A poll about affairs

[8circles]

In my current life, if DH were having an affair, he would be taking money and time away from the family. He'd have to be doing it while I'm home taking care of our small children and homeschooling our older ones. If he were off having an affair with someone else while I'm here changing diapers and teaching long division for the fiftieth time, that would be hugely disrespectful to me on multiple levels. Our mutual decision was for me to do this while he goes to work. Using the time away from our family for an activity that degrades the family would be a separate violation of trust and respect from the sexual infidelity. That would be true if he were gambling or off doing drugs. An affair is never free. There are costs. Time that is spent on the affair has to come from somewhere unless the person has a time turner. Right now, neither of us has "free time" that doesn't impact the other person because someone has to be with the kids. Money that is spent has to come from somewhere, and he didn't come into the marriage with a personal inheritance. 

 

 

 

Boiling it down to the people who would want to know value sex over everything else isn't accurate. The actual sex part would be only one reason an affair violates his marriage vows to me. We aren't religious, but we both take those vows very seriously. We both have clearly articulated to one another that we are monogamous and that includes more than just physical sex. We've had numerous discussions about the impact of affairs when friends of ours have gone through them. If he were lying to me about everything he's told me over 21 years and having an affair himself, any trust, respect, and intimacy in my marriage would be a facade. Our marriage would be fundamentally broken, and I would want to know that. Whether we would be able to rebuild the marriage is a separate question. It doesn't automatically follow that an affair would end things, but I would have to know in order to be able to make that informed decision. And in my life, so very many actions I take every day are based on the information I currently hold. Him being unfaithful to me would change my informed consent on every little thing. I wouldn't be staying home wiping butts while he's having sex with someone else. I would NOT have sex with him if I knew he'd had sex with someone else hours before, and he knows that. It would be a 24/7 deception.  

 

If the actual sex part doesn't matter and you reject the equation of sex with trust, respect, and intimacy, why would it matter if you knew? The entanglement of the issues is a huge deal to me, and that's why I want to know. If they weren't valuable to me, the knowledge of an affair wouldn't change my life at all. 

 

I think this is a great illustration of how everyone's answer is based on their specific situation.  My life isn't like yours so applying my desires to yours or yours to mine won't work because our needs are different.

 

As to the bold?  Because I live here in the land of unhealthy sex ideas and that would be difficult.  It would be difficult living with people judging me for staying (if that's what I did), judging my marriage.  As I said before, in my specific situation, I would be mad at DH for not being discrete, because that would be directly disrespectful.  In a country where there is so much judgement about sex it is difficult to live by my different beliefs.  Making that public would be extremely hard.

 

And because of this judgement I feel compelled to say that I have absolutely no reason to believe that my DH is now having nor has ever had an affair.  Not even a secret one.  Just in case anyone was starting to feel pity towards me.

[Guest]

I think it goes back to our puritanical roots and we've just continued down the path of putting sex on this pedestal above all else as *the* thing. Purity movement, modesty movement, Duggar-type Xians can thrive here. I believe it's all connected and all stems from the same unhealthy focus on sex.

 

That isn't to say that I don't value sex and would be a-ok with my DH having an affair. It isn't a black & white issue and it's way more complicated.

 

And I agree with you that sex CAN be those things on the list, but I don't believe it's ALWAYS those things.

Roger. I thought you were saying it's unhealthy for relations to be part and parcel of martial trust, intimacy, etc.

 

Then yes I agree with you here.

 

----

 

Anyway marriage is inherently private. I just don't want outsider input that I didn't explicitly ask for.

 

I mean on a personal level, not talking in generalities on the board.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by ~ d9n

[Valley Girl]

I don't know. I think confessing- when it's something that will deeply hurt another person- is overrated. If it's not something that will ever happen again, why would I hurt my spouse just to make myself feel better? To me, that seems like a shitty thing to do. I feel like if I screwed up to that degree, it would be my burden to bear.

 

Yeah, I think I agree with you on this. (I'm still chewing on it, though, because this is a really complex question.) For a one-time thing he deeply, deeply regrets, which is never repeated, and for which he's taken actions (getting tested, etc.) to make sure the wife is not at risk, yeah. I think the guilt and related emotions should be the cheater's to bear. He shouldn't get to clear his conscience at the cost of pain to someone else. To me, that is an incredibly selfish thing to do.

 

If he tells her, he gets to feel free for having confessed. She is now burdened with having her life implode and also being pressured, even if not overtly, to "forgive" him. Even when a spouse just shares that he/she's been tempted, that introduces a whole element of insecurity into the marriage that wasn't there before. Maybe it'd be better to leave that part out and focus on the specific issue in the marriage that's the problem.

 

But on the other hand, people have a right to make informed choices about their life. And sometimes that involves hearing things we'd rather not.

 

Such a messy, messy, question with no right answer...

