Are we falling behind in Math and Science

[Murphy101]

I'm talking high school. And they aren't there 8 hours a day. 6 hours a day of class, max. And then there are all the days that they have pep rallies and other special events. I have a high schooler, and I'm subbing at the school. He has very little work most nights.

This can vary a lot. There's many high schoolers leaving home for school at 6:30/7am and not getting home until 3:30/4. Now I'll agree that's not all desk time, but it is all time spent trying to get an education. To many families, that should be more than enough. They get home at 5-6, maybe if they are lucky, and they go straight to whatever extracurricular or church or other outside the house commitment and they get home at 9-10. And somehow need to get food. Sleep. And family time.

 

Yes it's not the worst life and they can choose to restrict their commitments so they can commit even more time to schooling, but I don't think it's bc they don't care about education that they don't do that.

 

It's not like I stop wanting to see my kids when they start high school. It's not like high school kids don't need to focus on making family and community connections. Or get jobs. Or pursue personal interests and hobbies.

[poppy]

In many of those countries SN children literally don't get to live and if they do, it's a life of neglect and abuse horror.

 

And several have a high suicide rate in very young people. Being the only child and not getting an A isn't just a minor disappointment. It's a shame to the entire family and community and the poor kid knows it. Pressure to succeed is an understatement.

 

While I can agree no academic expectations of students is not good, let us not hold up the other end of the extreme as better either.

 

Happy medium between the extremes would be quite welcome though.

 

I don't think it's a bad thing at all.  I like my kids' life. 

 

My only point was that in the US most adult think math is "crap" but also gets mad that so many skilled jobs go to H1B visa holders.  You really can't have it both ways with a global economy.

[LucyStoner]

My older son is headed to a STEM high school that is attractive enough that families move here from out of state to get a spot.  Here's the thing though- of the 400 or so students who go through an application process and are deemed qualified, there are only spots for about 1/4 of them.  My son got lucky and he's in, but it was more likely than not that he wouldn't get a spot.  My niece applied last year and didn't get a spot.  She's now at a regular public high school where the counselors think she's doing really well merely because she's not failing everything.  Both of these schools are public schools.  

 

There should be enough spots for students to attend great schools that appeal to them.  Not just STEM but other quality programs as well.

 

[Amy in NH]

Didn't read the whole thread, don't have time to look up citations.

 

Here are some broad generalizations for you:

 

American school culture is focused on after-school sports.  Youth suicide is related to social pressure.

 

Asian school culture is focused on after-school tutoring and academic drilling.  Youth suicide is related to academic pressure.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Amy in NH

[Carrie12345]

I'm always so torn, because I understand the economic and political impacts, but I have zero interest in pushing my kids down roads that don't excite them (assuming they have or are looking for a road that does.)

 

My oldest has a terrifically mathematic brain.  I saw engineer or physicist or other such valued areas in his future.  He prefers to pursue music.

 

My teenage daughters have been immersed in science practically from birth.  Getting them to focus on the more academic and traditionally tested aspects of nearly any branch of science (home and/or outsourced) isn't just frustrating for me, but steals from their desire to participate in the aspects they love.   I watch them pull away every time. So maybe I'll have a park ranger and arson investigator instead of cancer researcher and climate change solver.

 

I don't know how to reconcile my concern for national interests and my responsibility for individual children.

[Lady Florida.]

Welcome to the forum, ThomasTigerino. :)

 

When I quoted your post, I got all sorts of extra coding. Have you posted the same message at other forums and just copied and pasted it here? If so, I just wanted to let you know that when you're here, you can simply type your message and click to post it -- no extra effort is necessary. :)

 

Do you homeschool your children, or are you working on some sort of assignment where you have to write a paper about math and science education in the United States?

