White fragility

[bibiche]

I don't know if this article by Robin DiAngelo has been linked before, but here it is. Reading some things in the "What is a 'microagression'?" thread reminded me of it and I thought people might be interested in reading it.

[Tsuga]

Great points. Terrible overly-academic writing style, sadly, but worth the read anyway. It gives a name to the extremely confusing phenomenon that I often wondered about. 

[bibiche]

Great points. Terrible overly-academic writing style, sadly, but worth the read anyway. It gives a name to the extremely confusing phenomenon that I often wondered about. 

 

Well, it is from the International Journal of Critical Pedagogy.  :tongue_smilie:  She has some other publications that are probably more accessible listed on her website.  I'll have to check out her books.

Edited December 4, 2015 by bibiche

[Little Women]

I've read this before.    

 

It seems to me that being told over and over that if we disagree it proves the opponent's point, that we are inherently oppressive, and that nothing we can ever do will ever change anything, followed by being constantly ranted at over this topic for years, might conceivably lead to people acting a bit stressed about it.    

Edited December 4, 2015 by Little Women

[regentrude]

Read it. Agree that writing style was tedious. She (?) ( is it a lady?) could have gotten her point across on far fewer pages.

Edited December 4, 2015 by regentrude

[bibiche]

Read it. Agree that writing style was tedious. She (?) ( is it a lady?) could have gotten her point across on far fewer pages.

 

I agree. DS is taking a class that requires reading a lot of navel gazy articles and asked after slogging through a particularly trying one "Why don't they just say what they want to say plainly instead of making me read all this gobbledygook? Is this some sort of exclusive PhD club talk? Like they had to suffer so now everyone who wants to read about this has to suffer too?!"  Kid's got a point. :)

[Entropymama]

I agree with all her points about white people being priveleged and not really knowing it, but I'll say a few things in defense of white people, if I may. 

 

First, I think many white people have been told frequently that simply because they are white, they are racist or blind to racism. For example - you're white, therefore you can't possibly understand what minority races deal with. While true, these statements are often made in such a way that puts white people on defense, trying desperately to 'prove' that they aren't racist. There's really no way to 'win' that argument, and the white person ends up feeling vilified. 

 

Second, due to the insulation the author talks about, many white people do feel they've had to struggle to get where they are, and to be told that they are 'over privileged' rubs them the wrong way. If you started out as a minimum wage worker, went to school at night, scrapped and saved and went without, you get a little irritated when people who don't know you claim you got where you are simply by being a white male. 

 

The real problem, in my eyes, is that we too often just talk at each other, rather than actually getting to know people of other races and developing relationships that allow for real dialogue. 

[bibiche]

I've read this before.    

 

It seems to me that being told over and over that if we disagree it proves the opponent's point, that we are inherently oppressive, and that nothing we can ever do will ever change anything, followed by being constantly ranted at over this topic for years, might conceivably lead to people acting a bit stressed about it.    

 

I'm not quite sure what you are referencing. Would you point out what in the article says this so I can try to understand where you are coming from? Because this is not my reading of it at all.  :confused1:

[Tsuga]

Well, it is from the International Journal of Critical Pedagogy.  :tongue_smilie:  She has some other publications that are probably more accessible listed on her website.  I'll have to check out her books.

 

I wouldn't say it's bad or inaccessible, just turgid. 

 

As opposed to, you know, my message board posts which as a body of work form a paragon of succinct, witty and informative narrative on the topic, not in the least hysterical. ;)

[Little Women]

I'm not quite sure what you are referencing. Would you point out what in the article says this so I can try to understand where you are coming from? Because this is not my reading of it at all.  :confused1:

 

Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive because of some of the things said on the microagression thread, as well as some things I've heard elsewhere.    However, here is one example of why I feel she is saying this,

 

"These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium."

 

In other words, it could be that racial defensiveness is manifest by anger or fear, or it could be that a person argues (disagrees) or is simply silent or has a desire to leave the place where they are being accused in this way.    This says that if a person disagrees verbally or is simply silent, they are thereby proving that they are racially defensive.  The only possible answer is to agree that, yes, I'm being racially defensive.   

