The biggest social safety net in the US

[Barb_]

There is just so much need in so many areas. Do you choose animals? Single moms? Children? The elderly? Immigrants? Illiteracy? Kids with cancer? Hospice? Theater? Public television? Community education?

 

Besides that, people have different seasons. There are times when you have money to spare, and times when you have time to spare. There are also times when you have neither time nor money. There are awareness issues. How do you know an organization needs help if you don't know it exists? Volunteerism is an indispensable resource, but will always be supplemental. Some communities (and states) have more need than volunteers. Even with block grants we have a massive disparity between services.

[creekland]

There is just so much need in so many areas. Do you choose animals? Single moms? Children? The elderly? Immigrants? Illiteracy? Kids with cancer? Hospice? Theater? Public television? Community education?

 

Like I mentioned, there's no shortage of options...  so no problem nixing some choices where folks don't feel help is really needed for all.  

 

It'd really be nice if no one had to worry about medical issue costs...  that is one of our personal extra soft spots.  Educational issues are too.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that most people would like to be generous if they just knew how.

 

You know what?  In my neighborhood one year I put a call out for toys for the Christmas give away because we didn't get any from the Marines due to a date screw up.  It was a last minute thing, at a very busy time of the year.  I did not expect much from it, but I felt like I had to try.  And by morning the donation box, which is about 8 feet tall, and the size of a small bathroom, was FULL.  And I know it was empty the night before, because I dropped some stuff in and heard it fall all the way down, a hollow and disheartening sound under the circumstances.  I just sent out the one email, no pictures, no examples, just that--and people went waaay out of their way to respond.

 

But truthfully, although I happily make meals for sick friends, I don't know how I would find an elderly indigent stranger to feed a la Meals on Wheels.  And I'd much rather cook and deliver than just deliver.  So one of these days if the 90+ year old woman down the street isn't seen for a while, I'll go knock on her door on some pretext to make sure she is OK, and I'll offer to bring her something I've made; and I would do that every week or whatever seemed right.  But until she needs it, or until someone posts an email about someone who is alone and unable to care for herself in the area, I'm not going to know what to do to help with that.

 

I don't think I'm alone in that.  People want to help, they just don't know how.  That's why describing ways to do it is so cool, because it gives others great ideas.

[Audrey]

I think it might be because of the animals, especially dogs. They get attached to someone and that person just never comes back once they get their hours in or decide they have something better to do. The cats probably don't care, but they'd rather not have different rules for cats and dogs. So, if you want to volunteer with animals, first you start at the thrift shop.

 

Off-topic, but...  the cats get attached too.  They just don't express their sadness in the same way.  Cats who feel abandoned, especially repeatedly, withdraw from human contact more and more, and sometimes also withdraw from the company of other cats, too.  They isolate themselves as a defense mechanism, which makes them less attractive as adoptees.  It's very, very difficult to win the trust of a cat with abandonment issues, but if you persist, you will have a most loyal little companion.

[Murphy101]

Off-topic, but... the cats get attached too. They just don't express their sadness in the same way. Cats who feel abandoned, especially repeatedly, withdraw from human contact more and more, and sometimes also withdraw from the company of other cats, too. They isolate themselves as a defense mechanism, which makes them less attractive as adoptees. It's very, very difficult to win the trust of a cat with abandonment issues, but if you persist, you will have a most loyal little companion.

My cats would do that. By day 3 of being gone, I'd get a text or call that they weren't eating and were hidden under different bed refusing to come out. Even when we are only gone 1-3 days, one of them wouldn't come out from under the bed for another couple days. Like they wanted to be sure we weren't going anywhere again before risking coming out to love us again.

[Tanaqui]

I think it might be because of the animals, especially dogs. They get attached to someone and that person just never comes back once they get their hours in or decide they have something better to do. The cats probably don't care, but they'd rather not have different rules for cats and dogs. So, if you want to volunteer with animals, first you start at the thrift shop.

 

Cats certainly do care! It's a myth that they're not social animals. They're not social in quite the same way dogs are, but they absolutely care about the people and other animals they're attached to, and they do visibly react when those people disappear.

 

Also: A poem.

[Lady Florida.]