 

I wondered why it took so long for someone to ask these questions. That was my first thought, even before clicking on the link (which only took me to a Forbes article though). Anyway, thank you for bringing  this up Catwoman. :)

 

But since we're already having the conversation -

 

A simple web search shoots down the idea that Silicon Valley workers are all or even mostly from outside the U.S.

http://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-hiring-most-popular-universities-2015-7/#university-of-washington-16

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2013/12/17/the-top-10-colleges-that-fuel-the.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/05/23/tech_company_feeder_schools_stanford_to_google_washington_to_microsoft_sjsu.html

http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/15/the-silicon-valley-b-school-elite/

 

As for Common Core, while it isn't perfect it actually improves on the ways math has been taught. Many who were not taught using CC methods find it confusing and messy, but it's actually closer to how people think and how people "do math". If I had been taught this way I believe I would have been better at math and would not have had to relearn so much as an adult. When I used these methods on ds, I could see the wheels turning in his brain and everything falling into place. The complaints about U.S. children being behind in math have been around for decades, since Sputnik as a pp said - and as someone who grew up during the Cold War I agree. The way we were teaching math was not working well, and entire generations grew up hating math and thinking they were terrible at it. 

 

Common Core Math is Not the Enemy

Edited March 25, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Dmmetler]

It'd be awesome if people who didn't understand math stopped TEACHING math. LOL.

FWIW. My DD is taking a math for elementary teachers course now, and it is all about understanding and learning how to communicate that understanding in math to kids. Which, yes, means that college students have to draw models and write out in words how to solve problems. This is a mandatory class-even kids who place into calculus or higher still have to take it if they want a teaching license. I admit, I thought it was kind of a joke when it started-like they didn't expect college students to be able to add and subtract, but I now see the rationale behind doing it this way, and in some ways, I suspect it benefits the strong math students more than the weaker ones. She's doing the equivalent course for middle school teachers in the fall.

[LucyStoner]

One of the complaints some students and parents have about the school my son is headed to is that they don't have sports or PE classes (the school has no field and no gym) and to obtain the 1.5 PE credits needed to graduate students have to complete that as a contract. I.E.: do a sport elsewhere or homeschool PE (for example, keep a log of hours spent running or biking or doing yoga or whatever).  Coming from homeschooling, this doesn't phase us.  Frankly, my son is only too happy to be able to do his PE credits at home.  And students who are athletically inclined can (and do) play club sports or even play for the school team at their local school.  We are more concerned that they don't have many visual arts options, so he's decided to take a visual arts class on Friday nights at a local art school instead.  It does strike me though that even at a school that spells out a high level of parental involvement has some parents who kvetch about having to sign off of their kids' PE credits.  

 

I don't think that specializing a bit is a bad thing.

[FaithManor]

So true.

 

I think that having math specialists rotate between elementary classrooms to teach math would be good.

Totally on board with this idea. We had a math specialist in our Lutheran K-8. The woman as amazing. She taught math every day in each class 3-8th grades. The kids really began achieving. Our lowest performing students ended up ahead of their PS peers, and I know it was because they had someone who embraced the subject with enthusiasm, creativity, and a long term plan of where they needed to by high school.

[LucyStoner]

FWIW. My DD is taking a math for elementary teachers course now, and it is all about understanding and learning how to communicate that understanding in math to kids. Which, yes, means that college students have to draw models and write out in words how to solve problems. This is a mandatory class-even kids who place into calculus or higher still have to take it if they want a teaching license. I admit, I thought it was kind of a joke when it started-like they didn't expect college students to be able to add and subtract, but I now see the rationale behind doing it this way, and in some ways, I suspect it benefits the strong math students more than the weaker ones. She's doing the equivalent course for middle school teachers in the fall.

 

I dunno.  When I was living in a dorm at a school where there were a lot of elementary ed majors, I was helping women who had failed that class.  Some had failed it more than once. And at least at that school, it wasn't so much a how to teach math class as a class with elementary school math. It wasn't because they were good at math and needed to learn to communicate about it.  Usually, it was because they hated math and couldn't understand fractions very well.  That was the first nudge I got towards being open to homeschooling.  In our system, kids spend their first 6-7 years of education often being taught math by people who have a strong distaste for math.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I loved my "how to teach elementary math" class that I took over 30 years ago.  That class actually taught me some of the theory I had begged teachers to teach me in school instead of just giving me an algorithm and telling me to follow it.   

[FaithManor]

I'm talking high school. And they aren't there 8 hours a day. 6 hours a day of class, max. And then there are all the days that they have pep rallies and other special events. I have a high schooler, and I'm subbing at the school. He has very little work most nights.

