Is it arrogant to think of yourself as 'clever'?

[EmmaNZ]

Discussion between DH and I this evening. One side states that 'cleverness' is something that others should ascribe to you, and even thinking that you are 'clever' is extremely arrogant. The other side states that for some people being 'clever' is just the way you were made, so how can you 'unthink' it.

 

To be clear this is not about saying anything out loud to others, simply about how a person might view themselves.

 

Whose side are you on ;)

[Garga]

It's disingenuous to pretend you don't know when you're clever. People who are smart or clever know it.

 

Now, you don't go around being smug about it or acting superior or even telling people about it. Usually, as you said, it's something you're born with and you had no control over it. It's a gift. It's not something you earned. So, no need to feel superior.

 

It's similar to being born with a gorgeous singing voice or stunning good looks. You can enjoy the gift you were given (your voice, your looks, your cleverness), but you shouldn't be obnoxious about it.

 

 

ETA: after reading other comments about the definition of "clever", I was thinking "smart." I don't know if it makes a difference or not. To me, they're the same.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Garga

[maize]

Is it arrogant to think of yourself as athletic? How about handsome? Musical? Cheerful? Confident?

 

I don't see that clever should be treated differently from any other personal characteristic.

 

(I do think we have social taboos associated with acknowledging intellectual superiority, which is probably behind the "arrogant" point of view.)

[Arcadia]

Arrogant :lol:

I heard a homeschooler said her kid was too clever for public school. She was also projecting an atitude that she was too clever to converse with other parents :rolleyes: Everyone just left her to her own musings and socialized with other people.

 

ETA:

In my family, if a male relative thinks he is handsome, he gets called a peacock.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Arcadia

[EmmaNZ]

Arrogant :lol:

I heard a homeschooler said her kid was too clever for public school. She was also projecting an atitude that she was too clever to converse with other parents :rolleyes: Everyone just left her to her own musings and socialized with other people.

Yes but this isn't about what you say to other people. That is a different thing.

[Arcadia]

Yes but this isn't about what you say to other people. That is a different thing.

Some people project how they think in their mannerism even when they don't say.

[SJ.]

Is the Doctor arrogant?

[EmmaNZ]

 

Some people project how they think in their mannerism even when they don't say.

 

Agreed. But is it the thought that is arrogant or the action?

[Garga]

It sort of is. A humble person ( the opposite of arrogant) would know that, no matter their expertise, achievements or IQ, there are a million and one things at which one is not 'clever'. And so they would not define themselves that way.

 

I don't think a person can be globally 'clever' and I don't know if it's in a person's best interests to define themselves that way. "I am someone for whom advanced maths comes quickly and easily" is a different take from "I'm clever". It's more specific, more realistic, and leaves room for all the ways in which we are not clever.

Maybe the OP isn't meaning globally clever? Some people are "clever with their hands" and do wonderful carpentry, for example.

[SamanthaCarter]

My dh is pretty clever, and thinks of himself as such, but he's about as far from arrogant as anyone can get. 

[maize]

It sort of is. A humble person ( the opposite of arrogant) would know that, no matter their expertise, achievements or IQ, there are a million and one things at which one is not 'clever'. And so they would not define themselves that way.

 

I don't think a person can be globally 'clever' and I don't know if it's in a person's best interests to define themselves that way. "I am someone for whom advanced maths comes quickly and easily" is a different take from "I'm clever". It's more specific, more realistic, and leaves room for all the ways in which we are not clever.

High global IQ is a thing, though it's actual significance is debatable. It certainly makes certain types of learning and problem solving easier.

 

Does it make a person better/more worthy than other people? Nah. But neither do beauty or athleticism or a good sense of humor or confidence.

 

Should a person define themselves exclusively as clever? That's probably not very healthy. But to recognize it as one personal characteristic?

 

I can't see why not.

