S/o (sort of) Pet Ownership is Becoming Elitist.

[Murphy101]

Rats are significantly bigger than mice though, and the bigger the animal, the harder it would be to stomp it to death. Probably could work for a rat. I don't care to find out though. Luckily haven't seen any since moving to NY (though I'm sure there are rats in NY).

Oh I agree. And you really can't do it efficiently unless things set up just right. A stomp is only going to be quick and efficient if one can do it right with one blow. Otherwise, that's going to get ugly. My dh wasn't repeatedly stomping and kicking a mouse around the living room. Ick. Even if I didn't care about being humane, that's just nasty.

 

My point was, a shovel, hammer, boot - whatever it was wouldn't matter as much as how quick and efficiently it was done. Quick and efficient is usually what makes a humane kill. And it's usually just practical anyways.

 

And also, distance is usually safer for the human anyways. Last thing I'd want is a rat to bite the leg exposed on the top of the shoe for example. I actually got onto my son for the knife rat escapade bc that was putting his hand way way too close to a rat IMO. He could have gotten bitten.

 

The guilotine thing was odd to me bc you'd think a lab would just gas them with CO2? It's got to be quicker and less mess? Especially if they were still under sedation.

[Bluegoat]

Oh I agree. And you really can't do it efficiently unless things set up just right. A stomp is only going to be quick and efficient if one can do it right with one blow. Otherwise, that's going to get ugly. My dh wasn't repeatedly stomping and kicking a mouse around the living room. Ick. Even if I didn't care about being humane, that's just nasty.

 

My point was, a shovel, hammer, boot - whatever it was wouldn't matter as much as how quick and efficiently it was done. Quick and efficient is usually what makes a humane kill. And it's usually just practical anyways.

 

And also, distance is usually safer for the human anyways. Last thing I'd want is a rat to bite the leg exposed on the top of the shoe for example. I actually got onto my son for the knife rat escapade bc that was putting his hand way way too close to a rat IMO. He could have gotten bitten.

 

The guilotine thing was odd to me bc you'd think a lab would just gas them with CO2? It's got to be quicker and less mess? Especially if they were still under sedation.

 

The lab my pet rat who had been given a hysterectomy came from gassed them. 

[Ausmumof3]

Legislation just passed where we live to restrict ownership of undesexed dogs to registered breeders and therapy dogs. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think it will probably be an ok thing but I hope it doesn't just push the worst of the breeders further underground.

[Guest]

I love this shirt.

 

https://www.sunfrog.com/Pets/Cows-make-me-Happy-You-not-so-much--Limited-Edition-Ladies.html

 

I totally don't get it. I hate missing jokes :lol:

[Spy Car]

Legislation just passed where we live to restrict ownership of undesexed dogs to registered breeders and therapy dogs. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think it will probably be an ok thing but I hope it doesn't just push the worst of the breeders further underground.

 

The legislation will result in negative health consequences in dogs. There will be more obesity, more cancer, more hip dysplasia, more blown CCL ligaments, and more fear/anxiety behavioral issues.

 

This is a bad thing.

 

Bill

[luuknam]

And also, distance is usually safer for the human anyways. Last thing I'd want is a rat to bite the leg exposed on the top of the shoe for example.

 

The guilotine thing was odd to me bc you'd think a lab would just gas them with CO2? It's got to be quicker and less mess? Especially if they were still under sedation.

 

True. That said, the original comment was about some rat found suffering in someone's yard, which leads me to think the rat is probably partially/mostly immobilized (if it's going to stay in place while someone asks the internet what to do). Which would probably reduce the odds of it biting you unless you put something right in front of its mouth.

 

It was at a university in Texas, and I think they rarely did experiments on rats (it was a lab methods class). But I don't know. The instructor was from Italy. Either way, it's better than stomping/stabbing them to death.

[hornblower]

I totally don't get it. I hate missing jokes :lol:

There are version of this shirt for all sorts of animals.

 

Cats make me happy; you not so much. Rabbits, dogs, etc.  

 

It's in the vein of saying "I love _____(animal) more than most people."  