That would be regional.

 

Locally, all the college bound students have to take zero hour in order to take an AP due to funding cutbacks, and since most need scholarships, they take zero hour. That means school begins at 7 a.m. they get 30 minutes for lunch and school ends at 3:15. So that is an 8 hrs 15 min. day with 30 minute lunch and 5 min. between each class so easily a 7 hrs us day. Additionally, they average two hours per day of homework and usually with AP or DE that means studying and assignments for the weekend too.

[LucyStoner]

That would be regional.

 

Locally, all the college bound students have to take zero hour in order to take an AP due to funding cutbacks, and since most need scholarships, they take zero hour. That means school begins at 7 a.m. they get 30 minutes for lunch and school ends at 3:15. So that is an 8 hrs 15 min. day with 30 minute lunch and 5 min. between each class so easily a 7 hrs us day. Additionally, they average two hours per day of homework and usually with AP or DE that means studying and assignments for the weekend too.

 

At my son's school, zero hour starts at 8 and they get out at 3:30 unless they don't take 6th period.  We've been advised to count on that being 4:30 with after school clubs and that the club he wants to take the most is two nights a week from 6:30-8.  So yeah, I am thinking of it as a FT job in terms of hours for him.  It's what he wants and he's choosing it for himself.  

[Faithful_Steward]

We have large numbers of students who are taught that science is wrong.

 

 

How can we possibly compete when we don't offer science as a class that is focused on finding out more about our world through tests and observation and not try to pigeonhole all of that information into fitting within an interpretation of an ancient text?

 

It is not surprising that America is falling behind. They're less likely to believe in science because of religious views than the rest of those countries in that list. That may be unpopular to say on a homeschool board where curricula/books are used that proclaim dinosaurs were vegetarian before the fall or that plants existed before the sun or that electricity is a mystery and we just don't know how it works.

 

When we forego science, we don't get to apply math outside of math class, because faith is more important than discovering how the world works.

 

 

 

 

 

That's why. And it's no different in public schools. My kid's school is required to teach creationism as a valid scientific theory (???) during biology class. There is no process of testing. It is simply believing. We are robbing kids on a daily basis of the chance to get into science because we just want them to regurgitate what we give them.

Seriously?

[Guest]

For one, we could stop thinking of education as simply a means for our children to someday score high-paying jobs with video game companies. :glare:

 

I know two guys in my parish who make a quite decent living at gaming companies.  With ART majors.  Not endless hours of gaming, but actual college degrees.  In ART.  

 

:0)

[Guest]

I dunno.  When I was living in a dorm at a school where there were a lot of elementary ed majors, I was helping women who had failed that class.  Some had failed it more than once. And at least at that school, it wasn't so much a how to teach math class as a class with elementary school math. It wasn't because they were good at math and needed to learn to communicate about it.  Usually, it was because they hated math and couldn't understand fractions very well.  That was the first nudge I got towards being open to homeschooling.  In our system, kids spend their first 6-7 years of education often being taught math by people who have a strong distaste for math.  

 

Maps to my experience, too.  It's not all that different at the high school level, where I taught...but it has gotten worse in that teachers used to get secondary school jobs based on the subject matter major--math, science, English degrees.  Now, in many states, my former state included, they get majors in Education.  It's bass-ackwards.  

[LucyStoner]

Maps to my experience, too.  It's not all that different at the high school level, where I taught...but it has gotten worse in that teachers used to get secondary school jobs based on the subject matter major--math, science, English degrees.  Now, in many states, my former state included, they get majors in Education.  It's bass-ackwards.  

 

Here though middle and high school teachers get an undergrad in a subject and then a master's in education.  My friends who taught high school all have undergrad degrees in what they taught and a master's.  That said, at last count in my peer group of friends who started as teachers 10+ years ago, only one is still in education, and as of last year, ZERO are still in the classroom.  The loss of teachers to burnout, low compensation, and other fields is a challenge.  I have friends who are teachers, but these are people I met after college and who are older than me. I assume some may go back to teaching at some point, as some became stay at home parents.  But many ran out of the building as fast as they could.  It wasn't the students; it was the politics and other factors.  

