S/O Cultural Appropriation -- Elizabeth Warren/Native American Heritage

[Junie]

I didn't want to derail the cultural appropriation thread, but I have a question related to it.

 

What if you are part of a culture but it is not apparent that you are part of that culture?  Are you allowed to claim that culture, even if you didn't grow up in it or suffer because of it?

 

I know that Elizabeth Warren has taken some heat about this, but as far as anyone knows she is (genetically) Native American.  I'm guessing that if her family lived on a reservation this wouldn't be an issue.  I'm also guessing that this wouldn't be an issue if her skin were darker or if she had classic Native American facial features.  Or if she could document that her family had been removed from their land with the Trail of Tears.

 

This is of personal interest to me, as I was recently able to trace part of my lineage to the Muskogee Creek Indians.  I would like to learn more about the Creek culture, but I think that some would find it offensive if I tried to learn some of their traditional crafts or w/e.  I am wondering how do I embrace this new-found part of my heritage without being offensive?

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I would tend to go with being yourself, and learning about whatever you darn well want.  If people call you on it, you can tell them, if you want to, that it is a heritage activity for you and leave it at that.  THough honestly I don't think they have any right to call you out on it anyway, even if you just wanted to learn about it for other reasons. 

[Crimson Wife]

Actually, she's not. There is no proof that Sen. Warren has any legitimate claim to Native blood: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/is-elizabeth-warren-native-american-or-what/257415/

 

I am 1/8 Latina but as my Mexican great-grandma was of European descent (she apparently took great pride in being "Spanish" even though her family had lived in what is now southern AZ for centuries), I don't consider myself anything other than European-American. My great-grandma had light eyes and fair skin. She went by an Anglicized nickname of her Hispanic name and while my grandma grew up fluent in Spanish, out of my mom and her 3 siblings, only 1 speaks Spanish (and not fluently). My mom considers herself Scottish, even though she's 3/4 Scottish and 1/4 Latina.

[bibiche]

I'm not going to get into the EW business, but as for your interest in learning about your family culture, why not just contact the Muscogee Nation with your questions and concerns? http://www.muscogeenation-nsn.gov/

[Junie]

Actually, she's not. There is no proof that Sen. Warren has any legitimate claim to Native blood: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/is-elizabeth-warren-native-american-or-what/257415/

 

I am 1/8 Latina but as my Mexican great-grandma was of European descent (she apparently took great pride in being "Spanish" even though her family had lived in what is now southern AZ for centuries), I don't consider myself anything other than European-American. My great-grandma had light eyes and fair skin. She went by an Anglicized nickname of her Hispanic name and while my grandma grew up fluent in Spanish, out of my mom and her 3 siblings, only 1 speaks Spanish (and not fluently). My mom considers herself Scottish, even though she's 3/4 Scottish and 1/4 Latina.

 

Yeah, I understand that Elizabeth Warren has no proof that she's Native American.  What I meant is that no one has any proof that she's not.

 

Yet, she has been given grief about this and I'm not exactly sure what her "sin" is.  Why is her claim of being Native American so offensive to people?  This is what I'm trying to avoid.

[Junie]

I'm not going to get into the EW business, but as for your interest in learning about your family culture, why not just contact the Muscogee Nation with your questions and concerns? http://www.muscogeenation-nsn.gov/

 

I think that the Muscogee Nation is part of my concern.  I am not on their role and neither is anyone in my family, as my Muscogee ancestors are pretty far back.  I don't want the Creek who are full/half/quarter to be offended by me and my one drop.  I would like to be proud of my Creek heritage without being accused of appropriating their culture.

[Valley Girl]

I would tend to go with being yourself, and learning about whatever you darn well want.  If people call you on it, you can tell them, if you want to, that it is a heritage activity for you and leave it at that.  THough honestly I don't think they have any right to call you out on it anyway, even if you just wanted to learn about it for other reasons. 

 

Yes. It's a sad day when people feel they need some kind of "permission" to avoid being criticized or accused of something when they want to learn about other cultures--especially if that culture has some tangible link to their own heritage.

[frugalmamatx]

The thing with Native american ancestry is that is can be tricky to prove without a DNA test. Many of the "civilized" tribes who were lighter skinned did the same as light skinned African Americans and "passed" as white. This was better for them at the time - they might have been able to stay in places Natives were being removed from, own land outside of the Rez, not have their kids ripped away and sent to boarding schools, etc. But it makes it nearly impossible to prove they were native, because since they were "passing" they normally aren't recorded on any of the native census or rolls. I went through this myself with an ancestor - he looks native in every pic, was born in a town in Kentucky that was 90% Cherokee, and the family story is that his mother was a full blood Cherokee. After they came too Oklahoma the local Cheyenne even recorded them as being Cherokee and for them to be considered a member of the tribe. But the family passed as white and aren't on any of the rolls, so there is no way to actually prove it and join a tribe. Do I consider myself Native American, even though after doing much family history I realize I can't prove it? Yes without a doubt. It is the ethnic heritage I was raised in, the identity I feel most comfortable in. Do i put Native American on paperwork? - probably about half the time {some things only consider someone who is a papered Native to be native}. 

 

Elizabeth Warren is in a similar position. She possible could have DNA testing done to see, but that is up to her. She isn't using it to her advantage IMO. 

