The Collapse of Parenting by Leonard Sax

[Epicurean]

Can we talk about this book? I just finished it, and I'm blown away by his assessment of where parents have taken a wrong turn and what we need to do to get back on track. Of course homeschooling was never mentioned, but I love the idea of fleshing out the purpose of school in the first place and his focus on teaching virtues and training our children's desires. And the importance of not over scheduling and helping our kids not to become fragile.

 

Any thoughts? Criticisms?

 

I felt like he should have talked more about how insidious tv can be in displacing parents' values and replacing family time. I think he should have been more harsh with parents in general--I see a lot of parents saying, "What's WRONG with this generation?! They're so lazy/unsuccessful/sensitive," without willing to take a look at the role they played in raising that generation. Not that their adult kids are blameless, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. Maybe the author figured that shaming parents too much would have gotten in the way of his attempt at changing minds though. :p

[Spryte]

I haven't read this, but will go check it out. So glad you brought it up!

 

When our oldest was in college, having a rough time that first year, I read Boys Adrift, and wished I'd found it sooner. It resonated.

[Seasider]

No specific input but I was intrigued and googled the title. Now wonder the name sounded familiar, I think his Boys Adrift was discussed here or in one of my IRL circles.

 

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=the+collapse+of+parenting&tag=hydsma-20&index=aps&hvadid=70649485011&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=230943634798022177&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=m&ref=pd_sl_45hrhj2xtt_e&gclid=Cj0KEQjw8pC9BRCqrq37zZil4a0BEiQAZO_zrAp0VtnZDuiZWuuDa4Uge96kBa3Moxmz-ZcPWdiYT24aAvXG8P8HAQ

[luuknam]

Can we talk about this book?

 

[snip] and helping our kids not to become fragile.

 

I haven't read the book. The subtitle is "How we hurt our kids when we treat them like grown-ups". It appears to me that most people don't treat their kids like grown-ups at all, and refuse to give them age-appropriate challenges and instead baby them, with the result they're fragile. But, like I said, I haven't read the book.

[madteaparty]

I heard a podcast with him, which I recommend. WNYC Leonard Lopate show two days ago.

I don't know that I agree with everything but have to say the medication of children issue he brings up is terrifying.

Edited August 6, 2016 by madteaparty

[Rosie_0801]

I haven't read the book either, but the culture of the expert has to be partly to blame. We aren't *supposed* to parent too much. It's presumptuous. We should be relying on experts. 

[eternalsummer]

I don't think there's much inherently wrong with this generation (assuming he means the millennials; if he's actually talking about current 7-10 year olds, how can you assess that as yet?).  I don't think we're selfish, or fragile, or lazy, or whatever.  I think the boomers were/are a disaster of a generation and have bankrupted the country, morally and financially.

 

All of that said, I think many people over-medicate themselves and their children.  I think this is a symptom of the problem, though, not necessarily the cause.

[madteaparty]

I haven't read the book either, but the culture of the expert has to be partly to blame. We aren't *supposed* to parent too much. It's presumptuous. We should be relying on experts.

Or we parent too little, or we should parent like the French (please), on and on...I found this interesting (except the game theory sections which set my teeth on edge). The cottage industry of telling us how we are doing it wrong is vast. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/01/parenting-in-an-age-of-economic-anxiety

[Seasider]

I haven't read the book either, but the culture of the expert has to be partly to blame. We aren't *supposed* to parent too much. It's presumptuous. We should be relying on experts.

Yes! Like good old common sense just won't cut it.

[hornblower]

I don't like books telling us we're parenting wrong because for the most part I think things are way better than ever before.

[hornblower]

My knee jerk rxn is that it sounds like a parenting book Clint Eastwood would recommend .. [emoji23]

[Farrar]

An excellent refutation, based around research:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_kids/2016/01/leonard_sax_is_wrong_about_the_collapse_of_parenting_authoritarian_parenting.html

 

The gist of it from that Slate piece:

 

The people who study peer influence say that its role in adolescence hasn't budged in many decades, which makes his claim that it's suddenly a bigger problem untrue.