[Crimson Wife]

Of course. But don't you agree being faced with real consequences causes people to wake up and BE remorseful?

 

We're Gen Xers- divorce and broken homes were all around us growing up, including in our own extended families (though my parents and his are still married). It's not like the consequences of an affair are some big secret. If it takes getting caught with his pants down to feel bad about it, then he isn't truly remorseful and any promises to change are just empty words IMHO.

 

[FaithManor]

I do not know if I would want to know or not. There are downsides to either option.

 

I suppose the rub is I can't know if I want to know or not for sure unless I knew what it was. And there's no stuffing that cat back in the bag.

 

It's hard to see it happening though unless dude has a timeturner hidden somewhere because there just aren't that many hours in the day. Also, my husband is the worst liar in the world. There is no way he could construct a ruse and effectively sell it.

Yup. Dh would need a time turner, teleporter to beam him, and a profoundly better poker face than he currently possesses!

[ktgrok]

I don't think it follows that cheating means there isn't trust respect or intimacy. 

 

But if someone is lying to their partner, isn't that a sign of a lack of respect? How do you respect someone you are continously lying to? And isn't lying disrespectful? And how do you have true intimacy with a person who you hide a large part of your life from?

[ktgrok]

 If he were off having an affair with someone else while I'm here changing diapers and teaching long division for the fiftieth time, that would be hugely disrespectful to me on multiple levels. Our mutual decision was for me to do this while he goes to work. Using the time away from our family for an activity that degrades the family would be a separate violation of trust and respect from the sexual infidelity. That would be true if he were gambling or off doing drugs.

 

Boiling it down to the people who would want to know value sex over everything else isn't accurate. The actual sex part would be only one reason an affair violates his marriage vows to me.

 

 And in my life, so very many actions I take every day are based on the information I currently hold. Him being unfaithful to me would change my informed consent on every little thing. I wouldn't be staying home wiping butts while he's having sex with someone else. I would NOT have sex with him if I knew he'd had sex with someone else hours before, and he knows that. It would be a 24/7 deception.  

 

 

 

Yes, this. It's not just about the sex, it's about the whole thing. And the dishonesty and disrespect, rather than the sex itself. 

[Crimson Wife]

But if someone is lying to their partner, isn't that a sign of a lack of respect? How do you respect someone you are continously lying to? And isn't lying disrespectful? And how do you have true intimacy with a person who you hide a large part of your life from?

 

The bolded gets back to what type of adultery it is. If the adultery IS a big part of the person's life (an on-going relationship with emotional entanglement), that is a very different situation than a brief, purely physical encounter. Both are disrespectful and dishonest, but the former is a much more problematic thing than the latter.

[Ravin]

See, I would want someone to tell me so that I could blink at them owlishly and then tell them my spouse's personal life isn't their business. Because if they don't know us well enough to know that such an occasion is not a secret to begin with, then it really isn't their business.

[LucyStoner]

Scarlett, we know from the many threads you have started over the years about infidelity, divorce and remarriage that infidelity is the only thing that warrants divorce AND allows one to remarry in your particular marital code. Frankly, your view makes basically no sense to me as there are things besides adultery that could theoretically damage my marriage beyond repair. I understand where your view comes from. I don't need to quiz you or express my disbelief that you would leave over an affair but not other things that in my view are far worse. Because I get that we have different opinions.

 

Just accept that other people have different lives, values, priorities and views.

 

What kind of women wouldn't want to know about an affair? I imagine there are all sorts of people who'd opt to spare themselves the pain in an otherwise happy marriage. Just like there are all sorts of women who stay with men who aren't great fathers or who are less than mediocre in some other aspect of their marriage. And all sorts of men who stay with women who have all sorts of faults. Marriage is complex.

 

What you see as having low standards or no line in the sand could conversely be seen as having a very high bar for what would merit the end of a lifetime commitment.

Edited August 14, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, we know from the many threads you have started over the years about infidelity, divorce and remarriage that infidelity is the only thing that warrants divorce AND allows one to remarry in your particular marital code. Frankly, your view makes basically no sense to me as there are things besides adultery that could theoretically damage my marriage beyond repair. I understand where your view comes from. I don't need to quiz you or express my disbelief that you would leave over an affair but not other things that in my view are far worse. Because I get that we have different opinions.

 

Just accept that other people have different lives, values, priorities and views.

 

What kind of women wouldn't want to know about an affair? I imagine there are all sorts of people who'd opt to spare themselves the pain in an otherwise happy marriage. Just like there are all sorts of women who stay with men who aren't great fathers or who are less than mediocre in some other aspect of their marriage. And all sorts of men who stay with women who have all sorts of faults. Marriage is complex.

 

What you see has having low standards or no line in the sand could conversely be seen as having a very high bar for what would merit the end of a lifetime commitment.