 

Failure by gifted/clever people to recognize their giftedness actually seems more likely to lead to problems to me--when other people fail to learn or understand things as quickly as them they're more likely to ascribe negative characteristics to that person--they're not trying, they don't care, they're lazy. I think it is healthy to be aware of both our individual strengths and our individual weaknesses.

[EmmaNZ]

We were discussing the of cleverness that goes with doing well at school, finding class easy, doing well on tests and exams etc. Not gifted. Not genius. Just top or near the top of a school classroom.

[EKS]

I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking of yourself as being clever or having any other positive attribute.  There is something wrong with boasting about it.

[Tanaqui]

I think judging other people for thoughtcrime is incredibly arrogant. You can think of yourself however you like, just so long as you aren't rude.

[Arcadia]

But is it the thought that is arrogant or the action?

Since no one I know is a mind reader, thinking that you (general) are clever does not affect anyone unless your actions reflect that you consider others less.

 

As for being top of the class or even the entire school/college, that is an achievement even if unearned. But there is no need to rest on your laurels. So I am curious why the need to even ponder if you are clever.

 

Like my kids and younger nieces would show off something they did and jokingly asked "Am I smart?" but they will run off before you can even think about how to answer.

 

My hubby and many relatives has won academic scholarships as students. They just think they are lucky the smarter ones in their cohort were not studying as hard or being as careful in the exams.

[scholastica]

Not if it's true!! As my dh always says "It's not bragging if you can do it."

[Aura]

Is the Doctor arrogant?

Depends on which one. LOL I'd say I've seen him be arrogant at times.

 

But he is clever. :001_smile:

[Guest]

Nope.

 

Knowing your own strengths and weaknesses can never be anything other than wise.

 

Don't be a jerk about it, though. Obviously.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's disingenuous to pretend you don't know when you're clever. People who are smart or clever know it.

 

 

 

I don't know.  To me someone who is very smart knows just how smart they aren't.  There is so much that even the smartest people don't know and if they don't know that they aren't that smart.  They might be able to say they know a lot about a particular subject, but not in general.  KWIM?

[gardenmom5]

saying "that was very clever of me  to think of ___ that way". is not arrogant.

 

saying "I'm so much more clever than ___, they'd never have thought of it". is arrogant.

 

to fairly assess your strengths and weaknesses - is not arrogant, and is actually healthy.

 

to refuse to recognize a trait you possess becasue to do so means you're arrogant - is not healthy.  (reminds me of my grandmother.  whenever I dared to think something nice about myself, her voice was in my head tearing me down. she had the same belief - to think well of yourself was arrogant.  she was a nasty piece of work.)   it could also be considered false modesty, or worse.

[redsquirrel]

 I also think it means by what you associate with 'clever'.  For example, my MIL might say that I am smart (she says this about me because I read books, btw). I always reply that I'm not smart, I'm just clever.  To me that is a better assessment.  I know too many really smart people to say that I am particularly intelligent, what I am is clever. Sometimes I'm so clever I outsmart myself, lol...

 

If that is arrogant, then I guess I can live with that.

Edited September 24, 2016 by redsquirrel

[Guest]

I don't know. To me someone who is very smart knows just how smart they aren't. There is so much that even the smartest people don't know and if they don't know that they aren't that smart. They might be able to say they know a lot about a particular subject, but not in general. KWIM?

Knowing you don't know every thing, and _not_ being smart are two different things, though.

[Guest]

What's the alternative?

 

If you know you're clever, are you supposed to have an eternal Sunshine of the spotless mind procedure to erase the synapses where that info is stored?

[maize]

I agree, but 'clever' doesn't really seem to do the trick.

 

Knowing that you have a very large working memory, or unusually high processing speeds - that's one thing. And probably (might ?) lead to understanding of those without those gifts.

 

But no-one on this planet is clever at all the things. Someone might have extreme, outlier intelligence, but it doesn't mean they are clever at relationship, or that their visual artworks are clever, or that they have a clever mind for business or politics, or that they are clever on the field...