[Dmmetler]

I dunno. When I was living in a dorm at a school where there were a lot of elementary ed majors, I was helping women who had failed that class. Some had failed it more than once. And at least at that school, it wasn't so much a how to teach math class as a class with elementary school math. It wasn't because they were good at math and needed to learn to communicate about it. Usually, it was because they hated math and couldn't understand fractions very well. That was the first nudge I got towards being open to homeschooling. In our system, kids spend their first 6-7 years of education often being taught math by people who have a strong distaste for math.

There is a separate, companion non-credit class for people who are weak in math skills, so (for example), when the main class was working on learning how to teach addition using different methods and models, the support class was working on fractions. DD has ended up helping some of her classmates with support class assignments :).

[Guest]

Here though middle and high school teachers get an undergrad in a subject and then a master's in education.  My friends who taught high school all have undergrad degrees in what they taught and a master's.  That said, at last count in my peer group of friends who started as teachers 10+ years ago, only one is still in education, and as of last year, ZERO are still in the classroom.  The loss of teachers to burnout, low compensation, and other fields is a challenge.  I have friends who are teachers, but these are people I met after college and who are older than me. I assume some may go back to teaching at some point, as some became stay at home parents.  But many ran out of the building as fast as they could.  It wasn't the students; it was the politics and other factors.  

 

Other reasons for burnout--you have too many jobs to do.  Nurse, cop, social worker, etc.  And the big reason most people I know left was because there was so little freedom left to teach, both because of being busy with all the other jobs and the handing-down-from-Central Administration of a set of lesson plans that you had to use.  It's incredibly dissatisfying.  Hire a robot, buddy.

 

Another reason that I left was that some of the parents were unbelievable in their requests.  Eg. I caught a student cheating.  She got a zero on the test.  Her mom calls me, irate, and screams into the phone that I can't give her a zero for cheating...how else is she going to get the grades to get into college???????  Another mom wanted me to give her daughter allllll the work for the whole semester at the end of the year and a week to do it, because she hadn't done a single bit for the entire semester but now didn't want the F.  That kind of stuff.  

 

Ugh.  

[Word Nerd]

Outside of homescooling I've seen that Mike Rowe "welders make six figures" video and this guy's rant shared by many, many people.

 

 

Mike Rowe's mission to address the shortage of qualified welders, plumbers, and other blue collar workers in this country has nothing to do with an anti-math culture.

[LucyStoner]

Other reasons for burnout--you have too many jobs to do.  Nurse, cop, social worker, etc.  And the big reason most people I know left was because there was so little freedom left to teach, both because of being busy with all the other jobs and the handing-down-from-Central Administration of a set of lesson plans that you had to use.  It's incredibly dissatisfying.  Hire a robot, buddy.

 

Another reason that I left was that some of the parents were unbelievable in their requests.  Eg. I caught a student cheating.  She got a zero on the test.  Her mom calls me, irate, and screams into the phone that I can't give her a zero for cheating...how else is she going to get the grades to get into college???????  Another mom wanted me to give her daughter allllll the work for the whole semester at the end of the year and a week to do it, because she hadn't done a single bit for the entire semester but now didn't want the F.  That kind of stuff.  

 

Ugh.  

 

Yep.  Hire a robot indeed.  

 

I had a friend who taught three sections of "senior projects."  Meaning half her day was helping students choose and plan and execute their senior projects.  She was under so much pressure from parents, other teachers, and administrators to just pass the kids with the worst projects.  They could barely write, yet had As and Bs in their English classes.  The principal didn't want it highlighted to the district that kids who were getting As in English could not, even with substantial help, write a decent research paper.  When she flagged kids for clear plagiarism (as in, they downloaded the paper from a website) the administrators would pressure her not to make a "big deal" of it.  One parent HIT her over it.  She works as an account manager for a nationally known web company now.  Six figures and no one has assaulted her yet.  

[Murphy101]

Mike Rowe's mission to address the shortage of qualified welders, plumbers, and other blue collar workers in this country has nothing to do with an anti-math culture.