 

He confuses authoritarian and authoritative parenting styles and advocates for the one that has been associated with many more problems in repeated studies (authoritarian) but calls it authoritative, presumably because that style has been associated with more positive outcomes in studies.

 

He gives the opposite advice of what nutritionists have found in studies about how to help kids eat better.

 

He confuses correlation and causation and relies on anecdotes over evidence in studies.

 

I heard about the book when it came out and I recall that it sounded like something there was no way I wanted to read.

[frogger]

I haven't read the book. The subtitle is "How we hurt our kids when we treat them like grown-ups". It appears to me that most people don't treat their kids like grown-ups at all, and refuse to give them age-appropriate challenges and instead baby them, with the result they're fragile. But, like I said, I haven't read the book.

I agree although I can't say I've read the book either. I feel like teens in particular should be taking on more responsibility and making most of their decisions though wise ones will discuss and learn from their parents things they may not have thought of before deciding. Of course, a 13 year old is different then a 17 year old but I'm raising them to be adults and not servants. I will treat them as adults more and more as they age. It does feel society infantilizes teens now. And we now refer to people in their 20's as kids.

[Spryte]

An excellent refutation, based around research:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_kids/2016/01/leonard_sax_is_wrong_about_the_collapse_of_parenting_authoritarian_parenting.html

 

The gist of it from that Slate piece:

 

The people who study peer influence say that its role in adolescence hasn't budged in many decades, which makes his claim that it's suddenly a bigger problem untrue.

 

He confuses authoritarian and authoritative parenting styles and advocates for the one that has been associated with many more problems in repeated studies (authoritarian) but calls it authoritative, presumably because that style has been associated with more positive outcomes in studies.

 

He gives the opposite advice of what nutritionists have found in studies about how to help kids eat better.

 

He confuses correlation and causation and relies on anecdotes over evidence in studies.

 

I heard about the book when it came out and I recall that it sounded like something there was no way I wanted to read.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Haiku]

What's WRONG with this generation?!

People have been asking that since at least the time of the ancient Greeks. There's nothing new about that.

 

I haven't read the book, but if it's another "you and your lousy parenting" book, no thanks. He sounds like John Rosemond.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Haiku

[kewb]

I have not read any of his books but the description does not make it sound like a book I would enjoy.

 

To be honest, every generation laments the newest generation is lazy,fragile, special snowflakes, word djour. The older generation feels this way because we have little understanding of the youth world today. We think we remember what it was like to be young but our minds have glossed over a lot.

 

To add my own two cents, the problem is the fact that both parents have to work, sometimes multiple jobs, to keep a roof over their heads. Not both choosing to work but have to or you are homeless or hungry.

 

Kids are in so many extracurricular activities because no one is home. Except the kids you don't want your kid hanging out with.

 

Too much television can be an issue but when your streets are unsafe and the playground is for drug dealers then your kid watches television until you get home from work. And you are too tired to play or talk or take your kid to the playground.

 

The problems are bigger then the collapse of parenting. For all the problems, overall this current generation is the most accepting of people who are different. Less likely to out up with hostile work environments. Are willing to stand up for having a life, not just work.

[Guest]

I don't like books telling us we're parenting wrong because for the most part I think things are way better than ever before.

I think this, too. There's always a segment of the population whistfully thinking about the "good ol' days," but I think life is far better for my children than it was for me during my formative years, and mine were I'm sure better in some ways than my parents' generation.

 

There are always segments of society that are not doing well on many levels (physical health, mental health, meeting of needs, development of skills, social support), and there are always segments doing well in all those measures.

