Bulky winter coats and child car seats

[bolt.]

Might even be easier to just not buy too bulky of a coat. The newborn coat I had was not puffy. The material didn't puff up. So I could pull the straps snugly and there wasn't much in between there. Bulky coats are kinda annoying anyway. I have a really good jacket that isn't too puffy. I prefer it.

I'm not sure what you mean. I was thinking "bulky coat" meant "winter coat" -- I've never seen a child's snowsuit that didn't have a coat I would discribe as "puffy". "Puffy" is why they work.

 

I've seen little dressy wool coats for girls, but that's not exactly what toddlers wear everyday here... You'd have to dry clean it all the time, and it wouldn't come with snow pants.

 

I've seen some that are extra puffy, just for fashion's sake, but those cant be the only issue here.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I remember paying about $30 (I think it was $29-something). That was 4 to 7 years ago though, so inflation, etc... here's one that's $35 - I'm going to say that's close enough, right?:

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cosco-Scenera-Convertible-Car-Seat-Harper/26845779

 

Before leaving the hospital with oldest we were asked if we had a car seat (the answer was 'no', since we'd planned a home birth so hadn't planned on needing a car seat the day after the kid was born). They gave us one (for free!). But, that was a baby car seat - I thought this entire thread was about the toddler/preschool car seats. I don't recall what baby car seats cost - we did buy one later iirc, but I just plain don't recall.

 

The weight minimum on that thing is 22 pounds.  So that's not going to work for an infant.

 

I know there are some lower priced ones, but I've never seen one for $30.

[HomeAgain]

A Cosco Scenera is 5-35 RFing, 22-40lbs FFing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm not sure what you mean. I was thinking "bulky coat" meant "winter coat" -- I've never seen a child's snowsuit that didn't have a coat I would discribe as "puffy". "Puffy" is why they work.

 

I've seen little dressy wool coats for girls, but that's not exactly what toddlers wear everyday here... You'd have to dry clean it all the time, and it wouldn't come with snow pants.

 

I've seen some that are extra puffy, just for fashion's sake, but those cant be the only issue here.

 

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/83485?page=girls-katahdin-parka

 

Stuff like this is not puffy at all.  Goes to -10.  I didn't have this one for an infant, but I can't find the one I had.  That was 14 years ago.

[LMV]

This came across my Facebook. The danger of winter coats and car seats. That problem never even crossed my mind when my kids were still in car seats. Do you think this is a serious problem? Do you have personal experience with a problem caused by a bulky winter coat?

 

I have had two different patients just this winter alone with significant injuries from being improperly restrained due to winter coats.  I suppose on the positive side both children did survive but not without significant disabilities in either case.  This same concept also applies to older children and adults with lap belts. Everyone should remove coats before they buckle up.  

[bolt.]

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/83485?page=girls-katahdin-parka

 

Stuff like this is not puffy at all. Goes to -10. I didn't have this one for an infant, but I can't find the one I had. That was 14 years ago.

I think we live in different worlds. I actually laughed.

 

If a child here had *that* as a winter coat, she'd have 3 to 5 proper ones donated to her family within the first 2 weeks of winter. If that didn't work, her family would be getting a visit from a social worker. Thinsulite good to -10 is what we put in ladies' driving gloves. Parkas, snow pants and snow boots are rated at -25 (cheap) to -40 (warm all recess).

[luuknam]

This isn't like letting kids climb trees or not climb trees. Broken bones are at stake with climbing trees. The kids could learn from it to be more careful. There is nothing to learn from dying in a car accident.

 

You can most certainly die from climbing trees. Here is the first example I found involving a kid, but I'm sure there are more:

 

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Teen-Killed-By-Tree-Branch-Outside-Childrens-Fairyland-360649261.html

 

Not every kid who is in a car accident unrestrained dies either, if you wanted to make the argument that way (and they could learn from that too, to be careful drivers when they're adults - I've never been in a car accident, either as driver or as passenger, so maybe I'd be more careful if I had been). I'm not saying that the risk of death by tree is the same as the risk of death by car (I don't even want to begin to look up the statistics, since they'd be hard to compare since the average kid spends a LOT more time in cars than in trees, and I think the hourly risk would in some ways be more relevant), but in both cases there is a lethal risk.

[LMV]

You'd go to jail for being away from your kids while you went to warm up the car.  :p

 

I do have an automatic car starter.  However, if I didn't I would just let the kids use a blanket while the car warmed up (or stay in their coats while the car warmed up and then remove coats and  buckle up right before we start driving). 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think we live in different worlds. I actually laughed.

 

If a child here had *that* as a winter coat, she'd have 3 to 5 proper ones donated to her family within the first 2 weeks of winter. If that didn't work, her family would be getting a visit from a social worker. Thinsulite good to -10 is what we put in ladies' driving gloves. Parkas, snow pants and snow boots are rated at -25 (cheap) to -40 (warm all recess).

 

Yes I didn't take my infant sledding or anything like that. 

 

We are pretty wimpy come winter time.  None of us like doing anything outside during winter. 

