Parenting a child who thinks rules are optional

[maize]

You do not need the same rules for each child. Or rather, you can have a rule with flexible application; the rule is that electronics are not to be used overnight. If your dd is responsible with electronics hers can be accessible. Since your son has proven irresponsibility a higher level rule kicks in where his devices must be locked up.

[Plateau Mama]

You do not need the same rules for each child. Or rather, you can have a rule with flexible application; the rule is that electronics are not to be used overnight. If your dd is responsible with electronics hers can be accessible. Since your son has proven irresponsibility a higher level rule kicks in where his devices must be locked up.

I agree I shouldn't need the same rules but by having the same rules for both of the older kids that give him one less thing he can argue with us about.

[maize]

I agree I shouldn't need the same rules but by having the same rules for both of the older kids that give him one less thing he can argue with us about.

Honestly trying to prevent him from arguing with you doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavour. Fear of arguments shouldn't be dictating your household rules.

 

You don't have to engage if you don't want to; come up with a set response or two that you always apply when he argues. Then be a broken record.

[Anne in CA]

I found for my oldest that with her EF issues the immediate power trip of making me upset at being late was a HUGE payoff she couldn't turn down. She loved to control of the whole family waiting for her. The exception was church, which she loved so much she would always be the first person ready to go. As far as I know she has never been late for church ONCE in her life. I would consider putting his phone in the car and telling him that he gets it when he is buckled up ready to go on time. He doesn't need his phone in the morning anyway. I'd lock it in the car overnight. At night you could put the phone in the car and he can use it on the way to school IF HE IS ON TIME. Also, could you lock the electronics in the garage? 

[Guest]

Personally I don't understand this being late thing. I am never late unless someone else (i.e. Son) makes me late.

 

He has 3 alarms. He had 4 but w/o phone now 3. He knows I may or may not come to make sure he's awake.

He is supposed to be downstairs fully dressed 20 minutes before departure.

We tell him 10-15 minutes before actual departure so we have a chance of being on time.

I try to point out the time when he gets in the car and praise him if it's on time (or w/in 5 minutes).

 

He can be all ready 20 minutes before and still be late. I don't get it.

Okay, but that still sounds to me like won't, not can't, which you specifically stated. If he knows you will (maybe) come in, that is actually four alarms. {sidebar: I physically wake up my own son for school instead of making him depend on his alarm, so I'm not saying that can't also be a choice one could make.} If he has you as an alarm ten minutes till takeoff (I understand, I do this, too), then there is even less of a reason he "can't" leave on time. It's nice that you praise him when he gets to the car on time, but really, this should just be a fact. It sounds like you've adopted his own excuse because honestly, I just would not brook that nonsense day after day. I have said, "Get in the car right this minute! And then I stand there, breathing fire with keys in my hand. :D

 

If he's ready to go and it's time to go, I would propel his turd wagon out the door.

[That70'sLisa]

Hugs.....sounds like things I've said, though my son is much younger (especially the "consequences don't work" part). For my (autistic) kiddo, I finally realized that he really wasn't being obtuse. I still have trouble realizing that he really, really doesn't understand "the spirit" of a rule, and that when he uses a "loophole", almost always he genuinely didn't know. Even with that understanding, it still can be exhausting.

 

Probably not the same for your guy, though the EF issues, getting up in middle of night, and " explosions" do make me wonder...

[maize]

Obnoxious as the arguing can be, I would personally be more concerned about a teen who never stood up to adult authority. Kids need to practice standing up for their point of view and speaking out for themselves. It is my opinion that fear of confrontation and excessive compliance are significant problems for many adults.

[Plateau Mama]

It's nice that you praise him when he gets to the car on time, but really, this should just be a fact. It sounds like you've adopted his own excuse because honestly, I just would not brook that nonsense day after day. I have said, "Get in the car right this minute! And then I stand there, breathing fire with keys in my hand. :D

 

If he's ready to go and it's time to go, I would propel his turd wagon out the door.

We've tried the get your arse in the car right now. It doesn't work. It ends up with people in tears and we are still late probably later because we have to deal with the meltdown and now upset too. When it's time to leave we tell him (actually 10 minutes before) and we go wait in the car. Then when he gets in we check the clock.

 

Now someone is going to say just leave him and if it's an optional activity we have done that but most of the time when he leaves the house it's mandatory school, dr appointment etc. so leaving him isn't an option. We are trying to lessen the yelling so we are trying to gently nudge him. I truely believe this is, for the most part, an EF issue not a control/defiance issue.

[Guest]

We've tried the get your arse in the car right now. It doesn't work. It ends up with people in tears and we are still late probably later because we have to deal with the meltdown and now upset too. When it's time to leave we tell him (actually 10 minutes before) and we go wait in the car. Then when he gets in we check the clock.

 

Now someone is going to say just leave him and if it's an optional activity we have done that but most of the time when he leaves the house it's mandatory school, dr appointment etc. so leaving him isn't an option. We are trying to lessen the yelling so we are trying to gently nudge him. I truely believe this is, for the most part, an EF issue not a control/defiance issue.