 

The thing I often find distressing is how often money makes the difference which of those segments one's family falls into. I have been thinking about this a lot as I have been helping one of my children get help with LDs. We are not rich, but we have enough money that it isn't impossible to pay for an evaluator (several hundred dollars), pay for therapy if that is the route we take, purchase medications if we were going to do that, purchase materials I can do with him, which would not be possible if I had to work FT or multiple jobs to survive, and so on. I can help my son succeed almost entirely because we have the financial and social support resources to make that happen and I can easily imagine the way these problems multiply from a simple lack of resources.

 

Sorry. Tangent. Probably deserves it's own thread.

 

I have not read the book.

[madteaparty]

An excellent refutation, based around research:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_kids/2016/01/leonard_sax_is_wrong_about_the_collapse_of_parenting_authoritarian_parenting.html

 

The gist of it from that Slate piece:

 

The people who study peer influence say that its role in adolescence hasn't budged in many decades, which makes his claim that it's suddenly a bigger problem untrue.

 

He confuses authoritarian and authoritative parenting styles and advocates for the one that has been associated with many more problems in repeated studies (authoritarian) but calls it authoritative, presumably because that style has been associated with more positive outcomes in studies.

 

He gives the opposite advice of what nutritionists have found in studies about how to help kids eat better.

 

He confuses correlation and causation and relies on anecdotes over evidence in studies.

 

I heard about the book when it came out and I recall that it sounded like something there was no way I wanted to read.

I have not read the slate piece yet but even so I told DH that perhaps we need to change how we measure success before we blame these poor kids and their testosterone levels...maybe boys don't need high testosterone levels for their desk jobs of coding or whatever they do. It's not like we are tearing animals apart with bare hands in order to survive. DH's point was, why are girls more successful. My counterpoint is because we have been screaming at them to be like boys for so long and defined success in that way, that now they are accomplishing that. But are they happier?

I really think we need to redefine success. Job/house in the suburb/ car seems like such a poor way to define it. I would be thrilled if my kids lived at home forever and did not submit to student loan bondage for the sake of proving a point.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh goody, yet another book to tell us how we are fu** ups at parenting. 

 

I really don't buy it.

 

 

[Farrar]

I do wonder about the over-medication issue. But I also strongly believe that many kids need and benefit from meds. And I don't really trust this guy's take after reading the Slate piece that spelled out all the other ways that he ignored data in favor of anecdotes (they mostly dodge the question of over-medication in that piece, only talking about why his conclusion is mixing up correlation and causation).

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read the book. The subtitle is "How we hurt our kids when we treat them like grown-ups". It appears to me that most people don't treat their kids like grown-ups at all, and refuse to give them age-appropriate challenges and instead baby them, with the result they're fragile. But, like I said, I haven't read the book.

 

I think it's actually kind of a strange mix that we've created.  There is a lot of not giving them age appropriate challenges, and then in other areas it can go the other way.  I haven't read this book but I have read one of his others, and heard him on the radio, and one of the things he seems to think is concerning is the tendency to put quite young kids in large classroom environments doing a lot of sit-down type work. 

 

ETA: The other thing that I think he suggests is that with younger kids there is a tendency for parents to be worried about instilling habits or setting boundaries, even when the kids are not yet really able to handle those things for themselves. 

 

My feeling is that the tendency is to treat kids in the preschool/younger elementary years as if they needed less adult attention and guidance than they really do, but give too much oversight later on and baby kids in the later elementary through high school period.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Bluegoat

[SKL]

I guess we have different ideas about what creates a "fragile" child.  I haven't read the book, so I don't know what the author means by "treating kids like adults."  I agree with the PP who says the logic fails if I interpret his words in the obvious way.  Giving a child agency leads to fragility?  Well, maybe if the agency is completely age-inappropriate.  Though, I'm not so sure even then.

[Meriwether]

I agree although I can't say I've read the book either. I feel like teens in particular should be taking on more responsibility and making most of their decisions though wise ones will discuss and learn from their parents things they may not have thought of before deciding. Of course, a 13 year old is different then a 17 year old but I'm raising them to be adults and not servants. I will treat them as adults more and more as they age. It does feel society infantilizes teens now. And we now refer to people in their 20's as kids.

