Good touch..Inappropriate touch..worst nightmare came true. help

[gardenmom5]

wow thank you for that wording! I can definitely work with that.

That sounds like you're willing to backdown to avoid rocking the boat, irrespective of how it affects your son. Just for cheap rent.

Is that what you mean?

[magnificent_baby]

A person whose child committed suicide is not safe?  Because. . . parents cause their child's suicide? That's hurtful to a lot of people who are already hurting.

 

No that's not what I was saying at all! I am saying it's a possibility that his son was molested by him as well, and if so, perhaps the molestation played a role in his suicide. 

 

It adds to the list of red flags on whether this guy is innocent or not of molesting others.

 

Sorry, didn't word it very well.

Edited February 24, 2016 by magnificent_baby

[Alicia64]

Every adults' feelings in the situation are secondary to the feelings of the kids.

 

This man should not be in their vicinity and certainly not in their home.

 

Your MIL shouldn't be attempting to side w/ the adult -- kids are the ones who need to be listened to.

 

Anything less is completely in appropriate.

 

Look at it this way: if there's been a terrible misunderstanding (which is highly doubtful), let the adult get hurt feelings -- not the child. Children have to be protected.

 

And, the minute you don your mother bear cape and lose the "I feel powerless" thing . . . everything will change. (Oh, and tough luck if she's mortified and offended. Her problem. She's an adult, she can take it.)

 

Mother bears are no joke.

 

Alley

[gardenmom5]

I would probably send your MIL and email or long text that said something along the lines of:

 

1. That text wasn't meant for you, it was a mistake, I meant to send it to my mother. Sorry about that.

2. I have known about this for X years and have chosen not to take legal action, but simply to avoid having him around my kids for their protection and his.

3. I do not expect you to do anything or say anything about this. I never intended to tell you in the first place. Please drop it.

So what if it was intended for mom and went to mil instead. Why give her the excuse of plausible deniability?

WHy the backing down? She should know there's evidence of her hubby being scummier than she knew. ( she knew he cheated on his ex wife.) That's her grandson he grabbed!

[angelica]

I talked to with her.. She was trying to think of anything that seemed out of normal. She told me the last time he was here was December 2012 so that would make our son 5 and they were apparently rough housing and my son said "you touched my private parts, you can't touch private parts". That sounds like my son! I felt like I recalled that moment, so I asked her if she remembers us being in the room, and she can't remember, but that it was on the couch or tv room. I had already told her it happened on the couch, which we still have.

 

So anyways, she views it at innocent rough house play where he may have accidently touched him. She knows in her heart that he is not that type of person. She knows that type. which I told her there really is no type and that many are friendly and charming and the last person you would ever think of to do something.

Edited March 10, 2016 by angelica

[Harriet Vane]

Angelica

 

Statistically speaking, it is normal for spouses of pedophiles to side with the pedophile. They typically deny or minimize what was done. There is a lot of rationalizing and a lot of "He would never do that," or "He's not a bad person." 

 

Obviously it's not right that they do this. Your mother-in-law's reaction is very, very typical for the wife of a pedophile. 

 

To be fair, most loving wives would have a hard time believing their spouse could do such a thing. However, if you look at the statistics and read any case histories, it is more usual for spouses of pedophiles to side with the pedophile even in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Where there is little evidence other than the word of a small child, they are even less likely to break loyalty to the pedophile.

 

What this means for you is that you are absolutely unlikely to win this fight. You will not be able to have a rational or a reasonable conversation. Therefore, your discussion should be minimal, and you should be willing to repeat one simple mantra, over and over:

 

"So-and-so grabbed Son on the crotch on purpose. Son is not lying or mistaken. I believe Son. So-and-so is not welcome in our home and cannot have contact with our children."

 

Repeat as often as necessary. 

 

When there are attempts to minimize what was done or to insist that your son is mistaken in some way, simply repeat this statement. 

 

Do not have any big family meetings about this. Just stick to this simple statement.

 

The only evidence needed is your son's word. He had no reason to lie or make this up.

 

Do not allow your MIL to talk to your son about this. Forbid her specifically to re-traumatize him with any further conversation on this topic. State explicitly that she is NEVER to bring this up to your son or talk to him directly about this. I cannot emphasize enough how important this is. She could do a lot of damage.

 

 

I think you should consider a different home to live in. Issues like this go deep, and being enmeshed financially as well as emotionally can get complicated. Plus this issue will come up again, I promise. 

 

 

As for calling the police or a child abuse hotline--you definitely have cause to do so. However, it is totally unlikely that anything will come of it. There is no physical evidence. There was one incident years ago, and unfortunately the testimony of young children is often held to be less credible in the courts. It is your child's word against the word of an adult for an incident that happened through his clothes years ago. What happened to your son is wrong. His feelings and your feelings about this incident are legitimate, and the perpetrator is scum. Unfortunately true as all that may be, the fact is that there is very little legal recourse in this type of situation. That said, you are right to maintain vigilance over no-contact, because you could totally be held responsible for further exposure to the perpetrator. (So could you MIL, for that matter.)

 

More importantly, your son needs to clearly know and see and feel that you believe him and that you will keep him away from danger AND you will keep him away from simply being uncomfortable in the presence of someone who is not safe.

 

 

[Alicia64]

Angelica

 

Statistically speaking, it is normal for spouses of pedophiles to side with the pedophile. They typically deny or minimize what was done. There is a lot of rationalizing and a lot of "He would never do that," or "He's not a bad person." 