Just a point of clarification.....I do think there are worse things than an affair that people can do to each other that would destroy a marriage for me. My religious convictions would prevent me from remarrying but trust me there are several things that could destroy my marriage.

 

As for me quizzing anyone....this is a public message board. Participation is voluntary. No one is required to even acknowledge my questions much less answer them or them explain those answers further. i did start this poll because over the years I have heard a few people here mention they wouldn't want to know and I wondered how man of those people were typical.

 

On Bolts thread I gave my opinion to her question about whether she should tell the wife. A few others gave a different opinion. That is the way the board works.

 

I am appreciative of people willing to offer their thoughts on the matter. As always I learned a few things about human nature.

[Audrey]

Scarlett, we know from the many threads you have started over the years about infidelity, divorce and remarriage that infidelity is the only thing that warrants divorce AND allows one to remarry in your particular marital code. Frankly, your view makes basically no sense to me as there are things besides adultery that could theoretically damage my marriage beyond repair. I understand where your view comes from. I don't need to quiz you or express my disbelief that you would leave over an affair but not other things that in my view are far worse. Because I get that we have different opinions.

 

Just accept that other people have different lives, values, priorities and views.

 

What kind of women wouldn't want to know about an affair? I imagine there are all sorts of people who'd opt to spare themselves the pain in an otherwise happy marriage. Just like there are all sorts of women who stay with men who aren't great fathers or who are less than mediocre in some other aspect of their marriage. And all sorts of men who stay with women who have all sorts of faults. Marriage is complex.

 

What you see has having low standards or no line in the sand could conversely be seen as having a very high bar for what would merit the end of a lifetime commitment.

 

Should be reposted a hundred more times. 

[Caroline]

I really like the way you stated this.

 

Scarlett, we know from the many threads you have started over the years about infidelity, divorce and remarriage that infidelity is the only thing that warrants divorce AND allows one to remarry in your particular marital code. Frankly, your view makes basically no sense to me as there are things besides adultery that could theoretically damage my marriage beyond repair. I understand where your view comes from. I don't need to quiz you or express my disbelief that you would leave over an affair but not other things that in my view are far worse. Because I get that we have different opinions.

 

Just accept that other people have different lives, values, priorities and views.

 

What kind of women wouldn't want to know about an affair? I imagine there are all sorts of people who'd opt to spare themselves the pain in an otherwise happy marriage. Just like there are all sorts of women who stay with men who aren't great fathers or who are less than mediocre in some other aspect of their marriage. And all sorts of men who stay with women who have all sorts of faults. Marriage is complex.

 

What you see has having low standards or no line in the sand could conversely be seen as having a very high bar for what would merit the end of a lifetime commitment.

[madteaparty]

Should be reposted a hundred more times.

QFT

[goldberry]

  If my DH is cheating and I think my marriage is great, I don't want to know that my DH is cheating.  Because my marriage is great.  He isn't taking time away from our family.  He isn't taking money away from our family.  He isn't witholding intimacy from me, emotional or physical.  So if he is able to figure out how to do all that & squeeze his penis in for some additional action somewhere else - I don't want to know.

 

I would feel awful thinking that my marriage was great but unbeknownst to me my husband was cheating.  I don't think husbands cheat in a great marriage, therefore, that would mean my marriage was not great, I just didn't know about it.

 

If you (general you, not you, 8) or your husband think that parties can cheat in a healthy marriage, then that should be discussed at the beginning.  I could understand that more than I can understand introducing that concept into a marriage after the fact or without one party knowing.  If a spouse really believes it is still healthy, then why would it not be out in the open?  There is something about keeping it hidden that implies someone knows it's not healthy or okay.

Edited August 14, 2016 by goldberry

[ktgrok]

 

 

Why are people so invested in trying to point out the wrongness of someone else not feeling exactly the same about fidelity ?

 

No one is trying to point out the wrongness, they are trying to discuss, understand others' point of view, and explain their own. 

[8circles]

No one is trying to point out the wrongness, they are trying to discuss, understand others' point of view, and explain their own. 

 

Sometimes people say they "don't understand" but what they really mean is "I don't agree and here's why you're wrong".  Many posts are like this.

 

Sometimes people just won't understand no matter what anyone says and repeated asking of people to explain comes across as badgering.   I think we've reached this point.

[ktgrok]

Honestly, I think both sides of this issue have posts coming across that way, as superior or whatever. But for the most part, I think people genuinely are curious.

[madteaparty]

This is weary now and i'm bowing out.

You don't have to understand something for it to be true, to someone somewhere. Trust ;)

Edited August 14, 2016 by madteaparty

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, we know from the many threads you have started over the years about infidelity, divorce and remarriage.......

This comment bugged me all afternoon. So I looked at my posting history. I had to go back to January of 2013 before I found a thread started by me about affairs or divorce or remarriage. You make me sound obsessed about it, I am not.

