A cautionary tale for the introverts amongst us

[Laura Corin]

My mother is moving to be close to me, selling her house and moving into rented accommodation. Like me, she's an introvert.  She has worked hard to isolate herself over the last few decades.  She has no friends, and only has a relationship with one neighbour.  She has no hobbies and belongs to no organisations.  I don't have a problem with any of this - it's her choice and she has designed her life like that.

 

However: now she needs two references in order to rent.  She has owned her own home and has not worked for decades.   Her neighbour will give her a reference, but I can think of literally no-one else.  She hasn't had a consistent doctor, has not seen a lawyer in years, does not go to church.

 

I hope that the landlords will consider one character reference plus sight of her bank statement.  I'm at a loss, otherwise.

[MerryAtHope]

Will they let a family member such as yourself be the second reference?

[shage]

Can you be a reference? 

[Laura Corin]

Will they let a family member such as yourself be the second reference?

 

I really don't know.  They talked about a 'character reference' - I would think that a family member would be odd for that.  I am getting a standard reference letter from my own employer in case that helps - the landlords know that I will be taking responsibility for her.

[Lawana]

That is terribly isolated. I would have to fight that tendency in myself, so I can sympathize. On the other hand, my MIL lived with us for the last 11 years of her life, and died in our home. It was incredibly sad that she had no one other than immediate family. I vowed to not let that happen to me.

[MerryAtHope]

I really don't know.  They talked about a 'character reference' - I would think that a family member would be odd for that.  I am getting a standard reference letter from my own employer in case that helps - the landlords know that I will be taking responsibility for her.

 

Might be odd, but without any other possibilities, it might be better than nothing. 

[Lara in Colo]

I would think that a letter from the mortgage company would be a good reference (that she hasn't missed a payment ) and a statement about the condition of the home she sold being in good condition--- it is possible to get those?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Weird.  I've never been asked for a reference to rent.  Here they tend to do financial and criminal background checks. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

That is terribly isolated. I would have to fight that tendency in myself, so I can sympathize. On the other hand, my MIL lived with us for the last 11 years of her life, and died in our home. It was incredibly sad that she had no one other than immediate family. I vowed to not let that happen to me.

 

My mum just doesn't like people much, so as far as she's concerned, it's been fine.  

[Garga]

Well, at least the landlord wouldn't have to worry about wild parties. :)

 

I'd write the other letter and simply explain that she lives a quiet life and doesn't socialize.

[Laura Corin]

I would think that a letter from the mortgage company would be a good reference (that she hasn't missed a payment ) and a statement about the condition of the home she sold being in good condition--- it is possible to get those?

 

She bought the house with cash thirty years ago (inheritance from her mother) so there's no mortgage payment.  The house is barely habitable - she hasn't done any maintenance - so it's not the kind of example you would want to show to a landlord.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What if you explain the situation and offer to pay for a criminal background check?  If that's possible. 

That's got to count for something.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Kind of dumb though.  Who would ask someone to write something for them if they thought the person wouldn't say something positive? 

 

I'll write a recommendation for her.  Your mother and I go way back.  :lol:

[Laura Corin]

 

I'll write a recommendation for her.  Your mother and I go way back.  :lol:

 

The stories you could tell.....

 

I think they want references from upstanding members of the community who might not be willing to risk their positions by being known to lie.  

[Annie G]

Around here landlords (and job applications) ask for references but rarely contact them.  But since they want two, how about your husband? He can say how long he's known her, etc. 

 

 

[Guest]

 

I think they want references from upstanding members of the community who might not be willing to risk their positions by being known to lie.  

 

^^ This is adorable. It's exactly how I picture English countryside communities.

 

---

 

Very salient point about isolation!

[SparklyUnicorn]

The stories you could tell.....

 

I think they want references from upstanding members of the community who might not be willing to risk their positions by being known to lie.  

 

Geesh a bit much.