 

Further, she goes on to say, "White ... fragility and privilege result in responses that function to restore equilibrium and return the resources “lost†via the challenge."  In other words, the overriding motivation for any white persons response is presumed to be a desire to push the non-White person back to a lower status.    There is no acknowledgement that a person may simply disagree with the presumptions or conclusions given and no possibility allowed that a person might agree with some of it but not all.   (Eg, a person might say, "yes, I know that racism does sometimes still exist, but I think it would be more helpful to deal with the challenges in this way, instead.")    

 

The entire article seems to presume that her way of looking at it is the only way and that white people's disagreements are dishonest at best.   Eg, she says that discussions of "good schools" inherently implies that they will have no non-whites,  "Yet, while discourses about what makes a space good are tacitly understood as racially coded, this coding is explicitly denied by whites."   Here's an example of her presuming what she is trying to assert.   If I deny it, I am falling into the typical error that white people fall into.  Yet I have NEVER heard anyone say or imply that any school should be rated on the basis of racial mix--what makes a school "good," imho, is simply whether its kids graduate able to read and write and go on to whatever career they are interested in.  But in saying that, I'm just a White "denier," not willing to admit that really, what I mean is that the school should be all White.   I don't know how to answer that--I'm not defensive.  I would love to see every school in the country mimic the racial percentages of the country as a whole, and more than that, I'd like to see every school in the country turning out kids who are ready to succeed.   But I'm just denying the truth, I guess--my viewpoint means nothing because I don't agree with her assertion.   

 

 

Or here's another one:  "whites have no compunction about debating the knowledge of people who have thought complexly about race. Whites generally feel free to dismiss these informed perspectives rather than have the humility to acknowledge that they are unfamiliar, reflect on them further, or seek more information."   In other words, I should not ever debate someone about this, because I have obviously not "thought complexly about race."  (But from the above, I'm also not allowed to just be silent, I guess.)    It is possible that a person has thought complexly about the issue and might still disagree. It's also possible that someone is dismissing and just spouting an opinion, which often happens in any discussion (not limited to Whites or to any given topic of discussion).    But in this case, the implication is that any White person who disagrees has not thought complexly about it and have an uninformed perspective.   

 

I do think there are some valid points in the article, but I also do think it's dismissive of those who might have a more principled disagreement than she is aware of.  

 

 

I agree with all her points about white people being priveleged and not really knowing it, but I'll say a few things in defense of white people, if I may. 

 

First, I think many white people have been told frequently that simply because they are white, they are racist or blind to racism. For example - you're white, therefore you can't possibly understand what minority races deal with. While true, these statements are often made in such a way that puts white people on defense, trying desperately to 'prove' that they aren't racist. There's really no way to 'win' that argument, and the white person ends up feeling vilified. 

 

Second, due to the insulation the author talks about, many white people do feel they've had to struggle to get where they are, and to be told that they are 'over privileged' rubs them the wrong way. If you started out as a minimum wage worker, went to school at night, scrapped and saved and went without, you get a little irritated when people who don't know you claim you got where you are simply by being a white male. 

 

The real problem, in my eyes, is that we too often just talk at each other, rather than actually getting to know people of other races and developing relationships that allow for real dialogue. 

 

There are a couple stories I've been able to tell over the years which have gotten the point of current racism across very well.  One is of a friend of my dd's, who was turned away at a birthday party because the parents had not known when she was invited that she was Black.  (This was only about 10 years ago.)    When I tell my White friends this they are shocked and horrified.   I think this type of story telling is important if we want people to understand the other side.  

[Guest]

I agree with Little Women in that I have issues with her premise and juxtaposition of the 'sides' in her argument. I think she underestimates how much this sort of adversarial relationship *imposed* on everyday interactions actually exacerbates the problems she sees and decreases mutual understanding and discourse.

[SKL]

Well since white fragility is a recognized issue, I trust the universities have set up safe zones and trigger warnings to protect those affected by it.