I can't actually understand how this goes down. I personally would not go sit in the car because I would be sitting there with my ears steaming while he was inside doing God-knows-what. I would stand there being The Voice of God until he moved his butt out the door. It's like - when they kids were little and Joanne (of these boards) had the "Get Off Your Butt" rule - when you tell the kid to do something, if they don't start moving, get off your own butt and make the action happen. Really, that alone was probably the best bit of advice on parenting I ever got, because my kids experienced that my words meant something. It wasn't my opinion that they should put their shoes on and clean up the Legos, KWIM, ot was happening come hell or high water; happy about it or not.

 

I follow the same policy, I guess, even with my 17yo, even though it has been a long time since I physically marched him to the door for anything. (I couldn't anyway, since he outweighs me by far and is four inches taller than me.:)) But I would still be standing there burning a hole in the side of his head with my eyeballs and generally making his life very annoying until he hauls his butt out the door.

 

But I don't know...maybe your situation calls for something far different than mine did. My son has weak EF, too, but you may have more going on than poor time management skills and distractability.

[Anne in CA]

We've tried the get your arse in the car right now. It doesn't work. It ends up with people in tears and we are still late probably later because we have to deal with the meltdown and now upset too. When it's time to leave we tell him (actually 10 minutes before) and we go wait in the car. Then when he gets in we check the clock.

 

Now someone is going to say just leave him and if it's an optional activity we have done that but most of the time when he leaves the house it's mandatory school, dr appointment etc. so leaving him isn't an option. We are trying to lessen the yelling so we are trying to gently nudge him. I truely believe this is, for the most part, an EF issue not a control/defiance issue.

I do think for some kids the EF issues tie into control. I don't personally know your son, but his sense of independence is very strong. I agree that yelling helps nothing, and probably upsets your other children even though they are not getting yelled at. Again, he'd get to the car if that's where his electronics are. He may not be able to follow through three steps ahead to the fact that getting to school on time leads to good grades. But I bet he can get to the car to get his phone. 

[Plateau Mama]

I can't actually understand how this goes down. I personally would not go sit in the car because I would be sitting there with my ears steaming while he was inside doing God-knows-what. I would stand there being The Voice of God until he moved his butt out the door. It's like - when they kids were little and Joanne (of these boards) had the "Get Off Your Butt" rule - when you tell the kid to do something, if they don't start moving, get off your own butt and make the action happen. Really, that alone was probably the best bit of advice on parenting I ever got, because my kids experienced that my words meant something. It wasn't my opinion that they should put their shoes on and clean up the Legos, KWIM, ot was happening come hell or high water; happy about it or not.

 

I follow the same policy, I guess, even with my 17yo, even though it has been a long time since I physically marched him to the door for anything. (I couldn't anyway, since he outweighs me by far and is four inches taller than me.:)) But I would still be standing there burning a hole in the side of his head with my eyeballs and generally making his life very annoying until he hauls his butt out the door.

 

But I don't know...maybe your situation calls for something far different than mine did. My son has weak EF, too, but you may have more going on than poor time management skills and distractability.

But being the voice of God actually makes the issue worse and makes us later. Anytime voices are raised, even slightly, he goes into melt down mode. By calmly telling him we are waiting in the car he actually hustles more. No clue why but he does.

 

I can tell him we are leaving in 5 minutes and to start getting ready but he doesn't take action until we are all in the car waiting on him. Maybe it's a control thing but I don't think so. Even if it is I'd rather be sitting in the car reading a book than yelling at him. It accomplishes the same goal and my blood pressure is lower.

[Plateau Mama]

I do think for some kids the EF issues tie into control. I don't personally know your son, but his sense of independence is very strong. I agree that yelling helps nothing, and probably upsets your other children even though they are not getting yelled at. Again, he'd get to the car if that's where his electronics are. He may not be able to follow through three steps ahead to the fact that getting to school on time leads to good grades. But I bet he can get to the car to get his phone.

I will take you up on that bet. He doesn't really care about his phone. Daughter yes, son no. Putting the phone in the car won't hurry him along because he knows whenever he manages to get there it will be there. The phone/computer aren't what makes him late. You know the book "The Pokey Little Puppy"? That's my son, only his book would be titled "The Pokey Little Puppy walks thru Molasses."

[prairiewindmomma]

Anytime my ds is upset, his limbic system kicks in and rational thought (including the processing of auditory directions) stops. Keeping things calm allows him to process through all of the steps he needs to to get out the door (put on scout uniform, grab book, find shoes, find socks, put on shoes, regrab scout book, head towards door).

[busymama7]

I don't have time to read the whole thread but oh yeah. I have this child. Well really two of them.

 

One thing is I don't let them get away with saying they weren't breaking the rule. The 2am thing would be met with "nice try" and the consequences enforced. Say very very little and ACT. But he doesn't actually think he wasn't breaking the rules. He's just testing. So draw the line and ACT. Talk less act more is my mantra. These kids do not respond to reason. They just keep digging their heels in and pushing to see how much they can get away with.

[Seasider]

That kind of chicanery and deliberate obtuseness would make me say you know, this electronics stuff is causing friction. We are on an electronics break. Try again in February.

Agreed.

[SereneHome]

Have you read the book "Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child?" I have a rule negotiator and the advice in this book really helped. With kids like this you have to be very specific about exactly what is expected, very specific about consequences, and always follow through.