Guys, I know cats care. I've had both cats and dogs since I was 7 years old (I'm over 60 so, more than 50 years). Currently I have only one cat but have often had more (and often had cats and dogs at the same time). They don't care in the same way dogs do, and the shelter sees how dogs react when people they were attached to suddenly leave. 

[mommaduck]

Where I live, there is no volunteer anything unless you are over eighteen and have a car (and then, that would be the animal shelter or drive an hour away to find opportunities). If live locally, don't have a car, don't have money to donate, and aren't a member of a local church, forget it.

[Guest]

I don't know where you live, but where I live youth groups make their own volunteer activities. They see a need, or approach people and ask if there is a need and then organize themselves and fill the need. Right now, Earth Day activities and Relay for Life activities are coming up. If your dc can't join an established group, they could make tray favors for meals on wheels or cards for shut ins, hospital patients or rehab patients. Or grow a row for the local foodbank,knit hats for homeless, etc. If you need no cost to you, use your existing internet connection and participate in any number of ongoing volunteer teams, such as The North American Bird Phenology Program.

[mommaduck]

We rent...no garden. Getting involved with an established group would mean joining a church we don't agree with and excommunicating ourselves from our Faith; that is NOT happening. There are no Earth Day activities, Meals on Wheels, etc here. Rehabs are an hour away by vehicle, of which we don't have. 

Again, no money, no vehicle...hands and time, but no opportunities.

 

Up North, we had a COMMUNITY food and clothing bank that my older kids helped at, that they walked to. They also were able to volunteer with their youth group at the monastery (mulching, baking, etc). We don't have that here. After two years, I was fortunate enough to finally get a priest to visit us.

[Audrey]

Guys, I know cats care. I've had both cats and dogs since I was 7 years old (I'm over 60 so, more than 50 years). Currently I have only one cat but have often had more (and often had cats and dogs at the same time). They don't care in the same way dogs do, and the shelter sees how dogs react when people they were attached to suddenly leave. 

 

Sorry, Kathy.  I hope you know I wasn 't trying to chastise.  Rather, I just wanted to point out the flawed system of shelters who think that the cats are less in need of companionship.  I see that in our local shelters.  It's all about getting the dogs adopted and fostered.  The cats are seen as a secondary nuisance and left without human attention because there is this idea amongst many shelters that cats will mostly take care of themselves.

[Catwoman]

We rent...no garden. Getting involved with an established group would mean joining a church we don't agree with and excommunicating ourselves from our Faith; that is NOT happening. There are no Earth Day activities, Meals on Wheels, etc here. Rehabs are an hour away by vehicle, of which we don't have.

 

Again, no money, no vehicle...hands and time, but no opportunities.

 

Up North, we had a COMMUNITY food and clothing bank that my older kids helped at, that they walked to. They also were able to volunteer with their youth group at the monastery (mulching, baking, etc). We don't have that here. After two years, I was fortunate enough to finally get a priest to visit us.

Are there any elderly people or single moms in your neighborhood that would appreciate having your kids do some basic yardwork, or even doing things like little repairs around their house?

 

Often, I think kids get a better sense of satisfaction out of helping individuals rather than groups, and often those people are the ones who most need help but are least likely to ask for it.

[Carol in Cal.]

JC, very sorry that you are so isolated.

 

If you all want to do volunteer work, I would suggest a less organizational approach.

 

Plant a row of beans, and take some to your neighbors when they come up.  Or find someone elderly who is a bit overwhelmed and offer to weed out her front garden.  Or make things out of local natural materials for the next church bazaar--it can be as simple as Sharpied sayings on river rocks.  When we were both out of work, I still wanted to bring stuff to the bake sale, so I baked white bread, seriously, and it was immensely popular.  Plus it mostly used stuff I already had in the house hence was just about free.  OH!  for Easter you can decorate brown eggs with colored Sharpies, and they look AWESOME.  I wouldn't eat them, though.

 

Two secular or at least non-sectarian organizations that do nice volunteer work with kids are Jane Goodall's Roots and Shoots, or fraternal benefit societies.  It's easy to start a Roots and Shoots group; it's free and all of the information is online.

[Audrey]

We rent...no garden. Getting involved with an established group would mean joining a church we don't agree with and excommunicating ourselves from our Faith; that is NOT happening. There are no Earth Day activities, Meals on Wheels, etc here. Rehabs are an hour away by vehicle, of which we don't have. 