 

or 

 

"the more people I meet, the more I like my dog" 

[Ausmumof3]

The legislation will result in negative health consequences in dogs. There will be more obesity, more cancer, more hip dysplasia, more blown CCL ligaments, and more fear/anxiety behavioral issues.

 

This is a bad thing.

 

Bill

Yes this is somewhat my concern as well, as expressed earlier. A reduction in the excess dog population may be good though.

[Guest]

There are version of this shirt for all sorts of animals.

 

Cats make me happy; you not so much. Rabbits, dogs, etc.

 

It's in the vein of saying "I love _____(animal) more than most people."

 

or

 

"the more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

Ah, got it - I've never seen those before. I'd own the goldfish or rat version of that :)

 

I've seen your bottom example but rarely.

[Spy Car]

Yes this is somewhat my concern as well, as expressed earlier. A reduction in the excess dog population may be good though.

 

Population control and reducing the killing of dogs in shelters is a vital goal. De-sexing dogs as the means to reach that goal is an extreme measure that has severe heath consequences for dogs subject to these surgeries as established by numerous scientific studies. We don't need to take the least humane path to meeting these goals when there are other alternatives.

 

One day the routine legally mandated de-sexing of dogs as a means of birth control will be a source of great shame, in much the same way we look at anachronistic barbarisms of the past and wonder "what were those people thinking?"

 

Bill 

[zaichiki]

I thought these dogs were only allergy-free for people who are specifically allergic to fur and if you're allergic to dander or saliva the poodle crosses won't help.

From what I understand, all animal allergies are actually dander... but less shedding means less dander being spread around.

 

There *are* some dogs that dd is *less* allergic to... and these two were in that category until we had had them for a while.  She reacts to them more easily now.

[zaichiki]

No, they are not. Read the article Hornblower linked about the "inventor" of the Labradoodle regretting his decision.

 

This is part of what bothers me. Anything crossed with a Poodle or a Bichon is marketed as a non-shedding, hypoallergenic dog, but allergies are not simple and heritibility of traits is not guaranteed.

 

To be fair, I have heard some people more realistically confess that their cross sheds less but does shed and people I know with a known allergy to dogs either get a purebred poodle or don't get dogs at all.

Our bichon/poodle crosses don't shed at all.  If I am combing/brushing vigorously, I will get a couple square inches of fluff after 10 minutes and brushing the entire dog.  No shedding in the house, though. I'm cool with that. 

[zaichiki]

Actually, whether a dog is hypoallergenic has to do with a particular person is allergic to it.

 

I am an adoption coordinator for a breed-specific rescue, and this breed is supposedly hypoallergenic. We get applicants who are allergic to dogs, and we have an allergy policy in place and we always ask if anyone in the household is allergic to dogs and explain how no breed or dog is truly hypoallergenic. 

 

Sometimes people either lie or they just don't realize that a family is allergic to dogs. The last time this happened, the wife had never been allergic to any dog. The  dog the couple was fostering to adopt caused her such severe allergies that she had to move out of the house while we found the dog a foster home. Her choice was basically to stay and be able to breathe, or to move out.

 

Absolutely. I agree: it's the person, not the dog.  And no dog is truly hypoallergenic. Absolutely!

 

In our case, dd was not, at first, allergic to these dogs. She sat with one in her lap for an hour at the animal rescue, petting and loving on her. No reaction.  Six months later, doggie can no longer sleep in her room unless dd takes an allergy pill.  Just like with dd's other allergies, it seems, more exposure leads to more of a reaction.

[Guest]

Population control and reducing the killing of dogs in shelters is a vital goal. De-sexing dogs as the means to reach that goal is an extreme measure that has severe heath consequences for dogs subject to these surgeries as established by numerous scientific studies. We don't need to take the least humane path to meeting these goals when there are other alternatives.

 

One day the routine legally mandated de-sexing of dogs as a means of birth control will be a source of great shame, in much the same way we look at anachronistic barbarisms of the past and wonder "what were those people thinking?"

