Congress Dress Code Discussion

[goldberry]

I don't think this is political in the partisan sense.  You've probably heard about it already, a women was refused entry to the Speaker's Lobby because she was wearing a sleeveless dress.  Now Ryan is contemplating "modernizing" or updating the dress code.  Okay, makes sense to me.  Honestly this story didn't even ring any bells or attract too much attention from me.

 

Then I read this editorial from someone who thinks it would be wrong to do that because the idea of men in polo shirts and crocs on the House floor is wrong, because we still need professionalism.

 

This really is rubbing me the wrong way, and here is why:  Why is allowing women to wear professional attire which can easily INCLUDE sleeveless tops and open toed shoes equivalent to allowing polo shirts and crocs on men?  The concept of what professional attire is has not changed much for men that I can tell.  I would still consider a suit to be professional.  It seems really sexist to me to think that because a women wears a sleeveless dress that men should be allowed to wear polo shirts.  Do you know what I mean?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/opinions/paul-ryan-congress-dress-opinion-robbins/index.html

 

I'm a loud and proud feminist and, in this case, I beg my sisters -- just grab a shawl and let's not go down this slippery slope.

....

So gentlemen, straighten that tie, and ladies, pull on your pantsuit, because when you represent us, we still expect you to both act and dress like you have the fate of the nation in your hands.

 

Just noting, the article was written by a women.  Does not affect my view of it.

Edited July 15, 2017 by goldberry

[AFwife Claire]

Well, this really rubs me the wrong way for completely different reasons.  Why do men *only* have the option of wearing a full suit and tie when they have to be "professionally dressed"?  I mean, it's 100 degrees and super humid--and the men are there, in their long sleeve dress shirts, suit coats, pants, and ties.  My husband wears one every. single. day., and he has quite a walk in from the parking lot.  Honestly, these women are a bunch of complainers. 

[regentrude]

I fail to see why wearing a short sleeve shirt or polo would make a man less professional (if women can wear sleeveless, and I am all for it, it seems ridiculous that men should have to wear long sleeves). It's not what one wears, it's how one behaves and speaks. High profile people have said and done unbelievably unprofessional things wearing tailored suits.

Maybe it is time to reevaaluate the entire dress code, for males and females. I have seen no evidence that dressing in suits makes people more productive. Perhaps this is an anachronism that should be thrown out altogether. There are fields that do just fine without one.

Edited July 15, 2017 by regentrude

[MommyLiberty5013]

This all circles back around to that jury duty discussion and dress code here.

 

In my finance days, I had a sleeveless dress (Ann Taylor) and a matching suit combination. Grey. Really awesome. I wore the coat meeting with clients, even on hot days, over the sleeveless dress. I wore the coat to anything job related with co workers, managers, or clients. I ditched the coat in my office or on break.

 

Sleeveless isn't the issue. It's just as a society we've become more casual. It's not Men v. Women IMO. It's just what is befitting the seriousness of the jobs. Can a woman be serious in sleeveless? Yes. But should she go sleeveless in a professional setting? I don't think so. And I do think women in congress in the Senate or House floors, should be okay with sleeves. Also the buildings have AC. It's just a non issue due to the heat being a viable excuse. And if a woman wants to cool off in her office, car, or outside for lunch, that's totally fine to be sleeveless there. I do think some places command more buttoned up, conservative dress.

Edited July 15, 2017 by MommyLiberty5013

[Retired]

Lets get  real if one of the democratic leaders suggest a moderiztion CNN would of worded the whole thing differently.  They  would of  used words like revolutionary, modern and kindness would drip from every word of the article.  I think its funny today CNN has 2 fox contributors comments on their page.  They are trying to look balanced LOL.  There are a few people on each channel  that are actually balance.  I wouldn't give my blanket trust to any media source   They have been bias for a long time.  I don't trust any new organization anymore. I search for my own sources.  I read foreign  press then make a decision on things.  I hate how America has lost true journalism.  Its freedom of a press that's suppose to actually be for the people     I'm a independant but not blind to the media biaz against republicans 

 

This BBC artical approached  the same subject without the bias

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40618356   Right to bare arms: Us congressman protest against dress code

[HomeAgain]

Ryan can't update a dress code that doesn't ban what he thinks it does.

 

The dress code simply states business attire.  That is all.  There isn't even a written dress code for the house.  It's all word of mouth.  That doesn't mean he's going to "update the dress code".  It means he can wipe the egg off his face if he concedes that not only are sleeveless dresses professional attire, but that our former and current first ladies were/are dressed appropriately while wearing them for business.

 

Frankly, I'd rather see professionals dressed in whatever they like rather than shysters and thugs dressed like professionals.

 

 

[regentrude]

Frankly, I'd rather see professionals dressed in whatever they like rather than shysters and thugs dressed like professionals.