 

Again, no money, no vehicle...hands and time, but no opportunities.

 

Up North, we had a COMMUNITY food and clothing bank that my older kids helped at, that they walked to. They also were able to volunteer with their youth group at the monastery (mulching, baking, etc). We don't have that here. After two years, I was fortunate enough to finally get a priest to visit us.

 

Do you have neighbours?  When my son was too young for other volunteer stuff around town, he would offer to help elderly folks in town with errands and chores. 

[Lady Florida.]

Sorry, Kathy.  I hope you know I wasn 't trying to chastise.  Rather, I just wanted to point out the flawed system of shelters who think that the cats are less in need of companionship.  I see that in our local shelters.  It's all about getting the dogs adopted and fostered.  The cats are seen as a secondary nuisance and left without human attention because there is this idea amongst many shelters that cats will mostly take care of themselves.

 

No apology necessary from my fellow cat lover. I was thinking about my sweet girl after this conversation. When I've gone away even for just a few days she misses me. When I come home she runs around the house from room to room. We eventually figured out she does this because she's glad I'm home.

[mommaduck]

No. The elderly people on our street are dragons. They hire yard people. One about had a fit with us for offering to help with her yard. Beyond that, we've learned to avoid them. We've been lectured for our faith, for homeschooling, for my wearing a headscarf, religious literature put in bags with "treats" for the kids, popping up in our backyard regularly, unannounced, etc. It wasn't for lack of trying. It was a matter of we won't change to "fit" their nice, white, southern, baptist, Republican box.

 

As my kids have gotten old enough, they've gotten jobs. That seems to be the only way they have been able to get to know more diverse people. Those that don't fit in a box, work and keep to themselves. The town is run by a certain "type". Anyone that doesn't fit that "type" is not included.

Edited March 19, 2017 by mommaduck

[Audrey]

 

 

Two secular or at least non-sectarian organizations that do nice volunteer work with kids are Jane Goodall's Roots and Shoots, or fraternal benefit societies.  It's easy to start a Roots and Shoots group; it's free and all of the information is online.

 

Fantastic idea!  Just a quick look and it seems that a team can be a single family, too.  You don't even have to try to get others involved if you want to go solo.  https://www.rootsandshoots.org/ is the site. 

 

I'm sorry I didn't know about this a few years ago!

[mommaduck]

JC, very sorry that you are so isolated.

 

If you all want to do volunteer work, I would suggest a less organizational approach.

 

Plant a row of beans, and take some to your neighbors when they come up.  Or find someone elderly who is a bit overwhelmed and offer to weed out her front garden.  Or make things out of local natural materials for the next church bazaar--it can be as simple as Sharpied sayings on river rocks.  When we were both out of work, I still wanted to bring stuff to the bake sale, so I baked white bread, seriously, and it was immensely popular.  Plus it mostly used stuff I already had in the house hence was just about free.  OH!  for Easter you can decorate brown eggs with colored Sharpies, and they look AWESOME.  I wouldn't eat them, though.

 

Two secular or at least non-sectarian organizations that do nice volunteer work with kids are Jane Goodall's Roots and Shoots, or fraternal benefit societies.  It's easy to start a Roots and Shoots group; it's free and all of the information is online.

 

I'll look up Roots and Shoots and see what the requirements are. We are not able to plant a garden here. No one has a front garden (or garden that I know of...we live on the edge of "the neighbourhood" for our town. Feels like no one really has a garden here, unless they live outside of town). I have offered my teenagers as volunteers so they have something to do, but with no response. Everything is done through people's churches. If you aren't part of a church, then you aren't connected. In fact, it's also why we have not been able to break into the homeschool group here. No church bazaar. Again, all parishes of our faith are an hour away and we don't have a vehicle. We've not been to Liturgy in over two years and JUST got a priest to visit us (that took surgery and several calls from both myself and a friend in Canada calling down).

[mommaduck]

My point being, however, is that there is not always volunteer opportunity and there is not always the help people need on the local level (and it can be even tougher if you aren't "from" the area you live in). 

 

I very much support volunteerism and community-mindedness.

