College Savings Reality Check JAWM

[TammyS]

.  The regional uni near us has wonderful music programs which have a small smattering of students in the audience.  I cannot figure this out. Why aren't students taking advantage of the opportunities offered?  I sure did!

 

:iagree: Our local U has loads of music offerings that we go to, for free (including some very famous people, we saw The Baltimore Consort there, twice! for free!).  Hardly ever see students in the audience.  It's one of the things that made us think that it wasn't a great fit, culturally, for our son, even though he'd be able to live at home.

[Arcadia]

Hardly ever see students in the audience. It's one of the things that made us think that it wasn't a great fit, culturally, for our son, even though he'd be able to live at home.

My alma mater have those concerts too. My schoolmates and I were most likely stuck in our labs that have 24/7 security access. The timing for the classical concerts weren't post-exams. The rock concerts were scheduled post-exams so those got a better turn out.

 

We did went to a classical concert with no dress code specified at our alma mater once. Everyone was dressed up. Hubby was a little out of place in long sleeve shirt and khaki pants. People pop into the reception area in jeans and pop out, maybe they felt awkward.

 

ETA:

Hubby walked home from campus or catch the last bus at 1am. I stayed on campus, it was a 45mins bus ride home off peak hours.

 

Hubby socialised with fellow engineering undergrads. I socialised with law, medicine and dentistry undergrads as well as my engineering schoolmates. Different social needs even though we were both in engineering.

 

I had fallen asleep through concerts. Plush seats + classical music + muted lighting in the concert hall + insomia = likely to nap.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Arcadia

[Hikin' Mama]

Tsuga,

 

I understand what you're saying - look, we've got twelve kids to get through this system. I get it. The problem is you are caught up in the drama of it because it's apparently shocking to you and painful.

 

There are those of us who never, ever planned to send our kids to CC. Such is life and I have to say, DS is really enjoying his experience there for two years while he finishes up high school and heads off to state school.

 

Did I want private college for my kids? Absolutely. My husband worked his tail off to get his degrees. The military paid off $65k, mostly paid for his grad degrees, and we have another $50-$55k in student loans currently. He worked one full time job 2nd shift, went to school, AND delivered pizzas. I babysat during the day, and took a few classes here and there. I'm currently (at darn near 40) taking a few classes. Some day I'll actually have that degree. (BTW, the classes are at CC and I'll only transfer to state school when CC is no longer relevant and useful. Know why? Because they USE THE SAME TEXTS and my education - what I get out of it, how hard I study, is actually up to ME. I'm in control of this.)

 

$200,000?

That's $100,000 each?

 

Local CC? $145 per credit. 60 credits to an AA. $8,750 worth of college credits to get to Junior status. Live. At. Home.

State Tuition? Let's assume you can't live at home and commute for this one.

Our state tuition for the state flagship is $9k. Living expenses is another $11k. That's $20k times 2 for 2 years to graduate. Which, btw, if you're SERIOUSLY financially strapped, then your kid, if not working, needs to take excess hours. My DD has achieved Junior status in 3 semesters - she took 2 classes in high school, went this summer, and took excess hours. She'll graduate in 3 years with her undergrad, not four, and the most $$ is given out for their first two years so stack those classes. If you aren't working, you better be studying. (BTW, she's in an honors program so it can be done.)

State school: $40k.

 

So all I can see, assuming a kid gets NO merit aid, contributes NOTHING, and gets NO financial aid, is $50,000.

 

 

Look, experience is great. But at the end of the day, the purpose is to get an education and get a job. Frankly, I'd rather save the $$ for grad school, where it counts the most.

 

I love my kids. I do them NO favors by letting them think they are entitled to an education. They aren't. My kids work harder and have to because, frankly, mama and daddy can contribute food to their mouths and warm bed. We pour huge effort into their high school education in the hopes it will pay out for college. It did for DD. Right now I will travel two days a week for Mock Trial, DH will travel so DS can finish his Eagle scout. He will write a ton of essays applying for scholarships, even the $500 ones. He studies a large part of his day - between DE classes and ACT prep, it's what he needs to do to contribute. During college he will work, just like his sister does. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it good for them? I think so. Too many kids have spare time and they don't do useful things with it. Since when has leisure time been a good thing? Not so much. So, no, no one *deserves* a free education. I think it MIND BOGGINGLY amazing that such a thing exists and that it is attainable and earnable that someone from an uneducated background can achieve it, not for their children, but in one generation for themselves.