My mom has said before that kids are young in ways they should be older and older in ways they should be young. A 12 should be capable of helping the family but still be allowed to be a child (for example, not told they are too old to play with dolls). As opposed to a 12 year old girl I know (whom I like) that is discussing her sexuality and having embarrassingly public conversations with her boyfriend on Facebook but struggles to help around the home. We've always talked to the kids about how rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. I'm perfectly willing to treat them like an adult when they act like adults. My 12 year old recently did something dumb. He mostly regretted it because, "that didn't show that I was very responsible."

Edited August 6, 2016 by Meriwether

[Tohru]

Ha! I read the book!!!! It was very thought provoking, especially the teacher concerns at Australian high school compared to the teacher concerns at US ones.

 

So amusing to hear the opinions of those that haven't read the book :)

[kiwik]

Well i give ds7 melatonin to help him sleep. In previous generations I could have beaten him into submission. Pretty sure that is an improvement and he certainly happier when he sleeps.

[SporkUK]

I've never been a fan of Sax - too anecdotal and ignores years of research for his sky is falling mentality. 

 

I, like others, don't really see an issue with young people and am really quite fed up with books and thinkpieces about how 'lazy' they are and the beating of them and their parents and ignoring wider society and its changes. I'm just in my thirties and it's very clear to me how much easier I had with basic survival in adulthood than those coming up behind me -- and I come from an abusive, neglectful home with no teaching of skills I needed for adulthood and I still have a lot of maladaptations. What I did then is not possible, or legal, because of law and policy changes -- young people are dealing with more things with fewer resources mainly because of older generations' choices and many are doing it remarkably well. 

 

Personally, I agree with Lindsey Weedston that 'lazy' has for quite some time been a political media word that has very little to do with how hard someone works. I think we need to be careful as parents in the current demonizing because the millennia-old traditions of it has gone from snarky comments from parents to 24/7 surround sound which is not helping anyone. I mean, a few weeks ago here we were discussing hookup culture when the latest research gives strong evidence that millennials are starting having sex later than their parents [with an estimated 1 in 3 20somethings having not had sex at all] and have fewer partners than their parents' generation, drinking less, smoking less, and so on, but that's not the media hype around it at all. Yes, millennials are less 'successful' than their parents, if we only consider capitalist, material ownership terms and there is a lot of concern about mental illness though I am not convinced that a large part of that is not simply we talk and work to accommodate before rather than self-medicate issues as common practice. I don't think being sensitive to our own and others needs is a bad thing. 

 

And, in terms of entitlement, I have never seen worse than older people and their mistreatment of retail and hospitality staff. I've witnessed some downright vicious displays lately of what I can only describe as people who are far too fragile and sensitive to be told no by those they're obviously looking down upon. 

[SporkUK]

I've never been a fan of Sax - too anecdotal and ignores years of research for his sky is falling mentality. 

 

I, like others, don't really see an issue with young people and am really quite fed up with books and thinkpieces about how 'lazy' they are and the beating of them and their parents and ignoring wider society and its changes. I'm just in my thirties and it's very clear to me how much easier I had with basic survival in adulthood than those coming up behind me -- and I come from an abusive, neglectful home with no teaching of skills I needed for adulthood and I still have a lot of maladaptations. What I did then is not possible, or legal, because of law and policy changes -- young people are dealing with more things with fewer resources mainly because of older generations' choices and many are doing it remarkably well. 

 

Personally, I agree with Lindsey Weedston that 'lazy' has for quite some time been a political media word that has very little to do with how hard someone works. I think we need to be careful as parents in the current demonizing because the millennia-old traditions of it has gone from snarky comments from parents to 24/7 surround sound which is not helping anyone. I mean, a few weeks ago here we were discussing hookup culture when the latest research gives strong evidence that millennials are starting having sex later than their parents [with an estimated 1 in 3 20somethings having not had sex at all] and have fewer partners than their parents' generation, drinking less, smoking less, and so on, but that's not the media hype around it at all. Yes, millennials are less 'successful' than their parents, if we only consider capitalist, material ownership terms and there is a lot of concern about mental illness though I am not convinced that a large part of that is not simply we talk and work to accommodate before rather than self-medicate issues as common practice. I don't think being sensitive to our own and others needs is a bad thing. 