[LMV]

Because it's legally required. Put a young kid in the car without a car seat, get pulled over by police and pay fines. Put a young kid in a car seat and buckle the kid improperly, nobody's going to notice. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Pay $30 once to have the legally mandated carseat and be all good.

 

I just have to say that I really don't understand this mindset.  Of course maybe that is because I'm an EM Physician and I see what the downside of this approach at least once every day I work in the ED.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I just have to say that I really don't understand this mindset.  Of course maybe that is because I'm an EM Physician and I see what the downside of this approach at least once every day I work in the ED.

 

Although I'm always kind of baffled that we need laws for certain things.  I wonder is it really enough to make certain people do it?  I'd do it anyway.  But apparently it IS enough for some people.  And they will do it for the mere sake that it is the law.

 

I actually do not think luuk meant it how you think she meant it though.

[luuknam]

The weight minimum on that thing is 22 pounds.  So that's not going to work for an infant.

 

Right. I said that was for a toddler/preschooler, because I thought that was what this thread was (mostly) about. The examples I've seen in this thread were forward-facing car seats, not the rear-facing baby seats (in which case, wouldn't the kid be less likely to fly out of the car seat anyway). I don't know how much a baby seat costs. Anyway, whatever... they're legally required pretty much anywhere in the first world now, and it's pretty obvious if your kid isn't in one (though, when I was a baby I was in a basket under the floor board of the passenger front seat... I guess that's not that visible - but still, if you did that to a newborn now, if someone spotted you (likely to happen at some point), they'd call CPS, which is a much bigger hassle than any traffic ticket).

[SparklyUnicorn]

Right. I said that was for a toddler/preschooler, because I thought that was what this thread was (mostly) about. The examples I've seen in this thread were forward-facing car seats, not the rear-facing baby seats (in which case, wouldn't the kid be less likely to fly out of the car seat anyway). I don't know how much a baby seat costs. Anyway, whatever... they're legally required pretty much anywhere in the first world now, and it's pretty obvious if your kid isn't in one (though, when I was a baby I was in a basket under the floor board of the passenger front seat... I guess that's not that visible - but still, if you did that to a newborn now, if someone spotted you (likely to happen at some point), they'd call CPS, which is a much bigger hassle than any traffic ticket).

 

Oh huh.  See I thought it was more about the very young.

 

I might be naive, but I think most parents want to protect their babies.  I was not told about the puffy coat thing 14 years ago.  I followed whatever they did tell me though.

[Caroline]

I have had two different patients just this winter alone with significant injuries from being improperly restrained due to winter coats. I suppose on the positive side both children did survive but not without significant disabilities in either case. This same concept also applies to older children and adults with lap belts. Everyone should remove coats before they buckle up.

I didn't like this post because of what happened, I liked it because it is what my mom has a ways said. She was a pediatric ER nurse. You can bet that even in the 60's and 70's my sisters and I had car seats and always buckled up.

[luuknam]

I might be naive, but I think most parents want to protect their babies.  I was not told about the puffy coat thing 14 years ago.  I followed whatever they did tell me though.

 

You know, quite often, strapping kids into their car seats is one of the times I like my kids the least and hence am feeling the least protective of them. Of course I want to protect my kids, but when I'm trying to leave the house and finally get to the car after dealing with missing shoes, kids who need help getting their mittens on, kids who whine about who knows what, kids who decide to take a dive into the snow getting snow all over them and into their boots just before getting in the car, I'm just not feeling the love, kwim?

 

(for anyone who's concerned - my kids are too old/big for car seats now, and strap themselves into backless boosters just fine)

[SparklyUnicorn]

You know, quite often, strapping kids into their car seats is one of the times I like my kids the least and hence am feeling the least protective of them. Of course I want to protect my kids, but when I'm trying to leave the house and finally get to the car after dealing with missing shoes, kids who need help getting their mittens on, kids who whine about who knows what, kids who decide to take a dive into the snow getting snow all over them and into their boots just before getting in the car, I'm just not feeling the love, kwim?

 

(for anyone who's concerned - my kids are too old/big for car seats now, and strap themselves into backless boosters just fine)

 

LMAO

 

I can relate to this.  My first had colic.  He screamed all.day.long.  I was lucky to function at all most days.  Probably I should not have been driving at all ever.  Well I didn't do much driving until I could take him out in public.  Nobody really wants to listen to a screaming baby.

 

So winter..oh yeah that was just an added nightmare. 

[Zinnia]

I think we live in different worlds. I actually laughed.

 

If a child here had *that* as a winter coat, she'd have 3 to 5 proper ones donated to her family within the first 2 weeks of winter. If that didn't work, her family would be getting a visit from a social worker. Thinsulite good to -10 is what we put in ladies' driving gloves. Parkas, snow pants and snow boots are rated at -25 (cheap) to -40 (warm all recess).

 

I would probably die.

 

My children wear sweatshirts on cold days.  They have coats (the -10 ones linked to previously), but they refuse to wear them, because "it gets so hot."  My 3 year old's winter coat is a cape. 