 

There are precious few places where you can move yourself an income bracket. Either the kid wants it. Or they don't.

My parents paid exactly $0 for my education and they could sure afford it. They make over $200k a year and had 3 kids. DH's parents paid $1,000 towards his and each had some college education in a skilled trade. DH went on to put himself through school as well as grad school. And I think we do our kids a disservice when we don't let them think they can do this. I NEVER thought DD would be able to work and go to school. She's doing it. She's doing BETTER this semester than last when she didn't work. She has fine tuned her spare time, she is focused, and has learned a LOT about time management.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but there is such good advice and thinking in your post, that I wanted to do more than just like it. :)

[Jane in NC]

A friend of mine teaches the "Freshman Experience" class at the nearby regional uni.  She and other instructors require students to attend x number of on campus lectures or cultural performances.  One sees these students in a queue to have a form stamped when the event is over.  For students who have not grown up with a family culture of attending the theater or lectures, perhaps this mandatory requirement helps students recognize some of the possibilities within a college community.

[TechWife]

 I absolutely own that I would rather have her engaged in research and hands on than academic discussion.

 

In order to have well conducted research, there must be academic discussion. This enables the design of valid research protocols. It isn't an either/or, it's a both/and. If your daughter isn't participating in the discussion, then she's missing the point of the research. If she wants to take part in innovative research, then she's missing an important piece of her education. 

[KungFuPanda]

Economically, not many 18-year-olds can live alone. They're going to FIND a community if they move out. They'll have group living experiences and scout out all the free or nearly-free things there are to do. Granted, it's set up for you in the military and in college, but group living is an economic necessity. I really think the social benefits/drawbacks are just a side effect. Like a pp mentioned . . . so few kids on campus attend those awesome free events. DH and I, the off-campus dwellers, we're sitting in some small crowds with a lot of faculty at those things. The kids were more drawn to parties, free-form socializing, and ball games.

 

By the time I got to college I was 22 and DH was 26. Our college friends and connections were mainly DHs professors. A LOT of those deep and life-altering classroom discussions the other students were experiencing felt a bit silly and naive to me. I'm sure those kids believed these were truly significant, character-forming moments, but having viewed it with older eyes and more experience I just can't bring myself to believe that it's worth every ounce of financial sacrifice the parents can muster. Pay for the education? Absolutely. Pay double or triple so dd can live with her friends all four years and still make the same amount post-graduation? Nope. We're just not wealthy enough to spend that kind of money when it isn't necessary for her education. We thought we'd be by now, but life had other plans for us. I just don't have it in me to be sad for my daughter who is having her education paid for by her parents.

[TechWife]

Really, you wouldn't take a punch in the face right now for $20,000? I sure as heck would. Debt free in a day, just lose one tooth. I'd take it right now. I'll even take a punch in the face for $10,000. One punch per $10k. 

 

Of course the parents wouldn't offer it! I mean the kids would ask. Imagine, if all you had to do was get kicked out and voila, half of college could be paid for in Pell grants.

 

My point is just to say, desperation is high and you normally would not get anywhere even if you were kicked out.

 

 

 

Wow. I was a Pell Grant recipient when I was in college. No punches in the face required, just poverty. 

 

I'm assuming you don't actually know anyone who was or is being abused. Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying this so flippantly. Just, wow. 

[creekland]

A friend of mine teaches the "Freshman Experience" class at the nearby regional uni.  She and other instructors require students to attend x number of on campus lectures or cultural performances.  One sees these students in a queue to have a form stamped when the event is over.  For students who have not grown up with a family culture of attending the theater or lectures, perhaps this mandatory requirement helps students recognize some of the possibilities within a college community.