 

And, in terms of entitlement, I have never seen worse than older people and their mistreatment of retail and hospitality staff. I've witnessed some downright vicious displays lately of what I can only describe as people who are far too fragile and sensitive to be told no by those they're obviously looking down upon. 

[Jane Elliot]

Ha! I read the book!!!! It was very thought provoking, especially the teacher concerns at Australian high school compared to the teacher concerns at US ones.

 

So amusing to hear the opinions of those that haven't read the book :)

 

No kidding! I read the book back in January. It was easily my favorite book on parenting ever. It's the book dh, a family physician for 24 years, would have written if he had the time and gumption. I thought Sax was spot on with his assessment of the issues, and I appreciated the real solutions he offered in the final chapters. 

[Haiku]

So amusing to hear the opinions of those that haven't read the book :)

 

Well, either the OP did a poor job of explaining the book, or she did explain it accurately and it's not something I am interested in.

[frogger]

Well i give ds7 melatonin to help him sleep. In previous generations I could have beaten him into submission. Pretty sure that is an improvement and he certainly happier when he sleeps.

Or you would have given him a little whiskey to put him to sleep.

[kiwik]

Or you would have given him a little whiskey to put him to sleep.

He would be unbearable with a hangover.

[Mimm]

Can we talk about this book? I just finished it, and I'm blown away by his assessment of where parents have taken a wrong turn and what we need to do to get back on track. Of course homeschooling was never mentioned, but I love the idea of fleshing out the purpose of school in the first place and his focus on teaching virtues and training our children's desires. And the importance of not over scheduling and helping our kids not to become fragile.

 

Any thoughts? Criticisms?

 

I felt like he should have talked more about how insidious tv can be in displacing parents' values and replacing family time. I think he should have been more harsh with parents in general--I see a lot of parents saying, "What's WRONG with this generation?! They're so lazy/unsuccessful/sensitive," without willing to take a look at the role they played in raising that generation. Not that their adult kids are blameless, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. Maybe the author figured that shaming parents too much would have gotten in the way of his attempt at changing minds though. :p

 

From your post, it sounds like this book isn't one I'm likely to read. Another book telling parents what we're doing wrong? Lovely. American parents have this identity crisis where we're totally insecure, absolutely sure that we're completely messing up our kids because everyone is always telling us we are. Kids these days are, apparently, awful and need to be hit more. Google "How to parent like" and you get German, French, Dutch, Russian and so on.

 

You think parents needs more harshness and judgement thrown their way? I'm of the opinion we need a whole lot less. Yikes.

[Jane Elliot]

From your post, it sounds like this book isn't one I'm likely to read. Another book telling parents what we're doing wrong? Lovely. American parents have this identity crisis where we're totally insecure, absolutely sure that we're completely messing up our kids because everyone is always telling us we are. Kids these days are, apparently, awful and need to be hit more. Google "How to parent like" and you get German, French, Dutch, Russian and so on.

 

You think parents needs more harshness and judgement thrown their way? I'm of the opinion we need a whole lot less. Yikes.

 

I don't know where you're getting this. Neither the original poster nor the author of the book talked like this. In fact, I'm sure the author would soundly disagree. His advice is along the lines of: enjoy your kids more, spend more time together, eat dinner together, have fun, don't focus too much on accomplishments . . . It's practical, sane advice. Nothing about hitting your kids!

 

eta: Never mind. I just saw the Slate piece. You all are basing your opinion of the book on one negative review you found on the internet. Lovely.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[AppleGreen]

I started reading earlier this month. I am about a third of the way through it. I was discussing some of the points with my husband and his response was, "Sounds like one of those, it was better back in the old days books." I can certainly see his point. I am interested in checking out the Slate piece.

