that is open and accepting. 

 

On a personally note, when our child came to us and told us he was a boy, we were completely shocked. There were no clues. He told us that was because he was trying so hard to be a girl and didn’t want to acknowledge that he was a boy. Since, transitioning he is happier, less anxious, and much more self confident. There is no question is our minds that this not something we (or he) has the power to change. We believe that God lovely created him this way, and we should, therefore, love and accept him.

 

So, when you post about Christians taking back the rainbow…I hear you taking it away from my son.

 

[MercyA]

Ken Ham takes actions I believe are driving people away from Christianity.

 

YES. And that is a very serious thing.  :(

 

I feel badly for the man, I really do. I can't judge his motives, but his emphasis seems all wrong to me. 

[ErinE]

Ken Ham lost all my respect when he started "the kerfluffle" with SWB. (You know the lady who provides for these boards for us, at no charge?)

 

 

This x 1000

 

I struggle to understand how people on this board can still defend him after that whole debacle

Edited July 22, 2017 by ErinE

[Guest]

This x 1000

 

I struggle to understand how people on this board can still defend him after that whole debacle

I don't think I was on here at the time. Got a link? I'm always open to more information and revisions of opinion if needed. Edited July 22, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[nixpix5]

:iagree: And this is problematic don't you think? What happens when kids grow up and decide the science on the other side is just too compelling? Ken Ham has tied YEC with salvation so closely, made it sound like if you believe in God and Jesus, you must believe in a literal Genesis. So if you don't believe in one anymore... I guess that disproves the other.

 

It also gives non-Christians the easiest ammo ever. "God can't exist because obviously the universe is not ten thousand years old." It simply HAS to be a barrier to non-Christians considering Christianity. To encounter the idea that they have to throw out everything that science says about the universe in order to be a Christian.

 

Ken Ham takes actions I believe are driving people away from Christianity.

This right here is actually my issue with him.

 

I am fine with someone being YEC but Ken has a stance that gives no wriggle room for Christians to be OEC. His arguments are full of so many holes. He treats people like they should just "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". He is so arrogant and blatently claims things about science that are categorically untrue. It is insulting and once a kid goes deeper into science later, it does pit him against his beliefs and it leaves him thinking it can only be one way. I do think this can dangerously drive kids away from their faith. I think he makes Christians look hypocritical and ignorant which perpetuates this misconception that Christianity and science cannot co-exist and enhance one another.

[MercyA]

Meanwhile Christians are literally dying for their faith in certain areas of the world. :crying:

 

Talk about "first world problems" Christian edition! :glare:

 

Yep. Reminds me of all the fuss over stupid Starbucks cups. 

 

I like rainbows. I like things that light up. I like the story of the ark and believe it to be both instructive and historically accurate. 

 

I do not like the amount of money that's been spent on the Creation museum or the ark, and I don't plan to visit.

[MommyLiberty5013]

This x 1000

 

I struggle to understand how people on this board can still defend him after that whole debacle

What occurred? I was not here until a few weeks ago?

[nixpix5]

What occurred? I was not here until a few weeks ago?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/marchweb-only/kenhamhomeschool.html

 

I think they are referring to this.

[MercyA]

What's wrong with being different? The herd mentality is what's wrong with the world today. I dont mind sticking out.

 

Anytime I put my opinion on any board here, I get made fun of or picked on. Why? I'm not controversial at all. Not confrontational or anything. I just nicely add my thoughts to everyone else's. I don't see the problem? I believe in a literal 6 day creation and a young Earth. I believe dinosaurs walked with man. And for that I'm considered unintelligent?

 

No one should be making fun of you or picking on you. However, you can expect to have your views challenged here. I've learned a lot here in the past several years. I've changed my mind on some topics and haven't budged a bit on others.  ;)  I don't mind the debate, because if I am right, my views will stand up to scrutiny. If I am wrong, on the other hand, I want to know it!