 

Bill

I have heard you say this before and I initially stridently disagreed with you. But I'm starting to find some unexpected agreement with you on this subject. My beautiful boy, Sarge, died of cancer. (Euthenasia after progression of cancer.) His hips were also deteriorating. It does give me pause that seemingly every dog gets cancer now.

 

But I don't know what the solution is.

[Pawz4me]

I have heard you say this before and I initially stridently disagreed with you. But I'm starting to find some unexpected agreement with you on this subject. My beautiful boy, Sarge, died of cancer. (Euthenasia after progression of cancer.) His hips were also deteriorating. It does give me pause that seemingly every dog gets cancer now.

 

But I don't know what the solution is.

In my adult life I've had seven dogs (not counting the current one). All lived relatively long lives and none had cancer. All were spayed or neutered.

[Guest]

In my adult life I've had seven dogs (not counting the current one). All lived relatively long lives and none had cancer. All were spayed or neutered.

I hear you. I just wonder about some things and part of my wondering relates to the subject of this thread. The dogs I had or DH had as children were born by natural selection. These dogs all lived almost entirely trouble-free for an average of 15 years.

 

I wonder about these things. Someone earlier in this thread talked about how the breeding and de-sexing of dogs may be leading to a lack of genetic diversity. I can see this possibility. The number of types of dogs existing in the mixed-breed population is shrinking. There's something ironic in the fact that the least desirable (generally speaking) types of dogs are the only dogs being left intact; unintended breeding is heavily skewed to be mixes of these same couple breeds.

[Bluegoat]

I hear you. I just wonder about some things and part of my wondering relates to the subject of this thread. The dogs I had or DH had as children were born by natural selection. These dogs all lived almost entirely trouble-free for an average of 15 years.

 

I wonder about these things. Someone earlier in this thread talked about how the breeding and de-sexing of dogs may be leading to a lack of genetic diversity. I can see this possibility. The number of types of dogs existing in the mixed-breed population is shrinking. There's something ironic in the fact that the least desirable (generally speaking) types of dogs are the only dogs being left intact; unintended breeding is heavily skewed to be mixes of these same couple breeds.

 

Restricting the gene pool is a big risk for cancer, quite apart from the direct effect that sterilization has on an individual dog.  When any gene pool becomes limited, cancer will start to become more and more common, and ultimately so will fertility.

 

We've created a kind of catch-22 situation for ourselves with the pursuit of dogs that meet some single ideal form, restriction of bloodlines, and the idea that only specialized breeders should breed dogs.  Most dogs a breeder sells as pets may not be show quality, but they are perfectly good dogs in most cases, and yet the breeding contracts state they must be spayed or neutered.  For a lot, that means most of the dogs they produce are being taken out of the gene pool.  Even with animals that are given genetic testing and removed because of problems are kind of an answer to a bad breeding problem that reduces genetic diversity further.

 

A lot of people have no idea how bad this has become in many breeds, or how serious a danger it is to breeds that have a small population.  One of the most popular dogs today in the UK is the pug, there are a lot of them, but in terms of genetic diversity, they represent about 50 individual dogs. 

 

I am not all that concerned about sterilization on the individual level, but as a way of addressing other problems on a population level, I think it has serious downsides that aren't being considered.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Pawz4me]

I hear you. I just wonder about some things and part of my wondering relates to the subject of this thread. The dogs I had or DH had as children were born by natural selection. These dogs all lived almost entirely trouble-free for an average of 15 years.

 

I wonder about these things. Someone earlier in this thread talked about how the breeding and de-sexing of dogs may be leading to a lack of genetic diversity. I can see this possibility. The number of types of dogs existing in the mixed-breed population is shrinking. There's something ironic in the fact that the least desirable (generally speaking) types of dogs are the only dogs being left intact; unintended breeding is heavily skewed to be mixes of these same couple breeds.

I think lack of genetic diversity is a concern. It's worse in some breeds than others, but I don't think it's a particularly new thing. I also don't think dogs are overall less healthy or live shorter lives than they did a few decades ago. In fact I think it's quite the opposite.