 

Middle son (the RA) takes his freshmen each year to some of these.  He also shows them around town and all sorts of other things available on campus.  It's the same way he was introduced to many things, so at his college, it's a bit of a cycle.

 

When we went to watch youngest son perform in his play last week there were oodles of students there.  It wasn't even free.  It cost them $5 each.  When we were walking around and dining on campus many more came up to him and told him they loved his performance.

 

Oldest told us stories of attending events on his campus.

 

I'm positive there are many students who aren't taking part in things, but in the experiences we've seen at the campuses we've been to (including my Alma mater), many are.

 

There are also plenty who party, of course.  I don't want to pretend that aspect isn't there.  It certainly is.  It's just not the only aspect of college socializing available.

[Bluegoat]

i don't think its  side effect of community living, but I think it is part of the experience, prt of why it is so intense.  In the military, or good university, you re thrown together in  very time-intensive way with people who are doing the same thing you re.  Taking the same classes, thinking bout the same new ideas, writing the same papers. 

 

Living with someone can also be intense, but it's less usual that people will be living a very similar life in other ways,  I think actually that both university and the military are purposefully designed that way to create a strong identity experience.

 

If you can't afford it though, or the child isn't keen, then it isn't some kind of developmental obligation.  I'm much less likely to recommend university than many here - I think trades for example should be much more seriously considered by people for whom university is a financial stretch.  There isn't some kind of perfect path to fulfillment for anyone, where if you miss it you miss your "real" life.

[TechWife]

Really, you wouldn't take a punch in the face right now for $20,000? I sure as heck would. Debt free in a day, just lose one tooth. I'd take it right now. I'll even take a punch in the face for $10,000. One punch per $10k. 

 

 

 

No, I really don't think I would. I have a great sense of personal dignity, not just for myself, but for others as well. FWIW, I don't find sports that intentionally harm others to be acceptable, either. 

[Jane in NC]

Middle son (the RA) takes his freshmen each year to some of these.  He also shows them around town and all sorts of other things available on campus.  It's the same way he was introduced to many things, so at his college, it's a bit of a cycle.

 

When we went to watch youngest son perform in his play last week there were oodles of students there.  It wasn't even free.  It cost them $5 each.  When we were walking around and dining on campus many more came up to him and told him they loved his performance.

 

Oldest told us stories of attending events on his campus.

 

I'm positive there are many students who aren't taking part in things, but in the experiences we've seen at the campuses we've been to (including my Alma mater), many are.

 

There are also plenty who party, of course.  I don't want to pretend that aspect isn't there.  It certainly is.  It's just not the only aspect of college socializing available.

 

Does your youngest attend a residential college, i.e. one where most students live on campus?  This situation encourages involvement.

 

Economically, not many 18-year-olds can live alone. They're going to FIND a community if they move out. They'll have group living experiences and scout out all the free or nearly-free things there are to do. Granted, it's set up for you in the military and in college, but group living is an economic necessity. I really think the social benefits/drawbacks are just a side effect. Like a pp mentioned . . . so few kids on campus attend those awesome free events. DH and I, the off-campus dwellers, we're sitting in some small crowds with a lot of faculty at those things. The kids were more drawn to parties, free-form socializing, and ball games.

 

By the time I got to college I was 22 and DH was 26. Our college friends and connections were mainly DHs professors. A LOT of those deep and life-altering classroom discussions the other students were experiencing felt a bit silly and naive to me. I'm sure those kids believed these were truly significant, character-forming moments, but having viewed it with older eyes and more experience I just can't bring myself to believe that it's worth every ounce of financial sacrifice the parents can muster. Pay for the education? Absolutely. Pay double or triple so dd can live with her friends all four years and still make the same amount post-graduation? Nope. We're just not wealthy enough to spend that kind of money when it isn't necessary for her education. We thought we'd be by now, but life had other plans for us. I just don't have it in me to be sad for my daughter who is having her education paid for by her parents.