 

Amen

[MommyLiberty5013]

And there's that invention called AC. Most buildings have it. The "it's hot out" line isn't a reason to go to more skin showing for men or women in high offices of the land. Lol.

 

And as "open minded" as many say we are, I wager we'd likely choose the suit clad person to handle our law, tax, or money stuff over a short sleeves/sleeveless clad person. If all we had to go on was appearance. Suits = professional.

 

That's the visual message suits and conservative dress convey. Visual message.

[Lady Florida.]

And there's that invention called AC. Most buildings have it. The "it's hot out" line isn't a reason to go to more skin showing for men or women in high offices of the land. Lol.

 

And as "open minded" as many say we are, I wager we'd likely choose the suit clad person to handle our law, tax, or money stuff over a short sleeves/sleeveless clad person. If all we had to go on was appearance. Suits = professional.

 

That's the visual message suits and conservative dress convey. Visual message.

 

We just saw our financial advisor Monday. He was wearing a short sleeved polo shirt and dress khakis, aka business casual. We found him to be highly professional. As for A/C, one has to go in and out of the car or bus or whatever and in humid climates that's all it takes to have your shirt wet with sweat. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[regentrude]

And as "open minded" as many say we are, I wager we'd likely choose the suit clad person to handle our law, tax, or money stuff over a short sleeves/sleeveless clad person. If all we had to go on was appearance. 

 

But we don't. 

And shouldn't.

[goldberry]

Lets get  real if one of the democratic leaders suggest a moderiztion CNN would of worded the whole thing differently.  They  would of  used words like revolutionary, modern and kindness would drip from every word of the article.  I think its funny today CNN has 2 fox contributors comments on their page.  They are trying to look balanced LOL.  There are a few people on each channel  that are actually balance.  I wouldn't give my blanket trust to any media source   They have been bias for a long time.  I don't trust any new organization anymore. I search for my own sources.  I read foreign  press then make a decision on things.  I hate how America has lost true journalism.  Its freedom of a press that's suppose to actually be for the people     I'm a independant but not blind to the media biaz against republicans 

 

This BBC artical approached  the same subject without the bias

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40618356   Right to bare arms: Us congressman protest against dress code

 

Please talk the issue and not the politics.  The article was an opinion piece, not a news article.  Of course an opinion piece has bias, that's what an opinion piece is.  I chose it to argue that particular opinion.

 

Also just a note, the opinion is on the conservative side of maintaining conservative dress.

Edited July 15, 2017 by goldberry

[goldberry]

 But should she go sleeveless in a professional setting? I don't think so.

 

May I ask why you feel this way?  I don't really understand.  What is it about arms that is inappropriate for a professional setting?  What is so different between a professional dress with short sleeves or sleeveless?

 

Also to clarify, I know many men who wear suits, but remove their jackets.  They either have short sleeves or long sleeves, which is fine. Arms in general aren't an issue of professionalism, either with men or women.  When I say suits, I'm not necessarily thinking they have to wear the jacket all the time in order to be professional.  

[goldberry]

Does professional attire for men typically mean long sleeves and no short sleeves?  I've never heard that. There are plenty of short sleeve dress shirts.

[Happy]

This all circles back around to that jury duty discussion and dress code here.

 

In my finance days, I had a sleeveless dress (Ann Taylor) and a matching suit combination. Grey. Really awesome. I wore the coat meeting with clients, even on hot days, over the sleeveless dress. I wore the coat to anything job related with co workers, managers, or clients. I ditched the coat in my office or on break.

 

Sleeveless isn't the issue. It's just as a society we've become more casual. It's not Men v. Women IMO. It's just what is befitting the seriousness of the jobs. Can a woman be serious in sleeveless? Yes. But should she go sleeveless in a professional setting? I don't think so. And I do think women in congress in the Senate or House floors, should be okay with sleeves. Also the buildings have AC. It's just a non issue due to the heat being a viable excuse. And if a woman wants to cool off in her office, car, or outside for lunch, that's totally fine to be sleeveless there. I do think some places command more buttoned up, conservative dress.

 

I agree with this. Sleeveless does say more casual.

 

On the local morning news show, the guys all wear suits. The gals all wear sleeveless dresses--even in the winter. I think its an attempt to up the sexy factor for the women.

 

Can people be serious without sleeves? You bet. But if the guys can't wear a short sleeved shirt w/o a jacket, then the gals need to also don a jacket.

 

If you don't like that, work to change the dress code.

[goldberry]

But if the guys can't wear a short sleeved shirt w/o a jacket, then the gals need to also don a jacket.

 

Are jackets required even if they are not speaking?

[Pawz4me]

And there's that invention called AC. Most buildings have it. The "it's hot out" line isn't a reason to go to more skin showing for men or women in high offices of the land. Lol.

 

And as "open minded" as many say we are, I wager we'd likely choose the suit clad person to handle our law, tax, or money stuff over a short sleeves/sleeveless clad person. If all we had to go on was appearance. Suits = professional.

