S/o (sort of) Pet Ownership is Becoming Elitist.

[Heathermomster]

I've rescued two cats, paid for a female Rat Terrier, rescued a male RT, and rescued a mutt.  Disease or old age took the cats and the RTs.  My female RT lived to be 16 years old while the male RT lived to be 14.5 years old.  BTW, I flew my female tabby kitty from Spain on a commercial airplane and it didn't cost much back in 1992.  I traveled to Cadiz and paid for her passport.

 

Anyhoo...My mutt is a 3.5 years old chihuahua/doxie mix and was picked up from a small animal rescue organization.   We are his third owners. We like small dogs and my kids selected him.  I walked him every morning at 530 am and potty trained him.  He will potty or go business on command.  When I say kennel, he walks to his crate, opens the crate door with his nose, and hops in.  He does not bark excessively.   This dog is awesome but was a pain in the rear to properly socialize.  We owned him for a year and then he came around.

 

We love animals and want to take care of them.  Vet bills run about $200 per year maybe.  Papi eats maybe 1/4 cup of dry dog food daily.  I don't know whether dog ownership is becoming elitist or not.  I do know that we have loved all of our animals, and they can get costly as they age.  

Edited July 13, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Audrey]

I wouldn't count on that being the case everywhere. FIL is a horse vet.  He would tell you to bring the dog or cat or whatever in on his clinic day and charge you for an office visit at the same rate as any other vet in the area. 

 

If you have a vet who is giving you a price for seeing your dog cut b/c you only need shots, consider yourself a favoured customer. Which is a good thing! :001_smile:

 

Fairfarmhand's experience is the case for me, too.  Our vet is an all-animal vet so treats the livestock and whatever other animals when she comes out here.  When we bring a cat in for something to her office, there is no exam fee unless we're asking her to diagnose something.  Otherwise, it's just the cost for shots, or the cost for a spay/neuter.  She's amazing.  I wish everyone had a vet like her.  She really understands that connection with animals very well and is a pet lover herself.  Yet, she's also very practical and down-to-earth about issues.  She'll tell you all your options, but she'll also be realistic with you without pushing you to one option or another.  She's also genuinely compassionate with euthanasia.  She doesn't just down 'em and freeze 'em.  She's incredibly respectful.  I can't possibly say enough good about her. 

[hornblower]

I had a stroller for my newf x who died last year.

It gave him so much joy in the last couple months of his life, when he was too weak to go for long walks but still enjoyed going places. I'd wheel him to his favourite places, he'd get out & sniff around a bit, and then I'd load him back in his stroller and we'd continue on. 

If I could have bought him more time, I would have but his poor body was just done. I was so glad to have been able to make his last months fun. 

[Audrey]

All I was saying is that if my cat got sick we would choose to continue to make our house and car payments rather than pay for medical care.  She would probably get to live with us until she became so uncomfortable that she would need to be put down. Our cats have been with us 11 and 10 years since they were kittens.

 

Yes, our budget allows for pet food but I'd honestly have to decide whether to pay the car payment or shots for my cats right now.  And I used to buy them the expensive cat food but it was killing them.  They lost a ton of weight but once I couldn't afford it and fed them the cheap stuff they regained their health and put on weight again.  

 

I wish I could afford the expensive vet bills but I can't and the farm vet around here is the most expensive one of all where we'd probably spend closer to $600 for two cats to get yearly shots and a check-up.  

 

I do see my cats as family members but I also have to be realistic about finances and making sure the family has a place to live and food to eat..

 

It's a matter of priorities.  I can't say yours are better than mine or vice versa.  You've got yours.  I've got mine.  Everyone else is entitled to have theirs. 

 

FWIW, there are two things that dh and I agree that we will always find a way to get the money to pay for them when they need it.  One of those things is our cats.  The other thing is our guitars.    I've even been accused of only spending my money on cats and guitars.  If that is true, that's fine by me.  I could spend it on worse things than that.

[Arcadia]

Leopard gecko?

My home indoor temperature fluctuates between too hot or too cold for leopard gecko, probably for all reptiles. My house temp goes from 56degF to 100degF (in which we will "escape" by walking to the library for air-con).

[hornblower]

I'm sorry if I've had a role in upsetting you, Hornblower. I consider you the Hive Authority on animals (well, there are a couple others; Pawz and Spy car) and I would absolutely seek out your thoughts on an animal care question.

 

I can't imagine hamster surgery, though.

It was a very nice hamster who lived for about a year after having this lump removed :D 

 

We currently have a rat who is probably going to be separated from his testicles soon because he's picking fights with his some of his cagemates. His neuter will probably cost about 200. I have spayed females too. Their surgery is also expensive though these were spayed by the rescue I adopted them from. 

 

Mammary tumors, weird tumors and lumps are pretty easy surgeries, usually end up costing about $300-400 

 

A humane euthanasia for a rat or hamster is about a 100.  People forget to factor in all these costs (plus the huge costs of proper housing because the enclosures they sell in regular pet stores are not suitable at all..) when they get a small 'pocket pet'. 

For me, pets are cheaper than therapy. My setter makes me laugh every single day. My malamute is a constant comfort. I still miss my newfie Bear -  he taught me so much about being loved by a dog. 

 

Our rats and hamsters were all special, with special personalities and quirks and each brought us different gifts.  

 

What I try to share is that there is a depth of relationships that many people close themselves off from. The phrase "it's just a _____" is one of the most awful phrases. It numbs children, it convinces people not to feel through the repetition of a lie, and it humiliates those who feel deeply for the animals who share their lives. It's just a house, just furniture, just a car; it's not just a dog or a cat or a horse or.... 

Edited July 13, 2016 by hornblower

[KungFuPanda]

For anyone looking -- just a heads up -- not all poodle/bichon crosses are hypoallergenic.

 

Our rescued poodle/bichon crosses (so say their vet records -- with one vet their whole lives before coming to us) are NOT hypollergenic. We love them! We adore them! Allergic dd adores them! We bathe them regularly and vacuum (dander only, because there's no shedding) often, but she sill needs to take allergy pills several days a week when she's home/around them.

 

Dd seems to have gotten more sensitive to them over time. (When we first got them we thought she wasn't allergic to them because there was no reaction.)

