White fragility

[Joules]

never mind, the conversation has moved on 

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Joules

[MSNative]

It might not help her but maybe it helped the other lady think through the idea. Those times were not the good old days for anyone other then rich white males. If I didn't say anything I would probably have wasted time tonight thinking about what she meant and try to figure out her intent. But I'm realizing, no I am part of this community and that means my feelings should be voiced. She doesn't have to accept it and maybe she thinks what she said isn't a big deal. But to me, it's a very big deal. I think because it makes me feel as if my groups struggles do not matter but they do because we are all American. How would she know that if I kept all that in?

I can see that and I think there is value to opening people's eyes to phrases that are hurtful. And I'm sure it was cathartic for you.

On the other hand, that may have also turned a possible advocate into a person who will write off calls of racism as people just being hypersensitive. I wonder if you couldn't have related to her feelings as a fellow mom who gets frustrated with wild kids but then in private let her know that her choice of words was hurtful to you.

 

I just read Sneezyones comment about how inadvertent comments cause her so much stress that it is literally shaving years off her life. We were posting at the same time. I still need to think over her post but I do see how coming right after that mine sounds dismissive and I don't mean it to

Edited December 10, 2015 by MSNative

[Catwoman]

Please don't make her, or anyone else, responsible for your decision (or not) to participate.This is tone policing and it's not OK. Her feelings are valid and they don't have to be expressed in a way that's comfy for you. Your tolerance for disagreement is really low if you're objecting to that post. She's not cursing you, calling you stupid, anything of the sort (which is why I was laughing at the idea that I might be fragile). You need your big kid undies on for these conversations.

The thing is, when someone starts a post by saying, "That's because you're white!!!" and says that I insisted that the white experience is the only one that is valid, it's kind of hard to know where to go from there. The judgment has already been made and apparently she found me guilty.

 

I'm not getting that impression from other posts, such as yours. I see that you are genuinely trying to engage in an open discussion and consider others' points of view. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I also don't expect to be judged so harshly based on a handful of posts.

[Rosie_0801]

I was on an Aboriginal run tour the other month, looking at a bush tucker site, which was cool, and the ruins of an old mission, which is incredibly uncool. I find the stolen generation stories rather triggering these days, and the woman running it noticed. Did she sneer at me because one white chick losing one baby is nothing compared to generations of women losing generations of babies? Or did she give me a hug because having a baby taken away is well over the threshold of awful for everyone?

 

Maybe she would always have been generous. Maybe the recognition her people have for that land now has empowered her enough that she can afford to be generous. I don't know.

[Lb20inblue]

But your gift does make it better. It really does. Any time anyone treats another person in a kind way and gives them the benefit of the doubt when they make a one-off stupid comment is making things better. Heaven knows I appreciate it when someone gives me a break for saying something awkwardly. I may not always acknowledge every little thing, but I do try to let people know I appreciate the little things they do for me, even if it's just chatting with me in a long line at the store or letting me know I dropped my glove on the floor, or not getting annoyed if I accidentally bump into them in a crowd.

 

Maybe your right. Maybe grace should be afforded and try to be similar to MLK in all situations. In high school I went to this year long Martin Luther King nonviolence academy and many of my beliefs about society and what it take to be in a community comes from that time.

 

However, they still killed MLK. His respectability didn't shield him from the nastiness in society. Am I saying that that we still live in those times. Of course not! However, I am coming around to the idea that maybe white fragility isn't a thing. If that is the case, then when I feel uncomfortable I should say so and not hold it in. Either it get resolved or it doesn't. But it's not my job to be gracious just gracious sake any longer. Still thinking this through

[Sneezyone]

I can see that and I think there is value to opening people's eyes to phrases that are hurtful. And I'm sure it was cathartic for you.

On the other hand, that may have also turned a possible advocate into a person who will write off calls of racism as people just being hypersensitive. I wonder if you couldn't have related to her feelings as a fellow mom who gets frustrated with wild kids but then in private let her know that her choice of words was hurtful to you.