 

Those discussions are not just student bull sessions though.  I had great interactions with faculty as an undergrad because I lived in the library or in the communal math help room.  Someone involved with maintaining Chartes Cathedral gave a lecture on symbolism in the church's stained glass windows.  It inspired me to make a day trip to Chartes when I found myself in Paris a year later.  I was introduced to foreign films (not part of my family culture) via campus.  I met jazz musicians and writers. 

 

Colleges that attract students from around the country and world may offer a learning community that is more broadening than one which only has students from the region.  My son grew up in a rural community.  Although his college was in another part of the country, he had to drag his Vietnamese roommate to the county fair so that his roommate, a sophisticated urban guy from Ho Chi Minh City, could taste rural American life.  Useless you say?  Maybe.  But I think this type of interaction opens cultural understandings.

[creekland]

Does your youngest attend a residential college, i.e. one where most students live on campus?  This situation encourages involvement.

 

 

Those discussions are not just student bull sessions though.  I had great interactions with faculty as an undergrad because I lived in the library or in the communal math help room.  Someone involved with maintaining Chartes Cathedral gave a lecture on symbolism in the church's stained glass windows.  It inspired me to make a day trip to Chartes when I found myself in Paris a year later.  I was introduced to foreign films (not part of my family culture) via campus.  I met jazz musicians and writers. 

 

Colleges that attract students from around the country and world may offer a learning community that is more broadening than one which only has students from the region.  My son grew up in a rural community.  Although his college was in another part of the country, he had to drag his Vietnamese roommate to the county fair so that his roommate, a sophisticated urban guy from Ho Chi Minh City, could taste rural American life.  Useless you say?  Maybe.  But I think this type of interaction opens cultural understandings.

 

All of my three have attended residential campuses, and yes, they have encouraged involvement.

 

I'm in full agreement with the discussion part of your thread too.  My guys have some of their best interactions with profs, but there are definitely others in their peer groups equally as stimulating.  The knowledge of the world they all share is deep.

[FaithManor]

Ds is a commuter this year and had fully embraced college life. I think it helps that we are so supportive of this and have friends only a few miles from campus who love to have him crash there when he doesn't want to drive home. We also show up for theater, concerts, convocation, etc. He joined the choir and a computer club so he made several friends. Though a freshman, he impressed his English professors enough to end up being recommended as a tutor, and he heads up a study club. They observe "Kilt Wednesdays" and he bought himself a kilt so he could join in on the fun. I think the reason he is this connected is that we have fostered this in our kids. We love college, tell all kinds of stories about college - LOL, all four are convinced that I am permanently damaged for having been a piano performance major - and we have been taking them to Alma College, CMU, U of Mi, and MSU since they were young for both academic and cultural events so they associate college with "doing cool things, seeing cool stuff".

 

In my area it does come down to family culture. Most of our neighbors are entirely sports only oriented. When their kids go to colege they are willing to fill the stadium and go to the gym, but they do not go to the band concerts, plays, or art shows.

 

Ds performs the choir Christmas concert three times the first weekend of December. Dh and the two brothers will go once, I am going to all three! :)

Edited November 25, 2015 by FaithManor

[regentrude]

Ds performs the choir Christmas concert three times the first weekend of December. Dh and the two brothers will go once, I am going to all three! :)

 

I'm jealous! DD sings in choir, but it is a 6.5 hour drive to her college, so I have not been able to attend any of her performances. I hope it works out next quarter. I heard their recordings; they are great.

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, my kids could definitely pay for community college tuition and live at home.

 

My point is not to say college is impossible, but holy crap, you can save for ten years and still not have a chance at going to a four-year.

 

I mean, there are students not on a 50% ride and not children of investment bankers who, at one time, actually did such things, you know?

 

That's the story they're still telling children in our town, around the country.

 

The child of a single mom who screwed up and had a child out of wedlock (or two) and didn't go to college until 30 deserves the cheap option.

 

The child of a woman who worked for 10 straight years, has a career, and is saving upwards of $1000/month should NOT have to face the exact same options.