 

I admire you for being kind and non-confrontational. I don't think you're unintelligent. The vast majority of Young Earth creationists I know are *highly* intelligent. As a conservative Christian and Old Earth creationist I think they're wrong--but I don't think they're stupid.  :)

Edited July 22, 2017 by MercyA

[forty-two]

I don't think I was on here at the time. Got a link? I'm always open to more information and revisions of opinion if needed.

In addition to the above link, here's the WTM threads on the topic: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/tags/forums/kerfluffle/

[Guest]

In addition to the above link, here's the WTM threads on the topic: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/tags/forums/kerfluffle/

Oh. Peter Enns. Yeah, no. Can't say I'm really in agreement with SWB's blog post on the topic of his "Inspiration and Incarnation" book either, though she was thorough and careful. She has such a way with words that always makes me loathe to disagree, even when I do :lol:

 

Personal attacks are never called for, though so much has been deleted or the content I can't tell exactly who said what and what was through other people involved. Interesting mess there. I wasn't around at this time in homeschooling circles, just starting out in the elementary grades, so I missed a lot of it. I won't defend anyone involved.

 

ETA - on the topic of the book I'm going with Dr. White on this one. He remains my favorite living apologist and Christian thinker.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Artichoke]

:iagree:  And this is problematic don't you think? What happens when kids grow up and decide the science on the other side is just too compelling? Ken Ham has tied YEC with salvation so closely, made it sound like if you believe in God and Jesus, you must believe in a literal Genesis. So if you don't believe in one anymore... I guess that disproves the other.

 

It also gives non-Christians the easiest ammo ever. "God can't exist because obviously the universe is not ten thousand years old." It simply HAS to be a barrier to non-Christians considering Christianity. To encounter the idea that they have to throw out everything that science says about the universe in order to be a Christian.

 

Ken Ham takes actions I believe are driving people away from Christianity.

 

I do believe it's problematic.  Many people have debated  OEC vs YEC and will continue to do so.  I have no desire to join that debate.   What bothers me is that the debate itself has become a fundamental part of Christianity, and sometimes homeschooling  in many circles , with  the labeling of YEC folks as being ignorant and the OEC folks being unbelievers.   

[FaithManor]

This x 1000

 

I struggle to understand how people on this board can still defend him after that whole debacle

To be fair, Arctic and some others were not on the board back then and have no idea about the kerfuffle and especially so if their littles were not yet old enough to be homeschooling so were not clued in to what happened.

 

Probably if we are going to bring the grand kerfuffle into this, we need to do a recap of the issue, or link the most epic thread in board history so they can read the first couple of pages.

 

I remember it so fondly. I emailed K.H. and calmly, politely told him he had violated the terms of his speaking contract and to please apologize the SWB and Peter Enns so

 

4 He emailed me back with so much rabid, frothing that the email wasn't fit to copy and paste here. Then somewhere along the way he did his cartoon of the Japanese Tsunami with stick figures of people and churches being drowned, and with possibly slightly less patience that time, I emailed him and told him that I felt he needed to ask forgiveness/ publicly apologize for that because it was very hurtful to a grieving, traumatised people to have their tragedy trivialized. That got me sacked. I was permanently blocked. He went out of his way to let me know that. Dr. Jay Wile took him on and ended up in the same boat.

 

It was pretty bad. Many of the newer hive bees have no idea. So we either need to link it, have some industrious hive professor write a synopsis, or PM those that have no idea about the kerfuffle.

[Guest]

To be fair, Arctic and some others were not on the board back then and have no idea about the kerfuffle and especially so if their littles were not yet old enough to be homeschooling so were not clued in to what happened.

 

Probably if we are going to bring the grand kerfuffle into this, we need to do a recap of the issue, or link the most epic thread in board history so they can read the first couple of pages.