 

Hugs. I know how exhausting it can be. Funny thing is, this kid is a great rule follower outside the home. She would never give grief to a teacher, other mom, etc. But with dh and I, everything is up for argument in her mind.

 

Wow, if you didn't say "she", I would have thought you are talking about my oldest!

[SereneHome]

I haven't read the thread beyond OP, so if this has been mention or totally doesn't apply - sorry

 

The first thought that popped into my head would be to say to him "oh, well, if you consider 2am morning time that's great.  There are all kinds of tasks and responsibilities I can assign to you for morning time.  Here is the list.  Enjoy!"

 

I am very good at finding all kinds of counter points to many kind of arguments, so I can go round and round with the best of them.  But yes, it is so so very exhausting!!!!!  And not something I want to be doing with my kids :(   But I have a very strong suspicion that I will have to with my oldest for years to come

[LostSurprise]

My oldest (18) is very much like this. 

 

What works best for us is to always keep everything very calm. Don't take it personally. 

 

To always have very clear consequences for actions. There's no fight, the consequence is just enacted. Consequences are as natural as possible. (If you're late, if his being late takes time away from you, he has to give that time to you later. Ditto for siblings. If you have to do extra work because he fails in his responsibility, he owes you work equal in either time or work missed. Ditto for siblings. If he is cranky because he stayed up all night, then he needs to spend some time alone/nap/read/exercise...this extends to any non-vital outside meetings or groups.)

 

Discussion can happen, but you have to recognize when they are not making anything work. I stop discussions when they start to get cyclical and I tell my son I'm stopping because the conversation is not growing or changing either of us. We don't need to repeat ourselves. He can talk more only if he has something new to say. 

 

 

This son has always had the greatest belief in himself. He learns things from his own experience. He doesn't accept teaching. Because of this I try to allow reasonable negotiation whenever possible. Encourage thinking about the issue beforehand and making a proposal. Be open to some changes. Be honest about your apprehensions and ask him for solutions. Ask him for appropriate consequences when an agreement is broken.  

 

Best of luck with the Executive Function issues. My son has that as well. I've tried many things and at this point all I can do is give him information and hope when he has the right experience or motivation he'll know where to access the information I give him now. 

 

 

[Anne in CA]

I will take you up on that bet. He doesn't really care about his phone. Daughter yes, son no. Putting the phone in the car won't hurry him along because he knows whenever he manages to get there it will be there. The phone/computer aren't what makes him late. You know the book "The Pokey Little Puppy"? That's my son, only his book would be titled "The Pokey Little Puppy walks thru Molasses."

LOL, you know him best. These kids are trying, but in some ways they also have amazing potential as other posters have mentioned. 

[zoobie]

But being the voice of God actually makes the issue worse and makes us later. Anytime voices are raised, even slightly, he goes into melt down mode. By calmly telling him we are waiting in the car he actually hustles more. No clue why but he does.

 

I can tell him we are leaving in 5 minutes and to start getting ready but he doesn't take action until we are all in the car waiting on him. Maybe it's a control thing but I don't think so. Even if it is I'd rather be sitting in the car reading a book than yelling at him. It accomplishes the same goal and my blood pressure is lower.

My blood pressure raisers are 13 and 4. I want to run away thinking of a combined 20 more years of this. It's so exhausting. Hormones have made the 13 year old (female) more unpredictable. Engaging makes it so much worse. Mine does stuff like lose her glasses and gets so flustered that we have to help find them and then she abuses us the whole time.

 

And I followed/follow GOYB parenting when they're little. It doesn't mean their temperaments or EF or anxiety or whatever is any different, unfortunately.

 

ETA: quoting because I agree/sympathize in case it wasn't clear!

Edited January 24, 2017 by zoobie

[Lanny]

You are correct IMO that you have a serious problem on your hands.  Life is full of rules one must follow. Prisons are full of people who did not follow the rule (the law).  The majority of aircraft accidents are caused by pilots who did not follow the rules they were taught. Employers have rules their employees must follow.  Those are not things your DC can ignore now or when he is an adult. I don't know how you can change him. Possibly a Child Psychologist with a lot of experience in Behavioral problems.  

[Plateau Mama]

My oldest (18) is very much like this.

 

What works best for us is to always keep everything very calm. Don't take it personally.

 

 

son has always had the greatest belief in himself. He learns things from his own experience. He doesn't accept teaching. Because of this I try to allow reasonable negotiation whenever possible. Encourage thinking about the issue beforehand and making a proposal. Be open to some changes. Be honest about your apprehensions and ask him for solutions. Ask him for appropriate consequences when an agreement is broken.

 

Best of luck with the Executive Function issues. My son has that as well. I've tried many things and at this point all I can do is give him information and hope when he has the right experience or motivation he'll know where to access the information I give him now.

 

I wouldn't mind all of this nearly as much if he learned from his mistakes but he doesn't. It's the same $&@! Problems over and over again.

You are correct IMO that you have a serious problem on your hands. Life is full of rules one must follow. Prisons are full of people who did not follow the rule (the law). The majority of aircraft accidents are caused by pilots who did not follow the rules they were taught. Employers have rules their employees must follow. Those are not things your DC can ignore now or when he is an adult. I don't know how you can change him. Possibly a Child Psychologist with a lot of experience in Behavioral problems.