 

I mean what IS that? Where are we going? And why is the discussion, "You're expecting too much, Tsuga. You, who paid for three degrees and worked your whole life--why do you think your kids deserve to go to anything other than the military and CC? That's what you deserve." No. That's not fair. I worked for better for my kids, not the same thing as my single mom who drank my pre-school years away! 

 

We'll do it if we have to, obviously, but you're kind of missing the point.

 

 

Thank you Joanne. I do really value your opinion due to your experience.

 

What you say is true, but my kids will not be eligible for need grants. Nor was I. Not a penny. If both your parents are working full time, and I see the FAFSA data on a daily basis, there is no need money available to you.

 

[snip]

 

And what I'm realizing is that â€‹even with only two kids and an upper middle class salary, you still don't have a snowball's chance in hell if your child does not have 50% + significant merit aid.

 

And there is no choice as to where you go.

 

I'm not trying to say, "Oh no, we can't go". Not at all! I appreciate the ideas! The knowledge of the cheaper, well-endowed LACs in the midwest is something I didn't think of. And besides that, my kids each have a second language and will test for college admission in another country. The point is to say we can't save for a four-year college--I mean obviously some people get in as freshmen, who are they???

 

I notice that you've changed the title of this thread to include "JAWM," and I promise I will respect that once I respond to a couple of things here, just for clarity.

 

First, everyone has a chance at a four-year college/university. As I mentioned in my lengthy post about my own son, we had no savings to speak of, don't qualify for need-based aid, have a kid who had an acceptable transcript and above-average-but-not-stellar test scores who is currently a residential student at a private, four-year university for which we pay an out-of-pocket amount I can cover working part-time. He had dual enrollment credits, which may have figured into his admission, but he entered as a freshman.

 

So, where are they? Right here. I have one. I know for sure that I'm not the only parent on these very boards who has one. 

 

And he did have a choice. He was admitted to nine similar schools in four states. Three of them offered him financial packages comparable to the one he accepted at the school of his choice, but others were close enough that I think it likely we might have been able to negotiate for more scholarship money if he had cared to pursue it.

 

I understand the panic. There's a lot of catastrophizing in the media and a real problem with tunnelvision, focusing on a relatively narrow band of "good" (read "prestigious brand name") schools with the assumption that the education available there is necessarily better than other, less household-name options. As I said, I'm not in any way attempting to dismiss or ridicule the concern. I'm simply trying to reassure you that the situation really isn't as bleak as it may seem.

[KungFuPanda]

Does your youngest attend a residential college, i.e. one where most students live on campus? This situation encourages involvement.

 

 

Those discussions are not just student bull sessions though. I had great interactions with faculty as an undergrad because I lived in the library or in the communal math help room. Someone involved with maintaining Chartes Cathedral gave a lecture on symbolism in the church's stained glass windows. It inspired me to make a day trip to Chartes when I found myself in Paris a year later. I was introduced to foreign films (not part of my family culture) via campus. I met jazz musicians and writers.

 

Colleges that attract students from around the country and world may offer a learning community that is more broadening than one which only has students from the region. My son grew up in a rural community. Although his college was in another part of the country, he had to drag his Vietnamese roommate to the county fair so that his roommate, a sophisticated urban guy from Ho Chi Minh City, could taste rural American life. Useless you say? Maybe. But I think this type of interaction opens cultural understandings.

I absolutely agree that those experiences hold value. I just don't think they are so valuable that parents should jeopardize their ability to retire to make it happen. Nor should students take on twenty years of crushing debt. I am comfortable with some educational debt, but it can't cost more than a house. Also, very few of the experiences people list are available ONLY to resident students. It's like hearing the "What about socialization?" argument but for the college level.

 

I will concede that I'd go to greater extremes to get my daughter living at school as a freshman if she'd grown up in a very homogenous area with little chance of exposure to other cultures, or if our CC was horrible or inadequate. However, this is a kid who has had good luck with geography, and opportunity. She's traveled internationally. She's formed diverse friendships.