 

I just read Sneezyones comment about how inadvertent comments cause her so much stress that it is literally shaving years off her life. We were posting at the same time. I still need to think over her post but I do see how coming right after that mine sounds dismissive and I don't mean it to

 

Research demonstrates that the silence and stress of being black in America (and perhaps other groups too, I don't know) is partly to blame for poor health outcomes, premature births, heart disease, etc. Also, I understand that you're not intending to be dismissive. *shakes hands*

[Lb20inblue]

I can see that and I think there is value to opening people's eyes to phrases that are hurtful. And I'm sure it was cathartic for you.

On the other hand, that may have also turned a possible advocate into a person who will write off calls of racism as people just being hypersensitive. I wonder if you couldn't have related to her feelings as a fellow mom who gets frustrated with wild kids but then in private let her know that her choice of words was hurtful to you.

 

I just read Sneezyones comment about how inadvertent comments cause her so much stress that it is literally shaving years off her life. We were posting at the same time. I still need to think over her post but I do see how coming right after that mine sounds dismissive and I don't mean it to

Hmm I guess I am struggling with this idea...why is it hypersensitive to call out things that truly bother me?

[Catwoman]

It makes it better for YOU, it doesn't make it better for ME. Do you see how that is, again, focusing on your need for comfort?

I internalize those slights, I tamp down those feelings of frustration.The stress literally negatively impacts my health and shaves years off my life.

Does that matter to you?

Yes, it does. I try very hard to be nice to the people I meet, and I hope I'm not unintentionally slighting anyone.

 

I wasn't focusing on my need for comfort, though -- I was trying to comfort you by letting you know that maybe people appreciate your efforts far more than they are letting you know. But hey, there I go with the awkward phrasing again, right? ;)

 

I wish I knew what you should do. I don't think you should let these things fester so that they impact your health. If people are truly upsetting you, I think you have to say something to them or do whatever you need to do to help yourself feel better, and if you occasionally confront a person who didn't meant anything negative, you can always explain yourself so they understand why you were offended. I am so sorry to hear that you are upset so often. :(

[Sneezyone]

The thing is, when someone starts a post by saying, "That's because you're white!!!" and says that I insisted that the white experience is the only one that is valid, it's kind of hard to know where to go from there. The judgment has already been made and apparently she found me guilty.

 

I'm not getting that impression from other posts, such as yours. I see that you are genuinely trying to engage in an open discussion and consider others' points of view. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I also don't expect to be judged so harshly based on a handful of posts.

 

It was an expression of frustration. People are allowed to be frustrated. This concept of fragility comes from the fact that we are often told (and shown) that you (in the general sense) cannot deal with expressions of frustration or anger from us. When you react that way to frustration, right or not, it validates the feelings minorities have re: white fragility. If you don't want to be seen as fragile, you have to accept that everyone's not going to be nice in the face of perceived slights.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Catwoman]

Maybe your right. Maybe grace should be afforded and try to be similar to MLK in all situations. In high school I went to this year long Martin Luther King nonviolence academy and many of my beliefs about society and what it take to be in a community comes from that time.

 

However, they still killed MLK. His respectability didn't shield him from the nastiness in society. Am I saying that that we still live in those times. Of course not! However, I am coming around to the idea that maybe white fragility isn't a thing. If that is the case, then when I feel uncomfortable I should say so and not hold it in. Either it get resolved or it doesn't. But it's not my job to be gracious just gracious sake any longer. Still thinking this through

I think you can be gracious and still get your point across. I do think it is important to not let yourself be insulted or marginalized. No one should have to accept that quietly.

 

I don't think you need to hold in your feelings, but I do think you will have the best and most effective impact on a person if you state those feelings politely (at least at first. ;)) I think most people say things without thinking and will apologize if you politely tell them that their words hurt or offended you. If you call them out publicly, like in a group situation, I think people are far more likely to get angry and defensive because they don't want to look bad in front of their friends.

[Sneezyone]

Yes, it does. I try very hard to be nice to the people I meet, and I hope I'm not unintentionally slighting anyone.

 

I wasn't focusing on my need for comfort, though -- I was trying to comfort you by letting you know that maybe people appreciate your efforts far more than they are letting you know. But hey, there I go with the awkward phrasing again, right? ;)

 

I wish I knew what you should do. I don't think you should let these things fester so that they impact your health. If people are truly upsetting you, I think you have to say something to them or do whatever you need to do to help yourself feel better, and if you occasionally confront a person who didn't meant anything negative, you can always explain yourself so they understand why you were offended. I am so sorry to hear that you are upset so often. :(

 

I don't find your phrasing awkward. It's OK, truly.