[Guest]

No. The elderly people on our street are dragons. They hire yard people. One about had a fit with us for offering to help with her yard. Beyond that, we've learned to avoid them. We've been lectured for our faith, for homeschooling, for my wearing a headscarf, religious literature put in bags with "treats" for the kids, popping up in our backyard regularly, unannounced, etc. It wasn't for lack of trying. It was a matter of we won't change to "fit" their nice, white, southern, baptist, Republican box.

 

As my kids have gotten old enough, they've gotten jobs. That seems to be the only way they have been able to get to know more diverse people. Those that don't fit in a box, work and keep to themselves. The town is run by a certain "type". Anyone that doesn't fit that "type" is not included.

Sounds like Internet opportunities would work for you, but you are against the conservation idea mentioned. If you want to post what is acceptable, someone in this diverse group could help you find something.

[Carol in Cal.]

The roots and shoots group that DD was in did three projects.

 

You're encouraged to find something to help local animals, something to help the local environment, and something to help nature in another country.  They made snugglies for animals in the shelter out of soft old socks--I think they stuffed them.  They scattered wildflower seeds in parking strips to provide flowers for bees--I think they used California poppy seeds because they self-seed here and the bumblebees love them.  And they held a garage sale benefitting an international fund, WWF maybe.  These were over the course of about a semester, and the kids pretty much figured them out themselves.  It was fun and very accessible.

[mommaduck]

Sounds like Internet opportunities would work for you, but you are against the conservation idea mentioned. If you want to post what is acceptable, someone in this diverse group could help you find something.

 

Against conservation? 

[SKL]

My sister in law does knitting for premature babies and stuff like that.  That's something one can do at home.

 

Anyhoo, I don't believe in telling other people what they should do as volunteer work - that is not "volunteer" work in my opinion - but I do appreciate it when communities make different options available.

 

My community has park clean-up days and such, which are accessible to most.  There are probably other things too.  I have looked pretty hard for things I can do with my kids.  There are certain age ranges where opportunities are hard to find.  We seem to be past that stage though.  :)

[poppy]

I'm really confused why we are talking about volunteering.   Is that the goal?   To kill social programs but hope people  will volunteer?

I have been on so many boards, written so many newsletters, spent so many flippin' hours in civic group meetings, I've spoken at town hall, I've run so many meetings..... I won't list my bona fides, I'm sure a lot of us here have them.   I know exactly what MOST people show up for (free stuff), what they'll pay for (auction / raffle tickets to get donated goods at a relatively low price), what events work (fun runs and festivals that take massive volunteer hours), what they'll donate for, etc.  It is all very good work, but, doesn't really seem relevant to the conversation about the social safety net.

[Barb_]

I'm really confused why we are talking about volunteering. Is that the goal? To kill social programs but hope people will volunteer?

I have been on so many boards, written so many newsletters, spent so many flippin' hours in civic group meetings, I've spoken at town hall, I've run so many meetings..... I won't list my bona fides, I'm sure a lot of us here have them. I know exactly what MOST people show up for (free stuff), what they'll pay for (auction / raffle tickets to get donated goods at a relatively low price), what events work (fun runs and festivals that take massive volunteer hours), what they'll donate for, etc. It is all very good work, but, doesn't really seem relevant to the conversation about the social safety net.

Yeah, I agree. I appreciate the suggestions too (I have roots and shoots bookmarked, thanks Carol), but maybe that's a different thread. I think the latter part of this thread has illustrated that it's impossible to completely replace federal community block grants with local money or muscle power.

[FaithManor]

I work tireless hours for 4H. If you think volunteers can replace government programs, you are sorely mistaken.

 

There is a lot of good work to do, but in another thread. The reality is that if we want these programs, tax dollars are going to have to go to them, and if want each state to have them, and to have even the remotest chance of barest bones equal access across the States, it will have to be federally administered with regulations. This country is too vast and too UN-united for it to work any other way. We all know there would be white supremacist areas that would deny good works to non-whites, evangelical groups that would block non-Christians from access, and so forth across the spectrum.

 

I am no fan of going backward in the civil rights movement. So it needs to be federally mandated with some basic regulations.

[Audrey]

I'm really confused why we are talking about volunteering.   Is that the goal?   To kill social programs but hope people  will volunteer?