 

I am willing to do what's necessary, but I'm not willing to spend an a EXTRA 50k so she can have a bedroom twenty miles away. She's already done a few sleep-over-in-the-dorm events with nearby college friends and she doesn't even attend those schools. For her, it would be more of a culture shock to attend a very rural school in the south, but she's not remotely interested in the rural schools or that type of life experience.

 

It's hard. I totally get the frustration and disbelief that led to posting this thread.

[JFSinIL]

[quote name="regentrude"

 

And at other schools, it is often the merit aid that gets the big tuition breaks; as pp mentioned,  getting high test scores brings in way more money than a student would earn from employment during high school."

 

Yes - the LAC ds attended gave him about $18,000 a year in merit aid due to his GPA,scores etc. Far more than he'd have earned working through high school instead of studying hard.

Edited November 25, 2015 by JFSinIL

[JFSinIL]

One benefit of attending a local school, be it cc or state u or a LAC and living at home - being able to continue with a part-time job acquired in high school. Youngest dd was hired by our city Parks and Rec Dept., first two summers working a concession stand, then tending the city ice rink in winter, now she works city-sponsored before and after school care for a local elementary. All as a Parks and Rec employee. She will eventually apply for a "real" job after graduation with over fours years working for the same employer, with increasing levels of responsibility. The kid kare ties into her desire to major in elementary education (she wants to join the system! Where did I go wrong?;-) with a minor in sociology.

Edited November 25, 2015 by JFSinIL

[unsinkable]

Really? This is JAWM now?

 

:lol:

[Joanne]

Tsuga,

 

I must have missed the JAWM when I responded. I am so sorry; I try to honor those requests.

 

FWIW, I felt the same (I think) frustration last year. I had posted on the college board about my fear regarding college. I got a range of experience; much of it not helpful. Some was "get good scholarships" with test scores, specifically. That was NOT an option with my dd (she does not test well.) I got push back on that - how can a person have a GPA north of 4.0 and "not test well." I got "military" suggestions, which is not an option for my dd who has juvenile idiopathic arthritis, and then I got questioned on her career choice (nursing.)  I remember feeling so very frustrated and not HEARD.

 

I want you to know I hear you. It IS a reality check, and the expectation of college and the American dream are set ups.

 

[Tsuga]

Really? This is JAWM now?

 

:lol:

 

What is the point of your thread other than to mock me?

 

I realized I should not have made people think that I was looking for advice--obviously someone who has paid for 6 years of her own college, a divorce, and made her way from 18 on doesn't need financial advice other than "you should have had your parents give you more".

 

I didn't want people to waste time explaining how Community College works to me. It's really a their waste of time. I know how it works, so I wanted to clarify that I'm not looking for that type of advice.

 

Do you do anything but mock on these thread? Literally, can you go back in your post history and see if you have provided any actual advice or suggestion? Or empathy? Or even a balanced perspective? Because all I see is you mocking. It's not just rude. I don't mind that people disagree with me and have great advice on this thread--it's all been very welcome.

 

But no, I personally don't need to hear again that the American dream doesn't apply to me and my kids.

 

That said I do sincerely appreciate all the great suggestions and empathetic posts here, which I will summarize (note that ROFL @ Tsuga for clarifying is not helpful, but hey, way to share the love):

 

1. Liberal arts colleges in the midwest and other parts of the country may have far greater endowments and (to put it bluntly) lower standards than the ones in your area so branch out;
2. Service academies are a great way to combine service and the highest level of education without serving in the military prior to college (a pitfall many soldiers face, ask me how I know :( )
3. You don't have to pay it all at once so do what you can;
4. Even the most well-off people on this board who regularly post about what I'd consider a very healthy, financially stable lifestyle haven't saved the amounts I'm looking for;
5. ​Our CCs are incredibly expensive (even if our state U is average) so maybe there is another way, like CC in another state.

All that has been helpful but it's not disagreeing that fundamentally, college costs are insane. Whatever I may disagree with people about, at least most everyone has tried to be helpful and I appreciate it.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Tsuga

[Tsuga]

Tsuga,

 

I must have missed the JAWM when I responded. I am so sorry; I try to honor those requests.