 

Winter people we are not.

[luuknam]

I can relate to this.  My first had colic.  He screamed all.day.long.  I was lucky to function at all most days.  Probably I should not have been driving at all ever.

 

My oldest drove me to drive. Well, that, and the fact that my wife made $8/hour or so at her job. I wanted a job that a) paid more and b) I didn't have to listen to crying baby after getting home from work and all night long. So, I got my CDL and became a truck driver. Had him in August 2007, got my CDL in December 2007.

 

Oh, and he would sometimes only sleep when driven. Neither of my kids ever had bulky winter coats when they were infants though. They had fleece for the few weeks it was cold in North Texas.

[Shellydon]

Yes I think it's a problem, I personally know a child who was ejected from his car seat because of a puffy winter coat

[SKL]

Oh huh.  See I thought it was more about the very young.

 

I might be naive, but I think most parents want to protect their babies.  I was not told about the puffy coat thing 14 years ago.  I followed whatever they did tell me though.

 

I think wee babies flying out of rear-facing car seats is the biggest risk.

 

I think the Powers that Be could do a better job of educating the public about how the straps are supposed to be worn, as this would greatly reduce the risk for all kids in all temperatures.

 

When my kids were a year old, I got a flat on the freeway and a cop stopped to help me.  My kids were in the car, and this was before I really knew how the straps were supposed to go.  It would have been nice if the cop had been trained in these things and could tell me gently what I was doing wrong, since he was hanging out with me anyway.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think wee babies flying out of rear-facing car seats is the biggest risk.

 

I think the Powers that Be could do a better job of educating the public about how the straps are supposed to be worn, as this would greatly reduce the risk for all kids in all temperatures.

 

When my kids were a year old, I got a flat on the freeway and a cop stopped to help me.  My kids were in the car, and this was before I really knew how the straps were supposed to go.  It would have been nice if the cop had been trained in these things and could tell me gently what I was doing wrong, since he was hanging out with me anyway.

 

I think there should be more of an effort to make the car seats easier to install properly.  Or something.  I am sure most people who do it incorrectly aren't doing it incorrectly because they don't care.  It seems like it should be easy, but apparently it is not.  And in some circumstances I really do not think it's all that great to have to put the kid in there without a jacket.  It's flipping cold.  I know blah blah warm up the car.  Stick a blanket on them.  What about the rule that we aren't to put a blanket on our infants?  We had that rule too. 

 

[SproutMamaK]

You know, quite often, strapping kids into their car seats is one of the times I like my kids the least and hence am feeling the least protective of them. Of course I want to protect my kids, but when I'm trying to leave the house and finally get to the car after dealing with missing shoes, kids who need help getting their mittens on, kids who whine about who knows what, kids who decide to take a dive into the snow getting snow all over them and into their boots just before getting in the car, I'm just not feeling the love, kwim?

 

(for anyone who's concerned - my kids are too old/big for car seats now, and strap themselves into backless boosters just fine)

 

This is where I'm at right now with my one year old. It's a nightmare just getting her out the door and in to the van, screaming every second of the way, arching her back yelling at me as I try to strap her in, etc. So I'm suppose to wrestle her for 5 minutes to get her coat on, get her safely to the van only to wrestle her back out of her coat again, strap her in to the carseat while she screams bloody murder, then put her coat over her so she doesn't get frostbite while we're driving somewhere? Not like that'll work anyway, she's already taking off everything that's not lierally strapped on to her while we're driving. As in, I buckle her in and she takes off her boots and throws them. Then she takes off her socks. Then she screams because her feet are cold, surprise surprise. There is no "warm up the van ahead of time" option, we have idling laws here: it's literally against the law to leave your vehicle running to warm it up.

 

Right now I use a thin winter coat to keep her safe (and have been putting woolen tights on underneath her pants so she can't strip them off her feet), but in a week or two that won't be good enough and I honestly don't know what I'll do. She will throw off a coat that is not buckled in place with her, and if the temperature goes as low as it has the past few winters (-40), she will be at very real risk for frostbite. It's just not as simple a choice as some people here seem to think it is. I may very well have to choose between adherence to carseat safety, risking my baby getting frostbite, or keeping my older children cut off from all outside social contact for several months of the year.

 

Edited after going out on winter roads to take my kids to therapy, lol: I'm not saying it's all well and good to ignore guidelines re: puffy coats. Given the above options, my best bet will likely be to let let her freeze her buns off and assume that once she gets cold enough, she'll keep the blanket on that my older kids keep tossing over her from the back seat. I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes there is no perfect solution that allows everyone to be as safe as possible at all times while still actually living their lives, and that we have to be careful to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Edited January 18, 2016 by SproutMamaK

[SKL]

I think there should be more of an effort to make the car seats easier to install properly.  Or something.  I am sure most people who do it incorrectly aren't doing it incorrectly because they don't care.  It seems like it should be easy, but apparently it is not.  And in some circumstances I really do not think it's all that great to have to put the kid in there without a jacket.  It's flipping cold.  I know blah blah warm up the car.  Stick a blanket on them.  What about the rule that we aren't to put a blanket on our infants?  We had that rule too. 