 

I remember it so fondly. I emailed K.H. and calmly, politely told him he had violated the terms of his speaking contract and to please apologize the SWB and Peter Enns so

 

4 He emailed me back with so much rabid, frothing that the email wasn't fit to copy and paste here. Then somewhere along the way he did his cartoon of the Japanese Tsunami with stick figures of people and churches being drowned, and with possibly slightly less patience that time, I emailed him and told him that I felt he needed to ask forgiveness/ publicly apologize for that because it was very hurtful to a grieving, traumatised people to have their tragedy trivialized. That got me sacked. I was permanently blocked. He went out of his way to let me know that. Dr. Jay Wile took him on and ended up in the same boat.

 

It was pretty bad. Many of the newer hive bees have no idea. So we either need to link it, have some industrious hive professor write a synopsis, or PM those that have no idea about the kerfuffle.

I haven't seen his side of it, most has been deleted from my quick perusal, but that sort of dialogue is very disappointing and inappropriate, whether Bauer and Enns are correct or not. How specifically did he violate the speaking contract? Edited July 22, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[meganrussell]

No one should be making fun of you or picking on you. However, you can expect to have your views challenged here. I've learned a lot here in the past several years. I've changed my mind on some topics and haven't budged a bit on others. ;) I don't mind the debate, because if I am right, my views will stand up to scrutiny. If I am wrong, on the other hand, I want to know it!

 

I admire you for being kind and non-confrontational. I don't think you're unintelligent. The vast majority of Young Earth creationists I know are *highly* intelligent. As a conservative Christian and Old Earth creationist I think they're wrong--but I don't think they're stupid. :)

Thank you. My 9 year old daughter is named Mercie. ☺ï¸

[Guest]

Hi Moxie! Hi Hive! I'm too busy copying and pasting this on to all of my cooking forums and cat forums and sewing forums and other hobby forums to read all the posts right now but I just wanted to let you know that the man in my life thought my pocket telephone might have a virus so I took it back to the shop at the mall where I bought it and tech support said they thought he might have been right.

 

Making sure all y'all know that I don't know anything more about what this thread is actually about than I do about thot thar newfangled interwebz thingy or than I do about kimpyouters, I just wannabe a standup comedienne when I grow up and i thought i could save the man in my life a few dollars by trying to teach myself instead of asking him to sign me up for a class like decent people doo.

 

Oops! My bad. I'm sorry. The library lady who helped me write this says it's somebody else's turn for the publick kimpyouter now but customer service should really call the manufacturer and see if they can replace my pocket telephone so i didn't want everybody to be mad at me when the man in my life finally had time to try to teach me how pocket telephones work.

 

Better luck next time, huh?

 

Sorry 'bout that. My bad. Maybe I should just take up knitting instead or ask the library lady what book I want to read.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Guest

[Corraleno]

I haven't seen his side of it, most has been deleted from my quick perusal, but that sort of dialogue is very disappointing and inappropriate, whether Bauer and Enns are correct or not. How specifically did he violate the speaking contract?

 

He openly criticized SWB and Enns as dangerous "compromisers" and not real Christians, and urged people to boycott their books — in homeschool convention talks where they were fellow speakers. I'm sure it was a total coincidence that he had just hired someone to write a competing homeschool history curriculum for his own company. :001_rolleyes: 

 

He also published a cartoon in which people like SWB and Enns were being punished for "leading people astray" by being drowned with millstones around their necks. It was vicious and disgusting. 

[Liz CA]

I, too, thought perhaps Moxie had eaten too many skittles or maybe one of her kids spilled them and she fell...

 

I drove by this a couple of weeks ago. And the replacement for the big butter Jesus. I didn't stop. It was during the day, so no rainbow lights.

 

Hijack--One night on the way to visit my grandmother, we drove by the big butter Jesus in a storm. That was the first and last time I saw it. I said, "Wow! I hope it doesn't get hit by lightning." About 20 minutes later, it was destroyed by lightning. I might be a witch.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kings_(statue)

 

Why did they call it the Big Butter Jesus?