 

 

Well your mother and I have been in the same Introverts United Club for many years.  We unite separately in our own homes on a regular basis.  As a card carrying member and president of the club I wouldn't want to ruin my rep.  She is an upstanding member of the club and takes introversion very seriously.  She has a level of dedication towards the cause of introversion I have yet to find in some of the greatest introverts of all time. 

[Laura Corin]

Geesh a bit much.

 

 

I didn't mean that you weren't an upstanding member of the community....  Two thoughts in my head at the same time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't mean that you weren't an upstanding member of the community....  Two thoughts in my head at the same time.

 

LMAO

I didn't take it that way.  I mean a bit much that they require that sort of reference. 

[happypamama]

Has she seen a hair dresser regularly? Or had a cleaning lady? Does she frequent a shop where someone might know her even a little?

[Laura Corin]

Has she seen a hair dresser regularly? Or had a cleaning lady? Does she frequent a shop where someone might know her even a little?

She cuts her own hair.  I don't think the house had been cleaned (beyond the kitchen and bathroom) since 1980.  There is a shop where she used to buy milk and a newspaper, but I don't know if they know her at all.  I'll have a think - thanks.

[TrixieB]

Does she have a second neighbor who could be a reference?  Her banker?  Librarian? 

[Arcadia]

Can you be the guarantor for rent? My uncle was the guarantor for his late dad (granduncle) since his dad was an odd job labourer with no fixed income and no pension scheme.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Can you be the guarantor for rent? My uncle was the guarantor for his late dad (granduncle) since his dad was an odd job labourer with no fixed income and no pension scheme.

 

I had the same thought.

[Laura Corin]

Does she have a second neighbor who could be a reference?  Her banker?  Librarian? 

 

As she doesn't like people much, she didn't have a relationship with anyone else on the street; I don't believe that she knows anyone at the bank - she just used to deposit money there.  She used to pick up her State pension at a small Post Office, but that closed down, and I don't know where the people are.  She hasn't used a library in years (she mostly reads the newspaper these days).  Thanks for the ideas.

[Laura Corin]

Can you be the guarantor for rent? My uncle was the guarantor for his late dad (granduncle) since his dad was an odd job labourer with no fixed income and no pension scheme.

 

Good idea - I'll ask.

 

ETA: but I don't think it's the money so much - she has savings that would pay the rent for the rest of her life.  I think that it's more that they want to get the idea that she won't trash the place.  She won't do that deliberately, and I'll be here to make sure she doesn't do it by neglect.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Laura Corin

[Lisa R.]

Laura, you say she doesn't like people. So, is she happy having lived like this? It is difficult for me to imagine that someone this isolated isn't lonely. This seems like "introvert" isn't the correct label.

 

I think you posted this more as a warning for people who aren't social rather than a way for your mom to get another reference. It think it really is something to ponder, particularly as people get older.

[trulycrabby]

Laura, I think they will accept you as a character reference.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Laura, you say she doesn't like people. So, is she happy having lived like this? It is difficult for me to imagine that someone this isolated isn't lonely. This seems like "introvert" isn't the correct label.

 

I think you posted this more as a warning for people who aren't social rather than a way for your mom to get another reference. It think it really is something to ponder, particularly as people get older.

 

Do you consider yourself an introvert?

[Jyhwkmama]

She cuts her own hair.  I don't think the house had been cleaned (beyond the kitchen and bathroom) since 1980.  There is a shop where she used to buy milk and a newspaper, but I don't know if they know her at all.  I'll have a think - thanks.

 

No cleaning at all (like vacuuming)? Is it possible then that she wouldn't make a very good renter? Is she going to get a home helper in her new place?

[Jyhwkmama]

Good idea - I'll ask.

 

ETA: but I don't think it's the money so much - she has savings that would pay the rent for the rest of her life.  I think that it's more that they want to get the idea that she won't trash the place.  She won't do that deliberately, and I'll be here to make sure she doesn't do it by neglect.

 

 

Cross posted. Glad you will be helping her out.