 

I just don't agree that those efforts are appreciated or understood. If they were truly understood and appreciated it, folks might be more humble (may not be the right word) in the face of someone screwing up the courage to speak up and especially appreciate it if they took the time do so so nicely.

[Catwoman]

It was an expression of frustration. People are allowed to be frustrated. This concept of fragility comes from the fact that we are often told (and shown) that you (in the general sense) cannot deal with expressions of frustration or anger from us. When you react that way to frustration, right or not, it validates the feelings minorities have re: white fragility. If you don't want to be seen as fragile, you have to accept that everyone's not going to be nice in the face of perceived slights.

I don't think it is "fragility" to point out rudeness. Disagreement is fine. People disagree with me all the time, so I'm pretty accustomed to that. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Hmm I guess I am struggling with this idea...why is it hypersensitive to call out things that truly bother me?

 

I think it is related to new convert syndrome. 

 

I totally get that you would want to kick people in the teeth often. It's just that world wouldn't be a better place if everyone who deserved a kick in the teeth received it every time. Balancing one's need to heal internal stuff via fighting with what other people actually need to heal their own internal stuff is tricky and there's no way not to be messy about it. Each individual works on their own internal timetable as well as the society's timetable.

 

 

Race relations between white and black (and any other colour) people in the US isn't my baggage, but we have enough baggage of our own over here in .au that I can relate to trends if not all the minor details.

[Catwoman]

I don't find your phrasing awkward. It's OK, truly.

 

I just don't agree that those efforts are appreciated or understood. If they were truly understood and appreciated it, folks might be more humble (may not be the right word) in the face of someone screwing up the courage to speak up and especially appreciate it if they took the time do so so nicely.

I think I know what you mean now, and it must be so frustrating to feel like you're always the one going the extra mile and turning the other cheek while no one else is extending those same courtesies to you. :grouphug:

 

I really have to think about this. I hope I'm not part of the problem. I try so hard to be nice to people but I hope I'm not screwing up without realizing it.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

Hmm I guess I am struggling with this idea...why is it hypersensitive to call out things that truly bother me?

You know, I was thinking more about this and I realized that in your example of the Good Old Days woman, I was so busy thinking about how she probably didn't mean any harm, that I didn't put enough value on your feelings, and I apologize for that.

[MSNative]

Hmm I guess I am struggling with this idea...why is it hypersensitive to call out things that truly bother me?

Because from her perspective she was just chatting with some moms about kids who don't listen to authority and you made it about race. She wasnt even thinking race.

I also see your point. The good old days where Scarlett was flouncing around and slavery flourished or while there were separate counters, etc were not such good old days. I think you are right to let her know that what she said was thoughtless and hurtful. I bet she is at home replaying this over and over in her mind too and probably feeling terrible about hurting you.

[MSNative]

Research demonstrates that the silence and stress of being black in America (and perhaps other groups too, I don't know) is partly to blame for poor health outcomes, premature births, heart disease, etc. Also, I understand that you're not intending to be dismissive. *shakes hands*

I wasn't doubting your facts and hope you didn't take it like that. I just didn't want to rush to make a comment without thinking though them. I appreciate the discussion. *shakes hands*

Ugh it's so hard to type these things and miss all the nuances of language. I find myself typing and deleting because I can't get my thoughts to come out right.

[Lb20inblue]

Is it crazy that I am sitting here crying because two internet people validated my feelings? Probably but it's the little things that makes things better. I know it hard because it's nerve racking just to bring it up sometimes. But if we are to build a more perfect union, this is how we do it. One interaction at a time.

[Lb20inblue]

Is it crazy that I am sitting here crying because two internet people validated my feelings? Probably but it's the little things that makes things better. I know it hard because it's nerve racking just to bring it up sometimes. But if we are to build a more perfect union, this is how we do it. One interaction at a time.

[Tanaqui]

The "good old days" is nothing more than a phrase to me. People use it all the time to talk about anything that is different or worse now than it was when they were younger. I sincerely doubt that most people have even the slightest racist intentions when they use the phrase.

 

You ever hear somebody use the phrase "Free, white, and twenty one"? It used to be all over the place, and the people who used it didn't think much of it. Nowadays, not so much, because society has learned that you have got to think a tiny bit before you speak.