 

Obviously it's not right that they do this. Your mother-in-law's reaction is very, very typical for the wife of a pedophile. 

 

To be fair, most loving wives would have a hard time believing their spouse could do such a thing. However, if you look at the statistics and read any case histories, it is more usual for spouses of pedophiles to side with the pedophile even in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Where there is little evidence other than the word of a small child, they are even less likely to break loyalty to the pedophile.

 

What this means for you is that you are absolutely unlikely to win this fight. You will not be able to have a rational or a reasonable conversation. Therefore, your discussion should be minimal, and you should be willing to repeat one simple mantra, over and over:

 

"So-and-so grabbed Son on the crotch on purpose. Son is not lying or mistaken. I believe Son. So-and-so is not welcome in our home and cannot have contact with our children."

 

Repeat as often as necessary. 

 

When there are attempts to minimize what was done or to insist that your son is mistaken in some way, simply repeat this statement. 

 

Do not have any big family meetings about this. Just stick to this simple statement.

 

The only evidence needed is your son's word. He had no reason to lie or make this up.

 

Do not allow your MIL to talk to your son about this. Forbid her specifically to re-traumatize him with any further conversation on this topic. State explicitly that she is NEVER to bring this up to your son or talk to him directly about this. I cannot emphasize enough how important this is. She could do a lot of damage.

 

 

I think you should consider a different home to live in. Issues like this go deep, and being enmeshed financially as well as emotionally can get complicated. Plus this issue will come up again, I promise. 

 

 

As for calling the police or a child abuse hotline--you definitely have cause to do so. However, it is totally unlikely that anything will come of it. There is no physical evidence. There was one incident years ago, and unfortunately the testimony of young children is often held to be less credible in the courts. It is your child's word against the word of an adult for an incident that happened through his clothes years ago. What happened to your son is wrong. His feelings and your feelings about this incident are legitimate, and the perpetrator is scum. Unfortunately true as all that may be, the fact is that there is very little legal recourse in this type of situation. That said, you are right to maintain vigilance over no-contact, because you could totally be held responsible for further exposure to the perpetrator. (So could you MIL, for that matter.)

 

More importantly, your son needs to clearly know and see and feel that you believe him and that you will keep him away from danger AND you will keep him away from simply being uncomfortable in the presence of someone who is not safe.

 

This info. is right on target.

 

What you MIL "knows in her heart" has nothing to do with this situation.

 

Alley

 

[Harriet Vane]

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I know he doesn't have contact with kids and besides our kids, on dh's side there are none.

 

You really have no way of knowing whether or not he has contact with other kids. 

 

I read your post after I wrote mine. I stand by what I wrote. 

 

Rather than talking to your son about the rough-housing, take him to a therapist. Put it all in front of the therapist and let that person sort it out. Don't question your son ad infinitum about all the possibilities. Being grilled is horribly stressful. He told you what happened. Believe him.

[JumpyTheFrog]

If it was just an accident during rough housing, why would your son still remember and feel sick about it?

[FaithManor]

Hear Hear Harriet Vane!

 

The bottom line is that this man may or may not have other victims, and since he lives far enough away for you to not be around his daily life, you really don't have a clue what he is up to at any time.

 

Your son, deep down, very likely knows the difference between that "in the run of things, we bumped parts" type thing that happens when people wrestle, rough house, trip over each other playing tag, etc. It is very different from being grabbed. It would not be bothering him like this.

 

You are not an expert; you have no experience. It's is in your son's very best interest to let someone with training and experience flesh it out. Believe me, good therapists aren't looking to create problems where there are none. They are there to help. Their hearts grieve when children are abused so they are more than happy to have a good day at work where they get to see a client and think, "Whew! This little one is A OKAY!"

 

Don't sweep it under the rug because that is easier for the grown ups. That is what my brother and SIL did, and they paid a very dear price for it as their now adult daughter does not trust them with their grandbaby because she does not feel her parents will keep the child safe. No trust. You don't want that kind of pain in your heart in the future.

[DesertBlossom]

Your mother-in-law's reaction is very, very typical for the wife of a pedophile.

 

 

This should be how we judge if a man is a pedophile. Ask his wife. If she says he could never do anything like that, clearly he's a pedophile.

 

I mean really. I am not trying to minimize the seriousness of this situation. But it really makes me sick how some posters jump to conclusions. The man grabbed the child's crotch while rough-housing. And now you KNOW he's also molested other kids and that his son committed suicide because he had been molested too? Let's stick with the facts, please. We don't know what this man has done. We don't know how dangerous he is. We don't know that he's predatory considering it was a crime of opportunity. The OP can and should do everything in her power to protect her son. But the fear-mongering is too much.

 

I love these forums, but some posters like to jump to too many conclusions and connect imaginary dots. The OP asked for help regarding her specific situation. Not for people to imagine up all the worst case scenarios.

Edited February 24, 2016 by DesertBlossom

[abba12]

There's a lot of people with a lot of strong opinions here who have never actually had to do it. 'move out, call the police, ban him from your life, the MIL's reaction is totally unacceptable' etc.