 

Yeah, and some kids won't wear blankets etc. etc.  ;)

 

I agree, my car seats were really difficult to figure out at first.  I like to think I'm not stupid.  Here's a confession:  it was so hard to install them that I didn't finish doing it before I drove to the airport to get my kids.  On the way home it was too dark in the car and it was midnight and we were all so stinkin tired that I gave up and drove home without attaching the second car seat.  Yep, that's how I embarked on motherhood.

[Desert Strawberry]

Right.  I had my kids in rear-facing 5pt harness seats at age 2, but if I had to transport them without the seats for some reason, putting a seatbelt on would still go a long way toward protecting them in a crash.

 

And putting them in a booster would be better still, and 5-point in a coat with the straps done right would be better still.  And all that without a coat would be better still.  But the difference between the last two would be negligible statistically.

 

I agree that we provide the best level of safety that we can, given our personal knowledge and ability. ANd there are degrees of safety. 

 

However, You are making some inaccurate assumptions and presenting them as fact. 

This is a 3yo child who was sitting in a booster with an adult seatbelt. As far as I can see, she is normal size, healthy, no extenuating circumstances. She was ejected from her seatbelt and died. Her 7yo sister was sitting next to her and was fine. 

 

So, no. A booster or a seatbelt is not adequate for a smaller child and does not provide protection.

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Desert Strawberry

[Anne]

I have not read the other responses, but there was a local accident recently in which a car carrying a toddler (18-24 mos) old was hit. The child was properly belted in a properly installed car seat. The crash ripped out the seat belt, and the car seat went flying. Thankfully, the child remained fastened in her car seat and escaped with only a broken arm and cuts and bruises. It could have been SO much worse! And had she been wearing a bulky winter coat under the car seat restraint, she would definitely have been separated from the car seat.

 

I never quite grasped why avoiding bulky coats under the restraints was so important before, but seeing the pictures of that car seat by itself on the highway..... I"m a believer now!!

 

Anne

[Desert Strawberry]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I live in a warm place. This just isn't a big deal to us. No puffy coats here. 

I am always baffled at the lax attitude some parents have about car seats. In Louisiana, I don't know that I EVER saw a child properly strapped into a well-fitting, appropriately sized, properly installed car seat. It was truly astonishing. 

One thing that strikes me that after a child dies, EVERY SINGLE PARENT says something like, "If anyone had told me, I would have done it. I had no idea."

I call BS. Every car seat comes with instructions on correct installation. Every parenting magazine has article after article after article. Every parenting website and endless memes warn about the hazards of improper restraints. Where are these parents living that they NEVER stumble across any of this information?

And then there are these threads, where basically many posters are saying, "Meh. Whatever. Don't care." So yeah. I guess there's that attitude right here. No amount of information can convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. 

 

[SKL]

I agree that we provide the best level of safety that we can, given our personal knowledge and ability. ANd there are degrees of safety. 

 

However, You are making some inaccurate assumptions and presenting them as fact. 

This is a 3yo child who was sitting in a booster with an adult seatbelt. As far as I can see, she is normal size, healthy, no extenuating circumstances. She was ejected from her seatbelt and died. Her 7yo sister was sitting next to her and was fine. 

So, no. A booster or a seatbelt is not adequate for a smaller child and does not provide protection.

 

 

Yes it does provide some protection.

 

While this child and some other kids have tragically died, that type of restraint is still better than nothing.  There are kids who have been protected from death and injury by less-than-ideal restraints.

 

Are you arguing that putting a 3yo in a booster or seat belt is just as bad as leaving them unrestrained all together?  Because if not, I don't understand all the push back.

[Desert Strawberry]

I think wee babies flying out of rear-facing car seats is the biggest risk.

 

I think the Powers that Be could do a better job of educating the public about how the straps are supposed to be worn, as this would greatly reduce the risk for all kids in all temperatures.

 

When my kids were a year old, I got a flat on the freeway and a cop stopped to help me.  My kids were in the car, and this was before I really knew how the straps were supposed to go.  It would have been nice if the cop had been trained in these things and could tell me gently what I was doing wrong, since he was hanging out with me anyway.

 

 

Common misconception. It's actually 3 and 4yos who are at the biggest risk because while everyone knows that infants should be in rear-facing seats, 3 and 4 yos are often considered "big kids" who are no longer in need of protection. They should AT LEAST be in a 5 pt harness and if they are small, they should still be rear-facing. Gemini was 4.5 before I turned him forward, and that was because I needed to install Luna's seat, not because he was too big to be rear facing still. 3s and 4s are still too small to even be held in by a booster seat. They become projectiles. 

And yet, if you do a quick search of parenting boards, there are plenty of parents who are advocating for adult seat belts only for these little ones, essentially offering them no protection at all. 

http://carseatblog.com/24432/why-3-year-olds-have-no-business-riding-in-booster-seats/

 

Disclosure: When I was 19, I put my 4 mo nephew in a forward facing car seat. When Sagg was 2, he hit the weight limit for ALL 5 pt harnesses on the market ( except one, made for special needs kids and priced WAY out of our range). I put him in the smallest booster I could find ( no longer being made) and moved him back into a 5pt when it became available. 