No it doesn't. I'm so tired of the implication that people who work with their hands or have blue collar jobs are uneducated.

 

The truth is they are often better at understanding math and science concepts than many a person who went to college.

[LucyStoner]

Mike Rowe's mission to address the shortage of qualified welders, plumbers, and other blue collar workers in this country has nothing to do with an anti-math culture.

And one of the main issues causing a shortage of welders, plumbers, and blue collar workers is, once again, that many prospective apprentices don't know how to do basic math.  They have a training program to enter the training program and the core curriculum is showing up and basic math.  

 

I know two young people who have trained as welders though and haven't found FT work in welding.  Both are working in light manufacturing at the same company.  One is in his early 20s and went to job corps after high school, and the other is in her late 20s and went to welding school after dropping out of college a decade ago.  The starting pay is $15-17/hr, but they have trouble getting and keeping people even with their minimal requirements. The requirements are show up, work and don't be high on the job but they are ALWAYS hiring because people don't want to do this.  The good news is that hard workers can climb the ladder pretty quickly and aren't just making $17 after a year or so.  

Edited March 25, 2017 by LucyStoner

[poppy]

Mike Rowe's mission to address the shortage of qualified welders, plumbers, and other blue collar workers in this country has nothing to do with an anti-math culture.

 

I have nothing against Mike Rowe, but I keep seeing his videos in homeschooling forums as a reason to  ditch formal academics.  College leads to unemployment anyway.

I don't know.  Maybe homeschoolers are a small enough subset it doesn't' matter. 

[Guest]

My ex-BIL is a welder on nuclear submarines. No college, just training. He makes $$$$.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Kinsa

[LucyStoner]

When we were looking at backup plans for my son for high school, we toured a STEM high school program in a different district than where my son will be going.  The evening started with a long sales pitch on the potential wages for STEM jobs.  I was underwhelmed because I have a kid whose first, second and third ideas of what he wants to do are all engineering and science related.  And his first, second and third ideas of what he wants to do would remain engineering and science related even if engineers could only expect the income levels of cloistered nuns.  I felt that I wanted a school for him that was teaching to his interests and talents and not merely to the idea of workforce development.  Not that there is anything wrong with workforce development, but there's so much more to education than that.  Fortunately, he gets to go to his first choice.  

[Murphy101]

I have nothing against Mike Rowe, but I keep seeing his videos in homeschooling forums as a reason to ditch formal academics. College leads to unemployment anyway.

I don't know. Maybe homeschoolers are a small enough subset it doesn't' matter.

Or maybe you are hanging with the wrong home schoolers. I've seen that attitude and I ALWAYS call bs on it.

 

Trades are not miraculous job guarantees either.

 

And trades does not mean uneducated. Or it shouldn't.

 

Personally I think we should veer more towards a combination of trades and college rather this false paradigm of having to choose one or the other.

[mommyoffive]

I'm talking high school. And they aren't there 8 hours a day. 6 hours a day of class, max. And then there are all the days that they have pep rallies and other special events. I have a high schooler, and I'm subbing at the school. He has very little work most nights.

 

A high schooler with very little work most nights?   Is that the norm?  IT sure was not when I was in school.  Hours every night.

[mommyoffive]

This can vary a lot. There's many high schoolers leaving home for school at 6:30/7am and not getting home until 3:30/4. Now I'll agree that's not all desk time, but it is all time spent trying to get an education. To many families, that should be more than enough. They get home at 5-6, maybe if they are lucky, and they go straight to whatever extracurricular or church or other outside the house commitment and they get home at 9-10. And somehow need to get food. Sleep. And family time.

 

Yes it's not the worst life and they can choose to restrict their commitments so they can commit even more time to schooling, but I don't think it's bc they don't care about education that they don't do that.

 

It's not like I stop wanting to see my kids when they start high school. It's not like high school kids don't need to focus on making family and community connections. Or get jobs. Or pursue personal interests and hobbies.

 

 

THis is what I know of the older PS kids we know.   Actually some of the Kingders wake up at 5 to get on the 1.5 hour bus ride to school.  Then the same thing on the way. 

 

 

The older high school kids have band before school than school than from there they drive to swim team (school work and eating on the way to an from. 