 

 

For the OP - it wouldn't be offensive at all for you to learn traditional crafts or language of your tribe. A lot of tribes will even teach those with NO connection to the tribe if they want to learn - it is viewed as a way of keeping the skills alive. 

[Guest]

Well, your dentist would most likely be able to tell without a DNA test! There are several physical cues to some racial differentiations. That's how physical anthropologist can garner clues of race. NA descendants (and it remains pretty far down the line) typically have scooped teeth in the back as well as a unique tooth coloring. My dentist could instantly tell my dd and I both have a significant amount of NA in us, although I never mark it on those race forms (which I find stupid and annoying- who is 100% anything these days? Certainly not 100% of people. ). My grandmother's side is Apache. Her father had his land taken away by the US Government. My grand mother received a settlement from them when she was in her late 80's. We aren't like 1/32 or something. But what's funny, is I didn't find out until I was older because to my grandmother is was something to be ashamed of. Times have changed.

 

I will just tell you from my view- if I were you I would research whatever the hell I want. I can't understand this whole "you don't have a right to talk about it because you didn't grow up on a reservation." To me it's racist and I'm not giving someone a pass to act that way just because they're NA anymore than I would a Klans Man. When people start talking pure race it turns to a dangerous side in my opinion. Plus it's not like pure NA didn't take spouses outside of their tribes either. Seriously.

 

Anyway- the only thing I personally don't do, is I don't claim it on forms. I didn't use it for scholarships and I won't let dd do it either. I didn't claim it for jobs. The kids on the reservations need all the help they can get and I'm not taking that away from them. I always check the white box, even though I'm largely of NA and Spanish descent. But I look white. I usually don't talk about it. Plus I don't think it's most people's business. I just revealed more to y'all than most of my friends know. But anyway, all of that is MY choice. I am not telling anyone else to use it that way. I personally though don't want to take away a boost from someone who would need it more. And maybe that's part of the hostility towards EW- people feel she used it to her advantage, and my understanding is that is was a factor on her faculty role. But that's between her and the school. I don't have a dog in that fight. I hear people talking about doing a genealogy search to try and find NA to get a scholarship. It usually just makes me laugh because good luck doing that with 1/128 percent. I don't feel they're a threat, but maybe some people do.

 

Anyway- I think you have a right to research anything you want and to feel proud of your heritage. Anyone trying to take that away from you is the one with the problem.

[TravelingChris]

SHe was using it to her advantage at an earlier time.

[indigomama]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

I have 1 full Mexican Great Grandparent, 1 either Native American or NA and Mexican Great Grandparent, and 6 Western European grandparents.  Some of my cousins, and several of my Uncles are very dark and have very distinct NA features. My brother and I do not. And it has always bothered me that people have issues with my claiming anything other than white. 

[Guest]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

I have 1 full Mexican Great Grandparent, 1 either Native American or NA and Mexican Great Grandparent, and 6 Western European grandparents. Some of my cousins, and several of my Uncles are very dark and have very distinct NA features. My brother and I do not. And it has always bothered me that people have issues with my claiming anything other than white.

Those people need to mind their own beeswax. I'm sorry. I don't get the need to argue over such things with people. I mean seriously? Why would someone challenge someone over their known genealogy? This thread makes me feel like a good genetics course would greatly behoove the general public.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

According the Atlantic article posted above:

"Many prominent figures in American life learn, once the eye of the national press alights on them, that they are not the people who they always thought -- or said -- they were." This includes Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Florida Senator Marco Rubio, and New Mexico Gov. Susanna Martinez.

 

The same article points out that:

"The best argument she's got in her defense is that, based on the public evidence so far, she doesn't appear to have used her claim of Native American ancestry to gain access to anything much more significant than a cookbook; in 1984 she contributed five recipes to the Pow Wow Chow cookbook published by the Five Civilized Tribes Museum in Muskogee, signing the items, "Elizabeth Warren -- Cherokee."

 

The same article is very clear about her not taking advantage of this and also clearly shows that her family lore included stories of native american ancestry. I know my family lore does as well as well as plenty of others in America. This does not make EW a liar or a deceptive person at all in my book. Instead I see her as being the victim of opponents looking for any mud to throw:(

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm Cherokee. Our ancestor is on the Dawes Rolls. I'm also of Irish and German descent, on my mother's side. My children learn all of their heritage, because it's ours no matter what we look like and no matter what anyone thinks. We have the legal documents. We have the family stories. We are ourselves and have a right to be ourselves. It's not really up for debate or judgment. I don't go around telling everybody that I'm Native American, Irish, and German. There's no badge to wear for any of those, at the current time. But I know the truth and don't shy away from it.

 

That business where someone says, "This is what I think of your history, your family, your people, yourself, so here's how I'm going to treat you because it's my place to take charge of you, also I will dictate how you may speak of yourself and what you may tell your own children..." no. Anyone who has studied history can see where that leads.

 

[....]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

I have 1 full Mexican Great Grandparent, 1 either Native American or NA and Mexican Great Grandparent, and 6 Western European grandparents.  Some of my cousins, and several of my Uncles are very dark and have very distinct NA features. My brother and I do not. And it has always bothered me that people have issues with my claiming anything other than white. 