[Guest]

Well since white fragility is a recognized issue, I trust the universities have set up safe zones and trigger warnings to protect those affected by it.

HA! Right?

 

Pfft.

[KungFuPanda]

I have a serious problem with people presuming that someone is inherently flawed because of their race. To look at someone's skin and decide they are ignorant, "less than," or incapable of learning and evolving is just flat out creepy. To back this claim with academic credentials is especially alarming. I feel the author used "we" way too much when she was identifying her own prejudice and experience. I don't know where she's from, but some of her presumptions seem to come from another generation. She presented some very outdated stereotypes in a way that led me to believe she thinks these are current and common opinions. Of course, if you in any way react or don't react you are only proving her point.

 

I believe white privilege is pervasive and real, but I thought this article was just odd in the same way female misogynists can be really odd.

[Tanaqui]

Or here's another one:  "whites have no compunction about debating the knowledge of people who have thought complexly about race. Whites generally feel free to dismiss these informed perspectives rather than have the humility to acknowledge that they are unfamiliar, reflect on them further, or seek more information."   In other words, I should not ever debate someone about this, because I have obviously not "thought complexly about race."

 

That's not what that sentence says.

 

It doesn't say "White people shouldn't debate others on this", it's more like "White people frequently say or imply that non-whites who have given a good deal of thought to this issue don't really know what they're talking about, and are just making it up, or possibly exaggerating".

 

Look carefully at the quote. It talks about debating the knowledge, not about debating the people.

[SKL]

Am I the only person who dislikes the use of the term "whites" as if we are all the same and our skin color is our chief characteristic?  (I also dislike the term "blacks.")  How can a learned person say "whites do this" or "blacks do that"?

Edited December 4, 2015 by SKL

[Ottakee]

Am I the only person who dislikes the use of the term "whites" as if we are all the same and our skin color is our chief characteristic? (I also dislike the term "blacks.") How can a learned person say "whites do this" or "blacks do that"?

I am on a forum for people that have adopted transracial. I found there that most of the people of color preferred the term Black over African American.

[Carrie12345]

I agree with all her points about white people being priveleged and not really knowing it, but I'll say a few things in defense of white people, if I may. 

 

First, I think many white people have been told frequently that simply because they are white, they are racist or blind to racism. For example - you're white, therefore you can't possibly understand what minority races deal with. While true, these statements are often made in such a way that puts white people on defense, trying desperately to 'prove' that they aren't racist. There's really no way to 'win' that argument, and the white person ends up feeling vilified. 

 

Second, due to the insulation the author talks about, many white people do feel they've had to struggle to get where they are, and to be told that they are 'over privileged' rubs them the wrong way. If you started out as a minimum wage worker, went to school at night, scrapped and saved and went without, you get a little irritated when people who don't know you claim you got where you are simply by being a white male. 

 

The real problem, in my eyes, is that we too often just talk at each other, rather than actually getting to know people of other races and developing relationships that allow for real dialogue. 

 

I think the above illustrates the point perfectly.

 

"You can't possibly understand" does not equate to "you are racist and should now be trying to defend yourself."  The response to "you can't possibly understand" is "I know."  Perhaps with a "But I hear you, and I am (or want to be) an ally."

 

I don't know who's going around saying anyone got anywhere just by being a white male.  But white males do get wherever they get (whether that be the top of the ladder or in the meth lab" without any of the barriers that are specific to women and minorities.

 

You can't expect to have real dialogue when you twist the message your being sent.

[Carrie12345]

Am I the only person who dislikes the use of the term "whites" as if we are all the same and our skin color is our chief characteristic?  (I also dislike the term "blacks.")  How can a learned person say "whites do this" or "blacks do that"?

 

I don't think it's much different than saying Americans this or teenagers that.  Learned people understand that not all Americans have a burger in one hand and gun in the other and not all teenagers are surly, but that there are concepts, ideas, and issues that apply to Americans or teenagers, in general, and not other groups.

 

I am on a forum for people that have adopted transracial. I found there that most of the people of color preferred the term Black over African American.