 

What you see as having low standards or no line in the sand could conversely be seen as having a very high bar for what would merit the end of a lifetime commitment.

And this bugged me too. You first chastise me for my hard line about it....then tell me how you are superior for putting your commitment above fidelity.

 

Believe it or it I am good with people handing their marriages how they see fit.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

We're Gen Xers- divorce and broken homes were all around us growing up, including in our own extended families (though my parents and his are still married). It's not like the consequences of an affair are some big secret. If it takes getting caught with his pants down to feel bad about it, then he isn't truly remorseful and any promises to change are just empty words IMHO.

 

I think the world you describes contributes to affairs. It is made to seem normal.

[Scarlett]

thanks all for taking part in my poll. Even to the ones who chose a slam to me over their actual answer. ;). It made me giggle so that part is good.

 

One thing I wanted to address is that several of you said that in your youth you would have divorced over an affair in a heartbeat. Even though the poll wasn't about whether you would,divorce or not...I still finding it interesting....bcause in my youth I was able to easy forgive a ONS......It was confessed to me....and I felt he was remorseful....and I was able to just let it go. Then our best friends got divorced after a painful 5 years of him cheating on her repeatedly with many women. After that my then husband and I talked about it....and I remember saying to him.....if you cheated on me now it would,be with the full knowledge and understanding of the pain this brings to all.

 

So after 26 years of marriage....after watching my best friend near destroyed by her husbands adultery....and after I gave birth to our son....and after we bought a beautiful home together and his career was going well.....at that point......there was no where to go,except divorce when he decided to cheat on me. He was 45 years old.....he knew better and he had a lot to lose and he did it anyway. How could I tolerate that? And as a side point.....he thought I would tolerate it because we had been married so long....and had a child together...and a beautiful home...and great income and I got to stay home and raise our son and homeschool him. He thought I valued all of that more than faithfulness. I guess he just picked the wrong mate....because apparently there are those out there who do.

[8circles]

thanks all for taking part in my poll. Even to the ones who chose a slam to me over their actual answer. ;). It made me giggle so that part is good.

 

One thing I wanted to address is that several of you said that in your youth you would have divorced over an affair in a heartbeat. Even though the poll wasn't about whether you would,divorce or not...I still finding it interesting....bcause in my youth I was able to easy forgive a ONS......It was confessed to me....and I felt he was remorseful....and I was able to just let it go. Then our best friends got divorced after a painful 5 years of him cheating on her repeatedly with many women. After that my then husband and I talked about it....and I remember saying to him.....if you cheated on me now it would,be with the full knowledge and understanding of the pain this brings to all.

 

So after 26 years of marriage....after watching my best friend near destroyed by her husbands adultery....and after I gave birth to our son....and after we bought a beautiful home together and his career was going well.....at that point......there was no where to go,except divorce when he decided to cheat on me. He was 45 years old.....he knew better and he had a lot to lose and he did it anyway. How could I tolerate that? And as a side point.....he thought I would tolerate it because we had been married so long....and had a child together...and a beautiful home...and great income and I got to stay home and raise our son and homeschool him. He thought I valued all of that more than faithfulness. I guess he just picked the wrong mate....because apparently there are those out there who do.

 

"So, thanks for humoring me in my attempt to seem interested in other people's perspectives.  Some of you have really backwards ideas.  Here's another chance I have at telling you why you are wrong and my perspective is right.  And I'm gonna take it :D.  Too bad for my ex-DH I wasn't a chump, not like some of you ladies."

[Scarlett]

"So, thanks for humoring me in my attempt to seem interested in other people's perspectives. Some of you have really backwards ideas. Here's another chance I have at telling you why you are wrong and my perspective is right. And I'm gonna take it :D. Too bad for my ex-DH I wasn't a chump, not like some of you ladies."

Again not my feelings or my words and really what the heck.. You can give your perspective but I can't give mine? I simply said *I* felt less like forgiving after a long marriage than I did early in marriage.

 

If you feel like a chump that is on you. That isn't even a word I use in thought or speech.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Scarlett

[8circles]

Again not my feelings or my words and really what the heck.. You can give your perspective but I can't give mine? I simply said *I* felt less like forgiving after a long marriage than I did early in marriage.

 

If you feel like a chump that is on you. That isn't even a word I use in thought or speech.

 

Oh, come on.  You chuckled, admit it.  Or giggled.  Maybe it was another giggle.

Edited August 15, 2016 by 8circles

[Scarlett]

Oh, come on. You chuckled, admit it. Or giggled. Maybe it was another giggle.

At what? At the votes for Scarlett thinks she is an expert...yes I did.

 

 

The rest? I think some of you hold a very contemptuous opinion of me...and it makes me sad not chuckly.