When they don't have band in the mornings they have swim practice. 

[mommyoffive]

Public schools that actually care about students learning math (or anything really), rather than just paying lip service to STEM, etc.

 

My dc are in a public distance charter this year. We have $1800 in funding for curricula available each. Dd(11) is in 6th grade. She finished her 7th grade math curriculum, plus their required common core workbook. She had 96-100% on all assignments and tests. I requested the next level math curriculum. She still has $1000 available, but was told she should spend the rest of the year (6 months) 'reviewing' and I shouldn't be 'tempted to push her ahead'. 😡She had the same problem when she was in ps. She was finished with her work, but told to sit there and 'review' or help someone with theirs. This was supposedly a highly rated school. In our experience, the schools don't really take math that seriously and don't care much about kids who could accelerate. And it's not just a problem in math. Bright kids in the ps spend a lot of time being bored.

 

 

Wow.  What state are you in?  We do the same kind of charter and haven't run into that.  

We haven't had to order new stuff yet so I wonder if we would. 

 

Has anyone else done a charter and had that kind of push back? 

[poppy]

Or maybe you are hanging with the wrong home schoolers. I've seen that attitude and I ALWAYS call bs on it.

 

Trades are not miraculous job guarantees either.

 

And trades does not mean uneducated. Or it shouldn't.

 

Personally I think we should veer more towards a combination of trades and college rather this false paradigm of having to choose one or the other.

I agree with you. I do not think the 'academics are waste of time ' parents are really know the work and savvy it takes to succeed .

[ThomasTigerino]

For one, we could stop thinking of education as simply a means for our children to someday score high-paying jobs with video game companies. :glare:

 

Thx for your reply Mergath. The video game thing is just one example unfortunately in a sea of thousands of outsourced jobs that would usually be in-house. 

[ScoutTN]

Welcome to the forum, ThomasTigerino. :)

 

When I quoted your post, I got all sorts of extra coding. Have you posted the same message at other forums and just copied and pasted it here? If so, I just wanted to let you know that when you're here, you can simply type your message and click to post it -- no extra effort is necessary. :)

 

Do you homeschool your children, or are you working on some sort of assignment where you have to write a paper about math and science education in the United States?

 

 

Troll?

[EMS83]

Amen!

The ridiculously long school day for young kids should have plenty of time to teach them all they can learn in a day. If school cannot manage to teach them in the eight hours they have the kids, that is the school's problem. Homework that is very often busywork with no clear pedagogical purpose is ineffective. (My kids attended ps for several years. Almost all of the homework was pure busywork)

 

I come from a country where kids have 3-4 hour of school in the elementary grades and are home by lunchtime. I have not see the long US school day produce superior results.

 

I love your country.  :D

 

I think this is probably a HUGE factor no one wants to consider because...reasons.   :confused1:

[Murphy101]

I love your country. :D

 

I think this is probably a HUGE factor no one wants to consider because...reasons. :confused1:

Same stupid reason we don't have universal healthcare.

 

Apparently it just wouldn't be the American way unless we paid 10x more in time and money for something every other country can manage better for less.

[FaithManor]

Same stupid reason we don't have universal healthcare.

 

Apparently it just wouldn't be the American way unless we paid 10x more in time and money for something every other country can manage better for less.

Yup this!

[Arcadia]

This topic has come up and been discussed so many times that I am lazy to repeat myself.

I would say the English language standard in schools are also behind which is sad for a country that is predominantly monolingual.

There is no equity in education here even for neurotypical kids. The disparity in resources between neighborhood schools is deplorable. It is literally a birthplace lottery.

 

I think this is probably a HUGE factor no one wants to consider because...reasons. :confused1:

Many areas in this country lacks good childcare for dual income families with no one nearby to help.

I come from a country that ends school at 1pm for 1st to 10th grade but the country accepts the existence of latchkey kids from as young as 1st grade and kids on public transport also as young as 1st grade.

Here the dual income families have a hard time getting good after school care and some end up putting their kids in private schools because after school care is offered and guaranteed.

 

ETA:

By good childcare, I mean something like YMCA after school care which has long waiting list locally.