 

Many of the black people we know are as far from African as I am from Irish, if not further.  It would be weird to consider my Dominican neighbors African American, no?

[SKL]

I am on a forum for people that have adopted transracial. I found there that most of the people of color preferred the term Black over African American.

 

I would have the same issue with people saying "AAs do this, whites do that."

 

I don't like the term Black (or White), but I do understand that some people prefer Black for themselves, and I respect that.

[SKL]

I think the above illustrates the point perfectly.

 

"You can't possibly understand" does not equate to "you are racist and should now be trying to defend yourself."  The response to "you can't possibly understand" is "I know."  Perhaps with a "But I hear you, and I am (or want to be) an ally."

 

I don't know who's going around saying anyone got anywhere just by being a white male.  But white males do get wherever they get (whether that be the top of the ladder or in the meth lab" without any of the barriers that are specific to women and minorities.

 

You can't expect to have real dialogue when you twist the message your being sent.

 

If white people can't possibly understand, why bother to have the discussion?

 

It is condescending to say someone can't possibly understand something.  What if whites went around saying other races can't possibly understand how it is to have a bad sunburn, or to be repeatedly accused of racism with no objective basis?

[Carrie12345]

If white people can't possibly understand, why bother to have the discussion?

 

It is condescending to say someone can't possibly understand something.  What if whites went around saying other races can't possibly understand how it is to have a bad sunburn, or to be repeatedly accused of racism with no objective basis?

 

I can't possibly understand what it's really like for my grandmother to have lost almost all her sight.

I can't possibly understand what it's like for my sil to have lost her child.

I can't possibly understand what it's like for my friends who have had cancer.

 

I am entirely capable of compassion while being fortunate enough to lack the experience.

[Cindy in FL.]

Well since white fragility is a recognized issue, I trust the universities have set up safe zones and trigger warnings to protect those affected by it.

There might be some micro aggressions involved, too.

[SKL]

I can't possibly understand what it's really like for my grandmother to have lost almost all her sight.

I can't possibly understand what it's like for my sil to have lost her child.

I can't possibly understand what it's like for my friends who have had cancer.

 

I am entirely capable of compassion while being fortunate enough to lack the experience.

 

You know, it's a lot different to say "I can't possibly understand" than to say "you / your group can't possibly understand."

 

Like "I don't keep house well" vs. "you don't keep house well."

 

[Carrie12345]

You know, it's a lot different to say "I can't possibly understand" than to say "you / your group can't possibly understand."

 

Like "I don't keep house well" vs. "you don't keep house well."

 

 

If you (general) are experiencing people coming up to you, out of the blue, "accusing" you of not understanding, that sucks and I'm sorry that's happening.

 

If you (general) are hearing this statement in a conversation, I'd suggest stopping to think about what preceded it.

 

"You can't possibly understand" makes sense after "I know you're scared, Grandma, but..." or "I feel your pain, grieving mother..." or "I get it, cancer patient."  No, you don't know. You think you know what it might be like, but you don't, and to pretend that you do is ridiculous and insulting.

 

I do not know what it's like to be a black woman. Or a white man. Or any combination other than white female.  If I pretend otherwise, I'm a moron.  I can have a vague notion and imagine, but I cannot speak for the experience of others.  If someone tells me "You can't possibly understand," I'm going to stop and think about how and why I gave the impression that I could and acknowledge my mistake without taking it out on someone else, and I will have gained perspective and lost nothing.

[SKL]

Well I think some people (of all races) waste a lot of emotional energy thinking up things to get upset about.  I don't think it makes the world a better place.  I think it polarizes people and discourages productive discourse.

 

If you're a soft sciences professor who needs to publish an article to get paid, then I guess it's worth your while to do this.  The rest of us are probably better off just doing what we do to hopefully make a contribution in our communities.

[Ravin]

Am I the only person who dislikes the use of the term "whites" as if we are all the same and our skin color is our chief characteristic?  (I also dislike the term "blacks.")  How can a learned person say "whites do this" or "blacks do that"?