I thought these dogs were only allergy-free for people who are specifically allergic to fur and if you're allergic to dander or saliva the poodle crosses won't help.

[Pawz4me]

Yes, when I took my kitty in, the vet was saying they do the Feline Leukemia vax less often now because there noticed cancer cells at the injection site. This kind of horrifies me, though.

 

 

 

That's not new. My oldest cat is around 14 and the feline leukemia vaccine was being used judiciously when we got him. Or at least it wasn't a new thing for my vet way back then. There are risks/benefits for almost all vaccines. If I had a cat who went outside I'd get that one. Our cats stay inside all the time, so there's zero need for it.

 

 

I totally get wanting a specific breed. I grew up with German shepherds. That's my idea of a real dog. They're these brilliant people pleasers who make you feel safe from snakes and salesmen. As an adult, we did the "right" thing and got a pound hound. It's a greyhound mix. He's crazy. He's afraid of thunder, the low-battery beep on the fire alarms, sudden movements, round foods, bathrooms, water hoses, febreeze, men, and goung out the front door unleashed. The list is longer, but you get the idea. I love him. He's family. He's just not terribly dog-like.

 

It's the preference for small dogs that confuses me. Large dogs seemed so much more relaxed and trainable and less of a constant tripping hazard.

 

I'm not picky in any way, shape or form about dogs. ;) I like them all. I never have understood why anyone stereotypes dogs based on size, or only likes big dogs or only small ones. They're all dogs and are much more alike than different. IME the stereotypes simply aren't true. I've had many dogs over the years and fostered MANY more. Of my own dogs, the larger ones have been the most reactive and had the most behavioral issues by far. My best dog all around was a not quite 30 pound beagle. Second best is our Shih Tzu. He's quiet and calm for the most part. He makes me laugh when we go walking -- all the dogs see us out their windows or from their fenced back yards and bark their heads off. And he just looks at them like "What?" and keeps on walking. :lol: For the most part he's bomb proof (as was the beagle). OTOH, several of our larger dogs had really challenging issues with reactivity, and I saw that quite a lot in the dogs I fostered. One thing's for sure -- an out of control, reactive-to-everything small dog is a LOT easier to control than a reactive-to-everything 80 pounder. The worst dog I had for being constantly under foot/in the way was our late Brittany, who weighed in at 45-50 pounds. He was like the stickiest velcro you've ever seen. If he wasn't glued to my side he wasn't happy.

 

My pet peeve (although I've gotten to the point it really just makes me sigh and roll my eyes) is people who want a big guardian type dog to protect them and then go on and on about alpha/dominance issues. The whole theory is so flawed it's really impossible to make any sense of it at all, but I think those people really want to have their cake and eat it, too, and totally don't understand even the little that is understandable about that theory.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Pawz4me

[Joyofsixreboot]

This may depend on where you live. There are plenty of free puppies and kittens where I live ( that is not all good of course). Our own pets are a stray cat and a farm puppy. I do know people who spend crazy amounts on " spoiling " their pets but by no means everyone. Many people here still think of cats and dogs as working parts of the farm.

Edited July 13, 2016 by joyofsix

[Guest]

For anyone looking -- just a heads up -- not all poodle/bichon crosses are hypoallergenic.

 

Our rescued poodle/bichon crosses (so say their vet records -- with one vet their whole lives before coming to us) are NOT hypollergenic. We love them! We adore them! Allergic dd adores them! We bathe them regularly and vacuum (dander only, because there's no shedding) often, but she sill needs to take allergy pills several days a week when she's home/around them.

 

Dd seems to have gotten more sensitive to them over time. (When we first got them we thought she wasn't allergic to them because there was no reaction.)

No, they are not. Read the article Hornblower linked about the "inventor" of the Labradoodle regretting his decision.

 

This is part of what bothers me. Anything crossed with a Poodle or a Bichon is marketed as a non-shedding, hypoallergenic dog, but allergies are not simple and heritibility of traits is not guaranteed.

 

To be fair, I have heard some people more realistically confess that their cross sheds less but does shed and people I know with a known allergy to dogs either get a purebred poodle or don't get dogs at all.

[Guest]

It was a very nice hamster who lived for about a year after having this lump removed :D

 

We currently have a rat who is probably going to be separated from his testicles soon because he's picking fights with his some of his cagemates. His neuter will probably cost about 200. I have spayed females too. Their surgery is also expensive though these were spayed by the rescue I adopted them from.

 

Mammary tumors, weird tumors and lumps are pretty easy surgeries, usually end up costing about $300-400

 

A humane euthanasia for a rat or hamster is about a 100. People forget to factor in all these costs (plus the huge costs of proper housing because the enclosures they sell in regular pet stores are not suitable at all..) when they get a small 'pocket pet'.

For me, pets are cheaper than therapy. My setter makes me laugh every single day. My malamute is a constant comfort. I still miss my newfie Bear - he taught me so much about being loved by a dog.

 

Our rats and hamsters were all special, with special personalities and quirks and each brought us different gifts.

 

What I try to share is that there is a depth of relationships that many people close themselves off from. The phrase "it's just a _____" is one of the most awful phrases. It numbs children, it convinces people not to feel through the repetition of a lie, and it humiliates those who feel deeply for the animals who share their lives. It's just a house, just furniture, just a car; it's not just a dog or a cat or a horse or....

I do agree that those habittrail type cages are the worst thing ever. We've kept hamsters quite well in 10-gallon aquariums.

 

About people forgetting to factor euthenasia or surgery for a hamster, though, it's not a "forgotten" expense so much as a never-considered expense. I owned hamsters as a kid and my boys have owned a few and I can tell you, it never entered my head that surgery or euthenasia for a hamster was even possible, let alone likely to be something we would ever do. Most hamsters I've had just curled up as if sleeping and never woke up. I couldn't have told you they had tumors or congestive heart failure or whatever.

 

Hamsters are generally viewed as a 2-3 year friend; indeed, that amounts to a benefit for many parents. One doesn't have to project 15 years into the future and try to guess who will care for the pet when the kid heads to college or whatever happens far into the future. People find it manageable to accept a small, inexpensive pet that is only going to be around for 3 years at the very longest.