 

You're not alone.  We're a very mixed race family and I've noticed my teenagers are starting to become belligerent when they have to mark "what race they are" on forms/documents.  Especially if it's a "Mark Just One".  I have blond hair/blue eyes and I have 5 kids.  The first 2 kids (my teens) look completely Asian.  My 3rd looks almost Middle Eastern (she has her own look).  #4 looks completely Caucasian.  She actually has blond hair.  #5 also has blond hair with red highlights.

 

And my great grandpa is Native American, too.  People act like we're supposed to fit into some kind of mold based on our appearance.  I'm supposed to pretend my great grandpa and his family didn't exist?  It's really stomping on the feelings of people who come from mixed backgrounds - especially since those are family members with feelings attached to them.  So is Kid #4 less Korean than Kid #1 just because she looks Caucasian and #1 looks Asian?  No...these are some of the conversations my kids have been having with me.  I don't care about my feelings or what people think of me, but I do worry it bothers my kids.

 

And I have no clue about Elizabeth Warren.  She's on her own (I got my own problems-lol).  

 

And no, my kids have not figured out what to mark on those forms.

[....]

This thread makes me feel like a good genetics course would greatly behoove the general public.

 

:iagree:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

As far as whether others of the same lineage will be offended if you learn more about your shared heritage -- I agree with bibiche upthread that you could ask them, if you really want to know. Because I can predict what the answer will be. :)

 

I met a Lenape (Delaware) man last week, whose job it is to share Lenape culture and history in a museum setting. He asked my boys what their heritage was, and when they answered, he honed in on the Cherokee part and began speaking to them in Tsalagi! He also asked various questions about Cherokee history (to which they did not know the answers, other than concerning the removal).

He told me that I was not doing as I should. The children knew who they were but they didn't know enough of their people's life and history. "Who do you think will tell them, if not you? The school? The government?" he asked. "Who will tell THEIR children? Learn it. Know it. Be it. That's your responsibility."

He said this to a woman with reddish, curly-ish hair, green eyes, and fair skin. To anyone looking on, he said it to a white woman, and to her white sons (only one of whom is dark-complected like his Grandpa). Because he wasn't talking to 'a white woman.' He was talking to a Cherokee.

[frugalmamatx]

You're not alone.  We're a very mixed race family and I've noticed my teenagers are starting to become belligerent when they have to mark "what race they are" on forms/documents.  Especially if it's a "Mark Just One".  I have blond hair/blue eyes and I have 5 kids.  The first 2 kids (my teens) look completely Asian.  My 3rd looks almost Middle Eastern (she has her own look).  #4 looks completely Caucasian.  She actually has blond hair.  #5 also has blond hair with red highlights.

 

 

My family is like this too. We have everything under the sun in looks - I am pale white with rose undertones, hazel eyes and sandy brown with bronze highlights {dad used to call it half-breed} hair. My niece and nephew are strawberry blonde and carrot-top red respectively with blue eyes. My aunt is jet black hair with a medium complexion. My daughter has been mistaken for everything under the sun - Iranian, Hispanic, Puerto Rican, bi-racial african american / white - the list goes on and on. She is medium skinned with dark brown/black hair and beautiful chocolate brown eyes. When we go out and take her friends along, most folks assume her friends are my kids and she is the neighbor tagging along!

 

 

If in your kids place, I'd mark either multi-racial or check multiple boxes. 

[indigomama]

You're not alone.  We're a very mixed race family and I've noticed my teenagers are starting to become belligerent when they have to mark "what race they are" on forms/documents.  Especially if it's a "Mark Just One".  I have blond hair/blue eyes and I have 5 kids.  The first 2 kids (my teens) look completely Asian.  My 3rd looks almost Middle Eastern (she has her own look).  #4 looks completely Caucasian.  She actually has blond hair.  #5 also has blond hair with red highlights.

 

And my great grandpa is Native American, too.  People act like we're supposed to fit into some kind of mold based on our appearance.  I'm supposed to pretend my great grandpa and his family didn't exist?  It's really stomping on the feelings of people who come from mixed backgrounds - especially since those are family members with feelings attached to them.  So is Kid #4 less Korean than Kid #1 just because she looks Caucasian and #1 looks Asian?  No...these are some of the conversations my kids have been having with me.  I don't care about my feelings or what people think of me, but I do worry it bothers my kids.

 

And I have no clue about Elizabeth Warren.  She's on her own (I got my own problems-lol).  

 

And no, my kids have not figured out what to mark on those forms.

 

I hate the forms asking about race. Why is it that to mark White it always says "White-not Hispanic"? As a kid, I felt to check that would perhaps describe my outward appearance, but it would feel like I was denying my Grandparents. 

 

I also have a name that is very often associated as African American, for which I've had many, many comments all my life. 

 

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain myself to people. I am who I am, the name and genetics, I had no control over, but I embrace it all, and those who have issues with it, oh well.

Edited June 30, 2016 by indigomama

[....]

If in your kids place, I'd mark either multi-racial or check multiple boxes. 

 

Man, I really wish those forms would have a multi-racial box to check!  We keep encountering the "Mark One Box Only" forms.   :glare:  Soooo frustrating for my kids.  There's also the "Mark whatever race they identify with".  Oh my goodness.  That comment can send me over the edge in a heartbeat.  Like we are supposed to pick teams or something.  Hurry, Kids, pick a team!   :tongue_smilie:

[bettyandbob]

My family has some Native American ancestors. My grandmother was racist and did everything she could to keep anyone from finding out. So our is oral. We have no documentation. I suspect a lot of people my age (50) had grandparents with similar attitudes.