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Liz CA

[Guest]

He openly criticized SWB and Enns as dangerous "compromisers" and not real Christians, and urged people to boycott their books — in homeschool convention talks where they were fellow speakers. I'm sure it was a total coincidence that he had just hired someone to write a competing homeschool history curriculum for his own company. :001_rolleyes:

 

He also published a cartoon in which people like SWB and Enns were being punished for "leading people astray" by being drowned with millstones around their necks. It was vicious and disgusting.

Ah ha. Well I'm not in disagreement about his opinions on the content of some of their stuff, though I think it's wrong to call them false teachers or accuse them of not being Christians, as they obviously are by so many other metrics. But if his approach was really that aggressive and dismissive he was completely wrong and should be rebuked for that, regardless of his underlying opinion. We can disagree with someone, even publically and vehemently, without mocking them. That just cheapens any legitimate points against what they're saying and distracts from the issues. It also isn't the appropriate way a believer should interact with another believer, even if they are compromising biblical truth. Speaking the truth in love. Both parts of that are crucial.

 

I have agreed with and supported the ministry for years, and Ham personally, but if what you're saying is accurate his actions require repentance here even if his beliefs do not. I can't definitively judge because I wasn't around for it and the documentation is spotty, but it sounds like he was in the wrong here.

 

Which is a total aside from the rainbow lights ;)

[Seasider]

Ah, the tsunami cartoon. I'd forgotten about that.

 

I've spoken my piece a number of times on the OE/YE debate, won't repeat it here.

 

As for the rainbow, well, I hate to see it wielded like a weapon by either side. I wish we could all see it as a bridge instead, a bridge of grace, with all its layers.

[Caroline]

Why did they call it the Big Butter Jesus?

 

In person it looked like it was carved out of butter. It was a sight to behold.

[Liz CA]

He openly criticized SWB and Enns as dangerous "compromisers" and not real Christians, and urged people to boycott their books — in homeschool convention talks where they were fellow speakers. I'm sure it was a total coincidence that he had just hired someone to write a competing homeschool history curriculum for his own company. :001_rolleyes: 

 

He also published a cartoon in which people like SWB and Enns were being punished for "leading people astray" by being drowned with millstones around their necks. It was vicious and disgusting. 

 

I remember the thread here a couple of years back about the Ken Ham kerfluffle. Is this what you are referring to?

Don't know him. He was either not a name yet waay back when we homeschooled or I was living too far off the grid to have heard about him.  ;)

 

It is sad if he is being divisive. One can voice an opinion - even a differing opinion from fellow Christians, hear, hear - without being outright mean. He is entitled to his interpretation and others have to see for themselves what they take out of scripture.

I wish I was closer to Kentucky. I'd like to see the ark.

 

[Guest]

Ken Ham lost all my respect when he started "the kerfluffle" with SWB. (You know the lady who provides for these boards for us, at no charge?)

 

He does not represent Christianity in my mind and as far as I'm concerned, he can pound sand.

Yup. This is what I was going to say. Don't you cause trouble with our SWB, man.

[Guest]

Ah ha. Well I'm not in disagreement about his opinions on the content of some of their stuff, though I think it's wrong to call them false teachers or accuse them of not being Christians, as they obviously are by so many other metrics. But if his approach was really that aggressive and dismissive he was completely wrong and should be rebuked for that, regardless of his underlying opinion. We can disagree with someone, even publically and vehemently, without mocking them. That just cheapens any legitimate points against what they're saying and distracts from the issues. It also isn't the appropriate way a believer should interact with another believer, even if they are compromising biblical truth. Speaking the truth in love. Both parts of that are crucial.

 

I have agreed with and supported the ministry for years, and Ham personally, but if what you're saying is accurate his actions require repentance here even if his beliefs do not. I can't definitively judge because I wasn't around for it and the documentation is spotty, but it sounds like he was in the wrong here.