 

The MIL is reacting the same way the vast majority of peadophile spouses react. Right or wrong, her reaction is totally, completely normal, so can we not act as if there's something wrong with her, or that she's mentally ill or intentionally enabling her spouse? Go read a few books written by spouses of paedophiles. Paedophiles are very manipulative people, usually wonderful charismatic types who everyone loves. There's a reason they're successful. In some ways you could even view the MIL as a victim too. Yeah, she should be siding with the child, of course she should side with the child, you're all right that children need to be believed no matter what. but it's very, very normal behaviour for her not to, and doesn't say anything about her character other than she trusts her spouse of 20 years overs a memory from a 2-3 year old. 

 

You can't go to the police based on what an 8 year old says happened to them at 2-3. As a parent you should believe them, but legally, you have nothing. Absolutely nothing. If a teenager was relaying what happened when they were 8 it would be different, but things are too easily misinterpreted at 2 or 3 and many people don't have memories from that age at all, and talking someone into a false memory from that age is very easy. This DOES NOT mean that the parent shouldn't believe their child completely and totally, right or wrong. But, going to the police would serve absolutely no purpose but re-traumatizing the child. People saying 'I don't understand why you haven't called the police yet' obviously have no idea how evidence works. We don't send people to jail based on the word of a 2 year old (or the word of an 8 year old remembering their interpretation of what happened at 2), and there is absolutely no other proof or witnesses here. It cannot and will not go anywhere. 

 

As to the rest of it, all I can say is that it's very easy to say, it's a whole lot harder to do, especially when the only thing you have is a child's memory of an incident as a toddler, which, honestly, while it deserves to be believed, is rather unreliable and has a certain chance of being misinterpreted/false. 

 

OTOH, OP, roughhousing is a pretty classic way that paedophiles gain access to touch a child even in a 'public' situation, so that's another big red flag, and I would consider casually, lightly bringing it up. It wont make a difference legally (you can't prove it wasn't an accidental touch, totally acceptable within the context of that particular game)  but it might help you to feel more confident in believing your child and acting on it, because, whether people here like it or not, it's HARD to believe the memory of a 2 year old over multiple adults and long term relationships. There's no shame in that being a difficult thing to do. But the more confident you feel in that belief, the more confident you'll be to simply say to step-FIL 'no' without feeling that need to smooth everything over or keep people happy. 

 

 

[abba12]

Your son, deep down, very likely knows the difference between that "in the run of things, we bumped parts" type thing that happens when people wrestle, rough house, trip over each other playing tag, etc. It is very different from being grabbed. It would not be bothering him like this.

 

If it was just an accident during rough housing, why would your son still remember and feel sick about it?

 

 

Re-read the post, the MIL brought up the roughbousing, the son has never mentioned it, and the OP is debating whether to ask the son about it.  The incident the son has spoken about was an earlier one, at 2 or 3.

 

People who want to get very passionate about what should and should not happen should at least be able to read the facts correctly. This thread is getting ridiculous. 

[TranquilMind]

I talked to with her.. She was trying to think of anything that seemed out of normal. She told me the last time he was here was December 2012 so that would make our son 5 and they were apparently rough housing and my son said "you touched my private parts, you can't touch private parts". That sounds like my son! I felt like I recalled that moment, so I asked her if she remembers us being in the room, and she can't remember, but that it was on the couch or tv room. I had already told her it happened on the couch, which we still have.

 

So anyways, she views it at innocent rough house play where he may have accidently touched him. She knows in her heart that he is not that type of person. She knows that type. which I told her there really is no type and that many are friendly and charming and the last person you would ever think of to do something.

 

I understand how she may feel, she has been with this man for almost two decades. She says he loves us like family, views her son as his own, talks to him more than he talks to his other son(if that is true how sad because dh and him don't talk unless in person which it's been years now), and thinks of our boys as his grandkids. In her eyes, he would never even think of doing anything to hurt them. I don't care what he thinks of us, I don't think of him as a daddy or even a father figure, even if he didn't "accidently" touch my son, I wouldn't be sad if he died. I would only be sad for my mil because she lost the man she loves.

 

She was not attacking like I anticipated but just wanted to reassure me that I don't have anything to worry about. I told her I understand where she is coming from and that it must be hard for her to hear this, and vise versa. Told her I do prefer that when she visits, that she visit alone. She agreed, and said that she enjoys that much more. Made sure to say that he may view himself as their grandpa, but he isn't, just like their step grandma is not their grandma.

 

And she now knows that I don't allow rough house play, not even between our boys. I don't think it's productive and once they get to that point I know it's time to go outside and ride bikes and just burn energy running around. Back then though, my boy was 5 and our his bro was 1, so there was no rough housing, not even between his dad and him, but I guess when he came to visit he got a dose of that typical boy stuff. Then she said that our 5 year old would be too shy to rough house so we don't have to worry about that. And even if he wasn't shy, I wouldn't allow him to rough house with an old man because it's not necessary.

 

Now I am conflicted on whether or not to ask my son whether or not he recalls rough housing when the touching happened.

 

And for what it's worth, mil did say that if she ever felt something was not right, she would not be married to him. .

 

 

 

 

As far as I know he doesn't have contact with kids and besides our kids, on dh's side there are none.

I'm really confused here.  You were there at the time, four years ago, when your son said this?  She remembers the incident and where it was - on the couch? 

 

If so, why was it not addressed then?  Was it her house or yours? 

[zoobie]

Does she normally have a very precise memory? Because that's an awfully specific recollection for someone to whom this shouldn't have even registered. I know people with freaky memories. I sometimes have one, but that seems off too me.