 

I know I have no connection culturally. But is it ok for me to acknowledge this history at all.

 

Is it ok for me, but not public figures who also cannot "prove" it.

[Farrar]

Someone above mentioned the genetic testing and I'm curious if anyone knows more about that... Dh's great-great-grandmother was, according to family lore, Choctaw. His grandmother had a photo of her and remembered her (she was her grandmother after all). She was, visually speaking, almost certainly NA. They were from Oklahoma. It seems clear that while the exact tribe or what percentage ancestry she had might be wrong, there's no way that family line didn't have NA ancestry. Thus our surprise when he did the 23andme thing for fun and it came back with zero NA ancestry. It's not a super important thing to him or anything. However, we did sort of go, huh?

 

My guess is that the genetic element is more "off" when dealing with groups that they have fewer samples for, like NA groups. Of course, there's also the chance that somewhere along the line, someone lied about some parentage... but since it's entirely matrilineal from there, I don't understand how. It was definitely a mystery.

 

Dh feels like to claim NA ancestry for him, who grew up middle class and white, wouldn't make him comfortable. But I assume lots of people have the sort of NA in the family stories and scant proof like that. If it's part of who you grow up hearing you are, then it becomes part of your identity. But then, also, there's a way in which a *lot* of white people want to feel that connection with NA's because they see them as more "spiritual" or they think their ancestry is a "Cherokee princess" and it makes them royal or special somehow. And that stuff is obviously appropriation.

[Guest]

My family has some Native American ancestors. My grandmother was racist and did everything she could to keep anyone from finding out. So our is oral. We have no documentation. I suspect a lot of people my age (50) had grandparents with similar attitudes.

 

I know I have no connection culturally. But is it ok for me to acknowledge this history at all.

 

Is it ok for me, but not public figures who also cannot "prove" it.

I don't know if this is the case for your grandmother, but for my grandmother growing up in the 20's it wasn't racism on her part to deny it. It was complete and total fear. It was not "cool" or trendy to identify with minority heritages then. Her father actually changed their last name on the censuses to hide their race. My husband's paternal family who is 100% Italian did the same thing when they immigrated to the US. It wasn't a mistake. It was that they were trying to fit in as "Americans" due to the perceived racism of others. My grandmother watched her family lands get taken away by the FEDERAL government. We're not talking about some historic thing during the Indian resettlement. We're talking late 30's or early 1940's America. The government took her father's land by imminent domain to develop Los Alamos. They paid him pennies on the dollar compared to what they paid the white landowners. As far as she was concerned, that was recent history. The only good thing to come out of it was the US Goverment handed us a severs copies of a nicely done genealogy they performed to determine who was entitled to the settlements. The settlements were still a joke though. So in my view, hiding your ancestory wasn't being racist as much as being prudent when neither the federal government nor the general white population treated you in an equal manner. It's hard to overcome the perceptions of fear, even when the times have changed. Some wounds just don't heal.

[Lawyer&Mom]

DNA tests are not conclusive for several reasons. First, companies like Ancestry only map certain segments of your DNA. They don't map your entire genome. They could miss something. Second, you don't carry DNA from all of your ancestors. In theory you get half from your parents, and a quarter from your grandparents and 12.5% from your great grandparents and 6.25% from your great great grandparents... But the reality is that the genes get mixed up at each stage and you can end up with less than the theoretical amount from a particular ancestor, and certain ancestors can start falling out of your DNA completely. And it doesn't take that many generations.

 

http://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics

 

Finally, the testing companies don't have robust data for all groups. For lots of reasons. I think it will improve as more people participate, but not everyone is going to want to participate.

 

DNA is amazing, but it doesn't have all the answers.

[justasque]

I didn't want to derail the cultural appropriation thread, but I have a question related to it.

 

What if you are part of a culture but it is not apparent that you are part of that culture?  Are you allowed to claim that culture, even if you didn't grow up in it or suffer because of it?

 

I know that Elizabeth Warren has taken some heat about this, but as far as anyone knows she is (genetically) Native American.  I'm guessing that if her family lived on a reservation this wouldn't be an issue.  I'm also guessing that this wouldn't be an issue if her skin were darker or if she had classic Native American facial features.  Or if she could document that her family had been removed from their land with the Trail of Tears.

 

This is of personal interest to me, as I was recently able to trace part of my lineage to the Muskogee Creek Indians.  I would like to learn more about the Creek culture, but I think that some would find it offensive if I tried to learn some of their traditional crafts or w/e.  I am wondering how do I embrace this new-found part of my heritage without being offensive?

 

I think the key is to be open and honest about what you know and what you don't know, how you were raised and how you weren't raised, what you are an expert on and what you are not an expert on.  

 

It would certainly be fine to learn more about Creek culture - you can do that whether you are Creek or not.  It would be ok to accurately describe what you know of your ancestry, while also acknowledging your "one drop" and lack of growing up in the Creek culture.  