[Guest]

Restricting the gene pool is a big risk for cancer, quite apart from the direct effect that sterilization has on an individual dog. When any gene pool becomes limited, cancer will start to become more and more common, and ultimately so will fertility.

 

We've created a kind of catch-22 situation for ourselves with the pursuit of dogs that meet some single ideal form, restriction of bloodlines, and the idea that only specialized breeders should breed dogs. Most dogs a breeder sells as pets may not be show quality, but they are perfectly good dogs in most cases, and yet the breeding contracts state they must be spayed or neutered. For a lot, that means most of the dogs they produce are being taken out of the gene pool. Even with animals that are given genetic testing and removed because of problems are kind of an answer to a bad breeding problem that reduces genetic diversity further.

 

A lot of people have no idea how bad this has become in many breeds, or how serious a danger it is to breeds that have a small population. One of the most popular dogs today in the UK is the pug, there are a lot of them, but in terms of genetic diversity, they represent about 50 individual dogs.

 

I am not all that concerned about sterilization on the individual level, but as a way of addressing other problems on a population level, I think it has serious downsides that aren't being considered.

Perfectly stated. This is what I'm concerned about.

 

I don't know what the answer is.

[Guest]

I think lack of genetic diversity is a concern. It's worse in some breeds than others, but I don't think it's a particularly new thing. I also don't think dogs are overall less healthy or live shorter lives than they did a few decades ago. In fact I think it's quite the opposite.

Well, I have not researched the subject, so I can only speak from anecdotal observation. Overall less healthy? I do think dogs and cats are overall less naturally healthy. The proverbial farm dog of mixed parentage who lives to be 15 with little more than a bowl of Dog Chow from the feed store, clean water, tons of natural exercsie chasing rabbits, and a rabies shot a couple of times in a lifetime. It's not a mythical idea. But it seems to be a vanishing idea.

[hornblower]

I think lack of genetic diversity is a concern. It's worse in some breeds than others, but I don't think it's a particularly new thing. I also don't think dogs are overall less healthy or live shorter lives than they did a few decades ago. In fact I think it's quite the opposite.

 

Well, it's rare but I'm going to disagree with you about the longevity because the little data we have (& man oh man are clubs and the whole dog fancy world as a whole behind in actually collecting and analyzing data) shows otherwise. 

 

The 2014 UK Kennel Club survey showed a precipitous drop in life expectancy. 

 

"more than 85% of KC registered dogs today do not make it to old age - and almost all die, or are put to sleep, because of disease."

 

The study results are here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/vets-researchers/pedigree-breed-health-survey-2014

 

The Pedigree dogs exposed write up (which is where that quote is from) is here: http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.ca/2016/02/breaking-news-kc-survey-reveals.html

 

Also I'd really like to see a statistician go through that survey & compare longevity v. s/n status. Right now we're making too many guesses based on inadequate studies. 

 

 

 

[hornblower]

Quill, GSDs have got to be the most horrifically damaged breed right now. I do know there are some East European lines which are breeding to different standards & there's a chance the breed will eventually recover, but not until the clubs get their head out of their %^&(. 

You'll want to check out Jemima's blog as she's been talking tons recently about Crufts & Tori - the barely walking GSD who won. Most of the discussion is around March of this year. http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.ca/search?updated-max=2016-03-23T23:58:00Z&max-results=7&start=21&by-date=false

[ktgrok]

Just popping in to agree that what we have done to some of these dog breeds is barbaric. I can't tell you how furious it makes me when breeders try for "teacup" whatevers that are nothing more than genetic freaks whose mouths can't fit all their teeth, or oddly shaped heads in chihuahuas, or extra wrinkles on those poor sharpeis or short faced breeds that can't breathe and need nose jobs just to keep from passing out. Ugh. And yeah, don't get me started on GSDs and such. 

 

Oh, and there is also a thought that by breeding for dogs that naturally "stack" we are breeding for aggression. That posture is an aggressive posture. 

 

I'm going to go cuddle my pound puppy now. Sigh. 