 

I think if someone wants to take a hamster to the vet and have a tumor removed, welll, that's very kind. But no, I don't think vetrinary care or end-of-life costs are something people should consider when getting a pocket pet. IMO that goes right back to the elitist attitude I talked about. I had hamsters as a child and we were poor folks. I think Dusty, Dusty II, Frenchie and Treasure had pretty good lives for little rodents, but if my parents had thought they needed to factor a six-month check up and $100 euthenasia into the matter, I wouldn't have had that experience.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I do agree that those habittrail type cages are the worst thing ever. We've kept hamsters quite well in 10-gallon aquariums.

 

About people forgetting to factor euthenasia or surgery for a hamster, though, it's not a "forgotten" expense so much as a never-considered expense. I owned hamsters as a kid and my boys have owned a few and I can tell you, it never entered my head that surgery or euthenasia for a hamster was even possible, let alone likely to be something we would ever do. Most hamsters I've had just curled up as if sleeping and never woke up. I couldn't have told you they had tumors or congestive heart failure or whatever.

 

Hamsters are generally viewed as a 2-3 year friend; indeed, that amounts to a benefit for many parents. One doesn't have to project 15 years into the future and try to guess who will care for the pet when the kid heads to college or whatever happens far into the future. People find it manageable to accept a small, inexpensive pet that is only going to be around for 3 years at the very longest.

 

I think if someone wants to take a hamster to the vet and have a tumor removed, welll, that's very kind. But no, I don't think vetrinary care or end-of-life costs are something people should consider when getting a pocket pet. IMO that goes right back to the elitist attitude I talked about. I had hamsters as a child and we were poor folks. I think Dusty, Dusty II, Frenchie and Treasure had pretty good lives for little rodents, but if my parents had thought they needed to factor a six-month check up and $100 euthenasia into the matter, I wouldn't have had that experience.

 

I agree.  I would never spend that kind of money on a hamster.  I would never pay for expensive surgeries for them either.  I really see no point in that. 

 

I had two guinea pigs growing up.  They lived as long as expected and showed no signs of problems before dying. 

[Veritaserum]

We have two cats. One we got from a neighbor who was moving and couldn't take her. The other we adopted from a rescue. Our vet charges around $30 for a visit. Even when we needed to get shots for our kitten, we walked out of there for well under $100. I buy their food and litter at the grocery store or Costco.

 

We owned a dog for about three days until we realized I and several of the children are allergic (eyes swelling up, trouble breathing). That was a purebred golden retriever, so she was expensive. She was a really sweet dog, but we couldn't keep her. The original owners took her back (even refunding our money) and found another home for her a few days later.

 

I know lots of people who adopt animals from rescues or shelters, which usually costs something like $50 or less.

[Bluegoat]

Tangent: when I was a kid, maybe 12 or so, I read an article entitled, "What Man Has Done To Dogs." Vividly I remember that article, it had an enormous impact on me. It showed many breeds whose health has deteriorated due to selective breeding. I even devised a repair plan for several breeds. I was going to create a new, healthy version of a Bulldog, Boxer, Dachund, German Shepherd, Pekinese and a couple others, including a plan for breeding Doberman Pinschers and Great Danes that would have naturally erect ears. :D I always was a big dreamer.

 

There are a lot of breeding programs, on a small scale, like this around now.  I think people are finding it harder and harder to look at those prebred dogs and see anything how they have any real relation to the same dog 100 years ago.  I recently say a few very high end Bull Terriers - I couldn't really think about them as anything other than a deliberately created genetic freak - someone decided they needed to have a giant lump between their eyes because ????  No wonder they seem nutty.

 

These are generally individuals though, as far as I know, so one person on the west coast may use a totally different method of reconstituting a breed than some other person on the east coast.  I wonder if at some point there may not be a move to create some sort of new organization with a more sensible view of dog breeding. 

 

The kennel clubs of course hate this and do their best to say it is some sort of irresponsible breeding - not only does the move away from purebreds impact them financially, if people come to think they have actually destroyed beloved dog types, it destroys their moral authority - their claim that they are protectors and promotors of good breeding, that they preserve historic breeds or improve them.  And that, in turn, impacts the claim that a responsible breeder would only breed purebreds - because would a responsible breeder really want to be in a system that impacts the breeds in that way?

 

I'm not sure why people don't catch on that dogs aren't somehow wildly different than, say, horses or livestock or other working animals when it comes to principles of breeding.  Cross-breeds are common in those types of animals, and in many cases really preferred for certain types of work. 

[RoughCollie]

 

 

We actually have two "designer breed" dogs. They are "supposed to be" hypoallergenic, but they are NOT.  So please don't anyone believe a dog is hypoallergenic unless it's been proven for that particular dog.

 

 

Actually, whether a dog is hypoallergenic has to do with a particular person is allergic to it.

 

I am an adoption coordinator for a breed-specific rescue, and this breed is supposedly hypoallergenic. We get applicants who are allergic to dogs, and we have an allergy policy in place and we always ask if anyone in the household is allergic to dogs and explain how no breed or dog is truly hypoallergenic. 

 

Sometimes people either lie or they just don't realize that a family is allergic to dogs. The last time this happened, the wife had never been allergic to any dog. The  dog the couple was fostering to adopt caused her such severe allergies that she had to move out of the house while we found the dog a foster home. Her choice was basically to stay and be able to breathe, or to move out.

 

[poppy]

 

to me this is what a reputable breeder is: (source:  No Puppy Mills Canada).  

 

I'd also add - They rarely advertise. They frequently have wait lists for puppies.

 

I also have a personal bias for dogs that are titled in more than just conformation but that's a bit breed dependent too.... 

 

 

 

A reputable breeder:

• Takes responsible care of all of his or her dogs (breeding stock & puppies), and  provides:

a)       Companionship, affection, interaction & attention

b)       Nutritious quality dog food & fresh clean water

c)       Immunization

d)       Proper vet care

e)       Parasite prevention/treatment

f)        Grooming

g)       Exercise

h)       Socialization 

• Belongs to a national (and/or local) breed club.

• Abides by their breed club's Code of Ethics.