 

As I mentioned in the other thread, I've spent several years learning an art form from a culture not my own.  Over the years I've made friends and am now "one of the gang" at our gatherings - often more so than newcomers or even folks who come but aren't regulars.  But it's still not my culture; I am still, after several years, listening and learning.  I will tell people "I am learning this art form" but I try to be careful not to act like I'm an expert, even when I know more about the art form than someone else, *especially* if that person is much more a part of the art form's culture than I am.  (This is getting more of an issue for me to work out as recently I've gotten better at the art form.  I try to refer learners to folks from the culture, and acknowledge the help I got from others in my own learning.  My working through this all is very much a work in progress.)  I also do some learning about the culture as a whole outside of my art-form friends - I don't expect them to do all the educating I need.  It's been a long journey to acceptance, and I will never be fully a member of this culture, but I have made some good friends and I love practicing the art form.   And I should say that everyone has been very welcoming, because they can see that I am serious about learning the art form.

 

If you're asking the questions, and doing some self-examination on a regular basis, if you are honest about who you are and why you are curious about the culture, and if you are patient about being accepted into any IRL group associated with the culture, and do your share to give back and support the culture, you'll be fine.  

 

"Be who you are, and be that well" -- St. Frances de Sales

Edited June 30, 2016 by justasque

[Crimson Wife]

 

Yet, she has been given grief about this and I'm not exactly sure what her "sin" is.  Why is her claim of being Native American so offensive to people?  This is what I'm trying to avoid.

 

If she were just saying it and not benefiting from it in any way, that would be one thing. But there is a question about whether she benefited professionally from affirmative action on the dubious claim to being Native American.

 

AA was intended to give a helping hand to the disadvantaged, not European-American people with fractional ancestry (like myself). If I checked the "Latina" box on my grad school apps, that would be wrong because I have never suffered any kind of discrimination based on people thinking I'm Hispanic. I have an Irish name (maiden and married), fair skin, dishwasher blonde hair, blue eyes, and am a monolingual English speaker without any kind of "Spanglish" accent. The only way that people would know that I'm anything other than Scots-Irish is if I were to mention it.

 

[bibiche]

If she were just saying it and not benefiting from it in any way, that would be one thing. But there is a question about whether she benefited professionally from affirmative action on the dubious claim to being Native American.

 

AA was intended to give a helping hand to the disadvantaged, not European-American people with fractional ancestry (like myself). If I checked the "Latina" box on my grad school apps, that would be wrong because I have never suffered any kind of discrimination based on people thinking I'm Hispanic. I have an Irish name (maiden and married), fair skin, dishwasher blonde hair, blue eyes, and am a monolingual English speaker without any kind of "Spanglish" accent. The only way that people would know that I'm anything other than Scots-Irish is if I were to mention it.

 

The very article that you linked earlier says there is no evidence that Elizabeth Warren ever benefited professionally from her NA ancestry.

[Crimson Wife]

The very article that you linked earlier says there is no evidence that Elizabeth Warren ever benefited professionally from her NA ancestry.

 

And there are other sources who claim that she has. CNN says that she listed herself in a directory for minority law professors. Did that help further her career? I don't know but I think that is pretty nervy even if she could prove the 1/32 ancestry she claims.

[bibiche]

No, I don't see how that furthered her career. Neither does the institution that employed her at that time. Nor does she. It seems to just be a Republican talking point. And a source of some really offensive behavior as evidenced by "Pocahontas" remarks and accompanying NA "war cries."

[Liza Q]

Crimson Wife - that is exactly my concern. She may be of NA heritage but does that mean she grew up with some sort of economic/cultural/educational/anything disadvantage? Is it realistic that Harvard put her on a list of diverse employees?

 

I am 100% Puerto Rican and my husband is 100% German. But we were both born here and only speak English. We both grew up a bit "poor" - food stamps and unemployed parents from time to time. In addition, I have faced some discrimination that he has not.

 

But. We have been solidly middle-class for our adult lives. For our children to try to take advantage of their heritage and use it to get financial benefits or preferential admission or hiring seems wrong to me. I have poor, disadvantaged family/friends/acquaintances who are in need of that type of help and I think it would be abusing the spirit of the law/program to take more for ourselves, which would leave less for them

 

But. My children have encountered some ignorant, offensive attitudes from those who don't see how blond, white-looking kids can have a real ethnic background. They see that many judge others by their appearance instead of reality. We can't know what is real and who people are without getting to know them. I am glad that my kids see that.

 

Another but - haha. My sister's husband is black and she absolutely uses their bi-racial status to get their children into great private schools with great scholarships becasue those schools have a (official or unofficial?) quota. They figure that they are honest on the applications, not pretending to be poorer than they are, and if the schools want to give them lots of money to diversify their student bodies and my nieces get great educations out of it - why not?

 

Bottom line to me - my family, and my brother-in-laws family, have legitimately experienced racism and had disadvantages that many "white" Americans have not. Is EW one who has actually been at some kind of disadvantage? Should she be benefiting from any type of program? I am not saying that I agree that there should be programs like this, but the reality is that there are and I can't get behind her getting ahead unfairly.

 

AND. If she did not get ahead unfairly...what is the purpose of a listing of minority professors? To make Harvard feel good about itself? I am not slamming her personally, since I don't know the truth.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Liza Q

[MinivanMom]

I have an aunt who became very interested in tracing our NA heritage. She spent years documenting everything before applying for and obtaining tribal membership. My understanding is that a dna test or even a family genealogy is insufficient. If your family has not been on the tribal rolls, then it is a painstaking process to document each generation with birth, marriage, and death certificates to prove the ancestry. I know my aunt spent years visiting rural courthouses, traipsing through old cemeteries, and visiting distant cousins in order to obtain all the needed documentation. Along the way, she gathered family stories and even tracked down photographs of NA ancestors that had been passed down to cousins rather than to our family. For my aunt, gaining tribal status was about learning about and connecting with her heritage, and that's perfectly acceptable.