 

I think I understand your objection, but I also try to remember that "you attract more flies with honey."

 

Literally untrue. You attract more flies with poop, though balsamic vinegar is a close second. Honey is a poor fly trap indeed.

 

It wasn't the PP's responsibility at that moment to address this issue in the most perfect possible way.

 

When I was a child, if I tried that line on my father - that it wasn't my job to pick up the living room, or that it wasn't my place to tell the teacher that a seatmate was cheating on tests - then his response was invariably "If not you, then who?"

 

Gosh, I hated those words, but how true they are! Obviously I wasn't sitting there right at that moment, so I don't know exactly what went down, but if the previous commenter thought it was her responsibility to speak up then I won't gainsay her.

 

Otherwise, you are creating discord and hostility for no good reason, and confronting a person who made an innocent comment and accusing them of being racist isn't going to help improve race relations.

 

When you are told "That statement is upsetting", this is not the same as being told "you are a bad person". And unless you're asserting that she jumped all over this woman and screamed "YOU HORRIBLE BIGOT! DON'T YOU KNOW HOW BAD IT WAS FOR BLACK PEOPLE BACK THEN!?" then I don't see what the fuss is about.

 

This is analogous to tapping the person in who just stepped in front of you in line and saying "Excuse me, the line actually starts at the other end", and NOT to punching that guy and saying "Look, loser, you can't just cut in front of people because you think you're better than us!"

 

Wow, you are getting awfully emotional over this, rather than reading what I am actually saying.

 

You keep insisting that every time we say "That statement was wrong" we're outright calling people racist bigots, despite the fact that nobody has used those words and at least one person on this thread has explicitly explained the difference to you. I don't know about you, but I certainly get emotional when people put their words in my mouth.

 

But your gift does make it better. It really does.

 

Makes it better for whom? For the speaker, who is being reminded - again - that "the good old days" were the days when most black people couldn't vote? For society, which is STILL overwhelmingly racist/sexist/etc. and extremely tied up to this narrative of The Good Old Days When We Did Things Right?

 

Or do you mean it makes things better for the speaker? Does it also make things better for her if nobody tells her she has toilet paper stuck to her shoe, or that it's good to say please, or that you should walk on the right on the sidewalk in NYC? How fragile is her ego that she can't take a simple correction, one that will make her life better and keep her from embarrassing herself?

[Rosie_0801]

I think I know what you mean now, and it must be so frustrating to feel like you're always the one going the extra mile and turning the other cheek while no one else is extending those same courtesies to you. :grouphug:

 

Or if they were, you wouldn't know it either.

 

It doesn't really work if someone says "Hey, did you notice how I didn't say X? Did that help you feel more comfortable? Do you think that would make other people you don't know personally but who are in your category of people feel more comfortable too?"

 

It'd be great if we could all accept such complex topics are a muddle and agree to assume everybody means well, but we can't always do that because we know they don't.

[MSNative]

Is it crazy that I am sitting here crying because two internet people validated my feelings? Probably but it's the little things that makes things better. I know it hard because it's nerve racking just to bring it up sometimes. But if we are to build a more perfect union, this is how we do it. One interaction at a time.

If I could figure out the hug emoticon I would post it. Hugs to you.

[Tanaqui]

Also, I missed, like, the last 15 comments on this thread, so forgive me if my last comment is painfully out of date.

[Catwoman]

Is it crazy that I am sitting here crying because two internet people validated my feelings? Probably but it's the little things that makes things better. I know it hard because it's nerve racking just to bring it up sometimes. But if we are to build a more perfect union, this is how we do it. One interaction at a time.

And I'm sitting here feeling awful because if someone slighted me, I would have called them out for it without thinking, "hey, maybe she didn't mean it that way," and yet I criticized you for doing exactly what I would have done in the same situation. :blush:

 

I'm so sorry. :(

[bibiche]

The thing is, when someone starts a post by saying, "That's because you're white!!!" and says that I insisted that the white experience is the only one that is valid, it's kind of hard to know where to go from there. The judgment has already been made and apparently she found me guilty.

 

I'm not getting that impression from other posts, such as yours. I see that you are genuinely trying to engage in an open discussion and consider others' points of view. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I also don't expect to be judged so harshly based on a handful of posts.