 

Please don't talk to your son again. Let a professional. The more you talk to him, the LESS reliable his memory becomes. It's possible that nothing happened in terms of assault, but your DS remembered something that made him uncomfortable at the time. It may have been abuse. It may have been accidental. The more you talk to him about it, the less likely he is to be able to work through this with a professional who knows what to ask and how. You'll never know for sure, but the repeated questioning is making it much more difficult.

 

I would freak if I found out via text that my DIL suspected DH of molesting her child. I don't think I could believe that of him. Acting shocked and surprised is a normal human reaction. I would want to know details too. I hopefully would handle it better than this MIL did, but I don't think her reaction is out of line. She does not have a right to demand that OP talk to her or when she talks IMO. And if I were her, of course I would get someone else to supervise repairs.

[magnificent_baby]

There's a lot of people with a lot of strong opinions here who have never actually had to do it. 'move out, call the police, ban him from your life, the MIL's reaction is totally unacceptable' etc.

 

The MIL is reacting the same way the vast majority of peadophile spouses react. Right or wrong, her reaction is totally, completely normal, so can we not act as if there's something wrong with her, or that she's mentally ill or intentionally enabling her spouse? Go read a few books written by spouses of paedophiles. Paedophiles are very manipulative people, usually wonderful charismatic types who everyone loves. There's a reason they're successful. In some ways you could even view the MIL as a victim too. Yeah, she should be siding with the child, of course she should side with the child, you're all right that children need to be believed no matter what. but it's very, very normal behaviour for her not to, and doesn't say anything about her character other than she trusts her spouse of 20 years overs a memory from a 2-3 year old. 

 

You can't go to the police based on what an 8 year old says happened to them at 2-3. As a parent you should believe them, but legally, you have nothing. Absolutely nothing. If a teenager was relaying what happened when they were 8 it would be different, but things are too easily misinterpreted at 2 or 3 and many people don't have memories from that age at all, and talking someone into a false memory from that age is very easy. This DOES NOT mean that the parent shouldn't believe their child completely and totally, right or wrong. But, going to the police would serve absolutely no purpose but re-traumatizing the child. People saying 'I don't understand why you haven't called the police yet' obviously have no idea how evidence works. We don't send people to jail based on the word of a 2 year old (or the word of an 8 year old remembering their interpretation of what happened at 2), and there is absolutely no other proof or witnesses here. It cannot and will not go anywhere. 

 

As to the rest of it, all I can say is that it's very easy to say, it's a whole lot harder to do, especially when the only thing you have is a child's memory of an incident as a toddler, which, honestly, while it deserves to be believed, is rather unreliable and has a certain chance of being misinterpreted/false. 

 

OTOH, OP, roughhousing is a pretty classic way that paedophiles gain access to touch a child even in a 'public' situation, so that's another big red flag, and I would consider casually, lightly bringing it up. It wont make a difference legally (you can't prove it wasn't an accidental touch, totally acceptable within the context of that particular game)  but it might help you to feel more confident in believing your child and acting on it, because, whether people here like it or not, it's HARD to believe the memory of a 2 year old over multiple adults and long term relationships. There's no shame in that being a difficult thing to do. But the more confident you feel in that belief, the more confident you'll be to simply say to step-FIL 'no' without feeling that need to smooth everything over or keep people happy. 

 

Regarding the bold: I disagree with you. Every state varies in it's statute of limitations, and it's also dependent upon the type of act. Some range from 1 year, others have no time limit. Might be hard to prove, however, it's the role of the expert interviewers and other professionals to determine that. 

 

https://apps.rainn.org/CrimeDef/landing-page-statutes.cfm

 

https://victimsofcrime.org/docs/DNA%20Resource%20Center/sol-for-sexual-assault-check-chart---final---copy.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

And for what it's worth, mil did say that if she ever felt something was not right, she would not be married to him. .

 

 

what did you expect her to say?  admit she's a lousy judge of charater of her own husband? (didn't bother her he cheated on his ex-wife - and had a child with his lover . . . )

 

 my boys roughhoused - and never grabbed each other's crotch.  they rough house with dudeling - and nothing of the sort has ever happened.

[Xahm]

I can easily imagine a situation in which, in the course of roughhousing, a perfectly upright fellow (or lady) accidentally touched a child in an inappropriate place and then didn't know what to do. Would pointing it out and apologizing freak the kid out? I can't imagine an upright person being told by the child "you touched my privates" and that person not apologizing, explaining it was an accident, and talking to the child's parents to let them know what happened. 

[abba12]

Regarding the bold: I disagree with you. Every state varies in it's statute of limitations, and it's also dependent upon the type of act. Some range from 1 year, others have no time limit. Might be hard to prove, however, it's the role of the expert interviewers and other professionals to determine that. 

 

https://apps.rainn.org/CrimeDef/landing-page-statutes.cfm

 

https://victimsofcrime.org/docs/DNA%20Resource%20Center/sol-for-sexual-assault-check-chart---final---copy.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

This isn't a statute of limitations issue, we have very generous statutes of limitations here and that bears no relevance to what I said. it's a 'can we trust the memories of a 2 year old' issue. My two year old claimed the cat pooped on the bed, and that there was a monster in her cupboard too, but that doesn't make them true. Now, if my two year old said they had been touched by a relative I would believe them, I have to as a parent and I would trust them, but, a court is pretty darn unlikely to. 2 year olds aren't exactly reliable witnesses from a LEGAL standpoint. a COURT has no more reason to believe the 2 year old was touched than they do to believe the 2 year old saw a monster. A parent does. A judge doesn't.