[forty-two]

Laura, you say she doesn't like people. So, is she happy having lived like this? It is difficult for me to imagine that someone this isolated isn't lonely. This seems like "introvert" isn't the correct label.

 

I think you posted this more as a warning for people who aren't social rather than a way for your mom to get another reference. It think it really is something to ponder, particularly as people get older.

 

 

Do you consider yourself an introvert?

 

Different poster, but I'm quite introverted, and I was never that isolated except when I was seriously depressed.  I'm generally happy on my own, but I only start actively avoiding social situations and going full-on hermit when depressed.  (It's something I have to watch for - when I start dreading going places in general, it's a sign that I'm slipping into depression.  And *because* I'm an introvert, it's easy to not notice the change until I wake up one day and realize I forgot what it was like to ever want to leave the house.) 

 

(I also completely and utterly neglected keeping up my home/dorm-room/apt while depressed, too.  I've never been a great housekeeper, and my living spaces have always been dusty and in a state of cheerful clutteredness, so I didn't realize how *drastic* the change was till I came out of my depressed fog and realized how *huge* the different is between "hardly cleans (but sorta kinda keeps things up)" and "never cleans, never keeps anything up".)

 

I still don't have any close friends outside the family, though.  If it weren't for our church, and the visibility that comes with dh being a pastor, I'd have a rough time getting references myself.  It's something to think about.

Edited December 28, 2015 by forty-two

[SparklyUnicorn]

Different poster, but I'm quite introverted, and I was never that isolated except when I was seriously depressed.  I'm generally happy on my own, but I only start actively avoiding social situations and going full-on hermit when depressed.  (It's something I have to watch for - when I start dreading going places in general, it's a sign that I'm slipping into depression.  And *because* I'm an introvert, it's easy to not notice the change until I wake up one day and realize I forgot what it was like to ever want to leave the house.) 

 

(I also completely and utterly neglected keeping up my home/dorm-room/apt while depressed, too.  I've never been a great housekeeper, and my living spaces have always been dusty and in a state of cheerful clutteredness, so I didn't realize how *drastic* the change was till I came out of my depressed fog and realized how *huge* the different is between "hardly cleans (but sorta kinda keeps things up)" and "never cleans, never keeps anything up".)

 

I still don't have any close friends outside the family, though.  If it weren't for our church, and the visibility that comes with dh being a pastor, I'd have a rough time getting references myself.  It's something to think about.

 

I guess my objection is to the insinuation that she was/is unhappy living like that.  That is not necessarily the case. 

 

It is indeed extreme and unusual, but I would not necessarily say it means she is mentally ill.  I've had people insinuate that surely I'm not happy if I'm an introvert. 

 

I would say the statement of having no hobbies or interests is more telling than the introversion. 

[chiguirre]

Well, at least the landlord wouldn't have to worry about wild parties. :)

 

I'd write the other letter and simply explain that she lives a quiet life and doesn't socialize.

 

In this case, I would write a letter implying as much as possible without flat out lying that your mother is not physically capable of getting out on her own much and that you will be helping her out. Then, send in your references. That will make her lack of references less weird and should settle the landlord's doubts.

[Mimm]

My brother had this issue when he joined the Air Force. He needed references and lived a terribly isolated life and knew almost no one that wasn't family. And the Air Force actually calls your references. :) (He got in and is married and has a social life now.)

[Alicia64]

Weird.  I've never been asked for a reference to rent.  Here they tend to do financial and criminal background checks. 

 

Same here. Nobody has ever asked for a character reference.

 

Probably because they're easily faked up whereas financial and criminal tend to be black and white.

 

Alley

[DragonFaerie]

Good idea - I'll ask.

 

ETA: but I don't think it's the money so much - she has savings that would pay the rent for the rest of her life.  I think that it's more that they want to get the idea that she won't trash the place.  She won't do that deliberately, and I'll be here to make sure she doesn't do it by neglect.