• Tests their breeding stock for any congenital diseases, conditions  (ie: hip dysplasia, Von Willebrand's Disease, retinal dyslasia, etc.),  and strives to eliminate genetic problems by breeding only sound dogs  (shown to be free of any serious physical conditions and/or temperament problems) .

•  Only breeds dogs that have excellent temperaments.

•   Is very knowledgeable about their breed.

•  Strives to better their breed.

•  Immunizes their puppies' Sires and Dams (& their Puppies) appropriate for location and age of pups/dogs.

• Screens potential owners thoroughly, and does not sell to those who are  unsuitable.*

  Educates potential owners, and discloses any pertinent information about  their breed.

• Has a spay & neuter contract or alters dogs prior to sale

•  Offers new puppy owners guidance and support (for the puppy's entire  lifetime).

• NEVER sells puppies to puppy brokers, pet shops or puppy outlets of any kind  (including so-called "Kennel Clubs"). Period.

•  Shows, trials and/or titles their dogs.

• Supports or participates in breed rescue work whenever possible.

• Never breeds out of greed (and never over-breeds).

• Will take back a puppy or dog back at any time.

   

   

   

  *A reputable breeder wants to know as much about you, your household, your schedule and your ability to properly care for a puppy (throughout its entire lifetime), this may include an application, reference and home check, as you want to know about the breeder's puppies.

 

 

You should only ever buy a (non-rescue) dog from someone who does dog shows? I really, really don't get the dog show thing.

[Bluegoat]

As far as the OP question.

 

Yes, I do.  THat doesn't mean that there were never people who were abusive, or that there are now no poor people with dogs or cats.

 

But if I look back at the way people lived with animals, say, 50 years ago, and they way they live now, I would say in general that the expectations that people have are changing, and those expectations are becoming more and more mainstream.

 

You can see this even in literature, from something like Harry the Dirty Dog to James Herriot stories.  And I'm not talking about bad owners, which always seem to have existed, but people who really felt responsible for and actually liked their pets.

 

I sometimes think it has mirrored other trends, particularly parenting styles and to some extent regulation of community activity.  Part of it has also been propaganda from the kennel clubs.

 

Some specific things I can think of - the big one is absolutely cost - for a variety of reasons, cost to get a purebred dog has gone up, the social disapproval or a mutt has gone down, and while shelters used to be a good bet, they have increasingly become restrictive and not an option for many.  So many people who would be good owners simply can't get a dog from a shelter because they don't meet the requirements - here, it is nearly impossible for anyone with kids.

 

Expectations around being home with the dog - this is an interesting one.  There are still plenty of people who leave their dog home, but more and more often it's being considered the proper thing to do in that situation is daycare, or have someone come into your home. 

 

Somewhat related to this, many places seem to have increasing restrictions on things like normal dog barking in the yard.  I also see this with cats - it is hard to imagine serious restrictions on outdoor cats 50 years ago, now city councils are commonly considering them.  (Even in a port city like mine where reduction of cats seems to have a clear relationship to rodent problems.)  Vets can put a lot of pressure on people about this as well, if they aren't used to farm cats.  Longevity seems the main way they quantify a good life for a cat - there seems to be an assumption that the lifelong indoor cat isn't less happy than the outdoor cat.

 

Vet costs - as many have mentioned, pressure over expensive and frequent treatments.  Often recommending measures (tests etc) without considering what would come out of them.  My step-dad has mentioned a few times that their vets demand tests and such that don't happen on a routine basis for human patients.  I tend to think the change to the corporate model of vetting has had a significant impact here.

 

Culturally, yes, what is considered good pet ownership is IMO becoming something that is really only open to the well-off, and not just because that is the most appropriate level of care, but for other cultural reasons.

[Bluegoat]

Fairfarmhand's experience is the case for me, too.  Our vet is an all-animal vet so treats the livestock and whatever other animals when she comes out here.  When we bring a cat in for something to her office, there is no exam fee unless we're asking her to diagnose something.  Otherwise, it's just the cost for shots, or the cost for a spay/neuter.  She's amazing.  I wish everyone had a vet like her.  She really understands that connection with animals very well and is a pet lover herself.  Yet, she's also very practical and down-to-earth about issues.  She'll tell you all your options, but she'll also be realistic with you without pushing you to one option or another.  She's also genuinely compassionate with euthanasia.  She doesn't just down 'em and freeze 'em.  She's incredibly respectful.  I can't possibly say enough good about her. 

 

 

We had similar experiences with rural vets.  Sometimes with the exam fee, though not always.  But the main difference was in their attitude or philosophy.

[hornblower]

...Most hamsters I've had just curled up as if sleeping and never woke up. I couldn't have told you they had tumors or congestive heart failure or whatever.

 

... I had hamsters as a child and we were poor folks. I think Dusty, Dusty II, Frenchie and Treasure had pretty good lives for little rodents, but if my parents had thought they needed to factor a six-month check up and $100 euthenasia into the matter, I wouldn't have had that experience.

Ok, respectfully, I don't think you had a good experience because what it taught you is that some animals' pain is not worth considering.

 

They feel pain just like any other animal.

 

They get sick, get infections, (wet tail is a common easily treated infection which requires medications for ex.) and they feel pain. They get broken legs frequently from being mishandled by children, they get wet tail, they get upper resp infections, many lines of rats are very prone to tumours. These things cause pain and to stand and watch while a pet is in pain when you can relieve that pain is IMO wrong.

 

I have had rodents pass on their own. But every one has had vet care leading to that point, consideration of whether they needed pain relief (NSAIDs, steroids, narcotic) and quality of life considerations which include the " do we wait this or do we ask the vet to humanely end now"process.

 

Doing small animal rescue is one of the most heartbreaking things. The neglect, and sometimes the outright cruelty is awful. It's like people don't realize these critters feel. But they do.

 

As fas habitats, one of our current fave rat set ups is a "Double critter nation" It's nice and big. We also have large Martens cages. Our guys get free range time as well....

[Bluegoat]

No, they are not. Read the article Hornblower linked about the "inventor" of the Labradoodle regretting his decision.

 

This is part of what bothers me. Anything crossed with a Poodle or a Bichon is marketed as a non-shedding, hypoallergenic dog, but allergies are not simple and heritibility of traits is not guaranteed.