I have been on so many boards, written so many newsletters, spent so many flippin' hours in civic group meetings, I've spoken at town hall, I've run so many meetings..... I won't list my bona fides, I'm sure a lot of us here have them.   I know exactly what MOST people show up for (free stuff), what they'll pay for (auction / raffle tickets to get donated goods at a relatively low price), what events work (fun runs and festivals that take massive volunteer hours), what they'll donate for, etc.  It is all very good work, but, doesn't really seem relevant to the conversation about the social safety net.

 

 

You're right, but threads do tend to rabbit trail.

 

To get back to the social safety net topic....   here is my question/concern....  in the US, social programs seem to replicate need services, which can be a waste of money.  The healthcare equation isn't just ACA, but also Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc.  It would be much more equitable, efficient, effective and economical to provide a single service for all instead of parcelling out healthcare to particular target groups and hanging disparate qualifications, levels of service and options onto each individual program.

 

Similarly, there are multiple programs dealing with social support for food, multiple programs for housing.  The pattern is evident elsewhere, too.  I am not suggesting smaller government, but consolidating programs would certainly save time and money and make it easier to track expenditures across a larger population.  Other countries (including ones with independent states/provinces) employ some similar strategies to keep costs down and access broad.

[Pam in CT]

We do a variety of family-based volunteer projects, both here and overseas.  For the most, I mentally categorize such activities as service learning -- we, ourselves, are the main beneficiaries in terms of our own learning and experience we ourselves gain.  To the extent that we do a bit of (mostly unskilled) labor or raise a bit of money for a cause, that's a terrific side effect... but for the most part, it's not a lack of (mostly unskilled) labor that constrains development or hinders social problems from getting solved.

 

There are a handful of issues on which I know a little bit, a handful of skills I can offer up, a handful of organizations in which my time matters when I make a long haul commitment.  But most of the time, for most of the broken places, the most useful way I can contribute is by giving whatever money I can.

 

Through both charitable giving and taxes.  There's a place for each.

 

One of the main reasons why some issues are best funded, even if not implemented, at the federal level, that I did not notice yet being addressed in this thread, is state differences in tax capacity.  If all funding for all social services were left to the states, states with less tax capacity would get ever-worse services while those with more would be able to make more investments in education/human capital as well as infrastructure/business capital... leading to ever wider inequality discrepancies.  There are a variety of ways to slice & dice this issue; here is a good one that ranks relative federal inflows/outflows at  both at net federal inflow/outflow at the individual level (individual taxes paid vs transfers back to individuals) and also at the state budgetary level.

[Guest]

I'm really confused why we are talking about volunteering. Is that the goal? .

Volunteering is a way people improve the human condition. It helps people see the invisible who are suffering, and, among other things helps connect people who have nonmonetary resources with others that can use them. One of the benefits of volunteering is showing that a need is widespread..for ex, a group here provided lunch to ele. children at the playground all summer for years. They were overwhelmed at the increase during the recession, and their data helped others see the increased need and meet it quickly. The data helped in the long term by qualifying them for a federal summer feeding program, as the need outstripped the resources of the community.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Catwoman]

No. The elderly people on our street are dragons. They hire yard people. One about had a fit with us for offering to help with her yard. Beyond that, we've learned to avoid them. We've been lectured for our faith, for homeschooling, for my wearing a headscarf, religious literature put in bags with "treats" for the kids, popping up in our backyard regularly, unannounced, etc. It wasn't for lack of trying. It was a matter of we won't change to "fit" their nice, white, southern, baptist, Republican box.

 

As my kids have gotten old enough, they've gotten jobs. That seems to be the only way they have been able to get to know more diverse people. Those that don't fit in a box, work and keep to themselves. The town is run by a certain "type". Anyone that doesn't fit that "type" is not included.

I'm so sorry to hear that people are so mean and intolerant. :(

 

That's just awful. :grouphug:

[Barb_]

You're right, but threads do tend to rabbit trail.

 

To get back to the social safety net topic.... here is my question/concern.... in the US, social programs seem to replicate need services, which can be a waste of money. The healthcare equation isn't just ACA, but also Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc. It would be much more equitable, efficient, effective and economical to provide a single service for all instead of parcelling out healthcare to particular target groups and hanging disparate qualifications, levels of service and options onto each individual program.