 

Which is a total aside from the rainbow lights ;)

He was in the wrong. Extremely, severely and publically in the wrong.

 

I was a YEC once. Strangly enough, I changed my mind while reading an apologist YEC book.

 

EYA: this was the book that made me go, "But, wait a second..." https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mysteries-Creation-Dennis-Petersen/dp/0890513716/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500687455&sr=8-1&keywords=unlocking+the+mysteries+of+creation

Edited July 22, 2017 by Quill

[mamaraby]

My local Walmarts have them. Big massive bags of them. I may be on a Skittles kick for some reason, ever since I had to buy some for a solubility experiment and I bought way way way too many.

Awe!! That's not fair! I would have bought an unhealthy amount of them too. But to share, with my family. Definitely to share.

 

I never shop at WalMart as a general rule, but I have been in way more WalMarts lately only to leave disappointed. :sniff, sniff:

[Guest]

Maybe a large group of gay and trans people should get together and take a field trip to the museum now that they have rolled out the welcome mat.

Your wit is literary genius.

[Mimm]

I was around for the kerfuffle but I'd forgotten some of the nastier details. But yeah, since then, I've stopped viewing him as nice-but-misguided and now see him as a harmful, mean spirited, petty, little man.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I was around for the kerfuffle but I'd forgotten some of the nastier details. But yeah, since then, I've stopped viewing him as nice-but-misguided and now see him as a harmful, mean spirited, petty, little man.

 

He is petty and vindictive.  His kind has had a great deal to do with creating an environment where "fake news" is a response to reason and evidence.

 

As far as the YEC folks, I can't respect a belief that is treats religion as if it is science, and believes that science operates as an opinion.  I see them being fundamentally the same as flat earthers and the conspiracy theorists.

[Guest]

What's wrong with being different? The herd mentality is what's wrong with the world today. I dont mind sticking out.

 

Anytime I put my opinion on any board here, I get made fun of or picked on. Why? I'm not controversial at all. Not confrontational or anything. I just nicely add my thoughts to everyone else's. I don't see the problem? I believe in a literal 6 day creation and a young Earth. I believe dinosaurs walked with man. And for that I'm considered unintelligent?

I am betting you are mostly seen as not well informed, except by people who also believe the same way.

 

Nothing wrong with being different or having a different opinion. But believe me, people here who hate Ken Ham are not just hating him out of the blue. Especially here.

 

If you really want to be brave, start a thread asking why so many people don't believe in a literal, 6-day, young earth creation. But don't do this until you have a massive number of hours to devote to it.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Quill

[Southern Ivy]

I remember the thread here a couple of years back about the Ken Ham kerfluffle. Is this what you are referring to?

Don't know him. He was either not a name yet waay back when we homeschooled or I was living too far off the grid to have heard about him.  ;)

 

It is sad if he is being divisive. One can voice an opinion - even a differing opinion from fellow Christians, hear, hear - without being outright mean. He is entitled to his interpretation and others have to see for themselves what they take out of scripture.

I wish I was closer to Kentucky. I'd like to see the ark.

Probably too far off the grid. ;) I remember having to watch his videos at my private school 25+ years ago. He may have not been in the homeschooling movement then, but I certainly remembered him when I saw his name pop up. 

 

[FaithManor]

I haven't seen his side of it, most has been deleted from my quick perusal, but that sort of dialogue is very disappointing and inappropriate, whether Bauer and Enns are correct or not. How specifically did he violate the speaking contract?

All speakers agreed not to malign each other or talk negatively about other speakers/vendors.

 

He called them "Enemies of Christ" for starters in one of his sessions, and then did not back down. When he was confronted by GHC, he refused to apologize. It went downhill from there.

[Guest]

He is petty and vindictive. His kind has had a great deal to do with creating an environment where "fake news" is a response to reason and evidence.

 

As far as the YEC folks, I can't respect a belief that is treats religion as if it is science, and believes that science operates as an opinion. I see them being fundamentally the same as flat earthers and the conspiracy theorists.