 

I do think our kids are growing up in this barrage of media and connectedness to peers via texting and social media sites that is unprecedented. Kids can spend an entire day interacting with their peers without ever leaving their homes. I spent a lot of time on the phone every day talking to my friends, but when my mom got a call, it was off the phone for me. I also had a sibling that used the phone, so I just couldn't rapidly interact with my entire friend group the way any kid with a smart phone can these days. I am shocked at the amount of time kids spend on devices (young kids). I get it. Kiiddo is quiet and engaged in something, siblings fight less and there is a general peacefulness in the home when everyone is looking at their screen.

 

I don't think it can be distilled to one or two issues. Every generation has had its unique challenges, but I think many of today's parents are a bit freaked out at the pervasiveness of tech in their kids lives. Even if your family limits tech, chances are your family is the anomaly in any given group. I think this book resonates with parents because ilife for our kids is so different from how most of us grew up and tangible ideas that feel familiar are a comfort when we feel out of control.    

[fairfarmhand]

I have not read any of his books but the description does not make it sound like a book I would enjoy.

 

To be honest, every generation laments the newest generation is lazy,fragile, special snowflakes, word djour. The older generation feels this way because we have little understanding of the youth world today. We think we remember what it was like to be young but our minds have glossed over a lot.

 

To add my own two cents, the problem is the fact that both parents have to work, sometimes multiple jobs, to keep a roof over their heads. Not both choosing to work but have to or you are homeless or hungry.

 

Kids are in so many extracurricular activities because no one is home. Except the kids you don't want your kid hanging out with.

 

Too much television can be an issue but when your streets are unsafe and the playground is for drug dealers then your kid watches television until you get home from work. And you are too tired to play or talk or take your kid to the playground.

 

The problems are bigger then the collapse of parenting. For all the problems, overall this current generation is the most accepting of people who are different. Less likely to out up with hostile work environments. Are willing to stand up for having a life, not just work.

 

I think this is the biggest most glaring problem with "kids these days."

 

It's not that people don't know how to parent or they parent poorly. It's that so many people are just plain too tired and trying to live hand to mouth, that they can't be the parents they really want to be.

 

[Mimm]

I don't know where you're getting this. Neither the original poster nor the author of the book talked like this. In fact, I'm sure the author would soundly disagree. His advice is along the lines of: enjoy your kids more, spend more time together, eat dinner together, have fun, don't focus too much on accomplishments . . . It's practical, sane advice. Nothing about hitting your kids!

 

eta: Never mind. I just saw the Slate piece. You all are basing your opinion of the book on one negative review you found on the internet. Lovely.

 

Actually, I hadn't read the slate review, but my post was about general attitudes regarding parenting and "kids these days". The OP had several statements that led me to believe it was more of the same.

 

"Parents have taken a wrong turn and what we need to do to get back on track"

 

Back on track? What track would that be? Some mythical past when parenting was being done "right"? I just don't believe there was such a time. I don't think parenting is necessarily being done better now but I certainly don't think we're doing it worse. We've got our own set of problems, our weaknesses and strengths, just like our parents, just like our grandparents. These are worth talking about but...

 

"I think he should have been more harsh with parents in general" I disagree with this, I think parents have quite enough negativity and harshness thrown their way as it is.

 

"I see a lot of parents saying, "What's WRONG with this generation?! They're so lazy/unsuccessful/sensitive,""

 

Yeah, I see people saying this as well and the go to solution is usually more beatings (not that the book said this, but I encounter this opinion everywhere and it disturbs me).

 

I didn't read the book, which is why my post started with "From your post..." Even the title sounds like he's saying "Parenting used to be just fine, then it fell apart."

[Jane Elliot]

Actually, I hadn't read the slate review, but my post was about general attitudes regarding parenting and "kids these days". The OP had several statements that led me to believe it was more of the same.