 

The way I learned to understand how "white" is defined in critical race theory, is that it's not actually about skin color, but about privilege. White in this context doesn't necessarily mean "of European descent", it means "the people with racial privilege." At various times in the U.S., people have been designated as non-white based on religion (ex: in a good part of of the 20th century, Christians from Lebanon and Syria were designated as "white" for immigration purposes while Muslims of the same ancestry were not; likewise in some times and places in the U.S. Italians and Irish were designated as nonwhite for being Catholic). They have also been designated as white based upon the privileged class wanting them to be (example: a law was passed in Virginia which made all descendants of Pocahontas white. That way, people could claim descent from her (a real Indian Princess, doncha know?) and not have that be seen as racial taint). There are other examples of Christianized/assimilated people of part or all Native American descent being designated as white and accepted as such in their communities--it was about assimilation. Likewise, as Italian and Irish Americans became assimilated into U.S. culture, they were seen as white.

 

So, being white isn't so much about the actual color of your skin or your actual ancestry, as about looking like you belong to the dominant racial group. Whiteness is about not being seen as a POC/minority more than it is seen as its own race. It can also be seen as having degrees--some people might be whiter than others, which is to say, they have more racial privilege than another person, regardless of how they would identify themselves in terms of race/nationality. 

[Katy]

Every time I hear a conversation on these topics I flash back to this early episode where Bones refused to discuss race because she'd previously learned she could not say anything that was right. 

 

I agree with the sentiment.

[Lolly]

If you (general) are experiencing people coming up to you, out of the blue, "accusing" you of not understanding, that sucks and I'm sorry that's happening.

 

If you (general) are hearing this statement in a conversation, I'd suggest stopping to think about what preceded it.

 

"You can't possibly understand" makes sense after "I know you're scared, Grandma, but..." or "I feel your pain, grieving mother..." or "I get it, cancer patient."  No, you don't know. You think you know what it might be like, but you don't, and to pretend that you do is ridiculous and insulting.

 

I do not know what it's like to be a black woman. Or a white man. Or any combination other than white female.  If I pretend otherwise, I'm a moron.  I can have a vague notion and imagine, but I cannot speak for the experience of others.  If someone tells me "You can't possibly understand," I'm going to stop and think about how and why I gave the impression that I could and acknowledge my mistake without taking it out on someone else, and I will have gained perspective and lost nothing.

You know what? I get that. BUT, for the person who is saying it to then say that they know how I feel...Sorry. Nope. If I cannot understand what they feel, then they cannot understand (and tell me) what I feel. And this is what is happening. THe street runs both ways. If white female can only know what it is like to be white female, then black female can only know what it is like to be black female. She needs to stop telling white male and female what they feel and have.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Lolly

[SparklyUnicorn]

Every time I hear a conversation on these topics I flash back to this early episode where Bones refused to discuss race because she'd previously learned she could not say anything that was right. 

 

I agree with the sentiment.

 

Plus it's not particularly productive.  So I don't know.  Tell me what I should do.  I probably can't ever know, but what steps should I take to do better.  Just yelling at me that I don't understand doesn't help.

 

 

[bibiche]

Some of these responses make me feel pretty sad and discouraged. And, interestingly enough, reflect a lot of "white fragility" as defined by the article. I went back and reread it and I am just not getting the accusatory tone that others seem to be reading into it. And I think that acknowledging that white privilege and white fragility exist is extremely important in furthering understanding of minority experience in America. I just don't get why people are so averse to recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same America as majority culture. And I especially don't understand the apparent need for sarcastic remarks and dismissive attitudes. *sigh*

 

Link to Peggy McIntosh's article on white privilege: http://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack

[SparklyUnicorn]

Some of these responses make me feel pretty sad and discouraged. And, interestingly enough, reflect a lot of "white fragility" as defined by the article. I went back and reread it and I am just not getting the accusatory tone that others seem to be reading into it. And I think that acknowledging that white privilege and white fragility exist is extremely important in furthering understanding of minority experience in America. I just don't get why people are so averse to recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same America as majority culture. And I especially don't understand the apparent need for sarcastic remarks and dismissive attitudes. *sigh*

 

Link to Peggy McIntosh's article on white privilege: http://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack

 

Honestly, I had a hard time getting through that article.  It was awkward to read, dry, and there were several vague points.