[SquirrellyMama]

We had 3 poodles, and one cocker spaniel growing up. All 4 dogs had health problems. One poodle had a hole in her heart, another had cancer, and another had kidney problems. The cocker spaniel had a brain tumor.

 

The cocker and 2 of the poodles died young.

 

We have cats as pets now, but should we get a dog, it will probably be a rescue mutt. I'm afraid of purebreds and their health problems.

 

Kelly

[Bluegoat]

Some people who like the GSD types have had luck switching to similar breeds that haven't the same bizarre breeding goals - the Belgian shepherd seems one of the more available ones though I think still not that common.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Laura Corin]

With all this talk about overbred pure breeds, perhaps all those much-maligned -poos and -doodles should be celebrated.

[lmrich]

I was denied a cat once! The shelter had like 20 cats - at least. They overheard me comment about how I need a good mouser because we had mice coming into the garage. They said if I wanted a cat to do the work, they could not let me have one. I went to a pet store and bought a great cat for $20. She killed a lot of mice and had fun doing it. Crazy!!

[ktgrok]

With all this talk about overbred pure breeds, perhaps all those much-maligned -poos and -doodles should be celebrated.

 

Except they are being bred for looks, not health, which gets you into the same kinds of problems. 

[hornblower]

I was denied a cat once! The shelter had like 20 cats - at least. They overheard me comment about how I need a good mouser because we had mice coming into the garage. They said if I wanted a cat to do the work, they could not let me have one. I went to a pet store and bought a great cat for $20. She killed a lot of mice and had fun doing it. Crazy!!

Some shelters in North America have policies against people adopting outdoor cats. Not all do but many do.

 

Were there no other shelters or humane societies or rescues in your area? I always find it odd that people who get refused an adoption run to a store. There are tons of cats everywhere and usually many being given ftgh in the classifieds.

Edited July 15, 2016 by hornblower

[ktgrok]

Some shelters in North America have policies against people adopting outdoor cats. Not all do but many do.

 

Were there no other shelters or humane societies or rescues in your area? I always find it odd that people who get refused an adoption run to a store. There are tons of cats everywhere and usually many being given ftgh in the classifieds.

 

I'm betting she went to a store that has rescue cats for adoption. Around here every pet store (well, other than the ones that have puppy mill puppies) have spots for various cat rescues to use, to keep cats there. The rescues come in twice a day to take care of the cats, and the pet store donates the space. So it would still be a rescue cat. $20 sounds too low to be anything else. 

[jeninok]

A GSD was going to be my next dog, until our lab wandered up and stayed last year.

 

I was talking to SAR and working herding GSD Breeders that use imported stock and care about function and temperament above arbitrary form.

 

Even those involved in French ring or schutzhund have tons of physically healthy and mentally sound dogs perfect for pet homes.

 

ETA: this applies to many other breeds as well, go to the hunters doing trials for solid Labradors, working ranches for Border Collies or Heelers, SAR or hunting competitors for Hounds.

Quill, GSDs have got to be the most horrifically damaged breed right now. I do know there are some East European lines which are breeding to different standards & there's a chance the breed will eventually recover, but not until the clubs get their head out of their %^&(.

 

You'll want to check out Jemima's blog as she's been talking tons recently about Crufts & Tori - the barely walking GSD who won. Most of the discussion is around March of this year. http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.ca/search?updated-max=2016-03-23T23:58:00Z&max-results=7&start=21&by-date=false

Edited July 15, 2016 by jeninok

[hornblower]

I'm betting she went to a store that has rescue cats for adoption..

we have that here too but then there is still the normal application and references and home check done by the rescue. The store only has them there to give them exposure. The adoption is still handled according to the shelter or rescue policies...

[Pawz4me]

we have that here too but then there is still the normal application and references and home check done by the rescue. The store only has them there to give them exposure. The adoption is still handled according to the shelter or rescue policies...

 

Yes. The rescue I formerly volunteered with had cats at our local Petsmart. All the usual adoption policies and prices applied. Petsmart simply allowed us to use their space, and they (and Purina) supplied all the cat litter and dry food we needed.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

we have that here too but then there is still the normal application and references and home check done by the rescue. The store only has them there to give them exposure. The adoption is still handled according to the shelter or rescue policies...