 

And as someone who has been through police/court processes, and know others who have as well, I would never put a child through it unless I thought they had a good chance of actually getting somewhere with the claim. Those 'experts' and 'professionals' can do more damage than the perpetrator ever did (and then blame that further damage on the perpetrator), but people who haven't been through the process themselves rarely believe or understand that. Taking legal action against a sexual crime without good, solid evidence is often a traumatic and fruitless endeavour that only solidifies the fear and the guilt. Walking through a police station as a child, or speaking to people in a court situation who, by definition, are judging you, is in some cases more traumatic than being touched in a private place to begin with. So, no, I don't think it's up to experts and professionals to determine whether a child can make a worthwhile case in court with absolutely no evidence beyond a toddlers memories.

 

(note, there are cases of people who abused toddlers pressing charges, but all the ones I've ever heard of had some other form of evidence, multiple victims, something other than memories of a toddler)

[*LC]

I want to make sure I understand something correctly.

 

2012 your son was 4/5, and the man in question touched him. He did not say thing

20?? You read your children a book that talked about inappropriate touching and asked if anyone had everyone touched them. Your older son said, "yes, when I was around 4, that man touched me." When asked, he described the incident.

2016 The man is coming to town, and you ask son, who is 8 turning 9, if he remembers ?? And he says yes.

 

What year was it when your son first mentioned the incident?

 

For what it is worth I have kids that lied/were confused about incidents at that age. One reported being punished at preschool for something he should not have done. I gave an additional punishment for it. He understood and accepted the punishment. When I asked the teacher about it, my son had not done anything wrong and was not punished at preschool. With a different child, when my husband died, our 4/5 year-old insisted I shot and killed Daddy even though he was in hospice care at the time of his death.

[abba12]

I want to make sure I understand something correctly.

2012 your son was 4/5, and the man in question touched him. He did not say thing

20?? You read your children a book that talked about inappropriate touching and asked if anyone had everyone touched them. Your older son said, "yes, when I was around 4, that man touched me." When asked, he described the incident.

2016 The man is coming to town, and you ask son, who is 8 turning 9, if he remembers ?? And he says yes.

What year was it when your son first mentioned the incident?

For what it is worth I have kids that lied/were confused about incidents at that age. One reported being punished at preschool for something he should not have done. I gave an additional punishment for it. He understood and accepted the punishment. When I asked the teacher about it, my son had not done anything wrong and was not punished at preschool. With a different child, when my husband died, our 4/5 year-old insisted I shot and killed Daddy even though he was in hospice care at the time of his death.

My understanding is, they read the book at age 4, the incident recalled was age 2 or 3, a couple years prior

This new roughhousing incident has never been mentioned by the child, was raised by the mother in law, and occurred at age 5, after the book

[abba12]

He does stand behind me and believes our son. It was on the couch and we were all apparently in the same room. Now I know that all those gut feelings back in the day when we lived together in this house for a year before they moved to another state for mil job transfer. We'd all be watching tv and our son as like 2/3 at the time and he'd always be with this guy. I remember even telling my dh, grab him and have him sit next to you. Have him sit next to his grandma for crying out loud but not him, he's not family by blood and it's not kosher with me. So I always grabbed him if dh didn't and get him next to me, but I guess that wasn't enough. Still happened under our nose with us right there it seems.

 

This is where I've gotten the age 2/3 thing from, I assumed it occured while they were living together, which was age 2-3. And she referred to it happening on the couch. 

[Joanne]

Well this is her only child so I couldn't imagine it ever getting to that. If she chose him over her son and us, then I feel sad for her because she is probably being manipulated in other ways. I'm not trying to make her choose anything though. Now that the cats out of the bag I feel like she wants to put it back inside and pretend it was never there in the first place. So yes, lets pray my son misinterpreted a touch as a toddler.

 

But the fact that he's 8 now and can recall the memory makes me sad. My boy is smart and has lots of friends, I don't want to side track him with this incident that happened half his life ago. You know? I feel like if it really was just one incident, talking to a therapist makes it bigger and then as he grows up he will recall that experience too. 

 

Angelica,

 

This thread has disturbed me from the first time I read the OP. As the posts have unfolded, I have gotten more concerned.

Your son was sexually assaulted/molested at 4. You under-responded due to common (but not ok) dynamics around the issue. The issue NOW is that you continue to minimize, deflect, and under-respond. Let's be clear - you under responded to the needs of your son at 4, and to the danger this man is.

 

Please stop minimizing the abuse. Please. You minimized it with the "over clothes" meme, you minimize it with "just one incident" and you minimize it above with "years ago" and that you don't want to bring him to therapy.

 

If it were me, I would NOT BE LIVING IN A HOME that allowed for a child molester to have access to my family, my family's stuff, my family's pictures, routines, not anything.

[Ellesmere]

This is where I've gotten the age 2/3 thing from, I assumed it occured while they were living together, which was age 2-3. And she referred to it happening on the couch. 

 

Looking at her own words she said he was four or five, didn't she? And he spoke up at the time? 

 

So when my son was around 4 he says he was touched over his pants. 