 

im afraid to try another Psychologist. Last time we sent him to one he became so much worse. It got to the point I was actually afraid to leave my youngest alone with him for any amount of time. He was 11ish so youngest was 5. Edited January 24, 2017 by Plateau Mama

[Lanny]

How old is he now?

 

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[Plateau Mama]

How old is he now?

 

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14

[Lanny]

I know that your previous experience with him going to a Psychologist did not improve his behavior. Because he is almost of legal age I would be very worried. Are there any men that he respects? Does he have any role models? What does he plan to do after his 18. Th birthday?

 

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[katilac]

You mentioned a psychologist, but has he had actual evaluations? Looking for ADD, executive function issues, ASD, other stuff? 

 

If there are specific issues going on, you need to know. You're not likely to get where you want to go without a map. 

[purplejackmama]

No words. I'm just sending you hugs and a warm cup of coffee. (With or without Baileys. Your call ;) )

Edited January 24, 2017 by purplejackmama

[JonesinIndiana]

I haven't read all the responses. My BP was rising as I read the original post. That behavior sends me over the edge

every. single. time.

 

I would hand him a toothbrush and tell him to start scrubbing the bathroom(s) any time he tried to argue with you about rules. You would have clean bathrooms and that will make up for the incessant arguing. Almost.

 

You might also have him repeat what you stated the rule is. Let's face it, he knows what the rule is and that he's breaking the rule. He also knows there's a good chance you and your DH's will be divided in your approach to this behavior or, better yet, give up entirely.

[Anne in CA]

Okay, I misread your OP. I did not understand the age of this young person. Somehow I thought he was nine. This young person is no longer a child, but a very powerful young teen. That is very different. A 14yo having melt downs and making everyone wait for him in the car is getting scary. I understand that you are worried about seeing a pro, and he may well be smarter than most pros. You need more help than I was thinking. Mediation and extra security measures for the electronics are not good enough now. This is not a kid who doesn't like rules. This is a teen running the show. How much he means it, you don't know. He is going to get bigger for the next five years at least. You need more help than the board can give you now. As we know from other threads, help is HARD to get. Start getting help now. I am not trying to be cold, but this is getting more worrisome. 

[EKS]

Well, I once took a computer away from my older son when he was 15--forever.  It's still in my closet.  At that time he didn't have a phone.  About a year later he bought a laptop with his own money.

 

My 14 yo (who doesn't have the issues his brother did) knows that if I take away one device, I take away all of them (so every single thing with a screen), and it won't just be for a day--it's for a minimum of a week, and usually more like a month. I've found that it takes that long to do a reset.

[Plateau Mama]

I know that your previous experience with him going to a Psychologist did not improve his behavior. Because he is almost of legal age I would be very worried. Are there any men that he respects? Does he have any role models? What does he plan to do after his 18. Th birthday?

Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk

  he plans on going to college. not sure what that will look like yet. Maybe CC.

You mentioned a psychologist, but has he had actual evaluations? Looking for ADD, executive function issues, ASD, other stuff? 

 

If there are specific issues going on, you need to know. You're not likely to get where you want to go without a map.

 

 he had appointments for testing in March. I've been trying for almost 4 years to get him tested but my husband insisted I was overreacting.  

I haven't read all the responses. My BP was rising as I read the original post. That behavior sends me over the edge

every. single. time.

I would hand him a toothbrush and tell him to start scrubbing the bathroom(s) any time he tried to argue with you about rules. You would have clean bathrooms and that will make up for the incessant arguing. Almost.

You might also have him repeat what you stated the rule is. Let's face it, he knows what the rule is and that he's breaking the rule. He also knows there's a good chance you and your DH's will be divided in your approach to this behavior or, better yet, give up entirely.

. I've tried to have him scrub in exchange for arguing. Didn't go so well. We do have him repeat the rule both when it's made and every time he doesn't follow it. That's when he starts debating that he didn't actually break it or he misunderstood etc. I try to just tell him I'm not discussing it and either what the punishment is or dad will be up with his punishment and leave. (we are trying to have dh lay down all the punishments.). We also have him write it down and sign it so he can't tell us later we didn't tell him.

[Plateau Mama]

No words. I'm just sending you hugs and a warm cup of coffee. (With or without Baileys. Your call ;) )

Thank you.

[Desert Strawberry]

  I will have to check out that book. Thx. And yes, outside of the home people just afore him. He also is the first one to point out when others aren't following rules. He is 14.5. He goes to school (because I could no longer deal with the arguing/debating every little thing. That being said I'm the one making sure he gets out the door I the morning and making sure homework is done etc.   . I did point that out and he started down the line well it was technically morning so I didn't break the rules. I told him he knew what we expected and I wasn't going to play that which just set explosions off all morning.

Well, if 2 am is morning, I'd be mightily tempted to wake him for the day at 2 am, and get him started on some extra chores. You know, to help him fill all those extra hours he has while he isn't sleeping. 