 

That's the visual message suits and conservative dress convey. Visual message.

 

Nope, sorry.

 

I *might* have been that superficial and stupid when I was an older teen/young twenty something. But I'm way too old and have dealt with way too many professionals now to be influenced by dress Neat/clean/tidy--yes, that matters. But whether the person is wearing a suit or a polo or a sleeveless blouse -- irrelevant.

[Frances]

And there's that invention called AC. Most buildings have it. The "it's hot out" line isn't a reason to go to more skin showing for men or women in high offices of the land. Lol.

 

And as "open minded" as many say we are, I wager we'd likely choose the suit clad person to handle our law, tax, or money stuff over a short sleeves/sleeveless clad person. If all we had to go on was appearance. Suits = professional.

 

That's the visual message suits and conservative dress convey. Visual message.

I think it depends on the part of the country. I'm in the PNW and business casual is the norm here. As part of my job, a few times a year I go to the biggest firm in the state that advises wealthy clients on tax and investment issues. No one is wearing a suit or a tie.

[Lady Florida.]

Lets get  real if one of the democratic leaders suggest a moderiztion CNN would of worded the whole thing differently.  They  would of  used words like revolutionary, modern and kindness would drip from every word of the article.  I think its funny today CNN has 2 fox contributors comments on their page.  They are trying to look balanced LOL.  There are a few people on each channel  that are actually balance.  I wouldn't give my blanket trust to any media source   They have been bias for a long time.  I don't trust any new organization anymore. I search for my own sources.  I read foreign  press then make a decision on things.  I hate how America has lost true journalism.  Its freedom of a press that's suppose to actually be for the people     I'm a independant but not blind to the media biaz against republicans 

 

This BBC artical approached  the same subject without the bias

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40618356   Right to bare arms: Us congressman protest against dress code

 

The OP asked that we discuss this as a partisan issue. It's something that really should be discussed so please keep politics out of it. 

[Matryoshka]

I agree with this. Sleeveless does say more casual.

 

On the local morning news show, the guys all wear suits. The gals all wear sleeveless dresses--even in the winter. I think its an attempt to up the sexy factor for the women.

 

Or maybe it's just that they don't sell dresses with sleeves anymore.  I have heavy arms.  I look 5000x better in cap sleeves.  But darned if I can find a nice dress that has sleeves of any kind!  Don't forget the dress has to fit nicely and have sleeves.  If one dress happens to have sleeves but is otherwise not a style or fit that works, that doesn't count. 99% of professionally styled dresses seem to be sleeveless.  If sleeveless is 'casual', why are all the professional dresses sleeveless???

 

If they're going to decide that 'professional' dresses have sleeves, maybe it would be nice if they actually had some for sale in stores.  I don't think the news shows are necessarily asking their female anchors to wear sleeveless dresses as much as their attire reflects what is for sale for professional women.  Believe me, I bet 99% of women over their late 20's and/or who aren't thin with toned arms (that's most women, let's face it) would love to have alternatives to the sleeveless look that designers have insisted upon for a number of years now.

 

(None of that make me think that sleeveless professional dresses should be banned.)

Edited July 15, 2017 by Matryoshka

[Lady Florida.]

Or maybe it's just that they don't sell dresses with sleeves anymore.  I have heavy arms.  I look 5000x better in cap sleeves.  But darned if I can find a nice dress that has sleeves of any kind!  Don't forget the dress has to fit nicely and have sleeves.  If one dress happens to have sleeves but is otherwise not a style or fit that works, that doesn't count. 99% of professionally styled dresses seem to be sleeveless.  If sleeveless is 'casual', why are all the professional dresses sleeveless???

 

 

I have old lady arms. It's not just professional attire. Yesterday I went shopping for a dress for my cousin's wedding next month. All of the dresses are were either sleeveless or long sleeved. No way am I wearing long sleeves in Florida in August (no, not even with A/C). I finally found one with a sort of attached sheer cape. If I didn't find that one and had to choose sleeveless I would have worn a shrug or shawl over it. 

 

Sleeveless seems to be the thing now in women's fashion for all occasions (dressy, professional, and casual). If you don't like it too bad, apparently. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Bootsie]

Much of what has been marketed in recent years as women's business attire has been sleeveless and jackets that look like they shrunk 4 sizes.  

[Matryoshka]

I have old lady arms. It's not just professional attire. I just went looking yesterday for a dress for my cousin's wedding next month. All of the dresses are were either sleeveless or long sleeved. No way am I wearing long sleeves in Florida in August (yes, not even with A/C). I finally found one with a sort of attached sheer cape. If I didn't find that one and had to choose sleeveless I would have worn a shrug or shawl over it. 

 

Sleeveless seems to be the thing now in women's fashion for all occasions (dressy, professional, and casual). If you don't like it too bad, apparently. 