 

Similarly, there are multiple programs dealing with social support for food, multiple programs for housing. The pattern is evident elsewhere, too. I am not suggesting smaller government, but consolidating programs would certainly save time and money and make it easier to track expenditures across a larger population. Other countries (including ones with independent states/provinces) employ some similar strategies to keep costs down and access broad.

I think it has to do with all the compromises we have to make to get anything done. Everything is piecemeal because small programs can be pushed through with effort and big programs = big government and hit roadblocks. Ironically, big programs can be more streamlined and therefore more efficient and effective. I don't think small government is reasonable or desireable in this century. Rugged individualism had its century, but I believe that time has largely passed.

[extendedforecast]

My sister in law does knitting for premature babies and stuff like that. That's something one can do at home.

 

Anyhoo, I don't believe in telling other people what they should do as volunteer work - that is not "volunteer" work in my opinion - but I do appreciate it when communities make different options available.

 

My community has park clean-up days and such, which are accessible to most. There are probably other things too. I have looked pretty hard for things I can do with my kids. There are certain age ranges where opportunities are hard to find. We seem to be past that stage though. :)

My daughter also knits hats for preemies. When my six year old was admitted to the hospital this past December, she was given a fleece no-sew princess blanket that volunteers had made. She got to take it home with her, and she loves it. It was one of the only good things about that hospital stay. I would love to do something similar in return.

[Dmmetler]

I'll look up Roots and Shoots and see what the requirements are. We are not able to plant a garden here. No one has a front garden (or garden that I know of...we live on the edge of "the neighbourhood" for our town. Feels like no one really has a garden here, unless they live outside of town). I have offered my teenagers as volunteers so they have something to do, but with no response. Everything is done through people's churches. If you aren't part of a church, then you aren't connected. In fact, it's also why we have not been able to break into the homeschool group here. No church bazaar. Again, all parishes of our faith are an hour away and we don't have a vehicle. We've not been to Liturgy in over two years and JUST got a priest to visit us (that took surgery and several calls from both myself and a friend in Canada calling down).

In the past, Athena's Academy has done an online Roots and Shoots group where the kids work together to figure out projects to do. It probably is younger kids, though.

[Caroline]

My daughter also knits hats for preemies. When my six year old was admitted to the hospital this past December, she was given a fleece no-sew princess blanket that volunteers had made. She got to take it home with her, and she loves it. It was one of the only good things about that hospital stay. I would love to do something similar in return.

Project Linus makes blankets for kids in hospitals.

 

http://m.projectlinus.org/app/faqs/2062513/36/

 

My dd got a Project Linus blanket when she was in the PICU when she was about 18 months old.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think that volunteerism can be relied upon to replace government programs, but I think that the government could improve efficiency by funding volunteer programs AND filling gaps between them, without taking control of them, and without a lot of concern about the establishment clause if it was parsed right.

 

Big burocracies don't necessarily have economies of scale.  They do up to a point, and then beyond that they tend to get top heavy, insensitive, and self-perpetuating rather than mission focussed.

[SKL]

The volunteer thing was a rabbit trail.  That said, volunteerism has some important effects on citizens.  It makes us feel more of a community.  It teaches people where needs are and how they can be met.  It helps individuals put their own troubles into perspective.  It improves the mental health of the helpers and the helped.  And it does provide valuable goods and services / defray costs, allowing government funds to be focused on other needs.

[Carol in Cal.]

The volunteer thing was a rabbit trail.  That said, volunteerism has some important effects on citizens.  It makes us feel more of a community.  It teaches people where needs are and how they can be met.  It helps individuals put their own troubles into perspective.  It improves the mental health of the helpers and the helped.  And it does provide valuable goods and services / defray costs, allowing government funds to be focused on other needs.

All true.

 

I want to emphasize your second one.

 

Lots of people really, honestly don't know how hard some have it.  And sometimes finding that out is enough to get them hooked in fixing things or on generosity.  

 

We don't mix across socio-economic lines all that much in this country.

[LucyStoner]

I wasn't trying to make anyone uncomfortable with the war analogy, but that is how lots of people feel. I do think that we could vote with our DOLLARS instead of our votes, make informed choices about where we spend money are corporations would fall right into line. Sadly, I think that is the ONLY way to fix the problem we are in now. We can't wait for the government or corporations to fix things. We have to be informed consumers. Walmart junk made in China when for more money you will get a better product made somewhere that the workers were well treated is part of the problem. Not always, but often you can spend money responsibly.