 

FWIW, I felt the same (I think) frustration last year. I had posted on the college board about my fear regarding college. I got a range of experience; much of it not helpful. Some was "get good scholarships" with test scores, specifically. That was NOT an option with my dd (she does not test well.) I got push back on that - how can a person have a GPA north of 4.0 and "not test well." I got "military" suggestions, which is not an option for my dd who has juvenile idiopathic arthritis, and then I got questioned on her career choice (nursing.)  I remember feeling so very frustrated and not HEARD.

 

I want you to know I hear you. It IS a reality check, and the expectation of college and the American dream are set ups.

 

Joanne, I just did not want people to waste time thinking, "How can I explain to Tsuga that there are things other than four-year-universities out there and that it was wrong of her to hope to provide for her kids anyway." I realize I just put it up.

 

I remember commenting on your daughter's choice thread--I think she had made a great choice but was concerned because it was so physical. Unfortunately I did not point out that there are less physical nursing careers out there and felt bad about that later, but I think you rightly decided not to go back to that.

 

So I am sorry too. I did hear your reply, but I have continued to think about your daughter, how she is doing, whether she found a nursing track that would work for her. But I didn't stalk you or anything so I don't actually know. I hope it worked out.

[Tsuga]

I notice that you've changed the title of this thread to include "JAWM," and I promise I will respect that once I respond to a couple of things here, just for clarity.

 

First, everyone has a chance at a four-year college/university. As I mentioned in my lengthy post about my own son, we had no savings to speak of, don't qualify for need-based aid, have a kid who had an acceptable transcript and above-average-but-not-stellar test scores who is currently a residential student at a private, four-year university for which we pay an out-of-pocket amount I can cover working part-time. He had dual enrollment credits, which may have figured into his admission, but he entered as a freshman.

 

So, where are they? Right here. I have one. I know for sure that I'm not the only parent on these very boards who has one. 

 

And he did have a choice. He was admitted to nine similar schools in four states. Three of them offered him financial packages comparable to the one he accepted at the school of his choice, but others were close enough that I think it likely we might have been able to negotiate for more scholarship money if he had cared to pursue it.

 

I understand the panic. There's a lot of catastrophizing in the media and a real problem with tunnelvision, focusing on a relatively narrow band of "good" (read "prestigious brand name") schools with the assumption that the education available there is necessarily better than other, less household-name options. As I said, I'm not in any way attempting to dismiss or ridicule the concern. I'm simply trying to reassure you that the situation really isn't as bleak as it may seem.

 

I do appreciate your suggestions. It's a good reminder. I wasn't clear at the beginning that while I'm aware there are many paths, what I was really amazed about was that this might not be one of them (four year college, parents pay, live at home).

 

I'm glad it worked out for your son.

 

I certainly am not a brand-name person and Harvard is only on the radar as a self-deprecating joke at this point, as you can see in the OP.

 

I had hoped that at least my kids would have the chance to go to school here in Seattle, if that makes sense. Anywhere else involves living expenses. I think that also wasn't clear: that our live-at-home options, amazingly, suddenly seemed out of reach. For a family that saves $200+ per month from birth (this would be equivalent savings) doesn't it seem that a local state U should be within reach if you live at home?

 

Apparently, few others think so.

 

So that's why I changed this to a JAWM.

 

I hope my daughters get the aid your son got. I hope so. God knows we are working at it.

[Arcadia]

OP,

 

I don't know the divorce laws of your state so I have no idea if you can petition for college expenses to be added to child support. Legal fees may make it not worthwhile though.

 

My cousin who is still a business owner abandoned his first wife and kids while the kids were preteens. The divorce settlement included child support until each child turn 25 and tertiary education fully paid by the dad. It was a no contest clear cut abandonment and infidelity case though.

 

What I was told when opening my kids bank accounts is that their money will impact aid a lot more than my bank account balance. So their money is parked under my name with them getting the money if I die before they turn 18.