 

Exactly.  And a shawl to 'fix'  the problem is not professional, I'm sorry.  Makes you look like you're at a fancy party (fine if you're at a fancy party, but neither congress nor the office is a fancy party) or are an old lady in need of a rocking chair (depending on the type of shawl).  But no, 'throwing a shawl' over it, all burka-like, is not the answer to the sleeveless dress problem for professional women.

 

Not a particularly answer to the problem for fancy parties, either, imho.  Shawls/wraps are a PITA to manage.

[marbel]

Nope, sorry.

 

I *might* have been that superficial and stupid when I was an older teen/young twenty something. But I'm way too old and have dealt with way too many professionals now to be influenced by dress Neat/clean/tidy--yes, that matters. But whether the person is wearing a suit or a polo or a sleeveless blouse -- irrelevant.

 

A bit harsh, don't you think?  I mean, stupid, really?

 

Much of this is cultural conditioning. To me, professional means suit.   In my working days I was pretty lowly, but when we met with clients we wore suits. (This was in the mid-90s.)   Same when I did training for other employees.  ETA: I should add that I worked in the office, not in an engineering lab or in manufacturing, etc.

 

A few years ago I had to meet with an attorney to settle a difficult issue with an estate.  I received a recommendation for a top-notch lawyer. She and I spoke on the phone and corresponded by email several times before we met in person.   The practice website had photos of the staff, all in suits.  The office was very professional in tone. The receptionist and the assistant who showed me into the conference room were in suits. Then the attorney came in, dressed in a sleeveless, flower print dress and strappy sandals. For a second I was taken aback.  She was so out of character with the rest of the office.  Like she'd breezed in to meet me on the way to a garden party. 

 

As far as I know, she did her job competently.  I didn't complain about her clothing, or demand to see a different lawyer who was more professionally dressed. But, it was jarring.   When I think about it now, it's still surprising to me. 

 

Some situations and venues call for more decorum than others.  Congress, the White House, a law office, a church* call for a certain decorum in dress.

 

*Re: church:  I don't mean for the people in the congregation.  I'm talking about pastors/leadership only. 

 

Just my opinion, obviously.  And just a little rankled at the characterization of shallow and stupid. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by marbel

[regentrude]

Much of this is cultural conditioning.

 

All of it is cultural conditioning.

 

Working in academia and interacting with genius level scientists who wear T-shirts and sandals makes it clear very quickly that there is absolutely no correlation between attire and competence. As does encountering incompetent administrators who wear suits.

[Butter]

Polo shirts can be professional.

 

Crocs never are.

[regentrude]

Polo shirts can be professional.

 

Crocs never are.

 

Surgeons wear them. Does that make them unprofessional?

[Butter]

Surgeons wear them. Does that make them unprofessional?

 

No.  They are a decent choice for a surgeon because they are easily cleaned/sterilized.

 

Also, surgeons wear scrubs.  In a typical non-medical setting, scrubs would be *far* from professional.

[Lady Florida.]

 

Working in academia and interacting with genius level scientists who wear T-shirts and sandals makes it clear very quickly that there is absolutely no correlation between attire and competence. As does encountering incompetent administrators who wear suits.

 

I've been watching a lot of British documentaries lately. Many of the academics in these documentaries, either the presenter or people who are consulted for their expertise, are heavily tattooed. I'm sure in the U.S. people would complain about how unprofessional that is, or that they should wear clothing that covers the tattoos. The British seem to recognize the person's knowledge, not if or how many tattoos they have. Americans are too caught up with outward appearances (and yes I realize I used as an example a country where certain people in law and politics still wear pretend powdered wigs. ;) ).

Edited July 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[AmandaVT]

Ann Taylor's suit page has almost exclusively sleeveless shells to go with the skirt/pant and jacket. I see nothing even remotely unprofessional about that.

 

https://www.anntaylor.com/suits/cata000013/?SortByFacetSelectedValue=remove&DocSortOrder=remove&goToPage=3&N=0&categoryType=regular&question=

 

The Talbots "Work Shop" also has a mix of sleeveless and short sleeve tops

 

https://www.talbots.com/online/womens/work-shop/_/N-4294966578+4158043964

 

I don't think anyone can argue that Ann Taylor and Talbots aren't conservative enough for almost any profession.

 

I have no issue if men want to wear sleeveless too. 

[marbel]

Surgeons wear them. Does that make them unprofessional?

 

Oh come on. The crocs reference was about congress, not an operating room. 

 

Does it really need to be said that not all professions require the same professional attire?

[Lady Florida.]

Ann Taylor's suit page has almost exclusively sleeveless shells to go with the skirt/pant and jacket. I see nothing even remotely unprofessional about that.