[Plateau Mama]

Okay, I misread your OP. I did not understand the age of this young person. Somehow I thought he was nine. This young person is no longer a child, but a very powerful young teen. That is very different. A 14yo having melt downs and making everyone wait for him in the car is getting scary. I understand that you are worried about seeing a pro, and he may well be smarter than most pros. You need more help than I was thinking. Mediation and extra security measures for the electronics are not good enough now. This is not a kid who doesn't like rules. This is a teen running the show. How much he means it, you don't know. He is going to get bigger for the next five years at least. You need more help than the board can give you now. As we know from other threads, help is HARD to get. Start getting help now. I am not trying to be cold, but this is getting more worrisome.

he already towers over me at almost 6ft. I am waiting until his evaluations are done. I am hoping they will give us some insight that will help guide us to the appropriate help because the last time I tried to get help the rest of the family was terrified. For right now I'm just trying to get by with as little stress to the rest of the family.

 

I don't want to paint him as a bad child. When he's not in a mood he's a very sweet boy. I just never know which boy is going to show up. One minute he is sweet & helpful the next minute he's yelling as us stomping away and hitting things (always things, never people). I do not think that is his intent is to cause chaos to the family. I really think there is some sort of issue that is causing these issues. I just have no clue how to fix them. And it seems that his moods last longer and longer. Days/weeks/etc.

[maize]

If the irritable moods are getting longer, it is possible there is some degree of depression or bipolar issue going on. Irritability is a very, very common symptom in males.

[maize]

Are his moods more problematic in winter? It would be worth getting his vitamin D levels checked and maybe looking into light therapy if you don't live somewhere with lots of year round sunshine.

[Tap]

DD18, is the type of person who if you put in a box, would explore every, single inch of the box.  She would hang from the top, go under the flaps. She would touch, feel and taste every little bit  of it. She will put a hole in the box to see what it is made of, and sit on top of the box (with one leg dangling inside-so she is still in the box).  She isn't trying to cause trouble. she just is a very curious person and is only confined by true boundaries.  She is highly intellegent, and ADHD.  

 

If you put my son in a box, he would sit there obediently and read or play a game.

 

If you asked them to review the box experience....My daughter would tell you how to build a bigger, better box! And how to add accessories to make it more fun!

Ds would say "yep, it was a box." 

 

This is how they both live their lives.  DS is content, DD is always designing a new way to do things.

 

 

 

DD18 was hard to raise, because if I didn't give her a firm rule, then she would always go further in every direction than I would have preferred. The problem is that you can't think of every little boundary she needed LOL  She is the type who honestly needs a bit more freedom to explore.  But you had to be right there to wrangle her in when she went a bit too far.  She wasn't trying to break boundaries. Because Honestly, I hadn't said that there even was a boundary (because I couldn't imagine you would have to say the obvious, outloud.) 

 

Over time, instead of trying to define her world so much, I let her set more of her own boundaries, but then asked her to define them herself.  In the case of your  phone example, instead of telling her it goes away at 10pm and can be accessed in the morning, I would tell her what my goals were and ask her to help set up the rules to go with it. I would say "if I make the rule it will be xzy but would you like to help me define it so it works better for both of us".  Because she was part of the process, she would tell me the loopholes she saw and help us come to a rule that worked.  Then, I rarely had to enforce it, because she understood it better.  

 

I have very, very few rules in my house that I have to enforce, because she helped to design the few that we do have. LOL 

 

What works for us, is that if she does break a rule, like breaking curfew, the 1st offence is a warning and I tell her what the consequence will be next time.  Then if she does it again, the consequence is enacted.  I rarely set a time limit on the consequence, so I can vary it based on future needs. Consequences are usually at tightening of the rule that was broken.  So, a curfew issue, means the curfew gets earlier.  A 3rd consequence to the same offence, is a doubling of the first.  So an even earlier curfew and double the amount of time.  

 

At 18yo, she knows she is the person who loves learning new things and is the first to try something new.  She is the person who says "lets go!".  She is vivacious and energetic. She is very smart and wants to always learn something new.  I have never heard her use "I don't know how to do xyz" as a reason to not try to learn it now.  

 

I finally learned to stop expecting her to follow unwritten, seemingly obvious rules.  Because to her, they honestly didn't exist.  She wasn't being a brat.  She wasn't being devious.  She just doesn't see the natural barriers that other people see.  Once I stopped trying to put up barriers and stopped trying to define her world so much, we were both happier.  I still needed to say "please don't use the beam on the top of the Rainbow swing set for a balance beam" but I learned to laugh it off and realize that she just discovered something new.... and some how, some way, she will likely use that skill at sometime in her life.

 

BTW...Her response to being told to come down...was to remind me that I used to pay a gym to let her walk on skinnier beams. that were almost as high--compared to her height ratio at the time,

~~ she didn't fall and she has safely jumped from that height before

~~ she was getting extra value out of our swing set

And she couldn't possibly hurt the swing set by doing it!.

 

So, I say...." all those things are true.  And I still don't want your hands or feet on the top beam again. You have had that experience, so lets move on please". 

[Katy]

Not to be harsh, but it sounds like the problem is that you as parents refuse to enforce your own boundaries because it inconveniences you.  You can lock up the phones and make an exception for the rare time your DD has to get up at 5am.  It doesn't sound like horrible EF issues to me (and we're a family where everyone has ADHD), it sounds like he consistently pushes your boundaries because more often than not, when he pushes he gets everything he wants.

 

Even completely normal teen boys without EF issues have trouble not using electronics and games at inappropriate hours.  If he has no respect for the fact you all need sleep, you change the rule so that the very next time he's using electronics at night, he loses ALL screen time for a week.  The second time, two weeks.