 

I talked to with her.. She was trying to think of anything that seemed out of normal. She told me the last time he was here was December 2012 so that would make our son 5 and they were apparently rough housing and my son said "you touched my private parts, you can't touch private parts". That sounds like my son! I felt like I recalled that moment, so I asked her if she remembers us being in the room, and she can't remember, but that it was on the couch or tv room. I had already told her it happened on the couch, which we still have.

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't understand any of this.

[abba12]

Looking at her own words she said he was four or five, didn't she? And he spoke up at the time? 

 

Quoting from that same paragraph "This came up when I asked the kids if anyone has ever touched them inappropriately before, and my oldest said only one person, this man. "

 

So it wasn't a speaking up at the time, it came up because (I believe she said somewhere a book was read)  and she asked directly. 

 

Obviously there's a huge difference between the memories of a 2yo and the memories of a 5yo. 

[importswim]

I think that you need to go with your gut on this one no matter what your family or anyone else believes.

 

For a VERY long time I've thought one of my uncles was "off". He made me uncomfortable and he's never done anything in any way remotely inappropriate with me.

 

About 10 years ago I was talking to my SIL and she had said that uncle had made some inappropriate remarks to her (they're similar ages) and that she'd just brushed them off. No one believed her but me.

 

Last year dear uncle had charges filed against him for stalking AND from 3 separate people saying that he was sexually inappropriate with them (comments, grabbing, not rape). My whole family were flabbergasted and it's taken a long time for the shock to wear off.

 

In my own mind I felt validated for my feelings. I was starting to think that I was the one that was being silly.

 

All that to say, follow your intuition and don't let anyone talk you down from what you're feeling. I would not have any contact with this person and would try to make sure that I wasn't at the house when he was around.

[purplejackmama]

Just throwing this out there. If one of my boys was rough housing and a grown up "accidently" touched their privates I really can't imagine them reacting the way your MIL says you son did.

 

Trust your instincts. Something is really wrong here!!

[Ellesmere]

Quoting from that same paragraph "This came up when I asked the kids if anyone has ever touched them inappropriately before, and my oldest said only one person, this man. "

 

So it wasn't a speaking up at the time, it came up because (I believe she said somewhere a book was read)  and she asked directly. 

 

Obviously there's a huge difference between the memories of a 2yo and the memories of a 5yo. 

 

Ok, I see that now. Her story is spread over so many posts that I could be wrong. From what I read: there was an incident that happened at age 2/3 and he didn't speak of it until age four (?). Then MIL said what I put in bold in her story below, meaning that at age 5 there was also a rough housing incident and he spoke up at the time. So now she is wondering if there were two incidents. Again, I could be wrong in how I read all her posts. So if he was five and speaking up, regardless of how I felt about the memories of a toddler, then I would say that is cause for concern along with all the other red flags going up.

(Sorry I messed up the multiquote and your name is on top here):

 

I talked to with her.. She was trying to think of anything that seemed out of normal. She told me the last time he was here was December 2012 so that would make our son 5 and they were apparently rough housing and my son said "you touched my private parts, you can't touch private parts". That sounds like my son! I felt like I recalled that moment, so I asked her if she remembers us being in the room, and she can't remember, but that it was on the couch or tv room. I had already told her it happened on the couch, which we still have.

 

...

 

Now I am conflicted on whether or not to ask my son whether or not he recalls rough housing when the touching happened.

 

 

[magnificent_baby]

This isn't a statute of limitations issue, we have very generous statutes of limitations here and that bears no relevance to what I said. it's a 'can we trust the memories of a 2 year old' issue. My two year old claimed the cat pooped on the bed, and that there was a monster in her cupboard too, but that doesn't make them true. Now, if my two year old said they had been touched by a relative I would believe them, I have to as a parent and I would trust them, but, a court is pretty darn unlikely to. 2 year olds aren't exactly reliable witnesses from a LEGAL standpoint. a COURT has no more reason to believe the 2 year old was touched than they do to believe the 2 year old saw a monster. A parent does. A judge doesn't.

 

And as someone who has been through police/court processes, and know others who have as well, I would never put a child through it unless I thought they had a good chance of actually getting somewhere with the claim. Those 'experts' and 'professionals' can do more damage than the perpetrator ever did (and then blame that further damage on the perpetrator), but people who haven't been through the process themselves rarely believe or understand that. Taking legal action against a sexual crime without good, solid evidence is often a traumatic and fruitless endeavour that only solidifies the fear and the guilt. Walking through a police station as a child, or speaking to people in a court situation who, by definition, are judging you, is in some cases more traumatic than being touched in a private place to begin with. So, no, I don't think it's up to experts and professionals to determine whether a child can make a worthwhile case in court with absolutely no evidence beyond a toddlers memories.

 

(note, there are cases of people who abused toddlers pressing charges, but all the ones I've ever heard of had some other form of evidence, multiple victims, something other than memories of a toddler)

 

 

 

As far as putting kids through more trauma by interviewing, I suppose it's all in how it's handled. Where I live, the organization I spoke of in a previous post treats their process as the first step to healing. They are interviewed in a very non-traumatic manner, the kids are medically examined to remind them how healthy they are and nothing is wrong with them (I know this because my NP professor does the exams). Followed by whatever therapy or resources they might need. They truly are the experts at this, and that's why I suggested this route to the OP.

 

I don't think you can say for sure that *nothing* will be done unless you have tried. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by magnificent_baby

[Scarlett]

I wish the OP would clarify the time line.  