 

I think it's the perception of using a fractional amount of NA ancestry to get gain that sets people off. And rightly so. If you lurk around College Confidential enough, you'll see posts along the lines of, "My grandma just told me we're part Cherokee; can I check the NA box on my college application?" or "My uncle's dna test just came back saying he is 5% Native American; can I apply for NA scholarships?" That's the kind of stuff that makes people twitchy. If you're trying to use a fraction of NA ancestry to gain racial preference in college admissions or to apply for scholarships that are clearly intended for kids who have been raised NA, that's not okay. If you're a public figure, then claiming to be NA without tribal membership is not okay, because it gives the appearance of a culturally white person trying to use a fraction of NA blood for political gain.

 

I have no opinion about the Warren situation, but I don't think backlash against politicians claiming NA ancestry should discourage anyone from learning more about their own real ancestry. I think it's a wonderful thing to learn more about your family history and cultural heritage. Just please, please don't let your kids check the NA box on college apps if they don't actually hold tribal membership.

[bibiche]

... Is EW one who has actually been at some kind of disadvantage? Should she be benefiting from any type of program? I am not saying that I agree that there should be programs like this, but the reality is that there are and I can't get behind her getting ahead unfairly.

Again, there is no evidence that Elizabeth Warren ever benefited professionally from claiming NA heritage.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I haven't read all the replies so please forgive me if I'm repeating a point that's already been made, but here is my take. I'm 1/8 Native by blood and I'm not on the Choctaw or the Cherokee rolls. Why is this? It's because my heritage what stolen from me. It's because my grandmother who was blonde and passing did not want to live under the stigma. She was so afraid of being found out that she forfeited millions of dollars from Arco when they were seeking the rightful owner of the land they were taking for oil rights. My grandfather never got to meet his father (Choctaw) because his parents were physically torn apart and his white mother was forced to marry a white man even though she was pregnant with my grandfather.

 

I grew up with zero NA heritage because of racism, ethnic cleansing, and white washing. I may not have memories of Cherokee cradle songs or have items that were successfully handed down, but the heritage I do have is the one of loss that my people suffered.

 

I'm from one of those families that has no cultural or ethnic heritage despite my appearance. I'm also half Chinese. My father who was Chinese-Indonesian came to the US during the first ethnic cleansing campaigns in the 1960s. He left everything behind and became "American" even disassociating from his relatives for fear of being deported and murdered. He never spoke anything but English in the home. My parents divorced when I was a baby and he did not have visitation with me; only with my 2 older siblings. I never knew him. Even up to his death he never shared with my siblings anything related to China or Indonesia or any part of our ethnic heritage. I have one old Indonesian doll given to me by my grandparents when my mother reached out to them after the divorce. It sits among my children's toys.

 

In my family, like many others, there are no recipes that have been handed down. No jewelry. No pottery. We are just here. Ahistorical.

 

If I want to learn about my background and teach my children about their heritage and reclaim our stolen and abandoned identity, I have every right to do so.

 

So do you.

[Liza Q]

Again, there is no evidence that Elizabeth Warren ever benefited professionally from claiming NA heritage.

 

So I wonder. What is the purpose of claiming my heritage on an application? Why does it matter? Why would I need to announce my heritage to a job or school? Who is benefiting from it? Because it is weird to me. Doing a little research, I read this today and I must say I would feel exactly this way if someone who has a "voice" - Harvard, the Senate - and believed  that they were of Puerto Rican heritage did not make any moves to involve themselves in our particular issues here in the US as well as back home (I know it is not accurate because I have never lived there but PR is still home in some sort of way).  I don't think I am breaking a rule linking to it? http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/warren-should-apologize-native-americans-moya-smith/ 

 

And I am not a Republican - this is not a talking point to me. Nor do I support...well, let's just say I support no one...no, I UN-support everyone who is or has been running for President. So this is not partisan.

[Guest]

So I wonder. What is the purpose of claiming my heritage on an application? Why does it matter? Why would I need to announce my heritage to a job or school? Who is benefiting from it? Because it is weird to me. Doing a little research, I read this today and I must say I would feel exactly this way if someone who has a "voice" - Harvard, the Senate - and believed that they were of Puerto Rican heritage did not make any moves to involve themselves in our particular issues here in the US as well as back home (I know it is not accurate because I have never lived there but PR is still home in some sort of way). I don't think I am breaking a rule linking to it? http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/warren-should-apologize-native-americans-moya-smith/

 

And I am not a Republican - this is not a talking point to me. Nor do I support...well, let's just say I support no one...no, I UN-support everyone who is or has been running for President. So this is not partisan.

My understanding, and I may be completely off, is that as far as job applications go, the EEOC gets that information to make sure the company isn't discriminating amongst applicants. Now what that means for areas with little to know diversity to apply for those jobs, I'm not sure. But I know when I was hiring people we had to have them fill a form and then HR did something with it- what I'm not sure, but we definitely had to have that form completed. As for medical practices, etc. I am assuming they ask because some diseases are racially linked and that gives them a heads up for certain disease possibilities. Anyone else I would think it was Affirmative Actiom related, but again that's just my assumption. But a lot more people seem to ask than should really have any business knowing.