 

If that's the concern, and your mother clearly has the money, perhaps the new landlord would accept a larger security deposit in lieu of a second reference.

[amy g.]

I must not be a very honest person. I'd just ask one of my own friends,"Hey would you write a letter of reference for my mom? We need a non family member. Here, let me tell you what to say."

 

Problem solved.

[Laura Corin]

I guess my objection is to the insinuation that she was/is unhappy living like that.  That is not necessarily the case. 

 

It is indeed extreme and unusual, but I would not necessarily say it means she is mentally ill.  I've had people insinuate that surely I'm not happy if I'm an introvert. 

 

I would say the statement of having no hobbies or interests is more telling than the introversion. 

 

I think that in her case there is a combination of factors.  She never had many friends and has been less interested in dealing with people as she has become older, starting from middle age.    She didn't work outside the home after she married, so was not forced into social situations.  Her major hobbies were gardening and reading, but she doesn't have the strength for the former or the attention span for the latter these days.  

 

She never cleaned much - I have fond memories of lying on my front on the carpet as a child watching woodlice battle through the dust.  She had a mother who made cleaning house an unattainable badge of worth and tied it in so much guilt that I think Mum just rejected the whole premise.  Until recently, her kitchen and bathroom were reasonably hygienic.

 

She has also had episodes of depression in the past that she recognises, but most of the time she has been perfectly functional, just a bit unusual.

 

I can see getting isolated if I didn't work at avoiding it.  I have never lived alone, but a few times when I was alone in the house for a few days, I could feel it harder to get out and deal with the world as each day passed.  I don't suffer from mental illness.

[Starr]

I think you could write a reference and state you will be seeing to the care of her apartment. Then they can get a reference on you. 

[Lisa R.]

I guess my objection is to the insinuation that she was/is unhappy living like that. That is not necessarily the case.

 

It is indeed extreme and unusual, but I would not necessarily say it means she is mentally ill. I've had people insinuate that surely I'm not happy if I'm an introvert.

 

I would say the statement of having no hobbies or interests is more telling than the introversion.

I don't see where anyone suggested she was mentally ill for the way she chose to live. My question was wondering if this was something driven by more than just introversion.

 

I know lots of introverts and while I enjoy being around friends, I definitely recharge by myself. I must say that for someone to isolate themselves from everyone but their one child is not typical of most introverts. I appreciate the caution the OP is giving as I think people can have a very small social circle that becomes smaller, perhaps non existent, as they get older. It's something to think about. Personally, I think actively disliking people is a sad way to live. I think people like this are missing out on the richness and joy of community. No one is suggesting parties every week, but some sort of involvement is others' lives, at some points during the year, seems healthy.

[Laura Corin]

I don't see where anyone suggested she was mentally ill for the way she chose to live. My question was wondering if this was something driven by more than just introversion.

 

I know lots of introverts and while I enjoy being around friends, I definitely recharge by myself. I must say that for someone to isolate themselves from everyone but their one child is not typical of most introverts. I appreciate the caution the OP is giving as I think people can have a very small social circle that becomes smaller, perhaps non existent, as they get older. It's something to think about. Personally, I think actively disliking people is a sad way to live. I think people like this are missing out on the richness and joy of community. No one is suggesting parties every week, but some sort of involvement is others' lives, at some points during the year, seems healthy.

 

For the record, I have two brothers who have been visiting Mum regularly while she has been in hospital.  For various reasons, main responsibility for looking after Mum has fallen to me.  That's fine.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see where anyone suggested she was mentally ill for the way she chose to live. My question was wondering if this was something driven by more than just introversion.

 

I know lots of introverts and while I enjoy being around friends, I definitely recharge by myself. I must say that for someone to isolate themselves from everyone but their one child is not typical of most introverts. I appreciate the caution the OP is giving as I think people can have a very small social circle that becomes smaller, perhaps non existent, as they get older. It's something to think about. Personally, I think actively disliking people is a sad way to live. I think people like this are missing out on the richness and joy of community. No one is suggesting parties every week, but some sort of involvement is others' lives, at some points during the year, seems healthy.