Not if your job is gone or you are living on very limited means. Cheap food and consumer goods benefit many people. "spend money responsibly" is a nice idea but if the imported sweatshirt is $5 on clearance and the made in America sweatshop free one is $100 and never goes on sale, it's not hard to see which one the mom making $8/hour will be best able to afford.

[poppy]

I don't think that volunteerism can be relied upon to replace government programs, but I think that the government could improve efficiency by funding volunteer programs AND filling gaps between them, without taking control of them, and without a lot of concern about the establishment clause if it was parsed right.

 

Big burocracies don't necessarily have economies of scale.  They do up to a point, and then beyond that they tend to get top heavy, insensitive, and self-perpetuating rather than mission focussed.

 

 

This was the exact idea behind block grant programs. 

 

[Barb_]

This was the exact idea behind block grant programs.

 

Yep, block grant programs fill in the gaps around volunteerism with few if any regulations on spending. In the past, they've enjoyed bipartisan support as a way for congress to move money to their constituents without unduly burdening them with regulation. That's why I mentioned upthread that this money is "silent," in smaller areas, especially. There are local programs funded by block grants that no one has any idea will disappear if federal funding vanishishes. Edited March 20, 2017 by Barb_

[extendedforecast]

Not if your job is gone or you are living on very limited means. Cheap food and consumer goods benefit many people. "spend money responsibly" is a nice idea but if the imported sweatshirt is $5 on clearance and the made in America sweatshop free one is $100 and never goes on sale, it's not hard to see which one the mom making $8/hour will be best able to afford.

I agree with this, but when I've used this argument in the past, I have been told that that mother should be buying at second hand stores instead.

[FaithManor]

I agree with this, but when I've used this argument in the past, I have been told that that mother should be buying at second hand stores instead.

The 2nd hand store idea is nice in theory but not great in practice. Some sizes are hard to find and a lot of it is high priced for the shape it is in. Our local Goodwill has some of the worst, worn out pieces of clothing and want $3.99 and $4.99.

 

The $8.00 new on clearance rack is a better use of money.

[kiana]

The 2nd hand store idea is nice in theory but not great in practice. Some sizes are hard to find and a lot of it is high priced for the shape it is in. Our local Goodwill has some of the worst, worn out pieces of clothing and want $3.99 and $4.99.

 

The $8.00 new on clearance rack is a better use of money.

 

Thrift store where my mother is has some of the nice, nice used sweatshirts. 

 

Thrift store where I live has the $8 Walmart sweatshirts, used. 

 

People who live in better-off areas often see all the nice clothes at thrift stores near them and assume they're all like that. But thrift stores in poor communities have the castoffs from places slightly-less-poor people can afford to buy new, which is dollar stores and walmart. 

[maize]

Not if your job is gone or you are living on very limited means. Cheap food and consumer goods benefit many people. "spend money responsibly" is a nice idea but if the imported sweatshirt is $5 on clearance and the made in America sweatshop free one is $100 and never goes on sale, it's not hard to see which one the mom making $8/hour will be best able to afford.

 

The other thing is that when you are using all your physical, mental, and emotional resources just to get by from day to day there is just not much left over to devote to ethical or political or economic statements or activism of any kind. You focus on surviving until the next day.

[Bluegoat]

With organizations, it was easy to see who (if anyone) they endorsed.  If they endorsed someone I didn't care for... that settled it.  They don't have my values.  If they stayed neutral, no problem.

 

With individuals, all one has to do is listen to their opinions as they talk about them - no direct question needed unless it's just to get on the topic and that's super easy to do.

 

We do both types of charity giving and have changed beneficiaries quite a bit over the past 6 months.

 

If in doubt I give the benefit of the doubt, but there's honestly no doubt in many cases - esp local.

 

Now too, I have options of adding in programs subject to getting less in the new budget with the $$ I've quit sending elsewhere.  Our overall charitable giving hasn't changed one bit - just the direction it goes to.  We never have problems finding enough good causes (even prior to the latest turn of events), so it's not like I'm hard up figuring out where I can send our $$.  I could easily spend more if we get it.  