We all make mistakes. I don't judge unless the attitude shifts from "I'm doing my best" to "That's unnecessary. I'll take my chances." Still none of my business. If you accept a higher level of risk for your kids, I wish you well. 

[SKL]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I live in a warm place. This just isn't a big deal to us. No puffy coats here. 

 

I am always baffled at the lax attitude some parents have about car seats. In Louisiana, I don't know that I EVER saw a child properly strapped into a well-fitting, appropriately sized, properly installed car seat. It was truly astonishing. 

 

One thing that strikes me that after a child dies, EVERY SINGLE PARENT says something like, "If anyone had told me, I would have done it. I had no idea."

 

I call BS. Every car seat comes with instructions on correct installation. Every parenting magazine has article after article after article. Every parenting website and endless memes warn about the hazards of improper restraints. Where are these parents living that they NEVER stumble across any of this information?

 

And then there are these threads, where basically many posters are saying, "Meh. Whatever. Don't care." So yeah. I guess there's that attitude right here. No amount of information can convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. 

 

 

 

Not every parent reads parenting magazines.  I sure don't.  Not every parent hangs on parenting sites.  Most parenting sites are pretty obnoxious and when they do post stuff about this, the title of the post is usually something like "10 things you are doing wrong" and half of the comments are "if you loved your kids like I love mine ...."

 

As has been mentioned, car seat installation manuals are horrible.  Or at least, they used to be when I got mine.  Maybe that has improved.

 

I truly didn't know how to put the straps and the chest clip until my kids were a little older.   Call me whatever name you want, I'm just telling it like it is.  And I actually had to pass a lot of tests to become a parent.  :P

[SKL]

Common misconception. It's actually 3 and 4yos who are at the biggest risk because while everyone knows that infants should be in rear-facing seats, 3 and 4 yos are often considered "big kids" who are no longer in need of protection. They should AT LEAST be in a 5 pt harness and if they are small, they should still be rear-facing. Gemini was 4.5 before I turned him forward, and that was because I needed to install Luna's seat, not because he was too big to be rear facing still. 3s and 4s are still too small to even be held in by a booster seat. They become projectiles. 

And yet, if you do a quick search of parenting boards, there are plenty of parents who are advocating for adult seat belts only for these little ones, essentially offering them no protection at all. 

http://carseatblog.com/24432/why-3-year-olds-have-no-business-riding-in-booster-seats/

 

Disclosure: When I was 19, I put my 4 mo nephew in a forward facing car seat. When Sagg was 2, he hit the weight limit for ALL 5 pt harnesses on the market ( except one, made for special needs kids and priced WAY out of our range). I put him in the smallest booster I could find ( no longer being made) and moved him back into a 5pt when it became available. 

We all make mistakes. I don't judge unless the attitude shifts from "I'm doing my best" to "That's unnecessary. I'll take my chances." Still none of my business. If you accept a higher level of risk for your kids, I wish you well. 

 

Do you have statistics?  Are you saying 3yo and 4yo are most likely to fly out of the straps because of thick coats, or just more likely to be injured in general?

 

I think the rear-facing wee babies are at risk of flying out (if in a puffy outer garment and loose straps) because there is little resistance to them flying forward if there is a head-on collision.  An older kid in a front-facing car seat or booster has the protection of his bent legs under with the lap belt to prevent him from flying out of the seat (assuming the seat belt doesn't open or break).

 

[SKL]

And yet, if you do a quick search of parenting boards, there are plenty of parents who are advocating for adult seat belts only for these little ones, essentially offering them no protection at all. 

http://carseatblog.com/24432/why-3-year-olds-have-no-business-riding-in-booster-seats/

 

 

I might be misreading your point, but that linked article doesn't advocate for adult seat belts, it is advocating for a baby seat with a 5-point harness for 3yos.  Was it a comment you saw that argued for adult seat belts?

 

[MistyMountain]

I have not read the other responses, but there was a local accident recently in which a car carrying a toddler (18-24 mos) old was hit. The child was properly belted in a properly installed car seat. The crash ripped out the seat belt, and the car seat went flying. Thankfully, the child remained fastened in her car seat and escaped with only a broken arm and cuts and bruises. It could have been SO much worse! And had she been wearing a bulky winter coat under the car seat restraint, she would definitely have been separated from the car seat.

 

I never quite grasped why avoiding bulky coats under the restraints was so important before, but seeing the pictures of that car seat by itself on the highway..... I"m a believer now!!

 

Anne

.

 

I was going to mention this accident. The accident was horrific and there is no way she would have survived if she was not buckled in that seat correctly with a bulky winter coat. I also noticed what good side impact protection that seat had.

 

Wee babies are not the most at risk. Kids in rear facing seats take less of an impact then foward facing ones.