 

I didn't feel accused, but I'd just like something more productive than that.

[Lolly]

Some of these responses make me feel pretty sad and discouraged. And, interestingly enough, reflect a lot of "white fragility" as defined by the article. I went back and reread it and I am just not getting the accusatory tone that others seem to be reading into it. And I think that acknowledging that white privilege and white fragility exist is extremely important in furthering understanding of minority experience in America. I just don't get why people are so averse to recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same America as majority culture. And I especially don't understand the apparent need for sarcastic remarks and dismissive attitudes. *sigh*

 

Link to Peggy McIntosh's article on white privilege: http://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack

 

I have no problems recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same america as a majority culture. I have no problem recognizing that my dh does not experience the same culture that I do as a female. I admit, I am really not interested in discussing the issue. Why? Not because of fragility, but because no one is really interested in hearing MY truth. If MY truth does not agree with what the listener (writer in this case) views as the truth (HER truth), then she dismisses it as white fragility. Maybe her "black fragility" is causing her issue? That would be using her logic, not mine.Since my opinion is going to be dismissed as fragility, why bother? Thus, a little sarcasm and dismissiveness of tone. In order to have a conversation, BOTH sides need to be willing to listen and give and take. I have tried to listen and give, it is always, always, always met with me being told that my views are invalid. So, why try? If it is impossible, why make the attempt?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have no problems recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same america as a majority culture. I have no problem recognizing that my dh does not experience the same culture that I do as a female. I admit, I am really not interested in discussing the issue. Why? Not because of fragility, but because no one is really interested in hearing MY truth. If MY truth does not agree with what the listener (writer in this case) views as the truth (HER truth), then she dismisses it as white fragility. Maybe her "black fragility" is causing her issue? That would be using her logic, not mine.Since my opinion is going to be dismissed as fragility, why bother? Thus, a little sarcasm and dismissiveness of tone. In order to have a conversation, BOTH sides need to be willing to listen and give and take. I have tried to listen and give, it is always, always, always met with me being told that my views are invalid. So, why try? If it is impossible, why make the attempt?

 

Yes.  I think part of it is that many of us experience some sort of discrimination.  We are treated less for some reason.  This is not to make light of this particular topic. 

 

I once was involved with a group discussing a particular issue (this was an on-line blog).  The owner often hosted guest writers to talk about the issues.  These were often professionals of one sort or another (doctors, therapists, etc.).  One guy went on and on about how it's hard for us (members of the group) because are concerns are being ignored and we aren't used to that because we come from the privilege of being taken for our word.  Good grief.  I have never had the privilege of simply being taken for my word.  That guy made too many assumptions.  I don't even know how he could have come to that conclusion.  Except I guess maybe he thinks if we are smart enough to question a situation we must come from a privileged background.  People who don't come from privilege are apparently unable to think for themselves.  I hope that is not what he meant, but I cannot explain it any other way. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 It's not so much that your views here are invalid, it's just that you are talking from a different starting point, which doesn't really recognize privilege. 

 

I don't really understand this type of response, tbh. I am as white as they come, and I just find it interesting to learn about. Maybe it's because I'm motivated to learn about it, due to being the only person in my immediate family who is white. Idk. 

 

I have spent a lot of time learning about this, but I'm getting to a point where I want to know what people are going to do about it or what I can do about it.  I'm past the theoretical part. 