 

Clever seems like a pretty useless word to me. If it means 'extremely high scores on X number of cognitive attributes, and incredible fluid intelligence', why not say that ? If it means 'I study hard and things at school come easily to me ?' say that. If it means 'I have a hunger to learn' say that. If it mean 'I love dance so much and I am progressing through my exams very successfully, say that.'

You seem to have different associations with the word clever than I do.

 

To me it tends to mean "good at figuring things out" and that can apply to narrow or wide fields.

 

If clever means "good at figuring things out" to me, and I felt I was good at figuring things out, is there any reason I should use the definition rather than the term it defines when considering my traits?

[Guest]

No, but one can develop perspective around that cleverness, and possibly focus the majority of one's attention on the areas where one need to strive and struggle, rather than on one's identity as 'clever'. I guess that's where the humility comes in.

The op said nothing about someone blathering on about it.

 

And i did say no one should be a jerk.

[Guest]

If you are interested in smoothing the response of others. "I'm good at figuring stuff out" is soooo different in tone (and subtext) than "I'm clever."

 

lol, maybe this is a sign of my non-cleverness, but what's the point of telling yourself you are clever ? I can't see the point. You don't grow any from dwelling on what comes easily and naturally - you grow from giving attention to those areas where you are not necessarily quick to learn.

Who is dwelling?

 

Can't you think a think without dwelling on it?

 

I've had people jump down my throat for saying the words "I have good self esteem." In context. Don't people want ppl to have good self esteem? Evidently not everyone does because letmetellyouwhat! The very mention of not feeling terrible about your core self is enough to make some ppl think you're arrogant!

 

Which is neither here nor there. I'm not particularly clever, but if I were, it'd be ok to know that about myself. Like, I know im strong for a lady. That's good. I like it. It's a THING I think about myself.

 

And again, how to UN-know something???

Edited September 24, 2016 by OKBud

[Guest]

Yeah, I guess I still don't see the point, whether you are just thinking it to yourself, or shouting it out on the street corner. It's very fixed mind set, and all I see, frankly, are the problems that can arise from identifying that way.

 

Other people may have a more positive attitude towards it, of course.

I am not seeing how knowing one positive trait you happen to possess means you have a fixed mindset???

[maize]

If you are interested in smoothing the response of others. "I'm good at figuring stuff out" is soooo different in tone (and subtext) than "I'm clever."

 

lol, maybe this is a sign of my non-cleverness, but what's the point of telling yourself you are clever ? I can't see the point. You don't grow any from dwelling on what comes easily and naturally - you grow from giving attention to those areas where you are not necessarily quick to learn.

Here are a couple of dictionar definitions of "clever", along with synonyms:

quick to understand, learn, and devise or apply ideas; intelligent.

"a clever and studious young woman"

synonyms: intelligent, bright, smart, astute, sharp, quick-witted, shrewd

 

skilled at doing or achieving something; talented.

"he was clever at getting what he wanted"

synonyms: skillful, dexterous, adroit, adept, deft, nimble, handy

 

It seems to me that you are uncomfortable with the word clever itself, but would be ok with the definitions and maybe some synonyms?

 

Does clever as a word have associations of arrogance in your mind, separate from its definitions? Words can certainly develop such associations.

 

I do think your earlier point about fixed mindset is a good one to consider.

[Greta]

If it's true, then it's not arrogant to recognize it. We don't have to lie to ourselves to avoid being arrogant. We do need to avoid developing an overinflated sense of just how good our good qualities are. :)

[8circles]

I think "clever" is defined differently "across the pond".  Maybe?  I know it's used differently when I hear it on British TV - like I understand what they mean but I'd never use it in that context.

 

IDK.

 

I think it's important the emotions behind the thought & what exactly you think it means.

[Outdoorsy Type]

I think it's only arrogant if you feel that your cleverness makes you infallible.

[Guest]

I was just listening to a podcast of all comics, and someone mentioned that if they see someone had written that they"have a good sense of humor" on their dating profile, they absolutely will not speakk to them, no matter how appealing they otherwise seem.