Edited January 18, 2016 by MistyMountain

[SKL]

OK well, I've seen the crash videos of rear-facing infants in puffy outerclothes and not-snug-enough straps.  The "baby" went flying in a head-on collision as there was nothing holding it back.  Now I can't find that video though.

 

I know all the reasons to rear-face infants.

[Carrie12345]

No, I don't think it is a "serious problem," but it can make a difference depending on how the child is sitting in the car seat.

 

A parent should give it some thought and ask himself whether his child has any chance of flying out of the seat even with loose straps.  If a child is tiny and rear-facing, this could happen.  It would be physically impossible for most children to fly out, unless the straps broke or their legs popped off.

 

It's actually NOT difficult to fly out if the straps aren't tight enough. Chest clips aren't made to withstand a high impact crash, so the tightness of the straps really is the only thing a child has to keep them restrained.'

 

I really like the PSA going around that says, if you wouldn't turn the seat upside down over your head and shake it with your child in it, don't drive with your child in it.

[Carrie12345]

 

Disclosure: When I was 19, I put my 4 mo nephew in a forward facing car seat. When Sagg was 2, he hit the weight limit for ALL 5 pt harnesses on the market ( except one, made for special needs kids and priced WAY out of our range). I put him in the smallest booster I could find ( no longer being made) and moved him back into a 5pt when it became available. 

We all make mistakes. I don't judge unless the attitude shifts from "I'm doing my best" to "That's unnecessary. I'll take my chances." Still none of my business. If you accept a higher level of risk for your kids, I wish you well. 

Yup.

 

 

I knew much more when my 5yo was born than when my 17yo was born. I don't beat myself up over the things I didn't know, but I don't risk my later kids just because the earlier ones came out alive.

[Guest]

We don't make our kids take off their snow coats for their car seats and boosters. If we were garage parked then maaaaybe. But we also tend to layer and not wear the lofty, bulky stuff. Their car seats are also extremely tightly threaded and we fit the straps for when there is no coat on, some must compress the heck out of the coats to get them fastened when they *are* on.

 

I'm more worried about my inlaws, who always loosen those strap settings when buckling the kids. They're tight for a reason, people!

[KungFuPanda]

Do they still have cars with built in seats? I had one when my kids were little. I never had to worry about installation because it was part of the car. That thing was easy and simple to adjust. I'm not even sure the chest clip unclipped. I think it just slid up and down and you put it over their head then slid it into place. The shoulder placement had several levels and it fit my kids when they were out of the infant car seat until they were 5 or 6.

 

I might be considered a death trap now, but it certainly wouldn't fly out of the car because it WAS the seat of the car.

[Desert Strawberry]

Do they still have cars with built in seats? I had one when my kids were little. I never had to worry about installation because it was part of the car. That thing was easy and simple to adjust. I'm not even sure the chest clip unclipped. I think it just slid up and down and you put it over their head then slid it into place. The shoulder placement had several levels and it fit my kids when they were out of the infant car seat until they were 5 or 6.

 

I might be considered a death trap now, but it certainly wouldn't fly out of the car because it WAS the seat of the car.

I don't think they are available in new vehicles anymore. There were concerns about the seats expiring, but still being used. 

This is what I used for Sagg. they were lovely seats, easy to use, safe, convenient, with high weight limits and accomodating tall children. Our van had been a rental before we bought it. Such a good idea for rentals. 

Gem used a built in seat-not the same kind-in a church van type vehicle used by his day camp. He and Aries had brought up that he was still so small ( 35 pounds, 37 inches tall) and I was concerned about his safety on outings. They strapped him in :) But that was a special needs type seat with just a different kind of seatbelt on a regular seat. 

[heartlikealion]

I've heard about this several times and I make it a point to keep the baby in lighter clothing. She has a hoodie and has a pull over sweatshirt, but I don't even really like those on under the straps. I often put that stuff on after unbuckling.

[December]

This article interviews a cold weather survival expert that disagrees with the no coats recommendation.  Just thought it was an interesting perspective.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/12/18/whats-more-dangerous-for-your-child-in-a-car-seat-a-coat-or-the-cold/

Edited January 19, 2016 by December

[LucyStoner]

The weight minimum on that thing is 22 pounds. So that's not going to work for an infant.

 

I know there are some lower priced ones, but I've never seen one for $30.

That seat is now 22-40 pounds forward facing but starts as rear facing for 5-35 pounds. So yes, you can use it for an infant. It's the cheapest car seat on the market but it gets the job done. I used to buy them by the dozens for work at a family services agency.

[Carrie12345]

This article interviews a cold weather survival expert that disagrees with the no coats recommendation.  Just thought it was an interesting perspective.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/12/18/whats-more-dangerous-for-your-child-in-a-car-seat-a-coat-or-the-cold/

 

I do believe this is a valid concern for people traveling in very rural areas.  Being semi-rural with a low percentage of dangerously cold days, I am comfortable hedging my bets against the more statistically likely scenarios.