 

I'm guessing she knew not to mention the mouse thing this time though, when applying. No home visits for cats here, that I've ever heard of. Just rules about declawing, possibly about being indoors only. But, we've talked about what a glut of animals we have here. 

[lmrich]

Some shelters in North America have policies against people adopting outdoor cats. Not all do but many do.

 

Were there no other shelters or humane societies or rescues in your area? I always find it odd that people who get refused an adoption run to a store. There are tons of cats everywhere and usually many being given ftgh in the classifieds.

I went to the Humane Society as well. The store had rescue cats from an independent rescue group and the application was just name, address, etc.. It was 12 years ago so I bet that even that group would have denied me a cat. She's a great cat.

[Bluegoat]

A GSD was going to be my next dog, until our lab wandered up and stayed last year.

 

I was talking to SAR and working herding GSD Breeders that use imported stock and care about function and temperament above arbitrary form.

 

Even those involved in French ring or schutzhund have tons of physically healthy and mentally sound dogs perfect for pet homes.

 

ETA: this applies to many other breeds as well, go to the hunters doing trials for solid Labradors, working ranches for Border Collies or Heelers, SAR or hunting competitors for Hounds.

 

I don't know about the others, but you need to be careful about hunting dogs as well.  Especially if the breeder is particularly interested in hunting competitions, the dogs may not be all that suitable as pets, they can be very high strung.

 

I think that there can perhaps be a difference even between a dog doing mainly real work, and a dog who has been bred mainly for competitive events.  In the former case the focus is going to be on usefulness, but in the latter, the focus can be on winning competitions even if there are trade-offs in other ways, and a breeder with a kennel set-up may be willing and able to put up with personality traits that would be detrimental in a working dog.

[hornblower]

I don't know about the others, but you need to be careful about hunting dogs as well.  Especially if the breeder is particularly interested in hunting competitions, the dogs may not be all that suitable as pets, they can be very high strung.

 

I think that there can perhaps be a difference even between a dog doing mainly real work, and a dog who has been bred mainly for competitive events.  In the former case the focus is going to be on usefulness, but in the latter, the focus can be on winning competitions even if there are trade-offs in other ways, and a breeder with a kennel set-up may be willing and able to put up with personality traits that would be detrimental in a working dog.

 

I totally agree. I have an ex-hunting field English Setter & he's Mr Crazypants. 

 

Also, do not get fieldbred border collies unless you have sheep or are planning on competing in agility, treiball, obedience, flyball, and running a 5km several times a week just for fun. Serious, athletic working stock dogs need serious athletic handlers who give them jobs.... 

 

How much crazy high strung genes you get in a dog also varies from breeder to breeder. Some lines are a bit more versatile and focused while others are for serious peeps.  Mind you, those breeders would rarely sell to a 'pet' home, kwim? 

 

 

[heartlikealion]

I know people that have had rats for pets. So I guess the idea of taking one to a vet doesn't sound so crazy to me. Maybe we should ask Ron Weasley about this.

 

The idea of killing one in any matter makes me uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel guilty just killing bugs. I used to let spiders out of the house but haven't done that in some time.Maybe just look dangerous and I'm not good at identifying good vs bad (though I've looked at charts before). Oh yeah and right now I have a huge bite that I suspect is from a spider. Not making me a huge fan tonight.

[Ausmumof3]

 

I totally agree. I have an ex-hunting field English Setter & he's Mr Crazypants.

 

Also, do not get fieldbred border collies unless you have sheep or are planning on competing in agility, treiball, obedience, flyball, and running a 5km several times a week just for fun. Serious, athletic working stock dogs need serious athletic handlers who give them jobs....

 

How much crazy high strung genes you get in a dog also varies from breeder to breeder. Some lines are a bit more versatile and focused while others are for serious peeps. Mind you, those breeders would rarely sell to a 'pet' home, kwim?

 

 

Yep we have a border on a farm with kids to play with all day and stacks of space and he is still kinda crazy. They can run 90km a day - not a good backyard dog.