[Joker]

thanks all for taking part in my poll. Even to the ones who chose a slam to me over their actual answer. ;). It made me giggle so that part is good.

 

One thing I wanted to address is that several of you said that in your youth you would have divorced over an affair in a heartbeat. Even though the poll wasn't about whether you would,divorce or not...I still finding it interesting....bcause in my youth I was able to easy forgive a ONS......It was confessed to me....and I felt he was remorseful....and I was able to just let it go. Then our best friends got divorced after a painful 5 years of him cheating on her repeatedly with many women. After that my then husband and I talked about it....and I remember saying to him.....if you cheated on me now it would,be with the full knowledge and understanding of the pain this brings to all.

 

So after 26 years of marriage....after watching my best friend near destroyed by her husbands adultery....and after I gave birth to our son....and after we bought a beautiful home together and his career was going well.....at that point......there was no where to go,except divorce when he decided to cheat on me. He was 45 years old.....he knew better and he had a lot to lose and he did it anyway. How could I tolerate that? And as a side point.....he thought I would tolerate it because we had been married so long....and had a child together...and a beautiful home...and great income and I got to stay home and raise our son and homeschool him. He thought I valued all of that more than faithfulness. I guess he just picked the wrong mate....because apparently there are those out there who do.

 

Maybe the difference for some is how those first many years have gone? You say here early on you forgave a ONS. Maybe there were others? Maybe that caused you to always be a bit untrusting of your ex-dh? Maybe it set the tone for the rest of your 26 years and it wasn't a good one? 

 

For me, I would have left in a heartbeat early on but I wouldn't run so fast now after an awesome 19 years. I definitely wouldn't leave now because of what one of our dc are going through. I also wouldn't want to know right now and would not react well to anyone who tried to "help" me by telling. 

 

Of course, I admit I can say this as someone whose spouse works from home and I am a stay home wife/mom so he honestly just doesn't have the time. I've also never had a reason not to trust him so it's not something I give too much thought to but this thread had me running it around in my head that last few days. I finally came to the conclusion that I wouldn't want to know right now and I also wouldn't divorce him. 

[Soror]

I voted I would want to know because I loathe any kind of surprise and really can't stand for people not to be up front with me, even when it is painful. 

 

BUT it has been interesting to read the replies. I can see situations in which I wouldn't want to know for various reasons. The big thing that occurred to me reading the various replies is that marriage in the end is very personal. I thought the point a PP made about the current focus of marriage being centered on romance when that was such a small concern for so much of the world and so much of history was a valid and interesting one. I would guess for the other side of view it might seem insane to leave over "just" an affair when everything else was working well.

 

Of course my dh and I have a marriage in which fidelity is expected by our religious vows. Like others I could never imagine dh having an affair- I mean if he gets a moment free he naps- and I was the one to ask him out I was his first real girlfriend at 23. I think like was said by others if he had a momentary lapse of judgement and it was a one time deal and never again that it wouldn't do much good for me to know, if it was ongoing situation then yes I would want to know. I would be crushed to find that he had shared this part of himself that I thought was just between us with someone else.

Edited August 15, 2016 by soror

[Scarlett]

Maybe the difference for some is how those first many years have gone? You say here early on you forgave a ONS. Maybe there were others? Maybe that caused you to always be a bit untrusting of your ex-dh? Maybe it set the tone for the rest of your 26 years and it wasn't a good one?

 

For me, I would have left in a heartbeat early on but I wouldn't run so fast now after an awesome 19 years. I definitely wouldn't leave now because of what one of our dc are going through. I also wouldn't want to know right now and would not react well to anyone who tried to "help" me by telling.

 

Of course, I admit I can say this as someone whose spouse works from home and I am a stay home wife/mom so he honestly just doesn't have the time. I've also never had a reason not to trust him so it's not something I give too much thought to but this thread had me running it around in my head that last few days. I finally came to the conclusion that I wouldn't want to know right now and I also wouldn't divorce him.

Yes true, the marriage was not good. It had a lot of passion and love and potential....but a lot mistrust on my part. And his I guess. So yes if I had 20 years of a great marriage before the affair.....yes I can see forgiving it. But again this poll was about wanting to know. I would want to know regardless.

[madteaparty]

At what? At the votes for Scarlett thinks she is an expert...yes I did.

 

 

The rest? I think some of you hold a very contemptuous opinion of me...and it makes me sad not chuckly.

I have no opinion on you other than starting a thread with "really who are you people" and then responding to each  "minority post" that you specifically solicited with "Really? I mean really?!"

[Scarlett]

I have no opinion on you other than starting a thread with "really who are you people" and then responding to each "minority post" that you specifically solicited with "Really? I mean really?!"

Well. Sorry that is how you see it. I dont see me responding to each post that way.