[Miss Peregrine]

I didn't want to derail the cultural appropriation thread, but I have a question related to it.

 

What if you are part of a culture but it is not apparent that you are part of that culture? Are you allowed to claim that culture, even if you didn't grow up in it or suffer because of it?

 

I know that Elizabeth Warren has taken some heat about this, but as far as anyone knows she is (genetically) Native American. I'm guessing that if her family lived on a reservation this wouldn't be an issue. I'm also guessing that this wouldn't be an issue if her skin were darker or if she had classic Native American facial features. Or if she could document that her family had been removed from their land with the Trail of Tears.

 

This is of personal interest to me, as I was recently able to trace part of my lineage to the Muskogee Creek Indians. I would like to learn more about the Creek culture, but I think that some would find it offensive if I tried to learn some of their traditional crafts or w/e. I am wondering how do I embrace this new-found part of my heritage without being offensive?

Exactly. And this bothers me. There is no way to tell what someone's heritage is by looking at them. Looking at a person and judging them for what they are wearing, or singing, etc because you(general) think they shouldn't be sounds an awful lot like judging someone for their skin color.

[Ravin]

Recognizing one's ancestry and exploring the cultural connections that come with it and benefiting from political status as a member of a Native American tribe (or any other nationality) are two very different things. 

 

When it comes down to it, there are people who grow up on an Indian reservation, and have 100% Native American ancestry, who are not eligible for membership in a tribe because of the blood quantum rules many tribes have which require a percentage of ancestry in that tribe, or only recognize paternal ancestry for membership, etc.

 

Tribes are political entities (domestic dependent nations) with governments and membership is really a kind of citizenship, and nationality, and isn't about race except to the extent that pressure from the U.S. means that to continue to exist they have pretty much all disallowed naturalization.

 

Claiming the political status would be far more problematic than claiming some ancestry, which as mentioned in the article is a common American family myth even when completely assimilated for many generations.

 

My own family has stories of some native ancestry and deep history of land ownership in California, to which I give little credence because I have yet to see any documentary or DNA evidence, just oral family history. It's certainly not enough that I would go around saying I'm NA and a member of this or that tribe (if a tribe name was included in family history, which it isn't), any more than I would claim to be a citizen of Spain or Portugal, nations from whom I draw a quarter of my ancestry each and for whom my ancestry is readily documentable. 

[happi duck]

I'm a "mutt" but I more closely identify with my mom's heritage. It's what was talked about most. My kids are even less that heritage but it also is what they most identify with. If this continues you'll have people who barely have that blood but it will be a strong family connection. I relate to my heritage but don't claim to be *from* that country, kwim?

 

From what I've read it is similar with EW. Her family has always valued their NA heritage. Her listing it in a directory was about connecting with others *not* trying to benefit.

 

IMO, it should be a good thing for a family to value a heritage...especially one that people were once forced to deny out of fear.

 

I agree that people raised in white America are not entitled to scholarships because they found a "drop".

[Crimson Wife]

No, I don't see how that furthered her career. Neither does the institution that employed her at that time. Nor does she. It seems to just be a Republican talking point. And a source of some really offensive behavior as evidenced by "Pocahontas" remarks and accompanying NA "war cries."

 

So pointing to offensive behavior on the part of one notoriously offensive reality-TV-star-turned-wannabe-politician means it is ok for a white woman to claim to be a minority?

[Guest]

So pointing to offensive behavior on the part of one notoriously offensive reality-TV-star-turned-wannabe-politician means it is ok for a white woman to claim to be a minority?

I think it was a rather big to do during one of her senate races- Trump is hardly the first to bring it up. I'm not sure if it was R or maybe her D competitors that brought it up the first time. Maybe someone from her district can speak to this? I know it's not a new controversy though.

 

ETA: here's a link from during her senate run against Scott Brown (who I think is Republican??) when the story originally surfaced. I know nothing about this paper- Northern politics aren't usually things I stay abreast of. ;)

 

Oops. I missed the link: http://bangordailynews.com/2012/05/31/politics/an-epic-fumble-threatens-mass-senate-races-dynamic/

Edited June 30, 2016 by texasmom33

[umsami]

Honestly, I think people get too police-y on this regard, because you really can't always tell. 

 

I have friends who are married to people of different Ethnic backgrounds, and I'm sure some people think cultural appropriation when they see them wear say a shalwar kameez, when they're obviously not from south east Asia.  Other friends in inter-racial marriages face issues as well.

 

Re: Native Americans, my Dad's family is Lanape....and one of my cousins has become a respected outsider in their affairs.  They call her "Fire Hair" lol...because she has red hair.  The actual DNA link is there, but people would not think it to look at her.  She has never claimed her Native American status for say attending Dartmouth or whatever. 

 

I'm also reminded of Gigi Hadid posting a picture of herself with henna designs and reminding people that her Dad was Palestinian. 

[Crimson Wife]

I think it was a rather big to do during one of her senate races- Trump is hardly the first to bring it up. I'm not sure if it was R or maybe her D competitors that brought it up the first time. Maybe someone from her district can speak to this? I know it's not a new controversy though.