 

As an alternative, plan out in advance that starting next week, every time he cannot get up on time, he has to go to bed 90 minutes earlier.  When a 14 year old has to go to bed at 8 pm as if they are 8 years old, they tend to get a little more fastidious with getting out of bed on time.

 

IDK... maybe I misunderstand.  Perhaps you actually meant this to be a whiney, JAWM (just agree with me) post where you complain about the kid who's driving you crazy and don't want answers.  But it seemed like you did, and you're ignoring this advice for the same reason your son ignores your rules - you don't want to.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Katy

[Plateau Mama]

Not to be harsh, but it sounds like the problem is that you as parents refuse to enforce your own boundaries because it inconveniences you. You can lock up the phones and make an exception for the rare time your DD has to get up at 5am. It doesn't sound like horrible EF issues to me (and we're a family where everyone has ADHD), it sounds like he consistently pushes your boundaries because more often than not, when he pushes he gets everything he wants.

 

Even completely normal teen boys without EF issues have trouble not using electronics and games at inappropriate hours. If he has no respect for the fact you all need sleep, you change the rule so that the very next time he's using electronics at night, he loses ALL screen time for a week. The second time, two weeks.

 

As an alternative, plan out in advance that starting next week, every time he cannot get up on time, he has to go to bed 90 minutes earlier. When a 14 year old has to go to bed at 8 pm as if they are 8 years old, they tend to get a little more fastidious with getting out of bed on time.

 

IDK... maybe I misunderstand. Perhaps you actually meant this to be a whiney, JAWM (just agree with me) post where you complain about the kid who's driving you crazy and don't want answers. But it seemed like you did, and you're ignoring this advice for the same reason your son ignores your rules - you don't want to.

Wow, just wow. I'm not even sure how to respond to your judgemental post.

 

I had a response typed, but I'm not even going to try. Go ahead and think I'm a whiney, lazy, parent. I don't really care.

[MomatHWTK]

DD18, is the type of person who if you put in a box, would explore every, single inch of the box.  She would hang from the top, go under the flaps. She would touch, feel and taste every little bit  of it. She will put a hole in the box to see what it is made of, and sit on top of the box (with one leg dangling inside-so she is still in the box).  She isn't trying to cause trouble. she just is a very curious person and is only confined by true boundaries.  She is highly intellegent, and ADHD.  

 

...

 

Was this kid. Grew up to go to law school. Raising these kids. We work on achieving our goals not punishing communication fails. One of mine does have underlying issues and takes medication. I do too. ADHD is a bear!  Unmedicated, I have a terrible time sleeping. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by MomatHWTK

[Pronghorn]

Perhaps all negotiating and arguing should be done in writing. Perhaps that would be less satusfying to the child.

[Desert Strawberry]

My earlier post was a bit jokey. Now a serious one. Please take what I'm about to say gently, with love. I do understand what you are dealing with and how you are feeling. Being outmatched and worn down by a kid is a terrible feeling. I want you to be able to get a handle on this and feel better, in every way. 

 

This boy is steering the ship. He is in control. You are planning your move based on his responses. He is determining your behavior. That's not ok. For either of you. I think you already know all of this. THat's why you are posting this. 

WHether we all judge you as a weak parent who lacks a spine or if you have tried everything and nothing works, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you are out of options. What you are doing isn't working. You need help. 

He is being evaluated in March. Good. Excellent. Also take him to his primary care provider. Speak to them alone and talk about your concerns. There may very well be a medical cause for this behavior. Chronic illness is insidious. You don't see it coming. It just becomes the way things are. Some or all of this could be resolved by eliminating a food, or taking a supplement or medication. Probably not, but definitely rule it out. 

He is 14. You are almost done raising him. One way or another, this is going to be over soon. Take some deep breaths. You are doing everything you can, mama. You just have to hold on. 

[LostSurprise]

I wouldn't mind all of this nearly as much if he learned from his mistakes but he doesn't. It's the same $&@! Problems over and over again. im afraid to try another Psychologist. Last time we sent him to one he became so much worse. It got to the point I was actually afraid to leave my youngest alone with him for any amount of time. He was 11ish so youngest was 5.

 

If it isn't important to them--they don't learn it. We shield our children from a lot of things. Other things matter to us (clean rooms, non-surly attitudes) and not them (at least right now). 

 

If our sons are similar in personality, changing does happen, but it happens over years and years. (Yeah, I know, not necessarily what you want to hear. There are no easy answers here.)

 

You are correct IMO that you have a serious problem on your hands.  Life is full of rules one must follow. Prisons are full of people who did not follow the rule (the law).  The majority of aircraft accidents are caused by pilots who did not follow the rules they were taught. Employers have rules their employees must follow.  Those are not things your DC can ignore now or when he is an adult. I don't know how you can change him. Possibly a Child Psychologist with a lot of experience in Behavioral problems.  

 

Are we talking about someone who has no respect for any rules, or are we talking about someone who is generally good with rules but questions his parents and their procedural/scheduling/livingtogether rules? There is a difference. 