 

I have yet to find the richness and joy in community, but ok.

[SparklyUnicorn]

To be fair this is not unusual for older people.  After awhile they literally cannot leave the house.  For example, my husband's grandfather probably didn't leave the house once in the last 10 years of his life.  He couldn't.  All his friends were long gone and dead too.  The only thing left he could sort of do was watch TV except he also could not really hear it so well.  So yes he spent a lot of time just sitting there.

 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I know and converse with only 1 person IRL (about 1X every 6 months or so) who I'm not related to.  That doesn't mean I can't have a nice conversation with strangers or DH's co-workers but day to day I talk to my kids, my husband, my mom, my sisters, my brother, my mom's husband, once in awhile my dad or my Uncle John.  I feel like I have a very full social life, sometimes too much.  I know I'm an introvert but I'm happy, so I guess I'm a member of the club too?

 

ETA:I'd have your DH or a friend of yours write it and lie if needed.  Stupid rules/requirements deserve to be ignored.  But I'm an introverted anarchist so you may want to ignore me.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by foxbridgeacademy

[Lisa R.]

For the record, I have two brothers who have been visiting Mum regularly while she has been in hospital. For various reasons, main responsibility for looking after Mum has fallen to me. That's fine.

This is good. Your mother lived a life on her terms and it worked for her. I'm glad she has family, and I'm sure she appreciates you and your brothers' time and attention.

 

For those that are fine with not having friends or community, I keep thinking about the story my nurse friend told me about her Christmas Day experience on her ICU floor. There were several patients nearing the end of their life alone on Christmas Day. Perhaps they had no children or their children live out of town. At any rate they were alone and had been during their hospital stay, including Christmas Day. And, no, these patients were not ok with this.

 

I guess it's one thing to live a relatively isolated life when one is active. It's an entirely different thing to have an isolated life when one is bedridden or at the end of their days.

 

I appreciate the OP sharing her story.

[Rosie_0801]

To be fair this is not unusual for older people.  After awhile they literally cannot leave the house.  For example, my husband's grandfather probably didn't leave the house once in the last 10 years of his life.  He couldn't.  All his friends were long gone and dead too.  The only thing left he could sort of do was watch TV except he also could not really hear it so well.  So yes he spent a lot of time just sitting there.

 

It takes a really long time to die of boredom. :( My grandmother did too.

[Lisa R.]

I have yet to find the richness and joy in community, but ok.

 

 

Really? You frequent this board. Don't you find some joy in this community? 

 

If so, do you think it's possible to find some people like this IRL?

[Guest]

Different poster, but I'm quite introverted, and I was never that isolated except when I was seriously depressed. I'm generally happy on my own, but I only start actively avoiding social situations and going full-on hermit when depressed. (It's something I have to watch for - when I start dreading going places in general, it's a sign that I'm slipping into depression. And *because* I'm an introvert, it's easy to not notice the change until I wake up one day and realize I forgot what it was like to ever want to leave the house.)

 

(I also completely and utterly neglected keeping up my home/dorm-room/apt while depressed, too. I've never been a great housekeeper, and my living spaces have always been dusty and in a state of cheerful clutteredness, so I didn't realize how *drastic* the change was till I came out of my depressed fog and realized how *huge* the different is between "hardly cleans (but sorta kinda keeps things up)" and "never cleans, never keeps anything up".)

 

I still don't have any close friends outside the family, though. If it weren't for our church, and the visibility that comes with dh being a pastor, I'd have a rough time getting references myself. It's something to think about.

I can relate to this, too. I am an introvert. I can be so content in my comfy little world that I have no felt need to leave the house. I do keep certain things in my life very intentionally because I am well aware that a future like Laura describes could come to pass for myself if I don't make an intentional effort against it.

 

I can also totally relate to not "noticing" depression and anxiety because I don't crave people and activity.