 

To be fair, I have heard some people more realistically confess that their cross sheds less but does shed and people I know with a known allergy to dogs either get a purebred poodle or don't get dogs at all.

 

You know though, this isn't dissimilar for purebreds.  People get purebreds like a poodle because they are marketed as hypoallergenic, but that isn't something that works for everyone either, it depends a lot on the allergy sufferer.  And people often buy purebreds for some marketed breed characteristic, which may or may not work out even in a purebred.  That kind of thing is one of the reasons purebreds are actually recommended, but it leads to inappropriate expectations among people who haven't really understood what they are getting into.

[hornblower]

Again, historically people behaved differently about children as well.

I already mentioned the Anne of Green Gables examples.

 

On this board too people have mentioned how the pioneers considered leaving behind children because some kids were missing and the group was moving west and there was no time to look for them.

 

There was a certain callousness and roughness and I don't think it should be romanticized wrt to children or animals.

[Bluegoat]

I do agree that those habittrail type cages are the worst thing ever. We've kept hamsters quite well in 10-gallon aquariums.

 

About people forgetting to factor euthenasia or surgery for a hamster, though, it's not a "forgotten" expense so much as a never-considered expense. I owned hamsters as a kid and my boys have owned a few and I can tell you, it never entered my head that surgery or euthenasia for a hamster was even possible, let alone likely to be something we would ever do. Most hamsters I've had just curled up as if sleeping and never woke up. I couldn't have told you they had tumors or congestive heart failure or whatever.

 

Hamsters are generally viewed as a 2-3 year friend; indeed, that amounts to a benefit for many parents. One doesn't have to project 15 years into the future and try to guess who will care for the pet when the kid heads to college or whatever happens far into the future. People find it manageable to accept a small, inexpensive pet that is only going to be around for 3 years at the very longest.

 

I think if someone wants to take a hamster to the vet and have a tumor removed, welll, that's very kind. But no, I don't think vetrinary care or end-of-life costs are something people should consider when getting a pocket pet. IMO that goes right back to the elitist attitude I talked about. I had hamsters as a child and we were poor folks. I think Dusty, Dusty II, Frenchie and Treasure had pretty good lives for little rodents, but if my parents had thought they needed to factor a six-month check up and $100 euthenasia into the matter, I wouldn't have had that experience.

 

Well, I tend to agree that vetting is an overlooked expense for small animals, because in the end, you don't know if you will need it.

 

I used to keep rats, which are great pets, and I've had hamsters, and most f them died fairly obviously, they were in pain or suffering seriously.  Now - it is possible to euthanize a small animal at home and some feel that is better than a vet visit when done properly, but it comes up.  And tumors and such are pretty darn common. 

 

Sure, you can let your pet waste away over a month or two, and I don't think there is a necessity to have a removal, but honestly I think that it is cruel to let them suffer to that extent. 

[Bluegoat]

Again, historically people behaved differently about children as well.

I already mentioned the Anne of Green Gables examples.

 

On this board too people have mentioned how the pioneers considered leaving behind children because some kids were missing and the group was moving west and there was no time to look for them.

 

There was a certain callousness and roughness and I don't think it should be romanticized wrt to children or animals.

 

The question was has pet owning become elitist, and I think changed attitudes are a reason that is in fact increasingly true.

 

Are the changed attitudes better or worse - well, that is a different question.  I would say that in some ways they are both. Passing orphans around is bad, though I would not say it is much different in the foster care system. I don't think the romantisization of children or animals is a good thing, however, and there is plenty going on in our attitude to kids and pets that isn't great for either.

[Guest]

Well, I tend to agree that vetting is an overlooked expense for small animals, because in the end, you don't know if you will need it.

 

I used to keep rats, which are great pets, and I've had hamsters, and most f them died fairly obviously, they were in pain or suffering seriously. Now - it is possible to euthanize a small animal at home and some feel that is better than a vet visit when done properly, but it comes up. And tumors and such are pretty darn common.

 

Sure, you can let your pet waste away over a month or two, and I don't think there is a necessity to have a removal, but honestly I think that it is cruel to let them suffer to that extent.

That's weird to me; I've never had that happen with a hamster. I never had a hamster that had obvious growths, or one that looked a hot mess as it got skinnier and died. Except for one who died from an accidental situation and another that escaped (in my childhood) and was never found, all hamsters just got sleepier and then died in their ordinary sleeping spot and position.

[hornblower]

You should only ever buy a (non-rescue) dog from someone who does dog shows? I really, really don't get the dog show thing.

I specifically said I prefer to see titles not just in conformation (dog show) but also in other venues (tracking, agility, obedience, hunt etc)

 

The reason for this provision is that these are the people who know their breed.

 

I have huge issues with some parts of the conformation world fwiw so that is why I like to add function (yeah conformation says it covers form and function but too many dogs in the show ring can't function for the job they were bred to do) .

 

But I like to see that the breeders dogs are capable of doing stuff and are involved in their club. You build a reputation through competing. People will know whether your dogs have sketchy temperaments or if you're a vicious crank. The benefit of showing for me as a consumer is not the titles on the dogs, it's the reputation the breeder develops ...and which you can find out by hanging out with them...

[Guest]

Again, historically people behaved differently about children as well.

I already mentioned the Anne of Green Gables examples.

 

On this board too people have mentioned how the pioneers considered leaving behind children because some kids were missing and the group was moving west and there was no time to look for them.

 

There was a certain callousness and roughness and I don't think it should be romanticized wrt to children or animals.

I agree; also women or people of lower social classes - all treated poorly. But the outcome is not the same for several reasons.

 

Everyone knows it's an expensive committment to have a child, but no PSA program tries to say "poor people shouldn't have children." There are more ways than ever to delay or prevent having a child/more children, so fewer people mindlessly have kids with no idea how to pay for the child's expenses. There are also a multitude of programs designed to help lower-income people care for their children, prevent disease, obtain food, shelter, heat, provide at least a basic education, and so on.

 

Again, I did say I am not sure what the solution is, and I'm grateful that many pets live far better lives than in times past.

[Dmmetler]

My home indoor temperature fluctuates between too hot or too cold for leopard gecko, probably for all reptiles. My house temp goes from 56degF to 100degF (in which we will "escape" by walking to the library for air-con).