 

https://www.anntaylor.com/suits/cata000013/?SortByFacetSelectedValue=remove&DocSortOrder=remove&goToPage=3&N=0&categoryType=regular&question=

 

The Talbots "Work Shop" also has a mix of sleeveless and short sleeve tops

 

https://www.talbots.com/online/womens/work-shop/_/N-4294966578+4158043964

 

I don't think anyone can argue that Ann Taylor and Talbots aren't conservative enough for almost any profession.

 

I have no issue if men want to wear sleeveless too. 

 

When I was looking for the above mentioned dress for a wedding, I noticed several racks of sleeveless dresses labeled "professional". I was at Macy's.

[Matryoshka]

Ann Taylor's suit page has almost exclusively sleeveless shells to go with the skirt/pant and jacket. I see nothing even remotely unprofessional about that.

 

https://www.anntaylor.com/suits/cata000013/?SortByFacetSelectedValue=remove&DocSortOrder=remove&goToPage=3&N=0&categoryType=regular&question=

 

The Talbots "Work Shop" also has a mix of sleeveless and short sleeve tops

 

https://www.talbots.com/online/womens/work-shop/_/N-4294966578+4158043964

 

I don't think anyone can argue that Ann Taylor and Talbots aren't conservative enough for almost any profession.

 

I have no issue if men want to wear sleeveless too. 

 

Yes.  This.  Seriously, those of you who are arguing for 'sleeveless isn't professional', please link the websites for the professional clothing stores that sell these mythical unicorn clothes with sleeves for professional women.  I want to see a selection for different sizes and body types, not one shirt, dress, or jacket.  Really.  I need to see this. I hate shopping, and I would love some nice, tailored dresses that do not show off my fat arms.  If Ann Taylor and Talbots aren't places professional women are supposed to shop, where are they supposed to go??

 

Also, let's not even touch the fact that men can wear the same suit every day for years and no one will bat an eye (a news anchor tried this as an experiment - he really wore the same suit for a year straight, on camera, and no one noticed till he announced he'd done it), but a woman needs a new outfit every day.  So yeah, we need a selection, not just one outfit with sleeves.

[MommyLiberty5013]

May I ask why you feel this way?  I don't really understand.  What is it about arms that is inappropriate for a professional setting?  What is so different between a professional dress with short sleeves or sleeveless?

 

Also to clarify, I know many men who wear suits, but remove their jackets.  They either have short sleeves or long sleeves, which is fine. Arms in general aren't an issue of professionalism, either with men or women.  When I say suits, I'm not necessarily thinking they have to wear the jacket all the time in order to be professional.  

 

Yes, you may. And as an aside, I appreciate your kind/polite tone...others might take some cues from you!

 

It is not about actual arms or legs for me. I did write in a PP about a grey Ann Taylor suit I owned in my finance days that was actually a sleeveless dress with a jacket. I am okay with sleeveless outfits. I am fine with men in short sleeve dress shirts. Ann Taylor and Talbot's, or places like them, will always sell shells to go under suits for women. It is very normal.

 

I do believe that some places are just special and deserve to be set apart. Congress - and I mean the actual Senate and House floors - is one of those places. I think people should just be different there and set a different decorum than what occurs everywhere else in every other intersection of society. I feel that way about religious places too.

 

While arms are not bad and neither are sleeveless tops or dresses, I like to see people dressing conservatively or in other terms, hiding their skin, because it takes them out of the equation more and it makes it about the business, the words, the reports, and the ideas. I like people to be uniform in these places and letting these places be about the work, not about the individuals' as much.

 

But, yes because I am quite sure someone will effort to take this out of context...I applaud individuals too...I just think sometimes the team needs to be "the team" and send a unified visual message at places like the Floors of Congress.

 

In HS, I actually had the chance to sit in the Senate - down front (BTW, most comfy chair I have ever been in) - when they were not in session for a presentation. The whole room demands something extra of each of us. It just does. Maybe it is emotional for me. It is hallowed. These chambers are what others in the world DIE to get - think North Korea citizens (I just watched a video by a young woman who got out and tells about the regime there). I feel very sensitive to honor those places and to me, that is with the highest level of professional dress for both men and women.

 

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

A bit harsh, don't you think?  I mean, stupid, really?

 

Much of this is cultural conditioning. To me, professional means suit.   In my working days I was pretty lowly, but when we met with clients we wore suits. (This was in the mid-90s.)   Same when I did training for other employees.  ETA: I should add that I worked in the office, not in an engineering lab or in manufacturing, etc.

 

A few years ago I had to meet with an attorney to settle a difficult issue with an estate.  I received a recommendation for a top-notch lawyer. She and I spoke on the phone and corresponded by email several times before we met in person.   The practice website had photos of the staff, all in suits.  The office was very professional in tone. The receptionist and the assistant who showed me into the conference room were in suits. Then the attorney came in, dressed in a sleeveless, flower print dress and strappy sandals. For a second I was taken aback.  She was so out of character with the rest of the office.  Like she'd breezed in to meet me on the way to a garden party. 