I am sorry if I offended you. If it makes you feel better, I was addressing a collective you even if I replied to a specific you. ;) And I am not "emotional" about this. Hard to convey tone on the computer. The exclamation points were there because that is the whole point: White people read situations differently than minorities. The white experience is the default experience. Have a look at the video I posted earlier. It is an amusing way to get people to realize what minorities put up with (and yes, I do mean put up with!) all of the time. What if you had to put up with stuff like that all the time? Wouldn't you get frustrated after a while? Wouldn't you get tired of remaining silent and being "a good sport" about it, even if the people that you were being a good sport for didn't even know that you were because they didn't realize how absolutely offensive they were being? We can't make changes for the better if white people do not even understand that they are being offensive. That is why I think it is a good thing to bring things up. And Lb20inblue did not call the "good old days" woman a racist. She just made a remark that - hopefully - will cause that woman and any other people there to think. I agree that it would be counterproductive to go around telling people they are racists. I don't believe that most people are. But I do believe that they are a part of a racist society and they need to be made aware of that. Some provocative (in the best sense of the word) remarks might help accomplish this.

Edited December 11, 2015 by bibiche

[MSNative]

You ever hear somebody use the phrase "Free, white, and twenty one"? It used to be all over the place, and the people who used it didn't think much of it. Nowadays, not so much, because society has learned that you have got to think a tiny bit before you speak.

 

 

Literally untrue. You attract more flies with poop, though balsamic vinegar is a close second. Honey is a poor fly trap indeed.

 

 

When I was a child, if I tried that line on my father - that it wasn't my job to pick up the living room, or that it wasn't my place to tell the teacher that a seatmate was cheating on tests - then his response was invariably "If not you, then who?"

 

Gosh, I hated those words, but how true they are! Obviously I wasn't sitting there right at that moment, so I don't know exactly what went down, but if the previous commenter thought it was her responsibility to speak up then I won't gainsay her.

 

 

When you are told "That statement is upsetting", this is not the same as being told "you are a bad person". And unless you're asserting that she jumped all over this woman and screamed "YOU HORRIBLE BIGOT! DON'T YOU KNOW HOW BAD IT WAS FOR BLACK PEOPLE BACK THEN!?" then I don't see what the fuss is about.

 

This is analogous to tapping the person in who just stepped in front of you in line and saying "Excuse me, the line actually starts at the other end", and NOT to punching that guy and saying "Look, loser, you can't just cut in front of people because you think you're better than us!"

 

 

You keep insisting that every time we say "That statement was wrong" we're outright calling people racist bigots, despite the fact that nobody has used those words and at least one person on this thread has explicitly explained the difference to you. I don't know about you, but I certainly get emotional when people put their words in my mouth.

 

 

Makes it better for whom? For the speaker, who is being reminded - again - that "the good old days" were the days when most black people couldn't vote? For society, which is STILL overwhelmingly racist/sexist/etc. and extremely tied up to this narrative of The Good Old Days When We Did Things Right?

 

Or do you mean it makes things better for the speaker? Does it also make things better for her if nobody tells her she has toilet paper stuck to her shoe, or that it's good to say please, or that you should walk on the right on the sidewalk in NYC? How fragile is her ego that she can't take a simple correction, one that will make her life better and keep her from embarrassing herself?

"You attract more flies with poop." My boys would love you! Not dismissing the rest of your post. Just had to share that that phrase will be with me for life

[Tanaqui]

Because from her perspective she was just chatting with some moms about kids who don't listen to authority and you made it about race. She wasnt even thinking race.

 

To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the "It was better when kids were obedient" phrasing either, and in that conversation I would have been thinking very strongly about bringing it up. I don't think things were better then, not for the kids and not for society. Easier for parents, maybe.

 

I probably wouldn't bring it up, or if I did I'd do so in a diffident way, as in "Oh, I don't know, I was raised to question authority and I think it worked for me", but... yeah.

[Catwoman]

Also, I missed, like, the last 15 comments on this thread, so forgive me if my last comment is painfully out of date.