 

"I'm clever" seems like it would fit along those same lines.

Edited September 24, 2016 by OKBud

[wapiti]

I generally hear the term "clever" used to describe an idea more commonly than to describe people.  Is OP in New Zealand and is the term a little different there?  I'm guessing OP just means smart/intelligent.

 

To answer the question, IMO no, it is not inherently arrogant to believe oneself to be smart and/or intelligent.  Arrogance would involve a failure to heed the limitations of that, e.g. within a particular body of knowledge or in comparison to other people.

[wapiti]

But when she thinks of herself as 'clever' it feeds into the idea that her cleverness is a fixed attribute, something she was born with. In a way it is. But in another way, she needs to learn that 1. her cleverness isn't a guarantee of success (lots of clever people have this association, if you don't, awesome) and that 2. working hard is as valuable as her inherent cleverness.

 

This is getting into Carol Dweck's work, Mindset, I think it's called.  It can get complicated (IMO).

[Guest]

Well, I can give you an example.

 

My dd17 is clever. Take the dictionary definition, and she's it. Lovely.

 

But when she thinks of herself as 'clever' it feeds into the idea that her cleverness is a fixed attribute, something she was born with. In a way it is. But in another way, she needs to learn that 1. her cleverness isn't a guarantee of success (lots of clever people have this association, if you don't, awesome) and that 2. working hard is as valuable as her inherent cleverness.

 

Additionally, that working hard and struggling are not a sign of failure, but of success. That one must rely on effort and persistence, because they are, in the end, of greater personal value.

 

 

Now, you personally may not have those associations, in which case, great! But many many people who are encouraged to identify as 'clever' through the kind of praise and environmental feedback they receive, do.

 

I don't tell dd that she isn't clever, or ignore the things she does well, but I don't encourage her to focus too much on inherent luck of the draw traits.

Lol, no one is telling me I'm clever, rest assured. I don't have any associations with it at an, outside of being amused by clever people.

 

But a clever person doesn't need to act like they don't know they are clever when they do. That's false modesty. Which is weird and gross.

 

Anyone who dwells on anything too much probably shouldn't. That's what 'too much' means.

[Garga]

Yeah, I guess I still don't see the point, whether you are just thinking it to yourself, or shouting it out on the street corner. It's very fixed mind set, and all I see, frankly, are the problems that can arise from identifying that way.

 

Other people may have a more positive attitude towards it, of course.

I have a feeling that the word "clever" has a very different connotation to you than it does to me. To me, it's a harmless word. It's gentler than, "I have high processing speed," for example.

 

To me, it just means that you're smart enough in whatever way to be good at solving some sort of problem.

 

The women in Arabian Nights stories were often clever. Ali Babba's servant is described as a clever woman when she realized the guest was the leader of the gang of thieves. Because she was clever and had the boiling oil poured on the hiding thieves, she rescued the family from being murdered.

 

Since I grew up reading lots of Arabian Nights stories, I suppose clever means insightful, smart, and seeing something that others missed. It doesn't mean you're smart across the board. No one assumes the servant was off doing calcluations in her spare time. But when it came to knowing the family was in danger, she was clever.

 

I can see where it's good to know where your exact strength lies (seeing through deceit, high processing speed, etc,), but using the general term "clever" has no negative connotation to me at all. As I said before, it's milder and a humbler word than "smart" or "intelligent."

 

I don't really understand when you say it's a fixed mindset. Do you mean that if someone has superior abilities in some area and calls themselves clever that they are deluding themselves into thinking they have superior abilities across the board? And that's the danger you see?

[8circles]

Lol, no one is telling me I'm clever, rest assured. I don't have any associations with it at an, outside of being amused by clever people.

 

But a clever person doesn't need to act like they don't know they are clever when they do. That's false modesty. Which is weird and gross.

 

Anyone who dwells on anything too much probably shouldn't. That's what 'too much' means.

 

IDK about your middle point.  I've known people who genuinely don't know that they have certain positive attributes & it isn't false modesty (which I agree is weird & gross), it's genuine humility.