 

One other consideration is that bundling small children in cars as if they were staying outside does carry a very real risk of overheating.  This did not occur to me until I took my then-infant niece in her bucket seat, with blankets and hat and woolly seat cover, for what was going to be a longish drive.  Not 10 minutes in, I had to pull over to tend to her intense screaming.  The poor child was sweating so badly it was terrifying.  I never factored in how hot she would get once the heat got going.  

[Runningmom80]

I bought my kids thinsulate coats because of this but now I wonder if even those are too bulky. We used to do fleece but they were always cold.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Runningmom80

[SKL]

This article interviews a cold weather survival expert that disagrees with the no coats recommendation.  Just thought it was an interesting perspective.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/12/18/whats-more-dangerous-for-your-child-in-a-car-seat-a-coat-or-the-cold/

 

That's exactly the vision I used to have of going into a ditch on my way to/from my parents' house.  They live in a rural village in the snow belt.  It is a real possibility.  As I said, I've been in the ditch enough times to know.  Another time I was rear-ended by a semi who slipped on a patch of ice.  My windows were busted, I was in shock.  I looked for my coffee cup but it had disappeared.  That was before the days of cell phones, but I know it could be impossible to find a cell phone in that situation.  And even if I found one ... sometimes in a blizzard, you don't know exactly where you are along the freeway, and even if you do, it could be a long time before someone is able to get you out of there.  You can't see to walk to the nearest farmhouse.  This is serious stuff.  Having a baby hanging in a car seat exposed to the cold was a real concern.  Having a coat or blanket that could have been thrown elsewhere in the car (or out of it) wasn't a comforting thought.

[Desert Strawberry]

Not every parent reads parenting magazines.  I sure don't.  Not every parent hangs on parenting sites.  Most parenting sites are pretty obnoxious and when they do post stuff about this, the title of the post is usually something like "10 things you are doing wrong" and half of the comments are "if you loved your kids like I love mine ...."

 

As has been mentioned, car seat installation manuals are horrible.  Or at least, they used to be when I got mine.  Maybe that has improved.

 

I truly didn't know how to put the straps and the chest clip until my kids were a little older.   Call me whatever name you want, I'm just telling it like it is.  And I actually had to pass a lot of tests to become a parent.  :p

I'm only quoting one post, but consider this a response to all of them. 

 

I'm not arguing or calling names. I'm not singling you out. I'm just sharing some information. You clearly aren't interested, and that's fine. It's your choice not to seek information or to deny that which is presented to you. Your children are yours. You decide the level of safety you are comfortable with and embrace it. 

 

There are other people in this conversation who might be interested in being more informed. It is to them that I am really speaking. 

 

Not everything is a personal attack. You can undig your heels a little. I'm not trying to best you. There are no winners in this argument. The only losers are the kids who's lives and health were lost in providing those statistics we all depend on in making these choices. It's not about defending a position. It's about sharing information to help parents-all parents. Your girl are still booster-seat-age, so don't count yourself out here-make better, more informed choices. I don't especially care what those choices are. Your kids, your choice. But when parents bemoan a lack of knowledge, that IS a problem. And one that I can help with, in a small way. 

[SKL]

When you say "I call BS" on bereaved parents who said they didn't know the right way to use the straps, and on others who agree that is realistic, you are the one not wanting to listen.

 

There aren't a lot of kids dying in car accidents for this reason, but if we want the number to decrease, we need to meet parents where they are and not judge them for not being where we think they should be.  Awareness is far from universal, so we need to re-think how to get the important messages out.

[Desert Strawberry]

When you say "I call BS" on bereaved parents who said they didn't know the right way to use the straps, and on others who agree that is realistic, you are the one not wanting to listen.

 

There aren't a lot of kids dying in car accidents for this reason, but if we want the number to decrease, we need to meet parents where they are and not judge them for not being where we think they should be.  Awareness is far from universal, so we need to re-think how to get the important messages out.

 

You described actively avoiding this information "I don't read parenting magazines". Really, never even flipped through one in the doctor's waiting room? Okey doke. Don't like the tone of articles listing car seat errors, so you don't read them? Fine. But what you are describing here is WILLFUL ignorance. And that's fine. Ignorance is bliss and all that. If you are happy to roll the dice, and that gives you peace, good for you. But if something tragic happens because of the information you didn't want, whose fault is that?

 

I disagree that a lot of kids aren't dying in car accidents. Less, definitely. And hopefully fewer serious injuries as well. The number one killer of children in the US is unintentional injury (after the first year, when congenital defects, prematurity, and SIDS take more lives, in that order). A large percentage of those accidents are from "Road traffic accidents". The over all number may not be huge, but if there's anything we SHOULD be protecting our kids from, this is it, yes? Not to mention the nonfatal, but life-altering injuries not included in that number. 

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2013-a.gif

 

 

ETA: I do hear what you are saying. Let's make the information available. Let's not judge other moms. I get that. I am never mean or pushy or judgy with other moms. Really. I never read the comments on parenting posts because they tend to be full of sanctimony and bluster. That never helped anyone. 