 

From earlier in the thread I'm seeing a young man more like my own. Good with societal and school rules ('the big rules') and terrible with house rules and procedures ('the little rules'). They may even be a bit rigid about 'big' rules (always pointing out the rules to siblings, known to be a 'good' kid) but constantly question the 'little' rules and their parents.  They just don't understand what the big deal is. It's not important to them personally so they may fight it tooth and nail as little plots to keep them in-line. 

 

I think part of this is the EF problems. A lot of the procedural rules are not natural to them. It's much harder work than it is for us. As they hit adolescence you also get a mix of shame (can't admit to themselves the flaws or it overwhelms them so they stuff it down even when faced by logic) and independence (they can't tell me what to do). 

 

 

Like I said, there is a difference. I can only speak to the second situation, not to someone with an Oppositional Disorder. BTW, if you're working on specific behaviors it usually helps to use a behavioral psych. That would mean you would be attending together. Standard counselors can help these kids with dealing with their emotions but that's not always the main problem. If their frustrations stem from a physical component, they have to deal with that or nothing changes. That may be why you didn't see any improvement. 

[Plateau Mama]

.

 

.

 

He is being evaluated in March. Good. Excellent. Also take him to his primary care provider. Speak to them alone and talk about your concerns. There may very well be a medical cause for this behavior. Chronic illness is insidious. You don't see it coming. It just becomes the way things are. Some or all of this could be resolved by eliminating a food, or taking a supplement or medication. Probably not, but definitely rule it out.

 

He is 14. You are almost done raising him. One way or another, this is going to be over soon. Take some deep breaths. You are doing everything you can, mama. You just have to hold on.

I have talked to his Dr. There is nothing medically wrong with him. I had him tested for food allergies 3 years ago an there were actually several issues. We have avoided those and, while it may not seem like it, things improved a lot.

[Plateau Mama]

If it isn't important to them--they don't learn it. We shield our children from a lot of things. Other things matter to us (clean rooms, non-surly attitudes) and not them (at least right now).

 

If our sons are similar in personality, changing does happen, but it happens over years and years. (Yeah, I know, not necessarily what you want to hear. There are no easy answers here.)

 

 

Are we talking about someone who has no respect for any rules, or are we talking about someone who is generally good with rules but questions his parents and their procedural/scheduling/livingtogether rules? There is a difference.

 

From earlier in the thread I'm seeing a young man more like my own. Good with societal and school rules ('the big rules') and terrible with house rules and procedures ('the little rules'). They may even be a bit rigid about 'big' rules (always pointing out the rules to siblings, known to be a 'good' kid) but constantly question the 'little' rules and their parents. They just don't understand what the big deal is. It's not important to them personally so they may fight it tooth and nail as little plots to keep them in-line.

 

I think part of this is the EF problems. A lot of the procedural rules are not natural to them. It's much harder work than it is for us. As they hit adolescence you also get a mix of shame (can't admit to themselves the flaws or it overwhelms them so they stuff it down even when faced by logic) and independence (they can't tell me what to do).

 

 

Like I said, there is a difference. I can only speak to the second situation, not to someone with an Oppositional Disorder. BTW, if you're working on specific behaviors it usually helps to use a behavioral psych. That would mean you would be attending together. Standard counselors can help these kids with dealing with their emotions but that's not always the main problem. If their frustrations stem from a physical component, they have to deal with that or nothing changes. That may be why you didn't see any improvement.

. Away from us he never gets in trouble. His teachers, scout leaders etc all say how sweet and respectful he is. The boys in his class are very rude and disrespectful. He notices it a lot and it bothers him. The school has realized he is one of the good ones and has him do all the new student visits and such.

 

That being said, I have had close friends ask if I've had him tested for Oppositional Disorder.

[Amy in NH]

How do you parent a child who thinks rules are optional? Or who looks for all the loopholes? Honestly I'm exhausted. Consequences don't work with this child.

 

Here is our current issue (among many).

 

We recently enacted a rule that says no laptops in bedrooms. All electronics (phones etc) must be out of rooms by 9 pm. So Friday, child was in his room on both laptop & phone at 10. Lost both Saturday. This morning his phone is on his bed. When I ask him why (knowing it was put in the classroom at 9 last night) he tells me he got it at 2am and wasn't breaking the rules because it was morning. He know we don't want them in their rooms while they are sleeping, we've talked about that but since we just said "till morning" and technically 2am is morning he argued that he didn't break the rules. Then it turned into my fault he couldn't sleep.

 

I could give nonstop examples but this is our entire life. Him spending his days ignoring our rules and then when caught telling us all the reasons he didn't break them, telling us he didn't understand the rules, or telling us the rule is rediculous and it shouldn't be a rule.

 

What can we do? My husband is perfectly content going around and around with him. I'm exhausted and want to do something drastic but do won't let me.

 

 

It sounds to me like somewhere (in toddlerhood?) he learned that rules are optional, boundaries can be pushed, and arguing works to help him get his way, because someone gave in to him a few too many times or didn't follow through on logical consequences.

 

For this particular problem: Put Qustodio on all the devices and set the time restrictions.

 

For other problems: Only a few rules (choose your battles), and make sure they are very clearly defined.

 

No arguments when a rule is broken.  Punishment is swift, severe, and dispassionate. 