[maize]

My association is that going through life being encouraged to see one's self as 'clever' is not all it's cracked up to be.

 

My other discomfort is its binary nature - if I am clever, then someone else is stupid.

 

Whereas, focusing on the idea that we all have strength and weaknesses, and we are all capable of effort, seems less binary.

Acknowledging any personal strength necessarily involves recognizing that some people have less of that strength. Should we never admit to ourselves our areas of strength?

 

I don't think the OP intended to present a scenario in which a person solely defines themselves by their cleverness, just one in which they recognize it as one of their characteristics. I really can't see anything inherently arrogant about that; it certainly doesn't preclude acknowledging a variety of relative strengths and weaknesses in oneself and others.

 

Nor to my mind does it preclude developing a growth mindset, though I can see the risk you are referring to of a person defining themself as clever and setting themself up to not recognize the value of hard work and/or to become too easily discouraged by failure.

Edited September 24, 2016 by maize

[Garga]

Oops. I stepped away from my laptop mid-typing and didn't see the rest of the posts where Sadie gave her reasons why she doesn't like the word clever. People posted before I came back and hit "post." (Not very clever of me, huh? :) )

 

I see your point now. I see why you don't like calling people clever. I'm not sure I entirely agree with you, but I see your point and understand what you mean about not letting yourself get overconfident because you're "clever."

 

There's a balance, I suppose.

[Guest]

IDK about your middle point. I've known people who genuinely don't know that they have certain positive attributes & it isn't false modesty (which I agree is weird & gross), it's genuine humility.

"When they do."

[nd293]

It's not a term to describe myself to others, but yes, I'm 'clever', although I usually think of it as 'smart'. The kids are too. That's something I make sure they know. They have a particular 'advantage' or gift and I expect them to work hard to make the most of it. They're raised to honestly recognise their strengths and weaknesses and work to accentuate the one and ameliorate the other (and not just in intellectual abilities).

 

Dd15 really hasn't got that message yet, and I'm finding that difficult to deal with. She think I should act like the average parent and be happy with average results, but if her ability is above average I expect that to be reflected in her results. Unfortunately she's come late to that conversation because of homeschooling and Montessori, and it's a hard sell.

[happi duck]

For some reason some words feel like they should not be *said* of oneself...I have no rhyme or reason for determining that...just feels :)

 

I don't think someone using it would be arrogant but more like a faux pas, kwim?

 

Clever seems like it makes my imaginary list.

 

Number one on my list:

Don't describe yourself as quirky!

 

I don't know why it bugs me but it does...I guess I'm just quirky that way! ;)

 

.

Edited September 24, 2016 by happi duck

[Ausmumof3]

It's funny to me clever means able to come up with great solutions to real life problems. Like you were really clever to move that couch to that location it works really well. Or that better homes and gardens house renovation was a really clever idea. It is more about being innovative than having a high iq. High iq I'd use the word smart for.

 

Overall, I don't think it's wrong to understand your strengths as long as you know that they were given to you not earned. And that you acknowledge the wide variety of gifts. I'm iq smart but terrible at organisation and many practical skills so I have a high appreciation for those skills in other people. That said, I suspect if it hadn't been for school I would never even know I was "smart" in that sense. And I suspect that some of that feeling of smartness exists only because I had a great start in life with parents that read to me and no worries about where the next meal was coming from.

 

So basically I don't have a problem with people acknowledging their strengths as long as they are equally aware of other people and also of their own weaknesses.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am clever.  To me, that simply means that I have a certain amount of 'street smarts' even if that street is not an inner city street.  I can navigate in my surroundings especially if it is an academic surrounding.  I'm not the most clever.  My cleverness helps me but it isn't everything.  It certainly doesn't give me any moral superiority.  If you picked me up and plunked me in a totally different surrounding then my cleverness will most likely disappear because I will not know how to navigate without some trial and error.  I have built up some skills in how to watch and learn though which hopefully would help me to some degree. 