No problem -- it's moving pretty fast! :)

[Catwoman]

I am sorry if I offended you. If it makes you feel better, I was addressing a collective you even if I replied to a specific you. ;) And I am not "emotional" about this. Hard to convey tone on the computer. The explanation points were there because that is the whole point: White people read situations differently than minorities. The white experience is the default experience. Have a look at the video I posted earlier. It is an amusing way to get people to realize what minorities put up with (and yes, I do mean put up with!) all of the time. What if you had to put up with stuff like that all the time? Wouldn't you get frustrated after a while? Wouldn't you get tired of remaining silent and being "a good sport" about it, even if the people that you were being a good sport for didn't even know that you were because they didn't realize how absolutely offensive they were being? We can't make changes for the better if white people do not even understand that they are being offensive. That is why I think it is a good thing to bring things up. And PP did not call the "good old days" woman a racist. She just made a remark that - hopefully - will cause that woman and any other people there to think. I agree that it would be counterproductive to go around telling people they are racists. I don't believe that most people are. But I do believe that they are a part of a racist society and they need to be made aware of that. Some provocative (in the best sense of the word) remarks might help accomplish this.

Thanks, bibiche. I really appreciate your post.

 

Sorry I over-reacted.

[EmseB]

I feel like, in life, I extend a lot of grace to people. When my coworker asked me if I likewise wondered whether black people smelled funny, I extended grace. When the lady at the airport, having spoken briefly with me, stepped in front of me to get to the the business class section (only to find myself and my children seated a row ahead of her) I extended grace. But that grace is not appreciated. The people I'm extending it to don't even know that I'm doing it. And I need to stop, because it's not helping. When I finally do say something, it feels like it comes out of nowhere to the recipient when, in my mind, I've been working up to it for quite some time and was only sparing the other person's feelings. Maybe white people aren't that fragile after all. I just need to tell them what I'm really thinking of comments like those and let the chips fall where they may.

 

 

First I would say that grace given is not often appreciated or noticed.  Giving grace is for me, not for the other person.  It extends to another person, but it is more about how I approach the day than anything else.  Giving grace, to me, does not mean letting things build at all.  If I am letting things build up, then I'm not extending grace.  I think we're talking about different things here when we talk about extending grace.

 

I absolutely would call someone out on wondering if black people smelled funny (what the??).  I would call someone out for thinking any group of people, as a group, smelled funny because of their color or physical characteristics.  As I have stated before, I think racism and blatant aggression need to be addressed.  But if I can't tell?  If I don't know someone's motives?  What good can come of accusing?  No, I don't operate on the presumption that my feelings are valid just because they are my feelings (as I think bibiche talked about in a pp).  I have been angry, or offended, or disappointed, or happy, or any other number of emotions before...and I've been wrong about what happened that made me feel that way.  I just can't, in social situations where I don't know someone very well and can't discern their intentions, attribute malice to them because I feel a certain way.  I can't attribute something as awful as sexism to someone because I feel bad.  My feelings are not controlled by other people, and my emotional reaction to something is not always right.

 

Someone butting in line happens to me.  Doesn't it happen to everyone?   I've often just let people go with grace that goes unappreciated because extending grace (to me) is always the better option.  It's better for me.  If it's not better for you, if you are letting things build and holding grudges about compounding behavior, then I definitely would try to find something different for your own mental health.  Then again, when a tween girl maneuvered in front of my two year old to get a drink of water, I said, "Oh, hey, he was getting a drink here," and she stepped aside.  I don't think that letting certain things go means being a doormat.  That's what I was talking about above when I think each situation should be considered individually, and each instance should be a personal choice of how much one wants to "take".  But that's because I just think everyone in their everyday lives encounters people who think differently, act differently, etc.  And most of the time what people do has nothing to do with me personally.  I keep reading examples in this thread and thinking, "don't we all know people like that?  don't we all encounter situations where people are rude or oblivious?  don't we all encounter people who make assumptions about us based on what we look like or how we dress or how old we are or any number of physical characteristics?".  But because these certain situations happen, I just can't see the benefit of heaping a whole load of social issues on someone (for example) who says something like "good old days", someone who may just be having a bad day and wished in a moment their kids behaved better.  I mean, I love that discussion actually because no the "good old days" were generally not good for anyone, but I don't feel compelled to remind anyone who utters the phrase in an off-hand way that the "good old days" often meant poverty, losing children, starvation, discrimination, not voting, not being able to work, and sending husbands and sons off to die in wars.  But at least in a casual, off-hand situation I can't see pointing that out, or thinking the person is ignorant or racist or sexist for saying it.