[Lanny]

Okay, I misread your OP. I did not understand the age of this young person. Somehow I thought he was nine. This young person is no longer a child, but a very powerful young teen. That is very different. A 14yo having melt downs and making everyone wait for him in the car is getting scary. I understand that you are worried about seeing a pro, and he may well be smarter than most pros. You need more help than I was thinking. Mediation and extra security measures for the electronics are not good enough now. This is not a kid who doesn't like rules. This is a teen running the show. How much he means it, you don't know. He is going to get bigger for the next five years at least. You need more help than the board can give you now. As we know from other threads, help is HARD to get. Start getting help now. I am not trying to be cold, but this is getting more worrisome. 

 

+1    Exactly.    Because of his age, I suggest looking into the idea of sending him to a Military School, if they would take someone with his behavioral problems. If he has *any* criminal background (vandalism, theft, assault, robbery, etc.) then I would suggest looking into a "boot camp" for juvenile criminals.  This is potentially a VERY dangerous situation for the OP and her family. Also, he is probably headed for terrible things in the future.  He needs to change and he needs to change now.

[Lanny]

he already towers over me at almost 6ft. I am waiting until his evaluations are done. I am hoping they will give us some insight that will help guide us to the appropriate help because the last time I tried to get help the rest of the family was terrified. For right now I'm just trying to get by with as little stress to the rest of the family.

 

I don't want to paint him as a bad child. When he's not in a mood he's a very sweet boy. I just never know which boy is going to show up. One minute he is sweet & helpful the next minute he's yelling as us stomping away and hitting things (always things, never people). I do not think that is his intent is to cause chaos to the family. I really think there is some sort of issue that is causing these issues. I just have no clue how to fix them. And it seems that his moods last longer and longer. Days/weeks/etc.

 

If your family was terrified, you probably had extremely valid reasons to be terrified. As I wrote a few minutes ago, possibly him attending a Military School, or a "Boot Camp" would help him change. However, if he has Psychiatric issues, those need to be Diagnosed properly and treated. He should have an evaluation by an M.D. who is a Board Certified Psychiatrist, who can refer him to the proper Psychologist, for thorough testing and evaluation and diagnosis.  

[Paige]

I think he sounds like a normal teenager. He's like a toddler shouting no. He's exploring his autonomy. Some children are more compliant and easy-going but you get the pleasure of one who's not! 

 

I'm not perfect, so my "what to do" list is idealistic and what I'd do in a perfect world if I had perfect patience and self control. Not what I necessarily always do with my own teenager who is very similar to yours.

 

- Don't take it personally. Try to rejoice that he's going to become a strong minded person. 

 

- Set your rules, then enforce the rules with no rancor. You say no phone in bed and he has a phone in bed? Say, sorry, son. The phone is mine for a while. Take it, give it back at the determined time, rinse and repeat. Expect to rinse and repeat. Remember when they kept getting into the dog food when they were little? They were persistent little guys....

 

-Trust in time and the benefit of maturity. He's 14, not a little monster, and no matter what you do, he will probably turn out fine. Your goal is to survive with your relationship intact. The parenting research supports that there's little you can do or not do that will drastically ruin him.

 

-Spend special time with him. He's more likely to follow your rules if he is feeling warm fuzzies towards you. 

 

- Listen to him. Maybe he needs less rules. He's 14, not 7. Perhaps some things can be negotiable now. Maybe you know that he will make bad choices if given the freedom, but maybe the natural consequences are something you can live with and you can let him learn the hard way. 

 

It's hard.  :grouphug:

Edited January 24, 2017 by Paige

[Lanny]

. Away from us he never gets in trouble. His teachers, scout leaders etc all say how sweet and respectful he is. The boys in his class are very rude and disrespectful. He notices it a lot and it bothers him. The school has realized he is one of the good ones and has him do all the new student visits and such.

 

That being said, I have had close friends ask if I've had him tested for Oppositional Disorder.

 

I read this and was surprised, happy and puzzled.  Wonderful that he behaves well in School and in Scouts.  That surprised me and that is good and wonderful.

 

However, the other post, where you wrote that your family was terrified of him, when he went to a Psychologist, sometime ago, is extremely dangerous and is terrifying. He is running the show in your family. That needs to stop or he needs to live somewhere else, before tragedy strikes your family.

 

That close friends suggested you have him tested for Oppositional Disorder would indicate to me that they have seen problems, either when they were in your home or elsewhere. Or, that you have told him things that lead them to suggest that to you.

 

I would give him the benefit of the doubt, until you can have him evaluated, thoroughly, by a Board Certified Psychiatrist.  If he has Physical Medical issues (which you wrote that your doctor said is not the case) those should, if possible, be treated.  A Psychiatrist is an M.D. who can evaluate both his Physical Health and his Mental Health.  Also, there might be some Physical issue that is causing his Mental Health problems.

 

He  probably learned, as he grew up, what he can get away with, within your family, and that he cannot get away with that kind of behavior, in school or in scouts.  The problem is within your family and how he has learned how to control you.

 

OT: Teenagers get tired later at night than adults do.   Ideally, they should be allowed to wake up later in the mornings and begin school later in the mornings. Some schools now start the school day 30 minutes or an hour later, to try to help the teenagers with this. that is normal for a teenager.  

 

If he woke up at 2 A.M. and got the laptop, that is when he should be sleeping soundly and if he is awake at that hour, frequently, that is something additional for the Psychiatrist to look into.