 

I am also smart.  I am not the smartest.  I am not smart in all subjects.  It doesn't give me any moral superiority.  It simply means that I can understand some things quickly.

 

I want my children to be both smart and clever.  I can help that to some degree by teaching them how to learn and exposing them to things that will build their knowledge base. But I also recognize that I teach the children I have.  They have limitations just as I do.  And they have assets as well.  I try to shore up the limitations and teach them how to recognize and use their assets.   Isn't that partly what classical education is about? 

 

I can say this in print to (mostly) strangers.  I would not say this to people in real life because of social rules about that sort of thing.  Recognizing that is part of being clever.  ;)  (I also don't really care if people online think badly of me making what I feel is a mostly objective assessment of myself.  So it gives me some courage to simply share that assessment.) 

 

I think that all sorts of people are smart and clever. 

[8circles]

"When they do."

 

Ok, mea culpa.  My eyes missed that part.  I blame my aging lenses.

[Arcadia]

We were discussing the of cleverness that goes with doing well at school, finding class easy, doing well on tests and exams etc. Not gifted. Not genius. Just top or near the top of a school classroom.

How old? As in a young child, a teen or an adult?

Also is it thinking as in like checking a box off a skills questionnaire or thinking as in pondering?

 

I guess if my college senior nephew were to tell me he was thinking about whether he is clever, my first thoughts would be whether he is too free waiting for exams results or having a mild identity crisis. If it is my preK niece, I would think she heard the word in conversation somewhere and is curious.

 

I do have two schoolmates that were very upset when they were not the top of the cohort. They both thought they were secured in the top position. One got over it with great sportsmanship (she was 12) while the other was horribly mean, shocking the entire class with her behavior (she was 15).

[J-rap]

To me, "clever" includes a certain creativity.  That makes it more subjective and open to opinion, which in turn does make it seem a little more arrogant to say it out loud about yourself.  On the other hand, if someone really is a certain thing -- such as smart or beautiful or funny or clever, and it's obvious, then I guess you can't blame a person for realizing it about themselves.  But still, it's somehow different to say it out loud, at least without clarifying it.

 

Even if I consistently scored very high on something that is completely measurable (and not just subjective) such as math tests, I think I'd still have a hard time saying "I'm smart" out loud, because that makes it seem like it's very important, whereas in the whole scheme of life, other things are so much more important.   It would be different to say, "I seem to consistently score well on math tests" though.  Because that's more about what you do than what you are.

 

I'm not sure I'm making sense!

Edited September 24, 2016 by J-rap

[EmmaNZ]

Well that was fun :) I went to bed and woke up to read lots of interesting responses.

 

Just in case anybody is wondering, we are using the word clever in the same way you guys (Americans) use the word 'smart' I think.

 

To give a bit more context, the child in question is preteen. He was remarking that he thinks he would be sorted into Slytherin because he is 'clever, cunning and a bit brave'. It was a statement, not a gloat. A passing remark. One parent thought it was concerning, to define yourself as 'clever'. The other was more concerned about the cunning part (but that is another thread!).

 

I totally agree about the mindset part. Much better to use adjectives like 'hard-working', 'diligent', meticulous'. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Clever makes me think of McGyver.

 

 

[Guest]

I think people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater irt to GROWTH MINDSET ALL THE TIME NOTHING IS FIXED.

 

Obviously, the bath water's gotta go, but stick your arm down in there and dredge the poor baby up first!
:

Let’s legitimize the fixed mindset. Let’s acknowledge that (1) we’re all a mixture of fixed and growth mindsets, (2) we will probably always be, and (3) if we want to move closer to a growth mindset in our thoughts and practices, we need to stay in touch with our fixed-mindset thoughts and deeds. If we “ban†the fixed mindset, we will surely create false growth-mindsets. (By the way, I also fear that if we use mindset measures for accountability, we will create false growth mindsets on an unprecedented scale.)

 

 

~Carol Dweck