[LucyStoner]

This comment bugged me all afternoon. So I looked at my posting history. I had to go back to January of 2013 before I found a thread started by me about affairs or divorce or remarriage. You make me sound obsessed about it, I am not.

The fact that a dozen people liked my post indicates that I am hardly the only person to remember you talking about these topics. It comes up over and over and over.

 

The search feature on this site sucks. I have searched for threads I know I posted or read with detailed search terms and been unable to locate them. You have started and also relentlessly posted in many threads started by others on these topics. I don't know you but I know my memory well enough to know that I have seen your name consistently attached to threads on these matters where, again and again you post in incredulous tones that it's hard to believe others differ from you on these matters.

 

I don't know if you are obsessed or not. I do know, as sure as I know the lyrics for Amy Ray's song "Lucy Stoners" verbatim, that it is a frequent topic for you.

 

 

And this bugged me too. You first chastise me for my hard line about it....then tell me how you are superior for putting your commitment above fidelity.

 

Believe it or it I am good with people handing their marriages how they see fit.

Look, I don't have any set opinion on this matter. I can see why people would come to totally different conclusions when faced with infidelity. If you read this thread carefully you would see that I said in my first post that I don't know which I would prefer for sure and remarked that there are ups and downs to either option. I am not sure what I would want. I do know I have stayed with my husband while working through serious issues but this is not an issue we have had to face. I can imagine scenarios where an affair could result in me showing him the door and changing the gosh darn locks. I can also imagine scenarios where an affair could result in me raising my eyebrow, wryly reminding him that I could have married others, and letting it go without too much stress. I definitely place a value on fidelity as we both expect monogamy in this marriage but I don't make that more important than any other problem that could arise in our marriage. Circumstances would matter.

 

You are not, no matter what you might claim, truly able to see the validity in the other side here. If you did you wouldn't paint me into one position that I literally never espoused. If you wanted information rather than to merely expound on your beliefs over and over you would not feel compelled to respond to so many posts with an argument. Sometimes it's ok to listen than to talk when trying to understand.

 

Two.sides.to.every.coin.

Edited August 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Scarlett]

Maybe you are right. I know in the early years of my divorce I was inconsolable. I was literally unable to eat or sleep and behaved very badly. It made me a terrible-- temporarily--mother. My image of myself during that time is a heap on the floor sobbing.

 

Ftr, I belive in redemption,and forgiveness. I know marriages that today are strong that have survived adultery.

 

I am not as hard nosed and black and white as I sometimes seem.

[LucyStoner]

Maybe you are right. I know in the early years of my divorce I was inconsolable. I was literally unable to eat or sleep and behaved very badly. It made me a terrible-- temporarily--mother. My image of myself during that time is a heap on the floor sobbing.

 

Ftr, I belive in redemption,and forgiveness. I know marriages that today are strong that have survived adultery.

 

I am not as hard nosed and black and white as I sometimes seem.

I've always gotten the impression your ex was a piece of work. I am glad you were able to leave and that you have happily remarried. You didn't deserve to be treated like that by your spouse.

[SproutMamaK]

I would want to know, not necessarily so that I could leave, but so that I could make an informed decision.

Even after reading through the thread, I can understand why some people wouldn't want to know, but it still makes me... not angry, I guess, but sad? Not because I think people who don't want to know are making a bad choice, but just because it's a cold, harsh fact of life. Sometimes, there are no good options when presented with horrible news like that, and it would make life easier for everyone to just not know and ignore the issue and go along with life as usual. The fact is that sometimes standing up for yourself is more trouble than it's worth. I think at the heart of it, that's why people who want to know rail against the thought of not knowing. Because it sucks to have to think about a reality that unfair. We want to think that if only we had all the info, we could make some decisions that end in honesty and clarity and happiness, however the path may wind to get there; being disabused of that notion by reality stinks.

[Crimson Wife]

  The fact is that sometimes standing up for yourself is more trouble than it's worth. I think at the heart of it, that's why people who want to know rail against the thought of not knowing. Because it sucks to have to think about a reality that unfair. We want to think that if only we had all the info, we could make some decisions that end in honesty and clarity and happiness, however the path may wind to get there; being disabused of that notion by reality stinks.

 

The bolded is making an assumption that the cheated-upon spouse is a doormat and cannot stick up for himself/herself. I don't think that is a fair assumption, especially since circumstances can vary tremendously. I have no idea really what is going on in someone else's head.

 

[8circles]

The bolded is making an assumption that the cheated-upon spouse is a doormat and cannot stick up for himself/herself. I don't think that is a fair assumption, especially since circumstances can vary tremendously. I have no idea really what is going on in someone else's head.

 

I totally agree and that stood out to me, too.

 

I would want to know, not necessarily so that I could leave, but so that I could make an informed decision.