Some schools in my home country has adjust the start time later and also end later but schools are not assigned by address so parents can choose the schools that best fit their time schedule (normal or later start time).

Edited March 26, 2017 by Arcadia

[Janeway]

I do not even trust these rankings. They always say "they" tested "kids from" these countries at these ages...and then..never who did the testing, what was the testing, how did they select which kids to test, etc.

[vonfirmath]

While it is great to be great in math and science fields, the world would be a boring place if each country only measured success and value based on math and science measurements. Which countries have stronger physical fitness? Which countries produce the greatest modern day artists and musicians? Which countries' farmers produce the best crops? Which countries have the most satisfaction in long term family relationships and friendships? Which countries have the highest literacy rate? Which countries have the most academic opportunity for those that don't exit their mothers' womb with a rich father, high IQ, and zero disabilities? Which countries would have the higher survival rate if a disaster struck that required basic survival skill instincts? It takes ALL kinds of personal strengths working together to make the human race successful. We need Newtons and Franklins, but we don't need everybody to be an Isaac Newton or Benjamin Franklin, nor do we need every nation to produce them in mass. The emphasis on trying to make every kid into a STEM kid in the US to "compete" with China is why my husband's company got multiple masters in engineering applicants for job opening that only requires an associate degree in the related field or in field experience. Yet, there is a shortage of HVAC techs and plumbers in our area that can actually fix more than a basic AC or plumbing issue.

 

I work for a HVAC/Plumbing company.  This is SO true.  Our people are working OT because we have not been able to find enough people to hire (who actually come to work and work) to fill all the jobs we need right now.  This has been going on for 3-4 months.

 

[Ottakee]

I work for a HVAC/Plumbing company. This is SO true. Our people are working OT because we have not been able to find enough people to hire (who actually come to work and work) to fill all the jobs we need right now. This has been going on for 3-4 months.

 

My husband is in tool and die and there is a critical shortage of skilled workers there too.

[Zuzu822]

That's why I mentioned my state, where starting teachers make 56k, work far fewer hours and have substantially better bennies. They also retire in 25 years with a salary close to what they made in their last years and an excellent health care pkg. Engineers on the other hand, with nongovernmental employers, fund their own retirement sometimes with company matching contribution to 401k, sometimes not; and do not any longer have an option for company retiree health care.

That's really regional. NY is a big state. A district's union is going to negotiate differently too. When I started teaching a decade ago (PK-6 librarian with a MLS + credits), my salary was $37,200. My mother had just retired from the same position after 30+ years around $75,000. Her retirement is double the number of years she taught. So 33 years=66% of her ending salary, capped at (I think) 70-75%. Also newer teachers (I was tier 4) contribute more to their own retirement than the older (my mom is tier 1). My sister is a second year special education teacher with her master's degree plus 30 credits, and makes under $45,000. These aren't districts that are extremely poor either (i.e. not urban but not tiny rural schools). They're in the center of state, and have decent outcomes on both the 3-8 tests and the Regents. Graduation rates good too.

 

My husband is an engineer, and even his starting salary a decade ago was one I'd have to teach 20 years to come close to matching.

 

ETA: Thinking about some of the urban districts nearby, their teachers do make more because they're trying to hold on to staff. However, we saw on the news this week that Syracuse has closed the graduation gap between white and black students. It's still low (64%), but it's still a rare accomplishment for city schools.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Zuzu822

[Murphy101]

That's really regional. NY is a big state. A district's union is going to negotiate differently too. When I started teaching a decade ago (PK-6 librarian with a MLS + credits), my salary was $37,200. My mother had just retired from the same position after 30+ years around $75,000. Her retirement is double the number of years she taught. So 33 years=66% of her ending salary, capped at (I think) 70-75%. Also newer teachers (I was tier 4) contribute more to their own retirement than the older (my mom is tier 1). My sister is a second year special education teacher with her master's degree plus 30 credits, and makes under $45,000. These aren't districts that are extremely poor either (i.e. not urban but not tiny rural schools). They're in the center of state, and have decent outcomes on both the 3-8 tests and the Regents.

 

My husband is an engineer, and even his starting salary a decade ago was one I'd have to teach 20 years to come close to matching.