Most reptiles require supplemental heating in the USA during the winter. They need that heat in order to digest well.

 

Too hot depends on the species. Some are quite happy in the 100 degree range, especially with high humidity. One reason why so many reptile breeders are in S. FL, S. Ca, and, more and more, in South America is that tropical species are cheap to keep there-much less supplemental heating required (1 in. 3 bearded dragons and iguanas sold in the USA comes from a single mass breeder in San Salvador.). I personally believe no breeding of non-natives should be allowed anywhere that doesn't get freezing temperatures for at least 30 days in the winter, because the combination of breeding populations and tropical storms/hurricanes is an invasive species waiting to happen.

 

And with reptiles, just like with dogs and cats, there are a lot of irreponsible backyard breeders, and pet store snakes and lizards tend to come from the equivalent of a puppy mill. Trade shows are often a mix of the highly responsible, does it for love and for the science of it, and takes a loss on every snake sold breeders and the puppy mill equivalents. Which is one reason why we've stopped going unless DD is there as part of a reptile education program or rescue group, because they're quite sad.

 

One thing that some folks are pushing for is morph standards for snakes and an equivalent to AKC or CFA registration for snakes-not just physical appearance, but for the health and well-being of the animal, because there are starting to be some really, really nasty recessives popping up, and as long as pretty patterns are worth more even if they are linked to neurological disabilities in the animals, it will continue.

 

One problem faced for reptiles is that a pet store snake or lizard is basically at the disposable pet price point, but most live a long time, far longer than a dog or cat. That's a combination that leads to a lot of healthy adult animals dumped on rescues (and there are far fewer rescues for reptiles than for dogs or cats), abandoned outside (which either dooms the animal to death or has real ecological consequences), or neglected. At least if a parent buys a child a hamster on impulse, the hamster isn't going to live for decades. That's not the case with a baby ball python or iguana-but both are often purchased with about the same amount of background research as a hamster.

[ktgrok]

I've paid to have hedgehogs examined, and I've had a guinea pig that had an infection that I had on two different antibiotics, plus was syringe feeding a mixture of yogurt, pellets, and it's own poop. But I think it's okay to not do that, AS LONG as pain is controlled. I do think euthanasia should be easier to access and inexpensive. But again, I have no problem euthanizing a very sick animal then getting a healthy one via rescue, versus the healthy one ending up euthanized for lack of a home. I'd feel differently if we had fewer perfectly nice, perfectly healthy animals being euthanized every single day in my area. 

[Wheres Toto]

I totally get wanting a specific breed. I grew up with German shepherds. That's my idea of a real dog. They're these brilliant people pleasers who make you feel safe from snakes and salesmen. As an adult, we did the "right" thing and got a pound hound. It's a greyhound mix. He's crazy. He's afraid of thunder, the low-battery beep on the fire alarms, sudden movements, round foods, bathrooms, water hoses, febreeze, men, and goung out the front door unleashed. The list is longer, but you get the idea. I love him. He's family. He's just not terribly dog-like.

 

It's the preference for small dogs that confuses me. Large dogs seemed so much more relaxed and trainable and less of a constant tripping hazard.

 

We needed to get a small/medium sized dog because we have a small house, but I refused to get what I call a "yippy" dog.  Dh had Samoyeds before we got married and one was around for the first 9 or 10 years we were married.  He'd basically take up the entire floor space when he'd lay down.   We do have a large property and decent sized fenced in yard which helps.

 

After checking rescues, shelters (both of which had strict rules about children) we ended up getting our Brittney from a breeder.  We researched, knew others with the breed, and were prepared but our particular dog has anxiety. Primarily separation anxiety although we are discovering a few other things (mainly fireworks, so not that unusual).   So, it's certainly possible to be prepared but have a surprise anyway.

 

We are doing all the usual vet visits, bought lots of toys, are working on his anxiety with supplements and are going to be getting a thundercoat, he eats the food he was eating with the breeder (I'd have to look at the bag to see what it is but we can buy it at the supermarket).  We aren't paying for doggy daycare (he's never alone for more than a few hours) or outside training but we will be joining a 4-H dog club in the Fall.   I guess we're mid of the road owners.

 

I had a shelter dog for a long time from before oldest was born until she was 6 or 7.  She was an absolute sweetheart husky mix, but was extremely neurotic.  She was picked up stray and someone had beat her.   I loved her but don't know if we would have been able to handle her if we had kids first. 

[hornblower]

I agree; also women or people of lower social classes - all treated poorly. But the outcome is not the same for several reasons.

 

Everyone knows it's an expensive committment to have a child, but no PSA program tries to say "poor people shouldn't have children." There are more ways than ever to delay or prevent having a child/more children, so fewer people mindlessly have kids with no idea how to pay for the child's expenses. There are also a multitude of programs designed to help lower-income people care for their children, prevent disease, obtain food, shelter, heat, provide at least a basic education, and so on.

 

Again, I did say I am not sure what the solution is, and I'm grateful that many pets live far better lives than in times past.

 

We also have programs to help low income pet owners. It's a hard balance to strike though; sometimes you help and the person turns around and acquires more pets. I don't know how I feel about spending my time fundraising for weekends on end to support someone acquiring more and more pets which they're not able to take care of properly.  

 

I'd actually like to see more government funded programs for pets. The municipalities should be funding low cost s/n initiatives and discount vet visits. They can fund them from taxes collected from breeders & the awful stores which continue to sell live animals....   There are a few municipalities doing programs like this so perhaps that will be a way forward but that will take time. 

 

Right now, while I think caring for a pet is an extremely enriching experience, at some point I think it's like world travel. Not everyone is going to be able to afford to travel internationally.  

 

It's a luxury. I don't think it's a right to have a pet.  

 

I can't afford a horse. I would like to care for a horse. I can get a horse for free or almost. But I can't afford to keep a horse & so I'm not getting a horse.  I don't think it's my right to get one, then feed it substandard feed, keep it in a poor location with no turnout, refuse to call a farrier, never have teeth floated, worm it infrequently etc. It would be wrong to do that so unless I get lots of money and a new place to live, I won't be getting a horse..... 