 

As far as I know, she did her job competently.  I didn't complain about her clothing, or demand to see a different lawyer who was more professionally dressed. But, it was jarring.   When I think about it now, it's still surprising to me. 

 

Some situations and venues call for more decorum than others.  Congress, the White House, a law office, a church* call for a certain decorum in dress.

 

*Re: church:  I don't mean for the people in the congregation.  I'm talking about pastors/leadership only. 

 

Just my opinion, obviously.  And just a little rankled at the characterization of shallow and stupid. 

 

No, I don't think it's too harsh. I do think it's truthful.

 

I worked in the legal profession for years. I know a suit or sleeves on a dress have absolutely no correlation with competence or professionalism. Last year I dealt with two attorneys on a real estate matter. One wore khakis and a polo and one wore a suit. Both did their job well.

[HomeAgain]

Unless we're advocating for uniforms going into a government building, then we have to respect the individuality that the current dress code assumes.

[Bootsie]

Many law offices and banks in the US are temperature controlled so that they are comfortable for men wearing long sleeved shirts, ties, and jackets.  One of the reasons I find sleeveless outfits for women uncomfortable in a professional setting is that  I end up cold.  Often the armholes in the sleeveless shirts are large, leading to bras and bra straps showing, which I find unprofessional.  I have found it increasingly difficult to find women's business attire with sleeves (even winter dresses).  A skirt, blouse with sleeves, and jacket is a solution--but then finding a skirt long enough is another issue.  (or pants that aren't too tight through the hips and thighs).  

 

I also don't understand the long sleeve blouses with a three-quarter length or short sleeved jacket look...

[Guest]

I could not care less. I have opinions about who introduced the idea that women's work dresses that are sleeveless aren't professional, but...

 

Couldn't care less in any direction.

 

Also, sleeveless on women == informal? Since when. Haven't y'all seen ball gowns and wedding dresses and power dresses? Is that what you all wear to the ballpark cause it's super caz?

 

https://poshmark.com/listing/Calvin-Klein-Sleeveless-Seamed-Sheath-Dress-57c3477b56b2d6ace600cb2b?utm_source=gdm&gdm_bottom=false&campaign_id=729062531&utm_campaign=729062531&enable_guest_buy_flow=true&gclid=Cj0KEQjw-qbLBRD79JWsjuXI784BEiQAftBCI8E0Q1n542eYi326JeYk18ZV3NPunJzmBYpDiTfZ96gaAnLS8P8HAQ

[goldberry]

Also, sleeveless on women == informal? Since when.

 

I guess this is part of what I don't understand, because the dress is what makes if formal or professional, not the sleeves per se.  There are dresses with sleeves that are very casual, and dresses without sleeves that are very formal or professional.  

 

I never automatically associated sleeveless with more casual, but several people here have that connection.  

[Daria]

To me there are two different issue here.  One is whether a sleeveless dress or a pair of crocs is unprofessional.  I don’t have much of an opinion on that topic. 

 

But the other issue is the way we police women’s clothing.  The rule that this reporter broke was both unwritten, and inconsistently enforced.  A young male journalist who finds himself assigned Washington, D.C. can watch C-Span for 30 seconds, ask any random person on the street, or simply walk into the men’s department and say “I need to go to Congress tomorrow, what should I wear?†and I can guarantee he’ll end up with an outfit that passes muster.  In addition, he’ll be able to wear that same outfit when he goes to the State Department, or the White House press room, or when he meets a source for coffee at Starbucks.  Chances are that he won't even have to pay for this outfit, because he'll have one hanging in his closet.

 

On the other hand, a young female reporter who is preparing to work in the U.S. Capitol could read every written rule, watch a ton of C-Span (including coverage of the President's immediate family), investigate to see what her female colleagues are wearing, and then go to the professional section of a well known store to choose her clothing, and still be prevented from doing her job because some man has decided that her clothing is “unprofessionalâ€.   

 

[goldberry]

I do believe that some places are just special and deserve to be set apart. Congress - and I mean the actual Senate and House floors - is one of those places. I think people should just be different there and set a different decorum than what occurs everywhere else in every other intersection of society. I feel that way about religious places too.

 

While arms are not bad and neither are sleeveless tops or dresses, I like to see people dressing conservatively or in other terms, hiding their skin, because it takes them out of the equation more and it makes it about the business, the words, the reports, and the ideas. I like people to be uniform in these places and letting these places be about the work, not about the individuals' as much.

 

But, yes because I am quite sure someone will effort to take this out of context...I applaud individuals too...I just think sometimes the team needs to be "the team" and send a unified visual message at places like the Floors of Congress.

 

 

I relate to that a bit as I am not a fan of overly casual clothes at church.  I couldn't say why definitively, and there are definitely valid arguments for why not (making more people feel welcome, etc) but it just doesn't seem as respectful to me.  I absolutely see why others might feel otherwise, but I would not be comfortable dressed that way for religious services.