 

I understood it this way.  When he was 4 he told his mother that this man had touched his privates outside of his pants.  The parents didn't know what to do so they basically did nothing except to keep a close eye on him when he was near their children.  Recently, the OP was reading a book to her kids and asked them if they had ever been touched inappropriately and the boy (now  8 years old) repeated the story he had told his mother when he was 4.

 

Is that right OP?

[eternalsummer]

But then when she told MIL about it, MIL said that something had happened when the son was 5 (the roughhousing incident).  Aren't these two separate incidents?

 

I agree that the time line is confusing.

 

OP, where  is your husband in this situation?  Isn't it his primary responsibility, as it's his family?  Does he not believe your son, or does he think it's not a big deal?  

[MomatHWTK]

Angelica,

 

This thread has disturbed me from the first time I read the OP. As the posts have unfolded, I have gotten more concerned.

Your son was sexually assaulted/molested at 4. You under-responded due to common (but not ok) dynamics around the issue. The issue NOW is that you continue to minimize, deflect, and under-respond. Let's be clear - you under responded to the needs of your son at 4, and to the danger this man is.

 

Please stop minimizing the abuse. Please. You minimized it with the "over clothes" meme, you minimize it with "just one incident" and you minimize it above with "years ago" and that you don't want to bring him to therapy.

 

If it were me, I would NOT BE LIVING IN A HOME that allowed for a child molester to have access to my family, my family's stuff, my family's pictures, routines, not anything.

:iagree:  This this this. Minimizing it normalizes it. Normalizing it makes it ok to do or to have happen. 

[importswim]

angelica, on 23 Feb 2016 - 4:26 PM, said:

Okay I was going to talk to her a bit ago but after I picked up from preschool kids were playing at park and I was talking to a mom, so I ignored her call. She texted me saying "you realize this is eating me up. I cant even think straight..not cuz i think he might have..cuz it makes me sick cuz you think he did." Then she wanted to know why I can't talk right then and said I know in my heart this is misunderstanding or accidental touching. I need to clear this.

 

My phone is legit dying and I have the kids around so I'm not going out of my way to call her when it seems like i'm already set up to be on the defense as she attacks me for something my son told me 4 years ago. He's 8 now, almost 9. I am seeing her true colors now? She has always been so nice, we have always gotten along and now I am sad.

Yep, because it's all about her. *smacks head*

 

It's obvious that she's not going to believe you and she will stop at nothing to let you know that. She's putting her husband's feelings above yours and your sons. I would just text back: I'm not willing to talk about it.

 

You don't have to "make things right" with her and you don't need to talk to her so that HER mind can be assuaged about it. What about YOUR mind and the mind of your son. Her response to you and her texts show that she really doesn't care. If she did she'd be trying to find out what happened not jump to the defensive side.

[gardenmom5]

:iagree:  This this this. Minimizing it normalizes it. Normalizing it makes it ok to do or to have happen. 

 

normalizing make the child feel THEY have done something wrong because they objected to "normal' touching (interaction).  normalizing makes the victim of abuse - ashamed for objecting to being victimized (because the message they get is, "it's normal".)

[abba12]

Still disagree with you. 

 

*PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE AS I'LL DELETE THIS SOON*

 

I've never heard of a program like that for victims. It sounds wonderful, I wish more children had access to it. I was working from my experience and the experiences of a bunch of other women in support groups I've been part of, and our experiences were nothing like that, at all, unfortunately. At the very least the OP should find out what is available to them before starting the process. Even I could see myself possibly consenting to a program like the one you've described. But I'm curious now how widespread that sort of thing is.

[magnificent_baby]

I've never heard of a program like that for victims. It sounds wonderful, I wish more children had access to it. I was working from my experience and the experiences of a bunch of other women in support groups I've been part of, and our experiences were nothing like that, at all, unfortunately. At the very least the OP should find out what is available to them before starting the process. Even I could see myself possibly consenting to a program like the one you've described. But I'm curious now how widespread that sort of thing is.

 

It is really a blessing to our community. I'm in a large city, but not huge, so I would think there would be places like this around. It operates on grants and donations. 

[MomatHWTK]

Maybe a US thing? We have a special "house" that victims can go to for interviews, etc. with specifically trained officers and assistants.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

A child will remember when a parent doesn't do everything in their power to protect them.

[Harriet Vane]

This should be how we judge if a man is a pedophile. Ask his wife. If she says he could never do anything like that, clearly he's a pedophile.

 

I mean really. I am not trying to minimize the seriousness of this situation. But it really makes me sick how some posters jump to conclusions. The man grabbed the child's crotch while rough-housing. And now you KNOW he's also molested other kids and that his son committed suicide because he had been molested too? Let's stick with the facts, please. We don't know what this man has done. We don't know how dangerous he is. We don't know that he's predatory considering it was a crime of opportunity. The OP can and should do everything in her power to protect her son. But the fear-mongering is too much.

 

I love these forums, but some posters like to jump to too many conclusions and connect imaginary dots. The OP asked for help regarding her specific situation. Not for people to imagine up all the worst case scenarios.

 

NO. That is not how we judge whether or not the man is a pedophile.

 

Rather, we judge this man's actions based on the testimony of a credible witness who has no incentive or reason to lie or make this up. OP's son said he was grabbed, on purpose, in a way that made him uncomfortable. Based on the limited information in the OP's numerous posts, these are the facts. I tend to believe children when they share that something happened to them.