[bibiche]

I have no problems recognizing that minority culture does not experience the same america as a majority culture. I have no problem recognizing that my dh does not experience the same culture that I do as a female. I admit, I am really not interested in discussing the issue. Why? Not because of fragility, but because no one is really interested in hearing MY truth. If MY truth does not agree with what the listener (writer in this case) views as the truth (HER truth), then she dismisses it as white fragility. Maybe her "black fragility" is causing her issue? That would be using her logic, not mine.Since my opinion is going to be dismissed as fragility, why bother? Thus, a little sarcasm and dismissiveness of tone. In order to have a conversation, BOTH sides need to be willing to listen and give and take. I have tried to listen and give, it is always, always, always met with me being told that my views are invalid. So, why try? If it is impossible, why make the attempt?

 

More later, but FYI the author is white. Does that change your view?

[SparklyUnicorn]

More later, but FYI the author is white. Does that change your view?

 

the author mentioned she is white

 

doesn't change my view

 

I know you didn't ask me.

[Guest]

I couldn't care less what color she is. Someone's color doesn't give their view more or less validity.

 

It's precisely that premise I reject - I think it makes communication and achievement that much harder. Because then we are always second guessing the person rather than their contributions. It's like the ultimate unintended ad hominem. "White Guilt" is a great book from about a decade ago that addresses this well. Clarence Thomas has written some excellent treatises on the topic too, as did Michelle Malkin back in the day when she was a little more level headed

[SparklyUnicorn]

Interestingly I think some black people have internalized some of these things to the point they believe it themselves.  As an example, I have seen many instances where black children are treated much more harshly than white children (by camp counselors, teachers, parents, etc.).  I've asked about it.  I was told this is what is wanted.  And I think, who would want this for their kid?!  It's awful.  My kids didn't want to put up with it and I didn't make them because I agreed it was stupid.  I'm leaving a lot out because this is a longgg story.

 

But once at the park a black mother said to her baby that she was going to beat his ass.  That's how they talk to their kids around here.  They are also harder on their kids.  Once one of mine said you aren't supposed to beat a baby!  The mother said if he misbehaves then that is what he gets. 

 

I don't get it.

 

 

[luuknam]

But once at the park a black mother said to her baby that she was going to beat his ass.  That's how they talk to their kids around here.  They are also harder on their kids.  Once one of mine said you aren't supposed to beat a baby!  The mother said if he misbehaves then that is what he gets. 

 

I don't get it.

 

I'm not black, but this is my understanding of that situation:

 

A black kid misbehaving is not a big deal. But black moms know that once those boys become black teens or black young adults, they are at a much higher risk than white teens/young adults in interactions with police etc. So, better to beat some sense in them early.

[Lolly]

 It's not so much that your views here are invalid, it's just that you are talking from a different starting point, which doesn't really recognize privilege. 

 

I don't really understand this type of response, tbh. I am as white as they come, and I just find it interesting to learn about. Maybe it's because I'm motivated to learn about it, due to being the only person in my immediate family who is white. Idk. 

 

Who says I don't recognize privilege? You are thinking you are in my skin and know what I think and believe? I admit it. I live in an awesome world. It is far better than what most live in. I have most certainly experienced privilege.

More later, but FYI the author is white. Does that change your view?

No. She still cannot possibly know what MY experience and feelings are. Her skin color actually doesn't matter in that regard. I am the only one who knows what/how/why I feel. Anyone who says my reactions are because of X reason without quoting me is very likely to be incorrect. Especially if they are making a large generalized statement.

[Farrar]

I used to find it more stressful, but I find it less so the more I try to do it.

 

But it's not easy to reorient.

 

And clearly some people find it beyond stressful. I think the whole epidemic of early death for white middle aged men (which is mostly drinking, drugs, etc. related) is honestly tied to this to some extent. A sense of having "lost" the privilege they feel they deserve.

[Sneezyone]

I'm not black, but this is my understanding of that situation:

 

A black kid misbehaving is not a big deal. But black moms know that once those boys become black teens or black young adults, they are at a much higher risk than white teens/young adults in interactions with police etc. So, better to beat some sense in them early.

 

Yes, this. Many kids are taught obedience, above all else, is required. Hence the widespread disbelief about black kids and adults constantly charging toward armed LEOs.

[Farrar]

 Yeah, but when I hear this stuff in the media, from people I know,  I'm just like - yes, that is what intersectionality explains.