 

Again though, I have a hard time seeing sleeveless in that category.  Sleeveless to me can be casual or formal, either one.  Thanks for your response!

[MercyA]

I'm probably weird, but underarms have always seemed a little private to me. I don't really like sleeveless garments on men or on women. Don't ask me to explain it.  :)

 

Also, some women's sleeveless tops expose undergarments and/or the sides of breasts. Not professional, IMHO.

[Daria]

 

I do believe that some places are just special and deserve to be set apart. Congress - and I mean the actual Senate and House floors - is one of those places. I think people should just be different there and set a different decorum than what occurs everywhere else in every other intersection of society. I feel that way about religious places too.

 

. . .

 

In HS, I actually had the chance to sit in the Senate - down front (BTW, most comfy chair I have ever been in) - when they were not in session for a presentation. The whole room demands something extra of each of us. It just does. Maybe it is emotional for me. It is hallowed. These chambers are what others in the world DIE to get - think North Korea citizens (I just watched a video by a young woman who got out and tells about the regime there). I feel very sensitive to honor those places and to me, that is with the highest level of professional dress for both men and women.

 

It is a special place, but it's also very much a place where important business is conducted, and it's important to keep that in the front of people's minds.

 

There are thousands of people in Washington who go to work each morning and could conceivably be called to the Senate floor.  Maybe they're a college student interning in some office who is asked to run an errand.  Maybe they're a specialist working behind the scenes on a specific issue who might be called by a Senator or Congressman to answer a question.  Maybe they're a journalist with expertise in a specific issue who gets called in to cover an unexpected speech on the floor.  

 

Should the women in these categories be expected to purchase new wardrobes, so that they're always ready to go on the House and Senate floors?  Should they expect the business of Congress to wait while they change?  Should they send their male colleagues in their place?  

 

The reality is that politics is a fast paced business.  Being 5 minutes late to deliver a piece of paper because you were changing clothing; or missing one quote because you were grabbing a wrap; or missing the opportunity for a face to face moment with your Senator because you dressed for the Cabinet room or the briefing room at State on the wrong day, all these things can impact someone's career.  But expecting women to spend a lot of money to avoid these things by replacing clothing that had been allowed in the past doesn't seem like a fair solution.

[Caroline]

My dad spent 35 years working for the USDA in DC. The dress policy was suit and tie Labor Day to Memorial Day, and shirtsleeves Memorial Day to Labor Day. UNLESS you were testifying before Congress. Then it was suit and tie no matter what time of year. A couple of times my dad ran to Garfinkles for a suit and tie on his way to the Hill to testify. He testified with.basting threads for hems and then dropped off the suit on the way back for them to finish tailoring. My dad is an economist and an expert on farm labor and its ties to immigration. Usually his boss (political appointee) would do the testifying, but when he got in over his head, he would call dad. (There were several versions of the boss, as you can imagine, since my dad worked from Johnson to Bush 43.)

 

I don't think sleeveless dresses are unprofessional. I wear them to work, as do several of my colleagues. I do own a large collection of cardigans, with varying sleeve lengths and designs, but we go back to school here in July. It's hot. Some days the cardigan comes off. I have never had a parent or administrator complain. And believe me, parents and admin do complain about teachers' clothing.

[Guest]

I'm probably weird, but underarms have always seemed a little private to me. I don't really like sleeveless garments on men or on women. Don't ask me to explain it. :)

 

Also, some women's sleeveless tops expose undergarments and/or the sides of breasts. Not professional, IMHO.

Boob/panties exposure probably has their own rules already.

[Farrar]

I think he needs to update the rules in some fashion because they have been unclear to date. "Professional" isn't a dress code. It's an invitation to uneven enforcement. 

 

I honestly don't have a strong opinion about what should be done about them though. I am generally in favor of more casual business attire "counting" as professional.

 

I don't feel the dress code is sexist per se, but I do think that it's for women that "professional" is the least defined and there are the widest array of style choices. To be professional, Men can be in suits and ties, or - step down slightly - in dress shirts and khakis, or - down again - polos and khakis. And there are choices within each "level" of dress, but each thing is a pretty well defined set of options. For women, it's such a free for all - skirts, shirts, pants, suits, dresses - even the fabric choices are all over the place. Sleeves or not, different cuts, lengths... and what looks professional to one person doesn't to another... Asking men to "dress professionally" and then making it clear they mean suit and tie, okay. Asking women to "dress professionally" and then... what? Only "suits" allowed. But what kind? Some have sleeveless tops with a jacket. Is that allowed? Does that mean the first lady wouldn't be able to wear a very nice dress? That doesn't seem right. And... so on. So I think it's opening a difficult can of worms for Ryan. 