 

Even after reading through the thread, I can understand why some people wouldn't want to know, but it still makes me... not angry, I guess, but sad? Not because I think people who don't want to know are making a bad choice, but just because it's a cold, harsh fact of life. Sometimes, there are no good options when presented with horrible news like that, and it would make life easier for everyone to just not know and ignore the issue and go along with life as usual. The fact is that sometimes standing up for yourself is more trouble than it's worth. I think at the heart of it, that's why people who want to know rail against the thought of not knowing. Because it sucks to have to think about a reality that unfair. We want to think that if only we had all the info, we could make some decisions that end in honesty and clarity and happiness, however the path may wind to get there; being disabused of that notion by reality stinks.

Aside from the above mentioned issue, I do agree with much of this.  Life isn't a fairytale.  

[LucyStoner]

I don't think it's sad when people indicate that they would be more likely to stay in a long term marriage than a short one. One or two years in it's easier to separate, especially when there aren't kids in the mix. 10-20+ years in the situation is just more complex, with a shared life history, assets and (more likely) children. Both emotionally and practically, it's harder to untangle your life from someone who you have been with for the long haul. When you have more skin in the game it's just harder to get out. There's more to stay for and perhaps less to be gained in leaving.

 

At this point, I can't see leaving my husband while our kids are still at home unless there was a matter of safety or dysfunction in play. Our sons would be crushed and the work of raising two special needs children is not one I can see facing wholly alone. Don't get me wrong, I love my husband and we are happy and intimate but a large part of our marriage is being a dual parenting unit and personal support system. And being an economic unit where the kids have one parent with them essentially fulltime. Divorce wouldn't just mean the distress of them being sad we were splitting but also the distress of suddenly having to deal with school and aftercare full time...with the ASD factor, this would not be a transition I would expect to be harmless for them and their quality of life. It's not feeling trapped or like I would lose my kids- it's feeling like on a practical level at this point in time, our lives just don't work apart. Now, I could make it work if I needed to due to death or some urgent need for a divorce but I can honestly say I would do a lot to avoid it. It's hard enough around here with two sets of hands.

Edited August 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Rosie_0801]

Of course. But don't you agree being faced with real consequences causes people to wake up and BE remorseful?

 

Not if they're a narcissist or something. Possibly because it's almost impossible to make narcissists feel consequences.

[LucyStoner]

Eh, it's not sad when life is messy...it's just..you know...life.

Exactly. It's the definition of life. If anyone claims to have a perfect life, then I know to back away slowly and get away from someone who is probably either delusional or lying.

 

This weekend I had a disagreement with my husband that made me quite seriously rue the day marriage was invented. Had I answered the poll then I would have said I'd gladly leave my husband for a ham sandwich without even the pretense of infidelity to warrant the divorce. This evening we had one of those nice quiet cozy evenings that reminded me precisely why I married him on a lark nearly 15 years ago. Such is life at times.

[Bluegoat]

I don't have strong feelings about wanting to know or not.  It would depend on too many things. 

 

I can think of plenty of marriages in my extended family where there were affairs, sometimes regular ones, and yet it worked out in the long term, so I am not inclined to discount that as a possibility.  I have an uncle who as a young man would pretty much have sex with anyone he had the opportunity to.  He is older and wiser now, he's been married many years, he's settled into a nice life - unlike my dad who was always faithful but has been married, unsuccesfully, three times. 

 

I don't actually know if my uncle's wife knows about all this, but I have a hard time thinking it would be better for their lives today, as a couple entering retirement, to have separated.

 

I don't have a hard time thinking sexual fidelity is the be all and end all in marriage.  It's what we westerners tend to expect, and I think there are good reasons to prefer that model of expecting fidelity as part of the whole package, but there have been a heck of a lot of times and places where it wasn't always expected, and yet people had good happy marriages and the spouses were really committed to the marriage and each other. In many of those situations, sexual fidelity wasn't a strong expectation going in, which does reduce the breach of trust issue, but it also says to me that the commitment of marriage is not necessarily destroyed by sexual infidelity. 

 

There are people I have spoken to who put the bar of spousal fidelity even higher than that - they expect their spouse to refrain from any significant friendship with a person of the opposite sex.  I find that hard to imagine as well.

 

In a way, it is because we see sexual fidelity as essential that a breach of it becomes such a basic breach of trust.

 

I think we all fail as spouses, sometimes in a one time, limited way, and sometimes in an ongoing way.  But those failures happen in the larger context of a relationship, and I think that larger context has to be kept in the picture as well.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

Fidelity isn't everyone's deal breaker. That's all anyone really needs to know. 

 

You will keep being confused if you try to fit another person's ideas about her marriage into your ideas about your marriage.

 

Why are people so invested in trying to point out the wrongness of someone else not feeling exactly the same about fidelity ?

 

I think to some extent this is just what people do - we try and imagine ourselves holding other opinions or attitudes, it helps us understand other people.