 

We donate a percentage of what we earn.  It doesn't matter if it's a tax deductible donation - like to an organization - or to an individual/small group - like kids from school raising $$ for a field trip or a jar next to the cash register or similar.  We give based on how much we have in our budget for it and whims on who we want to support.  Since our income changes monthly (being self-employed can do that), so does our charitable giving.  By the end of the year I make sure it's hit the percentage we want - sometimes it's over, but that's ok.  If it's under, I add extra elsewhere.  At Christmas time, that's easy to do - though actually at any time of the year it's easy to do.

 

Ah, that makes sense - I was envisioning trying to figure out the voting demographics of, say, food bank users, when thinking about donating to one. 

[creekland]

Ah, that makes sense - I was envisioning trying to figure out the voting demographics of, say, food bank users, when thinking about donating to one. 

 

Yeah, that one would be tough!  We certainly don't worry about that.   :lol:

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

People who live in better-off areas often see all the nice clothes at thrift stores near them and assume they're all like that. But thrift stores in poor communities have the castoffs from places slightly-less-poor people can afford to buy new, which is dollar stores and walmart. 

 

Thrift stores in my area don't have much in the way of children's clothes. They mostly have old people clothes as adult children donate their deceased parents' stuff. Not everything one needs is going to be available at a thrift shop.

 

Also, there is less stigma for a child wearing an $8 Walmart shirt than a $3 thrift shop or hand me down shirt. I know this from experience, having often worn hand me down and thrift shop clothes as a child. More than once I was taunted with "That was my dress. My mom gave it to charity because it's so out of style" even when it wasn't true. Kids can be mean, and they're often especially mean to those less fortunate.  My brother got that to some extent, but as a female, I got more of it. 

[Bluegoat]

The 2nd hand store idea is nice in theory but not great in practice. Some sizes are hard to find and a lot of it is high priced for the shape it is in. Our local Goodwill has some of the worst, worn out pieces of clothing and want $3.99 and $4.99.

 

The $8.00 new on clearance rack is a better use of money.

 

I think this depends - I often find I do better second hand than new, so far as finding good clothes.  We have some good second hand places here.

 

But I cannot imagine saying that second-hand is really the way to allow low-income people to shop better.  One reason being that with clothes, even expensive things are often made in ways that aren't responsible.  And with food, it's not going to work.

 

The problem is really that pricing and quality and such are a system problem - as an individual, I can make choices to a point, but the nature of the system is such that although, for example,  food ought probably to be a very large portion of my budget in order to reflect its real costs and value, I have other expenses that make it impossible to spend that way.  And I have more ability to direct my dollars than someone who is poor.

 

One thing I think we can try and do, not the poor but sometimes the low income and for sure the middle class - is to resist social pressures to buy a lot of things in some consumer categories - clothing is a good example, there is a lot of craziness in the fashion cycle and cheap clothes that don't wear are related to that.  Electronics is another area.

[extendedforecast]

The 2nd hand store idea is nice in theory but not great in practice. Some sizes are hard to find and a lot of it is high priced for the shape it is in. Our local Goodwill has some of the worst, worn out pieces of clothing and want $3.99 and $4.99.

 

The $8.00 new on clearance rack is a better use of money.

Tell me about it. I donated some clothes to Goodwill that were new with tags on that I couldn't return (well I could if I was willing to accept less than a dollar for each one) because I had procrastinated and they went on clearance. Weeks later I saw one of the shirts on the rack. The price portion of the original tag had been cut off, and the asking price from GW was significantly more than what I had paid.

[historically accurate]

Thrift store where my mother is has some of the nice, nice used sweatshirts. 

 

Thrift store where I live has the $8 Walmart sweatshirts, used. 

 

People who live in better-off areas often see all the nice clothes at thrift stores near them and assume they're all like that. But thrift stores in poor communities have the castoffs from places slightly-less-poor people can afford to buy new, which is dollar stores and walmart. 

 

Oh, so true. I get excited when my kids take science classes at a magnet school about 1 1/2 hours away - I find gems at their goodwill. I always spend a lot (for Goodwill) whenever they go; they only attend about 3x per year so I don't feel bad spending $35 a visit for lots of nice clothes we can wear to work & church. I only find walmart brands at my local goodwill.

Edited March 20, 2017 by beckyjo