[unsinkable]

I'm probably weird, but underarms have always seemed a little private to me. I don't really like sleeveless garments on men or on women. Don't ask me to explain it. :)

 

Also, some women's sleeveless tops expose undergarments and/or the sides of breasts. Not professional, IMHO.

I hate wearing sleeveless bc then I have to braid my hair.

[Bluegoat]

Well, the opinion piece referenced in the OP is a little silly.  It's possible to update one or a few things without people appearing in congress in crocks. FWIW, I think women's professional dress can include certain sleeveless blouses.  I also don't care  if men's and women's conventions aren't identical.

 

As far as professional dress - I think there are reasons for it, but in this case, I think the issue goes beyond being professional  -  I think public officials wear special or more formal clothes because they are taking on a special role.  Lawyers and judges here wear robes, for example, in court.  It isn't because somehow this makes them smarter or better.  But it is a reminder, to themselves and the public, that they are no longer acting simply as private individuals.  They are working in the interests of justice, for some higher good, and to some extent they are being asked to leave self behind. 

 

While some would like to believe that symbols of institutions or ideals may be meaningless,  and perhaps in some sort of ideal world they would, I think human nature is such that we require reminders and physical manifestations of principles.

 

In the case of members of the government engaged in the work of government, there are any number of traditions and symbols intended to remind of the importance and gravity of that work for all of us.  Getting dressed in a more formal way is one for each individual member.

[Bluegoat]

I could not care less. I have opinions about who introduced the idea that women's work dresses that are sleeveless aren't professional, but...

 

Couldn't care less in any direction.

 

Also, sleeveless on women == informal? Since when. Haven't y'all seen ball gowns and wedding dresses and power dresses? Is that what you all wear to the ballpark cause it's super caz?

 

https://poshmark.com/listing/Calvin-Klein-Sleeveless-Seamed-Sheath-Dress-57c3477b56b2d6ace600cb2b?utm_source=gdm&gdm_bottom=false&campaign_id=729062531&utm_campaign=729062531&enable_guest_buy_flow=true&gclid=Cj0KEQjw-qbLBRD79JWsjuXI784BEiQAftBCI8E0Q1n542eYi326JeYk18ZV3NPunJzmBYpDiTfZ96gaAnLS8P8HAQ

 

Well, I think sleeveless is professional if it's professional clothes.

 

But I think when people talk about it in terms of formality, they are probably just using the wrong word - what they mean is more like mode of dress.

[Bluegoat]

I think he needs to update the rules in some fashion because they have been unclear to date. "Professional" isn't a dress code. It's an invitation to uneven enforcement. 

 

I honestly don't have a strong opinion about what should be done about them though. I am generally in favor of more casual business attire "counting" as professional.

 

I don't feel the dress code is sexist per se, but I do think that it's for women that "professional" is the least defined and there are the widest array of style choices. To be professional, Men can be in suits and ties, or - step down slightly - in dress shirts and khakis, or - down again - polos and khakis. And there are choices within each "level" of dress, but each thing is a pretty well defined set of options. For women, it's such a free for all - skirts, shirts, pants, suits, dresses - even the fabric choices are all over the place. Sleeves or not, different cuts, lengths... and what looks professional to one person doesn't to another... Asking men to "dress professionally" and then making it clear they mean suit and tie, okay. Asking women to "dress professionally" and then... what? Only "suits" allowed. But what kind? Some have sleeveless tops with a jacket. Is that allowed? Does that mean the first lady wouldn't be able to wear a very nice dress? That doesn't seem right. And... so on. So I think it's opening a difficult can of worms for Ryan. 

 

I agree, women's dress is less clear.

I suspect some people think of that as an advantage.

 

I'm not sure I'd want to be the person asked to tighten it up.

[Daria]

Well, the opinion piece referenced in the OP is a little silly.  It's possible to update one or a few things without people appearing in congress in crocks. FWIW, I think women's professional dress can include certain sleeveless blouses.  I also don't care  if men's and women's conventions aren't identical.

 

As far as professional dress - I think there are reasons for it, but in this case, I think the issue goes beyond being professional  -  I think public officials wear special or more formal clothes because they are taking on a special role.  Lawyers and judges here wear robes, for example, in court.  It isn't because somehow this makes them smarter or better.  But it is a reminder, to themselves and the public, that they are no longer acting simply as private individuals.  They are working in the interests of justice, for some higher good, and to some extent they are being asked to leave self behind. 

 

While some would like to believe that symbols of institutions or ideals may be meaningless,  and perhaps in some sort of ideal world they would, I think human nature is such that we require reminders and physical manifestations of principles.

 

In the case of members of the government engaged in the work of government, there are any number of traditions and symbols intended to remind of the importance and gravity of that work for all of us.  Getting dressed in a more formal way is one for each individual member.

 

But in the U.S. male politicians and the men who work with and for them and around them don't wear clothes that are special or more formal.  They wear the same suits and ties that many many other men wear to work.