 

I think it's entirely possible to say, I don't feel/think that way, but I can envision how someone could, and that is a better kind of understanding than just accepting the fact that some people evidently have a particular viewpoint.

 

Some people seem to be much better at it, I can usually do it, but once in a while I find someone's response to an issue really perplexing, something I can't wrap my head around.  Often though, when that happens, I would really like to be able to get it, because I feel like I would better understand people that way, and it would lend some logic to responses that seem really illogical or odd to me.

[Guest]

I would feel awful thinking that my marriage was great but unbeknownst to me my husband was cheating.  I don't think husbands cheat in a great marriage, therefore, that would mean my marriage was not great, I just didn't know about it.

 

If you (general you, not you, 8) or your husband think that parties can cheat in a healthy marriage, then that should be discussed at the beginning.  I could understand that more than I can understand introducing that concept into a marriage after the fact or without one party knowing.  If a spouse really believes it is still healthy, then why would it not be out in the open?  There is something about keeping it hidden that implies someone knows it's not healthy or okay.

 

It's not that women think their marriages are great, and their husband just does a little cheating,

 

It's men themselves....they say "my marriage is great" but they cheat.

 

I realize that you are responding to a specific point made by someone who is speaking about her personal truth.....but RESEARCH that speaks in generalities is what suggests that men who are inclined to cheat, cheat in marriages that they perceive as not lacking in any way.

[Wheres Toto]

I didn't answer the poll because I just don't know. 

 

I definitely wouldn't want to be told by some supposed "friend" who has only part of the story. 

 

I don't know if I'd want a confession. 

 

I know a couple who was married 20+ years and suddenly the husband announced they were getting a divorce, he'd had a long-term relationship outside the marriage, claimed the wife knew (this was a tactic to try and pay less in the divorce, that they weren't "really married').  To be hit with that after 20+ years, I think I would have preferred to know it was coming. 

 

But that's not a scenario I'm even remotely worried about.  Dh just turned 60 and he's another one that just wouldn't have time since we're together (or the kids are around) whenever he's not at work.  And he works 5 minutes from home and I could pop in any time.  And he does so much for me, the kids, my extended family.  Not a concern at all.

 

It's so theoretical and, if we're talking purely hypothetically, so many different nuances would need to be considered. I really can't answer.

 

[lllll]

nm

Edited October 5, 2016 by Cathi

[8circles]

I should probably stop posting in this thread, but another thing that bugs me about this topic is that we really 'other' the cheater. As if the behaviour - cheating - invalidates all other characteristics of the person. 

 

People are more than their history and experience of (in)fidelity.

 

Yes - I've been feeling this since the topic began.

 

I've never cheated on anyone so this isn't coming from a defensive POV.  But I am not comfortable with the idea that this kind of mistake/character flaw/insert-word-of-choice-here defines you.  

[JustEm]

I should probably stop posting in this thread, but another thing that bugs me about this topic is that we really 'other' the cheater. As if the behaviour - cheating - invalidates all other characteristics of the person.

 

People are more than their history and experience of (in)fidelity.

In my marriage, infidelity would invalidate dh's other characteristics that relate to what built our marriage. Trust, love, honesty, and security are what my marriage is built on. Dh would have none of that if he had an affair. Sex is not that important in our marriage but it is also not an act that stands alone. With the decision to have sex with someone else dh would also be deciding to lie to me, make our marriage less secure, and to share an aspect of himself that is meant for the one he loves. It is less the sex itself that is hurtful but the fact that every characteristic I thought he had which helped build up our marriage to what it is were not what I thought they were. IMHO, you can't be an honest, trustworthy, and loving person while also being a cheater.

[JustEm]

I would want to know if dh had a one night stand or an on going affair. I would want to know if that one night stand was years ago or yesterday. I give my all to my marriage and deserve complete trust and honesty in it. No matter how much it hurt I would want to know if parts of our marriage were built on a lie. I would not divorce him but things would change.

[DesertBlossom]

I would want to know if dh had a one night stand or an on going affair. I would want to know if that one night stand was years ago or yesterday. I give my all to my marriage and deserve complete trust and honesty in it. No matter how much it hurt I would want to know if parts of our marriage were built on a lie. I would not divorce him but things would change.

I agree with this. I feel like I put everything in to my marriage. And if DH wasn investing time and energy into a separate relationship I would want to know, if for no other reason than to be able to pull back emotionally and protect myself.

 

I also hate secrets. Loathe them. Like, I am rarely ever surprised by birthday gifts. I sniff that stuff out easily because I hate surprises. And I couldn't handle the thought of DH having a secret, separate relationship that I didn't know about. Even if it didn't lead to divorce. Even if it was years ago and DH never did it again. I would want to know.

Edited August 15, 2016 by DesertBlossom