[Spy Car]

I have heard you say this before and I initially stridently disagreed with you. But I'm starting to find some unexpected agreement with you on this subject. My beautiful boy, Sarge, died of cancer. (Euthenasia after progression of cancer.) His hips were also deteriorating. It does give me pause that seemingly every dog gets cancer now.

 

But I don't know what the solution is.

 

While too few vets are currently trained for the procedure, a vasectomy isn't a big deal as surgeries go.

 

We have the technology for other doggie birth control. Zinc pills are one possibility.

 

We should be able to sterilize dogs or have b/c that doesn't involve removing the sex-hormone producing organs.

 

If you read the 3 major scientific studies on early spay-neuter (The Rottweiler study, the Golden Retriever study, and the Vizsla study) the very significant health repercussions of using gonadectomies as the standard method for population control will make dog lovers reconsider the practice.

 

I'm not exaggerating how damaging de-sexing puppies is to their long term health.

 

Sorry about Sarge.

 

Bill

[Guest]

While too few vets are currently trained for the procedure, a vasectomy isn't a big deal as surgeries go.

 

We have the technology for other doggie birth control. Zinc pills are one possibility.

 

We should be able to sterilize dogs or have b/c that doesn't involve removing the sex-hormone producing organs.

 

If you read the 3 major scientific studies on early spay-neuter (The Rottweiler study, the Golden Retriever study, and the Vizsla study) the very significant health repercussions of using gonadectomies as the standard method for population control will make dog lovers reconsider the practice.

 

I'm not exaggerating how damaging de-sexing puppies is to their long term health.

 

Sorry about Sarge.

 

Bill

It's interesting. Something I might research a little if/when we do pursue another dog.

[Spy Car]

It's interesting. Something I might research a little if/when we do pursue another dog.

 

I'd encourage you (or anyone else considering dog ownership) to do so.

 

The actual medical science is quite damning of current practices. Dogs are paying a heavy price for human irresponsibility.

 

I think you will be very upset to read the statistics on cancer, hip dysplasia, torn ligaments, knee problems, obesity, and behavioral disorders associated with early spay-neuter. 

 

We need to do better.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

Nope. I have no problems with s/n and will continue to advocate for it.

[Guest]

I know the conversation has moved on, and I am woefully behind, but thinking more about this, hasn't pet keeping always been an elitist thing ? We peasants historically kept animals to work or kill/sell/eat, not to love as a companion.

I was thinking about this a little when I was posting originally. I know certain small breeds/toy breeds were specifically bred to be aristocratic companions. But in some ways, I think it is turning back that way; there are already many hundreds of breeds you almost certainly cannot obtain unless you have big bucks. I just think that is sad in general. I think it's sad in general that many kids will not grow up with dog companions simply because it's a luxury the parents cannot justify.

[ktgrok]

I totally agree. I have an ex-hunting field English Setter & he's Mr Crazypants. 

 

Also, do not get fieldbred border collies unless you have sheep or are planning on competing in agility, treiball, obedience, flyball, and running a 5km several times a week just for fun. Serious, athletic working stock dogs need serious athletic handlers who give them jobs.... 

 

How much crazy high strung genes you get in a dog also varies from breeder to breeder. Some lines are a bit more versatile and focused while others are for serious peeps.  Mind you, those breeders would rarely sell to a 'pet' home, kwim? 

 

 

 

My Weimaraner came from field lines.Oh my goodness, that dog was something. She was 7 months old before I saw her actually lay down of her own accord. Before that the only way to get her to stop moving was to put her in a crate with nothing in it. 

[momma2three]

I was thinking about this a little when I was posting originally. I know certain small breeds/toy breeds were specifically bred to be aristocratic companions. But in some ways, I think it is turning back that way; there are already many hundreds of breeds you almost certainly cannot obtain unless you have big bucks. I just think that is sad in general. I think it's sad in general that many kids will not grow up with dog companions simply because it's a luxury the parents cannot justify.

 

I agree with you.