Lololololol

 

Yeah. Teachers don't come to Oklahoma and they for sure don't make better $ than any kind of engineer.

[kitten18]

Wow. What state are you in? We do the same kind of charter and haven't run into that.

We haven't had to order new stuff yet so I wonder if we would.

 

Has anyone else done a charter and had that kind of push back?

We're in a charter $1300 per semester to spend on whatever books are appropriate.

[Lady Florida.]

My husband is an engineer, and even his starting salary a decade ago was one I'd have to teach 20 years to come close to matching.

 

 

 

Yep. It's why I became a sahm when we had ds and we wanted one of us to stay home. Dh would gladly have been a sahd but we decided the one who made more would be the one to continue to work. Dh has less education than I do but not only did he make more at the time, he had the potential for much more of a salary increase as he gained experience and seniority than I ever would as a teacher. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[LucyStoner]

Thx for your reply Mergath. The video game thing is just one example unfortunately in a sea of thousands of outsourced jobs that would usually be in-house. 

 

?  There are a lot of people in my area earning their living with video game companies. I live in the United States.  Nintendo is less than 30 minutes from my home and they aren't the only gaming employer. XBox anyone?  

[kitten18]

Yep. It's why I became a sahm when we had ds and we wanted one of us to stay home. Dh would gladly have been a sahd but we decided the one who made more would be the one to continue to work. Dh has less education than I do but not only did he make more at the time, he had the potential for much more of a salary increase as he gained experience and seniority than I ever would as a teacher.

Yeah, when dd was born dh and I had both been out of college 8 years. He was being promoted to an executive position and made over 7x what I made teaching (I taught in a pretty poor state). Edited March 26, 2017 by kitten18

[Mergath]

Thx for your reply Mergath. The video game thing is just one example unfortunately in a sea of thousands of outsourced jobs that would usually be in-house. 

 

My point wasn't specifically regarding video game companies, but that we tell children over and over again that education is only important because it's a stepping stone toward getting a good paying job. Maybe if our culture stressed "being an educated person" as the end goal, kids would value education more for its own sake.

 

Regarding science and math, the reason we're behind (imo) is that we don't send our kids to hours of afterschool cram classes (something I'm happy about, but it does mean that the kids who do that tend to test better), our teachers often have an abysmal conceptual understanding of math, and science is all but ignored until high school. Many public schooled kids do the same grow-a-plant-and-hatch-a-butterfly stuff every single year, with maybe a baking soda and vinegar volcano thrown in if they're lucky. No wonder they aren't passionate about the sciences. Seriously. Find a public elementary school near you that publishes the scope and sequence of their science curriculum online and prepare to be depressed. There is so much amazing, cool, fascinating stuff kids can learn about at this age, and so many schools are just phoning it in for an hour or two a week. And then we toss them into dry, textbooky non-integrated science in high school and wonder why they don't all grow up to be chemists and engineers.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mergath

[Arcadia]

Some old related threads:

 

How long on math in countries that are ahead of USA? May 22 2013

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/474013-how-long-on-math-in-countries-that-are-ahead-of-usa/

 

Finn-ished......the article in the Economist Dec 05 2013

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/496507-finn-ishedthe-article-in-the-economist/

 

The Finland Phenomenon Feb 10 2015

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/541909-the-finland-phenomenon/

 

Best schools in Finland - interesting article Apr 01 2016

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/599012-best-schools-in-finland-interesting-article/

 

Coming from the country that top all 3 (Reading, Math and Science) categories in the latest PISA rankings, there is lots of sweat and toil and using textbooks as pillows there. I can tell you that the thick A levels chemistry textbook by Ramsden was nice as a pillow when you are catching a nap while doing homework. My schoolmates would joke of sleeping in class with our eyes still open.

[happybeachbum]

But then you have articles like this http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/11/how-do-american-kids-do-math-pretty-well-it-turns-out. I'm careful with the news.  Too much contradicting reports.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/03/the-math-revolution/426855/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/05/03/were-number-umpteenth-the-myth-of-lagging-u-s-schools/?utm_term=.9ce1c0998849 

Edited March 26, 2017 by happybeachbum