My point was only that information is EVERYWHERE. If you have a baby, you would have to actively avoid this information. And many parents do, just like here. "Hey, it looks like it's safer to not use a coat in the carseat."

"No way, that's ridiculous, I can't possibly, too much time, too much trouble,when my kids were little, they didn't even HAVE seats and they are FINE, etc etc etc."

And of course, not just here, or even especially here. On every carseat article ever posted there are equal numbers of comments ridiculing the use of carseats as there are those judging the ones who don't. 

So the question is, how? How do we share the information with people who don't seem interested? If you, personally, avoid all parenting magazines, memes, social media in general (if I recall correctly), and parenting websites, how DID you get this and other necessary info? 

To me it seems there are equal cries of "Don't tell me I'm wrong!" and "Why didn't anyone tell me?" You really can't have both.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Desert Strawberry

[SKL]

You described actively avoiding this information "I don't read parenting magazines". Really, never even flipped through one in the doctor's waiting room? Okey doke. Don't like the tone of articles listing car seat errors, so you don't read them? Fine. But what you are describing here is WILLFUL ignorance. And that's fine. Ignorance is bliss and all that. If you are happy to roll the dice, and that gives you peace, good for you. But if something tragic happens because of the information you didn't want, whose fault is that?

 

I disagree that a lot of kids aren't dying in car accidents. Less, definitely. And hopefully fewer serious injuries as well. The number one killer of children in the US is unintentional injury (after the first year, when congenital defects, prematurity, and SIDS take more lives, in that order). A large percentage of those accidents are from "Road traffic accidents". The over all number may not be huge, but if there's anything we SHOULD be protecting our kids from, this is it, yes? Not to mention the nonfatal, but life-altering injuries not included in that number. 

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2013-a.gif

 

 

ETA: I do hear what you are saying. Let's make the information available. Let's not judge other moms. I get that. I am never mean or pushy or judgy with other moms. Really. I never read the comments on parenting posts because they tend to be full of sanctimony and bluster. That never helped anyone. 

My point was only that information is EVERYWHERE. If you have a baby, you would have to actively avoid this information. And many parents do, just like here. "Hey, it looks like it's safer to not use a coat in the carseat."

"No way, that's ridiculous, I can't possibly, too much time, too much trouble,when my kids were little, they didn't even HAVE seats and they are FINE, etc etc etc."

And of course, not just here, or even especially here. On every carseat article ever posted there are equal numbers of comments ridiculing the use of carseats as there are those judging the ones who don't. 

So the question is, how? How do we share the information with people who don't seem interested? If you, personally, avoid all parenting magazines, memes, social media in general (if I recall correctly), and parenting websites, how DID you get this and other necessary info? 

To me it seems there are equal cries of "Don't tell me I'm wrong!" and "Why didn't anyone tell me?" You really can't have both.

 

First of all, I listened to the information when I heard it, took it in, added it to the information I already had.  I also did serious web research the first time I saw an article about this stuff.  The articles tend to play on emotions and to lack objective information, so objective research is my personal preferred source once an issue is raised.  However, if I have never heard of a concern in the first place, and it wasn't obvious to me, I obviously won't go digging in the CDC database for it.

 

Your comment that my not reading parenting magazines equals willful ignorance of all important safety issues is ... idk ... IME parenting magazines are mostly advertisements, craft ideas for people with nothing better to do, and mommy wars.  I have a lot of other things to do besides read that.  I don't subscribe to them.  I don't go online looking for them.  I don't go to doctors that have parenting magazines in their lobbies.  That isn't the same as me running away from information that is right in my face.  The fact is that parenting magazines and websites are not reaching everyone.  You yourself said that lots of people assert they did not know about these concerns.  I'm telling you, they are telling you, the statistics are telling you that people are in fact not receiving these messages.  Perhaps you think the solution is to shame everyone into reading parenting magazines and websites.  I disagree.  There are other ways to inform the public of real risks.

 

I suppose that news article linked in the OP attempted to do so, but it failed because it used a ridiculous example, played on exaggerated emotions, didn't give objective information, and didn't even show "this is how you are supposed to position straps and clips" until long after it lost much of its intended audience.

 

You assume that because I am objective about the size of the risk here, I must have really unsafe kids.  Not so.  My kids were very much on the older side when I switched from RF and 5 pt harnesses, I was careful about straps once I knew the correct way, from age 2 or 3 they usually didn't wear coats in the car, they are still in boosters at age 9.  I do what makes sense to me after weighing the objective risks.  But that doesn't change the fact that all these things really make only a very tiny difference.  I am not going to pat myself on the back like I'm saving my kids from certain death every time they get into the car.  And I'm not going to accuse others of not caring for their kids if they don't do everything my way.  Everyone has their unique challenges with their kids.  I am in favor of providing objective info and trusting parents to use it intelligently.

[matrips]

When my three were little, we had them wear their fleece jackets in the car. Brought the heavier ones with us.

[lauraw4321]

Haven't read responses.

 

I live in AL - few very cold days.  My kids do not wear their coats in their carseats.  We pretty much leave them in the car, and just put them on if we park far from wherever we're going.