 

ETA:....and this is all terribly out of date!!!  I'll leave it up, but mainly, nevermind!

Edited December 10, 2015 by JodiSue

[Catwoman]

Or if they were, you wouldn't know it either.

 

It doesn't really work if someone says "Hey, did you notice how I didn't say X? Did that help you feel more comfortable? Do you think that would make other people you don't know personally but who are in your category of people feel more comfortable too?"

 

It'd be great if we could all accept such complex topics are a muddle and agree to assume everybody means well, but we can't always do that because we know they don't.

That is so true, Rosie.

 

My impression was that Sneezyone has spent a lot of time trying to assume that people mean well, but she has been proven wrong too many times, so it's hard for her to feel that way any more.

 

I wish I had a solution.

 

 

(Edited for typos. I have to turn off that stupid auto correct!)

Edited December 10, 2015 by Catwoman

[Rosie_0801]

To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the "It was better when kids were obedient" phrasing either, and in that conversation I would have been thinking very strongly about bringing it up. I don't think things were better then, not for the kids and not for society. Easier for parents, maybe.

 

I probably wouldn't bring it up, or if I did I'd do so in a diffident way, as in "Oh, I don't know, I was raised to question authority and I think it worked for me", but... yeah.

 

Hmm. My barrister was kind of telling me off for bringing up my dd to be polite. I found myself assuring her that I wasn't bringing her up to be polite as I was brought up. "I wasn't brought up to be polite at all!" she said. "That's why you're a barrister and I'm a DV victim," said I. 

 

It was a weird conversation. 

 

I guess life requires weird conversations for thinking people.

[Sneezyone]

I think I know what you mean now, and it must be so frustrating to feel like you're always the one going the extra mile and turning the other cheek while no one else is extending those same courtesies to you. :grouphug:

 

I really have to think about this. I hope I'm not part of the problem. I try so hard to be nice to people but I hope I'm not screwing up without realizing it.

 

YES, THANK YOU!

 

Seriously, thinking about it is all I ask.

 

I do go the extra mile to not take offense (I'm looking at you, Justice Scalia!) but it does get tiresome. When people say it's too much work to step outside themselves and see things from my perspective, I'm like, really? REALLY? Because I do that every day, code switching to make whichever group I'm a part of feel at ease with my presence, and no one seems to care that it's hard for me, or uncomfortable, or down right draining. It's just expected. So, yes, it is very frustrating when you finally express some small bit of outrage to have the other person complain about you speaking up at all and/or the manner in which you do it. 

[Rosie_0801]

My impression was that Sneezyone has spent a lot of time trying to assume that people mean well, but she has been proven wrong too many times, so it's hard for her to feel that way any more.

 

I am not going to invalidate anyone's desire to kick people in the teeth. 

[Catwoman]

I am not going to invalidate anyone's desire to kick people in the teeth.

I'm not, either.

 

Well, unless it's my teeth. I kind of like having my teeth. ;)

[bibiche]

 

I do go the extra mile to not take offense (I'm looking at you, Justice Scalia!)

 

OMG. I still cannot believe how absolutely offensive... W.T.F.  I wasn't sure we were "allowed" to mention it or if it constituted politics. But seriously. OMG. What year is this? What century is this?!

[Sneezyone]

OMG. I still cannot believe how absolutely offensive... W.T.F.  I wasn't sure we were "allowed" to mention it or if it constituted politics. But seriously. OMG. What year is this? What century is this?!

 

I'm going to leave this for today. Because I'm on a high note. And go plan some activities with my peeps. LOL.

[Catwoman]

I'm going to leave this for today. Because I'm on a high note. And go plan some activities with my peeps. LOL.

Well I hate to brag, but I'm heading out to spend a little quality time in the site-to-store pickup line at Walmart. Life doesn't get much better than that. ;)

[Tanaqui]

Wait, wait, did Scalia do something new? *off to google*

[bibiche]

Wait, wait, did Scalia do something new? *off to google*

Shocking, even coming from Scalia. Despicably racist remarks. :(

[Tanaqui]

Yes, I saw. I don't want to comment too much, because politics, but here's hoping it breaks up the Scalia-Thomas dream team. (Yeah, right.)