 

The person who claims that it was accidental while wrestling is the OP's MIL. Not the child. Unlike the child, MIL has an incentive to believe a narrative different from that of the child. I would find her testimony less credible than that of the child. And frankly, so would most child welfare professionals.

 

Most people who encounter abuse of this nature are unprepared for the specific behavioral dynamics that tend to take place as a result of the abuse, and as a result of the disclosure of that abuse. My post was a sincere attempt to help the OP understand what will happen next and how to cope with it.

 

Also, your post completely ignores the fact that I said:

 

To be fair, most loving wives would have a hard time believing their spouse could do such a thing.

 

In other words, MIL's reaction is understandable if she loves her husband. That is the way most of us would react (though many in this thread claim otherwise). 

 

Her understandable reaction does not negate the fact that, as I also said in my post:

 

However, if you look at the statistics and read any case histories, it is more usual for spouses of pedophiles to side with the pedophile even in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Where there is little evidence other than the word of a small child, they are even less likely to break loyalty to the pedophile.

 

 

The fact that the alleged perpetrator has a son who committed suicide IS a red flag. It is possible that his son committed suicide for reasons unknown to us here. It is also possible that his son was abused. Statistically speaking, people who molest children overwhelmingly tend to molest many children. Of course there are probably some who do not match the profile, but when dealing with child safety, it's best to act based on the behavior of the majority of perpetrators rather than on the slim hope that this perpetrator is the exception.

 

The child's right to not be molested again and the child's right to feel and to be safe outstrip the adult's right to be given the benefit of the doubt. 

[angelica]

.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by angelica

[Ravin]

So what if it was intended for mom and went to mil instead. Why give her the excuse of plausible deniability?

WHy the backing down? She should know there's evidence of her hubby being scummier than she knew. ( she knew he cheated on his ex wife.) That's her grandson he grabbed!

I got the impression the OP would rather her MIL drop it than harangue her with denialism.

[Harriet Vane]

I agree on the red flag thing but in all fairness I don't think that people who have children who commit suicide should be to blame. However, the fact that he still has one other son and he is not super close to him is a flag to me. The fact that mil think he feels closer to her son than his son is a bit off putting for me.

 

I agree. I said as much in my post???:

 

 It is possible that his son committed suicide for reasons unknown to us here. It is also possible that his son was abused. Statistically speaking, people who molest children overwhelmingly tend to molest many children. Of course there are probably some who do not match the profile, but when dealing with child safety, it's best to act based on the behavior of the majority of perpetrators rather than on the slim hope that this perpetrator is the exception.

[Lanny]

"never allow my son to be alone with him, ever."

 

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER   If he is in the same place with your son, you must be present, to protect your son, at all times.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Angelica, not to add to your woes, but I'd be very leery to leave your MIL alone with your son either.  Who knows what she will say to him about this.  I would be afraid she would try and tell him it didn't happen, he doesn't remember, etc.

[Katy]

Oh dear.  If they insisted on the pedophile coming near the children I'd threaten them with the police and a restraining order.

 

Honestly I'd have reported already, but I understand the kind of animosity this would create.  You'd ultimately have to move. It wouldn't matter to me because kids come first, but it's a huge disaster.

[purplejackmama]

"never allow my son to be alone with him, ever."

 

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER If he is in the same place with your son, you must be present, to protect your son, at all times.

BUT!! The alleged incidents happened with the her there!!!! Her presence doesn't protect him, there's s track record.

[zoobie]

BUT!! The alleged incidents happened with the her there!!!! Her presence doesn't protect him, there's s track record.

And the child shouldn't have to be around the guy at all ever.

[Ravin]

BUT!! The alleged incidents happened with the her there!!!! Her presence doesn't protect him, there's s track record.

 

Which is why never alone with + no physical contact is the boundary I would set--and not ever in the presence of the child who reported the abuse, inasmuch as that child would prefer it be so. I really fail to see why any of this necessitates moving out of her MIL's house, when her MIL and her MIL's husband live in ANOTHER STATE. I would, at this point, however, want to get a proper written lease in place if there isn't already. And having MIL's husband not allowed inside the house would probably be a lease term going forward. It's not his house, it's his wife's from before the marriage, so even in a community property state, it's her separate property unless she went to the trouble of adding him to the deed as co-owner and thereby gifted him shared ownership.

[FaithManor]

One thing I keep coming back to is that in one of the OP's post she said that the MIL knows more history on the perpetrator and the way it was phrased sounded concerning.

 

She also said that her son feels sick about what happened. Tickling matches, harmless wrestling,...in the run of things there can be accidental touching, but it doesn't usually result in this level of upset.

 

The little boy needs to talk to a professional in order to sort out his feelings. I think that the red flags here are enough to warrant intervention.

 

Personally, I would move immediately. The end. For my son's safety and mental health it simply would not be an option to continue to rent from MIL who will continue to want to send this man to the home to visit and do repairs. While they can change the security code, I would imagine that as owner of the home MIL would have the right to call the company and reset it herself then turn that information over to him giving him access all over again. Staying in that home would not be an option for me.

 

I speak from experience having fostered my then suicidal niece whose parents would not keep the family perp away who groped her numerous times away because it would "cause problems in the family". Her resentment of her parents is huge, and she considers them now as an adult mother to be untrustworthy losers which causes them great pain.