 

"Parents have taken a wrong turn and what we need to do to get back on track"

 

Back on track? What track would that be? Some mythical past when parenting was being done "right"? I just don't believe there was such a time. I don't think parenting is necessarily being done better now but I certainly don't think we're doing it worse. We've got our own set of problems, our weaknesses and strengths, just like our parents, just like our grandparents. These are worth talking about but...

 

"I think he should have been more harsh with parents in general" I disagree with this, I think parents have quite enough negativity and harshness thrown their way as it is.

 

"I see a lot of parents saying, "What's WRONG with this generation?! They're so lazy/unsuccessful/sensitive,""

 

Yeah, I see people saying this as well and the go to solution is usually more beatings (not that the book said this, but I encounter this opinion everywhere and it disturbs me).

 

I didn't read the book, which is why my post started with "From your post..." Even the title sounds like he's saying "Parenting used to be just fine, then it fell apart."

 

I'm sorry you're encountering this everywhere. I'm not. If I was, I'm sure I'd have a knee-jerk reaction every time I sensed it. However, in a discussion regarding this book (or even the op's comments on it), it's only a straw man.

 

And as for the concerns that the book is focused on parents-these-days-are-messing-things-up: I think most people who have read the book, including the op who felt he should have been harsher, would agree that that's not the overall tone of the book.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[Bluegoat]

I've not read this one, but I have read one of his others, Boys Adrift.

 

My feeling wasn't so much a "parents these days" as looking at specific trends and specific causes. 

 

I don't really think that pointing out that people always complain about the new generation, or current parenting, as wrong or poor, really means that it is just fine and the same situation as always.  It might just mean that there are always things that could be improved.  I do think there are really changes and trends that are not always helpful or good.  Some things that people think will work, don't, or social changes make new problems.

 

I also think it's too limiting to just look at it in terms of time.  We don't necessarily have to look at past generations, we can see that other cultures have really different approaches as well, and may have better or worse outcomes from them, or different ways to solve a problem we struggle with.

 

I think to say that we aren't struggling with some things is just a head in the sand thing - totally apart from lack of confidence in our parenting culture, which is a real issue, there are stresses families are feeling and situations they feel stuck in and want to change.  Often the first steps to finding a solution are to look at where the particular problem originates, or how other people avoid or solve it, or even just think about it.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Spryte]

This has been an interesting thread. I haven't read the book, but like I said above - I read Boys Adrift, and got a lot out of it. I read it when our oldest was struggling through a tumultuous first year of college, and it hit home hard. I made some changes based on the book, for our K age son. Whether those changes help, I can't say yet. I am notorious for taking what I like from a resource, and discarding the rest, so I may not remember all of his views, but my main take aways from Boys Adrift had nothing to do with becoming an authoritarian parent, beatings (not sure how that was extrapolated from his books, is it in another book?), or that parents now are doing poor jobs. Mainly, it reinforced my instincts to reduce exposure to BPA, VOCs, and other endocrine disrupters. That section was probably a fifth of the book. Another section encouraged me to start K later, and with lots of play and less sit down academics for our K aged son. And piqued my interest in some European models of school, with academics coming later. He also reinforced my instincts that first person shooter games aren't the way I want to see my family play video games, but that more cooperative games are fine for us. He uses Guitar Hero as an example. And he highlighted a need for male role models, which I honestly felt our oldest lacked, aside from DH, because of the way his life was set up (split custody, limited time with each parent). I didn't feel a sense of disapproval with parents in general, or a nostalgia for the days of authoritarian parenting. Or if I did, I tossed that part and just took away the parts I liked.

 

I'm probably going to read his latest book at some point, and am interested to see if he's become more stringent about authoritiarianism, or if these other issues are prominent. I would not recommend his books again, if that's the case.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Spryte

[frogger]

He would be unbearable with a hangover.

I wasn't advising it. Just stating it was done. :)