 

 

I think ktgrok raises a really tough issue: It does become difficult in those areas where shelters are still killing tons of healthy animals. In my area, large urban areas are essentially no kill and actually don't have tons of animals. (our northern and remote shelters are a different issue & most reputable rescues now are working on a 3 prong approach in those communities: moving excess animals out to areas where they can be adopted; spay and neuter everything you can get your hands on; education on animal welfare and standards of care). 

 

There's this spectrum of:

 

abuse, neglect, substandard care, basic care, good care, excellent care, boutique care, over the top crazy

 

(& over the top crazy is usually more about the person than the animal ... in this case it can actually veer right back into abuse.... so in that case it would be a circle and not a line...) 

 

If you can place an animal in basic, good, excellent - well that's great. 

 

I'm not happy placing an animal in substandard. I think part of animal rescue is educating everyone on what the standards are & I would not knowingly place an animal in substandard. Otoh, we have the luxury of foster homes and it's not that common any more to kill for space here.  It is difficult when the choice is killing or placing in a substandard home. There are things worse than death.... And sometimes the substandard home, with time & education becomes a good home so there's that too.... 

 

Bottom line is that people need to stop breeding & dumping.... so people in rescue aren't faced with having to decide about handing a pet over to the first schmuck who comes asking for it. 

 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

Ok, respectfully, I don't think you had a good experience because what it taught you is that some animals' pain is not worth considering.

 

 

Respectfully, I think that is completely erroneous.

 

Life is pain. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.

 

None of us, be it hamster or human, get through life without pain. Pain is something we simply learn as part of life. To be endured. To be gotten through. To expect if we have lived. To accept with age. A life well considered is often full of pain. That's the price of living.

 

Millions of humans live with pain every day. It is not because those who love them don't care for them or their pain. It's because that's life whether we like or not.

 

And the same is true of animals, be they pets or not.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's weird to me; I've never had that happen with a hamster. I never had a hamster that had obvious growths, or one that looked a hot mess as it got skinnier and died. Except for one who died from an accidental situation and another that escaped (in my childhood) and was never found, all hamsters just got sleepier and then died in their ordinary sleeping spot and position.

 

Never had that happen with my guinea pigs and nor with my sister's hamster.  From one day to the next they were dead.  They were old though.

 

Of course I can't imagine waiting a month of looking at the animal suffering.  I'd at least bring it to the vet to be euthanized if that were the case.

[LucyStoner]

I don't know. On the one hand, there have always been pricy breeds associated with owning some dogs and cats. On the other, we have definitely raised the bar about what people are expected to spend on their pet.

 

I think more so than the initial cost of the pet, there's an escalating standard in some folks minds about what constitutes a good or good enough pet owner. Some people do seem to think that you can't be a good pet owner unless you buy super pricey food and can pay for advanced medical procedures out of pocket. I think that is where the class snobbery really comes in.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Respectfully, I think that is completely erroneous.

 

Life is pain. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.

 

None of us, be it hamster or human, get through life without pain. Pain is something we simply learn as part of life. To be endured. To be gotten through. To expect if we have lived. To accept with age. A life well considered is often full of pain. That's the price of living.

 

Millions of humans live with pain every day. It is not because those who love them don't care for them or their pain. It's because that's life whether we like or not.

 

And the same is true of animals, be they pets or not.

 

Yes and I myself have foregone medical care because frankly I could not afford it.  Humans barely give a crap about other humans suffering, but I'm a jerk because I won't save a hamster? 

[Dmmetler]

One thing about vet care-if you have exotics, and that includes most small rodents, ferrets, hedgehogs, reptiles, amphibians, birds, etc, you may or may not have a competent vet who is willing to see them near you. There are two vets in our entire metropolitan area who are willing to see reptiles at all. One is excellent-and is also the vet on call for the local zoo for reptiles and birds. The other...well, she considers a snake a snake. Which means that she's done things like tell a Kenyan Sand Boa owner that the reason her snake wasn't eating was that it was too hot and to reduce temperatures. If the KSB's owner had followed that advice, the snake would probably have gotten a respiratory infection, because the temperatures she recommended were the range that is good for North American snakes, but were a good 20 degrees F below what a KSB requires. If the snake had eaten in that temperature range, it could have died because it would have been unable to digest. Stuff like that is very, very common. The fact is, a good exotic vet is a specialist. And not all areas that have pet stores actually have a good specialist available for all the animals they sell.

[hornblower]

I'm not doing a head flounce door slam bye bye, but did just want to say I'm leaving the thread now, so if anyone wants to follow up on any point, pls do so by pm. 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by hornblower

[luuknam]

The cat we did put down was because DH was not interested in an on going medical expense, which was the prozac.

 

Not saying you should put your cat on prozac, but last time I checked (years ago) human prozac was on the $4 list at Target and Walmart and the like, which would put it at $48/year. Does cat prozac cost more than human prozac?

 

Our landlord spent tens of thousands of dollars on cancer treatment for an elderly dog (which died soon thereafter anyway). I probably wouldn't even spend tens of thousands of dollars on myself as a 90-something year old for cancer treatment (pain relief, etc, yes, but no aggressive "extend life as much as possible" kind of treatment unless I was one of those rare people who are 90 going on 50).

 

When we were living in Texas I saw people selling puppies (so cute!) for $20 or so out of the bed of a truck in a Walmart parking lot more than once, so yeah, you can still get them for cheap. And I've seen people in the projects with a dog on a chain, so they obviously manage to keep a dog alive despite a less-than-ideal income level.

[ktgrok]

Hornblower, I think that you live in an area with mostly no kill shelters, and not a glut of animals that end up euthanized, explains a lot of the variance in our thoughts on this. Probably all of it, actually. 

 

To give you an idea, this past year was the very first time they reported adopting out more animals than they euthanized. The very first time. And that still meant euthanizing an average of 14 animals every single day of the year. When you are euthanizing that many adoptable animals, it's hard to say that someone has to be able to afford the kind of care they would LIKE to see. Is it better to live 6 years in a loving home, but then get heart worms and end up being put down, or better to be euthanized right away? I'd say better to have several years in a loving home, even without heart worm prevention. 