Megan. Don't start a thread on the topic unless you want this sort of response. Some posters can be respectful and not look down on you and be confident you know nothing on the topic and that's why you disagree with them. Most who will actually participate sound more like CR and Dot. It's just the way it goes on here and isn't worth the headache, butnyoy can search the archives for other threads and see how badly they went down.

[Guest]

All speakers agreed not to malign each other or talk negatively about other speakers/vendors.

 

He called them "Enemies of Christ" for starters in one of his sessions, and then did not back down. When he was confronted by GHC, he refused to apologize. It went downhill from there.

Sounds pretty cut and dry from a contractual standpoint.

[FaithManor]

Sounds pretty cut and dry from a contractual standpoint.

It was. The contract was clear. For one thing there is a financial interest at stake making one's opinion of another compromised by dollar signs to begin with because if one speaker mailings the work of another, his or her own sales might increase. So they do NOT allow this.

 

He was kicked out of Great Homeschool Conventions because of it.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Megan. Don't start a thread on the topic unless you want this sort of response. Some posters can be respectful and not look down on you and be confident you know nothing on the topic and that's why you disagree with them. Most who will actually participate sound more like CR and Dot. It's just the way it goes on here and isn't worth the headache, butnyoy can search the archives for other threads and see how badly they went down.

 

I wasn't disrespectful. You were a bit when you brushed off Ham's behavior directed at the owner of this site.

[Guest]

I wasn't disrespectful. You were a bit when you brushed off Ham's behavior directed at the owner of this site.

I agree, that was my mistake. I was completely unaware of the history being referenced and thought it was a more general opinion of him than a specific incident I hadn't heard of.

 

I meant respectful of beliefs, by the way. It's safe to say you are in no way respectful, religiously or intellectually, of Christians beliefs that align with a six day, as written creation. You have said as much many times. Megan and others should be forewarned that's not going to change short of miraculous intervention from on high ;)

Edited July 22, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[FaithManor]

Wait!!!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! There are days that AREN'T chocolate days?????

 

 

No.freaking.way!!!

 

:D

[Tanaqui]

Well, the truth is that a six day creation, as promoted by Ken Ham, does not square with verifiable evidence... well, not unless you're postulating that God deliberately created the world to look old. This would be possible for an omnipotent being, but really, it just raises more questions starting with "why????" and "so how do we know he didn't create the world, like, five minutes ago?"

 

If you believe in the literal creation story in Genesis, you might as well believe in geocentrism or a flat earth or Russell's teapot. It's simply not true.

 

Now, very intelligent people can believe very wrong things. It happens all the time. But that doesn't mean their beliefs should be given weight or taken seriously when the evidence is against them.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tanaqui

[MercyA]

He also published a cartoon in which people like SWB and Enns were being punished for "leading people astray" by being drowned with millstones around their necks. It was vicious and disgusting. 

 

:ohmy: Because of what? Because of their stance on creationism? 

 

If Ken Ham is concerned about causing little ones to stumble, he needs to start thinking about what's going to happen when the children he's influenced go to college and start taking mainstream science courses in geology and astronomy and genetics. Some parents seem so worried about their children losing their faith at college. Why? There is no reason for that.  :(

 

Could God have created the world in six 24-hour days? Of course. "He does whatsoever he pleases, in heaven and on earth." But it sure doesn't appear that's what He did. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by MercyA

[Tanaqui]

And for that matter, I will leave with a quote from Augustine. Now, if I've heard of Augustine, it follows that he must've been really, really influential on early Christian thought, because what do I know about that subject? So I bet he was a really smart guy too - certainly smart enough not to waste his time and ours with silly thought terminating cliches like "were you there?" (Boy, I'd love to hear an alleged murderer try that line in court!)