 

I have neither class nor gender privilege and it sucks and there are things I'd like to do about that...but it doesn't erase my white privilege.

 

I have zero problem with empathizing with working class white men who have no class privilege. But in that case, the enemy isn't women, or blacks, or Latinos or immigrants...really, a working class white man should be able to see that those categories of people are in fact, allies, and work with others to tackle the systemic issues that keep all of us down.

 

Otoh, having a hissy fit because you've had your 'deserved' privilege threatened ? No sympathy at all. Cry me a river, etc.

 

I don't think most of the people who are dying young are having a hissy fit. I think it's more that there's a sense of depression and loss. For some, it also involves a hissy fit. But for others, I think it's more existential - harder to pinpoint - just a sense that there's no future for them for some vague reason. Sort of like how people who are trying hard not to be racist are sometimes being super racist. I think some of this white male angst is tied to race yet isn't consciously tied to race or loss of privilege.

 

The epidemic of heroin use feels to me like it's more than a hissy fit. And there's a huge double standard in how the largely white families of its victims want to deal with it - more treatment, not more imprisonment - which is the total opposite of how they (they statistically, not they individually necessarily) wanted the crack epidemic dealt with. But then I'm like, well, they're hypocrites, but they're also right - that's a better approach. 

[Tanaqui]

Oh, hey, I just remembered this article on privilege distress, which seems to me to be related to this topic. (And since I said the p-word, take this article on what privilege really means for lagniappe.)

[Farrar]

People who are dying young, tend, in the main, to be poor.  When your health outcomes are tied to your socio-economic status, feelings of depression and loss are definitely not in the category of 'tantrum because I have to look at my undeserved privilege'.

 

I'm trying to get a feel for what you're expressing here, but I'm failing.

 

Are you saying that when you lack privilege in some substantial life areas - such as class - it hurts to also lose white privilege ?

 

I guess it does. 

 

Yes, that. Also that while intersectionality is great and all... poor white Americans don't really get it. Like, really don't. Would rather reject it than take it, even when it could be good.

 

And that I think it's an example of how things are changing. That there is a loss of privilege for people to be responding to. Obviously not a full loss of privilege by any stretch, but it's an oddly hopeful sign in certain ways. Shake ups lead to... things changing and shaking up. To be obvious.

[Tanaqui]

I'm thinking "divide and conquer". If we can convince poor whites that they're NOT in the same situation as poor blacks/Hispanics/Asians, we can convince them that their needs and those of racial minorities conflict. We can get all the poor people at the bottom squabbling over crumbs, and distract them from the fact that a handful of Americans have run off with the whole rest of the pie.

 

And the first step is to make sure nobody sees the whole picture. Keep everybody focused on their group and their problems, don't let anybody see they're all caught in the same tangled web of power and privilege with each other.

[regentrude]

I'm thinking "divide and conquer". If we can convince poor whites that they're NOT in the same situation as poor blacks/Hispanics/Asians, we can convince them that their needs and those of racial minorities conflict.

 

Now you lost me. Wasn't the point of the article precisely that the situation of whites never compares to the situation of blacks, irrespective of what else they have going on?

 

[Farrar]

Gotcha. So understanding privilege is a manifestation of privilege ? I can sort of see that, except it's a bit like saying that poor white people are too dumb to get it, which is manifestly not true at all. 

 

Not that I'm suggesting you are saying that.

 

Just musing.

 

I definitely don't mean that. But in a way, education is a privilege and being able to "get it" is, in large part, having had the privilege of education and wider experiences with different people. It's not about intelligence. It's lack of experience.

 

I think it's more than not getting it... it's also not even knowing what it is. It's feeling disaffected without fully knowing why.

[Tanaqui]

Now you lost me. Wasn't the point of the article precisely that the situation of whites never compares to the situation of blacks, irrespective of what else they have going on?

 

I can agree with much of what the article says without slavishly agreeing with all of it :)

 

Though really, what do you think set up a society where white people don't compare notes with blacks?