 

That said, I will say that being tied out in a yard alone for 24 hours a day, not treated for fleas or allergies or pain, IS worse than being euthanized. 

 

 

[Murphy101]

Never had that happen with my guinea pigs and nor with my sister's hamster. From one day to the next they were dead. They were old though.

 

Of course I can't imagine waiting a month of looking at the animal suffering. I'd at least bring it to the vet to be euthanized if that were the case.

Yeah. I have taken obviously sick pets to the vet for antibiotics, presuming I could afford it. But most small critters went too quickly for a vet. They were fine and then they weren't. I've taken Guinea pigs, parakeets, turtles, mini rabbits, gerbils to vets for antibiotics because they appeared sick. But even so, it doesn't always work. A single sneeze in a bunny Friday night before the family goes to bed could be a dead bunny Monday morning. That's not at all unusual. And I think the fees for vets to euthanize are way too expensive. I have no problem with humane methods of DIY old yeller style. It's heartbreaking either way.

 

Given how many humans live very productive and even happy lives without pain meds for their arthritis, I think it's unreasonable to act like people are cruel for not paying for it for their dog. I happen to pay for this right now, but I don't give it as often or in as high a dose as the vet rx bc $. My dog is a happy adored and much loved member of the family. For that matter, so is great grandpa. I'm not putting either of them down because their life isn't painless.

[Seasider]

Hang out with farmers more. We love our pets and our farm dogs. We;ll get them fixed and give them shots. But we look at animals a little differently.

 

They're a dog and we love them. But they're not "furbabies."

This is how my relatives feel about their "country dogs." They love these companions but they are not treated as an actual sibling in the family. They're...dogs.

[Seasider]

I agree. We take care of our animals but they are animals, not people.

 

The humane society here will not let us adopt a dog but the state of Michigan has allowed us to adopt 3 children and foster over 100 others. And doggy day care, even in our rural area costs more per day than my daily stipend for a foster child.

Wow. That's something to (ETA make) a person stop and think. Edited July 13, 2016 by Seasider

[Murphy101]

Wow. That's something to a person stop and think.

And mutter epithets over their morning coffee. But maybe that's just me. 😔

[ktgrok]

There are inexpensive pain medication options for pets. Aspirin isn't a GREAT solution for a dog, and can cause GI bleeding, but would be better in my opinion than nothing at all. Stuff like that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The shelters here are no kill.  And they will take adopted animals back no questions asked. 

[RootAnn]

I have a friend who loved his pet bird so much that he spent more than 3K on dialysis for the bird. I have other friends who are not rich who spend $$$ keeping elderly pets alive. I do think that is crazy. Both of the pets we now own are clearly on borrowed time, and as much as I love them, I would not replace them lightly.

 

This thread is hitting close to home as we have a 13 yr old cat who was just diagnosed with intestinal lymphasarcoma (the non-feline-leukemia type). We won't be spending the $$ on chemo, but we did pay $$ for surgery to remove the mass in her intestines that was causing her not to eat or drink AND we're feeding her through a feeding tube. She may have two weeks or four months left - no one knows. If there weren't four (out of five) kids in the house deeply in love with this cat, we wouldn't be at this spot. She's not in pain now & doesn't mind the feedings, but at some point we'll have to make a decision on the when of putting her down when another tumor makes a showing. She adopted us & considered two of my kids to be her very own kittens. 

 

Our vet costs were always so minimal compared to the kid's check-ups. Shots were super cheap (again, compared to kid shots). Prices have gone up three and four fold in the last 2-3 years in our rural area.

[SparklyUnicorn]

There is a woman on the street who was forced out of her home because of siblings who didn't care that she didn't have somewhere to go and wanted their share of the money after their parent died.  They gave her none of it claiming they had to spend her share on fixing up the house.  That's the short version.

 

Anyhow, she was pretty much homeless.  Someone on the street let her stay with them until she could work something out.  She had no job.  I saw her turn into skin and bones.  She goes around the neighborhood taking in trash cans, and doing odd landscaping type stuff for no money.  It's just something she does to keep busy.  People on the street gave her money here or there and sometimes food.  She'd take the money she was given to help out stray cats with medical care.  Sorry, I think that's just nuts.  Honestly, I avoided giving her money because of this.  I gave her food instead.  (She is also the same person who used our small shed to house a pack of stray cats and kittens in the dead of winter (without asking us and we found many of them dead). 

 

At least she is doing better these days.  She got a job that pays something and she no longer looks like skin and bones.  Of course I know she cares a lot and she is a good person, but her priorities are rather strange to me. 

[Murphy101]

There are inexpensive pain medication options for pets. Aspirin isn't a GREAT solution for a dog, and can cause GI bleeding, but would be better in my opinion than nothing at all. Stuff like that.

Yes and just like with people there's also non medicated ways to ease pain. Such as it being totally ridiculous that my poodle is wearing a sweater I knit him at the moment. In summer. Because he insists on sitting near/on me for warmth in our air conditioned house. I highly suspect cold temps aggravate his arthritis and my room is the coldest in the house. It cost me nothing to make him a bit warmer to ease his pain.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes and just like with people there's also non medicated ways to ease pain. Such as it being totally ridiculous that my poodle is wearing a sweater I knit him at the moment. In summer. Because he insists on sitting near/on me for warmth in our air conditioned house. I highly suspect cold temps aggravate his arthritis and my room is the coldest in the house. It cost me nothing to make him a bit warmer to ease his pain.

 

eh hem...picture....I want to see a picture of that...sounds very cute!

[Murphy101]

eh hem...picture....I want to see a picture of that...sounds very cute!

I have no idea how to post pictures on this board. I don't have any photo streaming accounts, so unless I can upload direct from my phone, it's unlikely to happen. Maybe I'll take a picture and put it on the blog. The long neglected nearly forgotten blog. lol

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have no idea how to post pictures on this board. I don't have any photo streaming accounts, so unless I can upload direct from my phone, it's unlikely to happen. Maybe I'll take a picture and put it on the blog. The long neglected nearly forgotten blog. lol

 

No clue how to do that with a phone.

 

You could plop it on somewhere like Photobucket (free).  But again, not sure how that works with a phone.  Once there you just cut and paste the link.