 

My parents live in MA, and it was Scott Brown in the Senate race that Warren won a few years ago. My parents are liberals, but they have a problem with Warren claiming to be NA with at most 1/32 ancestry and not even being able to prove that. My mom's heritage is way more recent and can be documented but she doesn't believe that she ought to "count" as a minority since she has never suffered any kind of discrimination because of it.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think there are two issues in this question....

 

1. What do you do when you don't look as you "should" based on your ancestry.  I have a number of people in my family and in my friend circle who are 1/2 or 1/4 or some part of something and don't look the part.  In our family photos, we don't all "look related".  Recently, a friend of mine has been criticized for embracing her Hawaiian heritage. Her dad was born and bred on the island, but she's a pale redhead. The rest of our friend circle is mystified by her need to "be native". Bleh. Identify who you identify with, and honor all parts of yourself. For so long, people had to hide parts of themselves and their histories in order to blend in. Hopefully those times are over.

 

2. As far as learning more goes, I'd contact the tribal offices directly. I've never known someone who is honest and sincere to be shamed for wanting to learn more about how their distant family lived and to honor them and their past.  

[happi duck]

Does EW say she's a minority or does she say she has NA ancestors?

 

I think there's a difference.

[Guest]

Does EW say she's a minority or does she say she has NA ancestors?

 

I think there's a difference.

 

I think her story changed and that's where the controversy came in. But it happened back in her senate race so to get the full story you really need to go back and read the articles from then. It's been mishmashed around since and has been so politicized it's hard to get the full story- from what i found. The articles from 2012 give a more clear cut view of what she actually said than the stuff from 2016 where's it's more people interpreting what she meant to say etc. At least in my opinion. 

 

ETA: My understanding is that she at first denied providing her heritage info to Harvard and another school. She made it sound like they somehow mysteriously came upon the information. But then she switched that to say that, oh yes, she did provide that information. And then there was some stuff about it being used to help Harvard show how diverse they were.....and then it developed this whole life of it's own. I mean, to me it's classic political misspeak and they all do it all the time, I'm not sure what she did to get held to the fire more than other people, but that's just me. But again, I don't really care, so it's easy for me to shrug it off. I'm not in her district and thus far she isn't running for anything that will impact my life in any way. Some people obviously feel passionate about it though and I wouldnt want to minimize their issues on one side or the other. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by texasmom33

[Georgiana Daniels]

There must be some benefit to someone, somewhere, or there wouldn't be a box to check.

[Farrar]

There must be some benefit to someone, somewhere, or there wouldn't be a box to check.

 

As I understand it, the benefit was to Harvard (ability to claim a more diverse faculty) and not to her (it didn't help her get the job or any extra monies or grants or anything).

 

From everything I've read about it, it seems like it was one of those things - she took a family story about her ancestry, and when asked about her background, she claimed NA ancestry. But then - as others are saying - it took on a life of its own down the road. I have a feeling that if she was able to be candid, she'd call it a mistake in a more current context - just because our societal thinking about all this has come a good way in the last couple of decades. On the other hand, I don't think she ever lied. And it's been analyzed to death and no one can find that she ever benefited from the claim. Quite the opposite - it's just come back to bite her.

[Bluegoat]

So pointing to offensive behavior on the part of one notoriously offensive reality-TV-star-turned-wannabe-politician means it is ok for a white woman to claim to be a minority?

 

I don't really even know what use it is, other than to obscure reality, to talk about anyone being "white" in that sort of context.  Being white is a made up thing, really.  Ethnicity, is not, and there is no reason a person should not be interested in, or talk about, their ethnicity.  If she really has a connection, then she is in fact a "white" woman who has that ethnic connection, there isn't some kind of contradiction.

 

I live on the East coast, most First Nations people here have some mixed ancestry, and a lot are indistinguishable from people of European origin.  There are also some who have been, for many generations, city people living lives largely indistinguishable from other city people.  They aren't being manipulative or appropriating or anything else to say who they are in terms of ethnicity.

[momacacia]

Good thing I come to this board. I'm all up on EW and the NA issue now.

 

In response to OP, my mom celebrates St. Patrick's Day (sans alcohol) on the level of Christmas and now includes my kids in it. After many years of this, she actually does a DNA test and finds she is in fact 30% Irish (which now justifies this, imo overly-enthusiastic, celebration of what my addled brain sometimes calls Leprechaun Day). So the question is, was it offensive she goes all out for St. Patrick's? We have storybooks about him, 2 plastic tubs full of decor and celebratory material, etc., before she knew of her heritage?

 

No, if anything I think it shows more appreciation and respect for the culture and country celebrating it the way she does, regardless of her DNA. And my kids say "slanche" all year long when they toast their cups. And if all it takes is 30% of something to make a great person like my Mom, then erin go bragh!

[GoodGrief]

I haven't read every post, so apologies if this has already been said. DNA testing may not show evidence of all ancestors. One gets 50% of DNA from the maternal side and 50% from the paternal side...HOWEVER, that 50% is not evenly distributed among grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. You don't necessarily inherit 25% of your genes from each grandparent. So, one could have a distant Native American ancestor, but not show any evidence of that in the DNA.

 

For example, I only have Irish ancestry from one grandparent; however, my DNA test showed that 42% of my DNA was Irish. More than likely, the 50% I got from my dad was heavy on his maternal parent's genes :-)