 

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

“Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [1 Timothy 1.7].â€

 

 

 

Quite right, Augustine. If you believe in the Bible (or the Koran, or whatever), and your interpretation of the Bible (etc.) doesn't fit a rational and dispassionate observation of the facts - and I assure you, whatever Ken Ham says, a six day creation and a literal worldwide flood simply does not - then you need to re-evaluate how you're reading that book.

[Tanaqui]

Meh, Sadie, that ship has sailed. People who assume homeschoolers are all religious whackjobs (or hippy dippy freaks, or hyperobsessive nuts who hate fun and chain our kids to desks 17 hours out of the day) are hardly going to ask our opinions on the subject or follow the minutiae of our forum posts.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Guinevere]

I'm just interrupting to say that I think the lights look really pretty, and the rainbow is the end of the story.

 

I understand it's a big ugly mess, and I don't want involved one way or the other, but it's a pretty ark.

[Frances]

I agree, that was my mistake. I was completely unaware of the history being referenced and thought it was a more general opinion of him than a specific incident I hadn't heard of.

 

I meant respectful of beliefs, by the way. It's safe to say you are in no way respectful, religiously or intellectually, of Christians beliefs that align with a six day, as written creation. You have said as much many times. Megan and others should be forewarned that's not going to change short of miraculous intervention from on high ;)

Are you respectful of all religious beliefs? Do you respect religious beliefs that women who are raped should be forced to marry the rapist? That gays should be stoned to death? That no medical intervention should ever be used so that a baby born at home with breathing problems should be left to die? These are all religious beliefs of some religious people. Not all beliefs should be respected. And just because they are religious beliefs does not grant them some automatic respect card.

 

I'm only talking about the beliefs, not the believers.

[Liz CA]

:iagree:  And this is problematic don't you think? What happens when kids grow up and decide the science on the other side is just too compelling? Ken Ham has tied YEC with salvation so closely, made it sound like if you believe in God and Jesus, you must believe in a literal Genesis. So if you don't believe in one anymore... I guess that disproves the other.

 

It also gives non-Christians the easiest ammo ever. "God can't exist because obviously the universe is not ten thousand years old." It simply HAS to be a barrier to non-Christians considering Christianity. To encounter the idea that they have to throw out everything that science says about the universe in order to be a Christian.

 

Ken Ham takes actions I believe are driving people away from Christianity.

 

This is why I always thought we should raise our kids to develop some analytical skills so they can decide for themselves (at college age or sooner) how they interpret scripture. I am, however, always leery of someone who tells others they are losing their salvation over something like YE or OE. Don't know if Ham does this. I am just going off what I am reading here and don't have that much time to research him in depth right now.

[Guest]

Are you respectful of all religious beliefs? Do you respect religious beliefs that women who are raped should be forced to marry the rapist? That gays should be stoned to death? That no medical intervention should ever be used so that a baby born at home with breathing problems should be left to die? These are all religious beliefs of some religious people. Not all beliefs should be respected. And just because they are religious beliefs does not grant them some automatic respect card.

 

I'm only talking about the beliefs, not the believers.

False equivocation here. We are not talking about all beliefs, but a specific one. And a reaction to a specific one.

 

I'm not circling this drain, been there and done that for a decade plus on the internet and it's never worth the time. Ever.

[Lawana]

Human nature. To believe what one wants to believe. Despite evidence to the contrary.

 

Also human nature. To understand rational thought and reason connected to empirical evidence. Hence the development of science.

 

A religious argument is just that. Religion addresses the human need for connectedness. Science addresses the need and desire for reason, rationality and empericism.

 

It is possible and likely to be both intelligent and desiring of connectedness. It is possible and likely to want reason and rationality. It is possible and likely to place desires for connectedness, reason and rationalility ahead of empericism.

 

Believe what you want. But understand that the combination of reason, rationality and empiricism has led to the ultimate achievements of human endeavor. You may dismiss those endeavors in favor of a belief that in the afterlife you will be vindicated. You are most welcome to those beliefs. After all, no one can verify that they are correct or not.