[SKL]

nm

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by SKL

[Slojo]

But that is because you are white!!!!!  Your viewpoint, while the default in our society, is NOT the only viewpoint.  Just because "the good old days" is good for you does not mean it was good for all people.  This is what people need to hear. This is what people need to take from this conversation.  The white experience is not the only one that is valid, and by insisting that it is you invalidate everyone else's experience.

 

It makes it better for YOU, it doesn't make it better for ME. Do you see how that is, again, focusing on your need for comfort?

I internalize those slights, I tamp down those feelings of frustration.The stress literally negatively impacts my health and shaves years off my life.

Does that matter to you?

 

I can see that and I think there is value to opening people's eyes to phrases that are hurtful. And I'm sure it was cathartic for you.

On the other hand, that may have also turned a possible advocate into a person who will write off calls of racism as people just being hypersensitive. I wonder if you couldn't have related to her feelings as a fellow mom who gets frustrated with wild kids but then in private let her know that her choice of words was hurtful to you.

 

I just read Sneezyones comment about how inadvertent comments cause her so much stress that it is literally shaving years off her life. We were posting at the same time. I still need to think over her post but I do see how coming right after that mine sounds dismissive and I don't mean it to

 

Research demonstrates that the silence and stress of being black in America (and perhaps other groups too, I don't know) is partly to blame for poor health outcomes, premature births, heart disease, etc. Also, I understand that you're not intending to be dismissive. *shakes hands*

 

Sounds like this conversation has come full circle! Is it possible that we might have a Pareto Improvement for all, here? Not total agreement - but just a moment of understanding?  Well, shut down the Internet and take pictures - this might be a first in the entirety of the Internet ;-)!  Thanks everyone for sticking in there. As difficult and frustrating as some of these interactions might be, I do think that it is one of the few places where people can continue to work out their ideas, and have some genuine feedback from folks who really come at these issues from different angles. 

[Carrie12345]

But that is because you are white!!!!!  Your viewpoint, while the default in our society, is NOT the only viewpoint.  Just because "the good old days" is good for you does not mean it was good for all people.  This is what people need to hear. This is what people need to take from this conversation.  The white experience is not the only one that is valid, and by insisting that it is you invalidate everyone else's experience.

 

Things along the lines of this "good old days" statement are are the kinds of things that probably do come out of my mouth without me noticing one bit.  Of course I can sit here and say I would never intend for it to be racist because I'm not a bigot.  It's "just" another one of the dumb things that come out of my oblivious mouth.  That is my truth.

 

If an oblivious thing comes out of my mouth and it triggers hurt, frustration, or offense (or any combination of the three,) that person's feelings are their truth.

 

This contest of which position is more valid, the foot in my mouth or the feelings it caused, is ridiculous.

 

"The good old days weren't very good for everyone." (paraphrasing)

"Oh, da**.  No, they weren't, actually.  That was a pretty stupid statement. I'm sorry."

 

My day isn't ruined.  Hopefully the other person's day isn't ruined.  The connection between my mouth and my foot gets tweaked a little better.  And, hopefully, the other person sees that. 

 

It is not some Herculean effort to apologize and learn.

[Pam in CT]

Sounds like this conversation has come full circle! Is it possible that we might have a Pareto Improvement for all, here? Not total agreement - but just a moment of understanding?  Well, shut down the Internet and take pictures - this might be a first in the entirety of the Internet ;-)!  Thanks everyone for sticking in there. As difficult and frustrating as some of these interactions might be, I do think that it is one of the few places where people can continue to work out their ideas, and have some genuine feedback from folks who really come at these issues from different angles. 

 

:lol: OK, that's the first I've seen that metaphor in this context.  

 

 

Slow clap to all.  

[bibiche]

Sounds like this conversation has come full circle! Is it possible that we might have a Pareto Improvement for all, here? Not total agreement - but just a moment of understanding?  Well, shut down the Internet and take pictures - this might be a first in the entirety of the Internet ;-)!  Thanks everyone for sticking in there. As difficult and frustrating as some of these interactions might be, I do think that it is one of the few places where people can continue to work out their ideas, and have some genuine feedback from folks who really come at these issues from different angles. 

 

Pretty awesome, huh?   :)