 

My kids desperately want a dog.  But even a rescue costs hundreds of dollars here, and then vet bills are SO expensive that we can't justify it.  My parents just got us a puppy from a box of free puppies down the street, and I suspect were not-great at getting him medical care... they certainly never spent money on doggy day care, professional dog walkers, a giant crate for him to sleep in, etc.  They did get him shots, but that's about the only thing I remember.

 

On the other hand, these costs are because there are expectations that dogs be taken much better care of than they have been in the past.  Which can only be a good thing for the actual animals :)

[Guest]

My Weimaraner came from field lines.Oh my goodness, that dog was something. She was 7 months old before I saw her actually lay down of her own accord. Before that the only way to get her to stop moving was to put her in a crate with nothing in it.

Ha! That sounds like my DS. :D

 

I did not breed him that way on purpose! :D

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree with you.

 

My kids desperately want a dog. But even a rescue costs hundreds of dollars here, and then vet bills are SO expensive that we can't justify it. My parents just got us a puppy from a box of free puppies down the street, and I suspect were not-great at getting him medical care... they certainly never spent money on doggy day care, professional dog walkers, a giant crate for him to sleep in, etc. They did get him shots, but that's about the only thing I remember.

 

On the other hand, these costs are because there are expectations that dogs be taken much better care of than they have been in the past. Which can only be a good thing for the actual animals :)

. My family was like that growing up but my mother was a SAHM, so the dog was not left alone all day. We walked the dog ourselves so there was no need for a dog walker. And instead of a crate, the dog had a designated warm cozy place right inside the door. Needs were still met.

 

In my family now I am a homeschool mom so the dogs are not left alone all day. We walk/run the dogs so there is no need for a dog walker. We use a crate for one dog and not the other (different needs).

 

I think it is today's frenetic lifestyle that gets in the way of having a dog and which can drive up the cost.

 

 

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[jeninok]

I don't know about the others, but you need to be careful about hunting dogs as well.  Especially if the breeder is particularly interested in hunting competitions, the dogs may not be all that suitable as pets, they can be very high strung.

 

I think that there can perhaps be a difference even between a dog doing mainly real work, and a dog who has been bred mainly for competitive events.  In the former case the focus is going to be on usefulness, but in the latter, the focus can be on winning competitions even if there are trade-offs in other ways, and a breeder with a kennel set-up may be willing and able to put up with personality traits that would be detrimental in a working dog.

 

I actually should have been more clear in that I was looking for their wash outs.  Perfectly wonderful dogs without the necessary drive to actually work all day or win competitions.  

 

 

Labs in general can be crazy pants, especially for the first few years!

 

I would never have chosen a lab if this one hadn't literally appeared in our yard as a 5 month old pup.  He is still busy at almost 2, but a good compliment to our HeelerXHusky ( also busy, but with some attitude) and they do a good job wearing each other out. 

[catz]

 

I think it is today's frenetic lifestyle that gets in the way of having a dog and which can drive up the cost.

 

 

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I do totally agree with this.  My own brother has a large, high energy dog and they are out of the house all day every day.  I don't understand getting a dog and especially one that could use 3 walks a day when you're gone that much?  Even homeschooling 2 older kids, we're out of the house enough where I'm glad we don't have a dog (we do have cats). 

 

I'm not a huge fan of pet owner shaming.  I think it's good to be in it for the long haul with your pets.  I have 2 cats that are 13, my last cat lived to 16.  So I consider myself in the long haul.

 

One of my 13 year old cats has a health issue right now.  It looks like an acute kidney issue.  The cat has been more traumatized and withdrawn from the 3 trips to the vet it took.  He's lost a ton of weight.  I'm supposed to do sub-q fluids at home which I try periodically but he's so afraid and resistant, even at home it feels like a losing battle.  He's still eating and drinking and likes humans.  But I'm feeling on alert for this cat.  The last time I took this cat to the vet, he puked the rest of the day.  That is the first time he puked since this health issue came up so I suspect that was anxiety provoking it.  Nervous about our next vet visit.  And worried this vet is going to shame me into extreme medical treatment.