 

Also if I have a mortgage at the time my kids apply for college, I could downpay my mortgage to reduce the amount of fluid cash in my bank account. You can play around with the net price calculators at private colleges website to see what the effect is when changing variables.

 

ETA:

My nearest state U has a estimate cost of attendence at $12k for staying at home (for free). So your $200 per month estimate would cover three years of expenses. While if you continue with the $200 equivalent after your child start college, that would be $7,200 towards 4th year expenses.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Arcadia

[Tsuga]

No, I really don't think I would. I have a great sense of personal dignity, not just for myself, but for others as well. FWIW, I don't find sports that intentionally harm others to be acceptable, either. 

 

Did you ever wait tables?

[Tsuga]

OP,

 

I don't know the divorce laws of your state so I have no idea if you can petition for college expenses to be added to child support. Legal fees may make it not worthwhile though.

 

He is paying the maximum he can. I will absolutely go to court if that should cease to be the case. At present, he is paying ore than the court-mandated amount and I think it would be wrong at this point to bring college into it.

 

 

What I was told when opening my kids bank accounts is that their money will impact aid a lot more than my bank account balance. So their money is parked under my name with them getting the money if I die before they turn 18.

 

Yes, I think I read this from you previously and it actually saved my DSD a lot--her grandmother is saving the money in a special bond.

Also if I have a mortgage at the time my kids apply for college, I could downpay my mortgage to reduce the amount of fluid cash in my bank account. You can play around with the net price calculators at private colleges website to see what the effect is when changing variables.

 

That is a really interesting idea... except it depends on fluid cash, LOL! Seriously though, great thought. Maybe we should just pay the mortgage and forget college savings for the time being?

 

[Tsuga]

It was the mid 90s. I think it was either '95 or '96. I had to beg, plead and grovel to get my parents to give me their tax returns showing that they did not claim me on their taxes, and had not since I turned 18. It's been a long time, but what I recall is writing a letter detailing the situation and absolutely having to supply those tax returns. I was fortunate that my parents agreed to do so. I had fully supported myself for those four years before school, as well, though, and that may have made a difference. I don't know. It was not a fun time in my life, it was quite a struggle.

 

ETA: I know it's not an option anymore.

 

That was not an option in the 1990s either, though. I tried. My mom wasn't claiming me and they said it didn't matter.

 

I think your friend did you a HUGE favor.

[Arcadia]

Cornell website has a nice explanation with examples.

http://finaid.cornell.edu/types-aid/financial-aid-examples

 

My kids have slightly more than $20k each and we are considered middle class so that is why fluid cash has an impact.

 

ETA:

Northwestern example

http://undergradaid.northwestern.edu/types-of-aid/aid-package-examples.html

Edited November 26, 2015 by Arcadia

[unsinkable]

What is the point of your thread other than to mock me?

 

I realized I should not have made people think that I was looking for advice--obviously someone who has paid for 6 years of her own college, a divorce, and made her way from 18 on doesn't need financial advice other than "you should have had your parents give you more".

 

I didn't want people to waste time explaining how Community College works to me. It's really a their waste of time. I know how it works, so I wanted to clarify that I'm not looking for that type of advice.

 

Do you do anything but mock on these thread? Literally, can you go back in your post history and see if you have provided any actual advice or suggestion? Or empathy? Or even a balanced perspective? Because all I see is you mocking. It's not just rude. I don't mind that people disagree with me and have great advice on this thread--it's all been very welcome.

 

But no, I personally don't need to hear again that the American dream doesn't apply to me and my kids.

 

That said I do sincerely appreciate all the great suggestions and empathetic posts here, which I will summarize (note that ROFL @ Tsuga for clarifying is not helpful, but hey, way to share the love):

 

• Liberal arts colleges in the midwest and other parts of the country may have far greater endowments and (to put it bluntly) lower standards than the ones in your area so branch out;
• Service academies are a great way to combine service and the highest level of education without serving in the military prior to college (a pitfall many soldiers face, ask me how I know :( )
• You don't have to pay it all at once so do what you can;
• Even the most well-off people on this board who regularly post about what I'd consider a very healthy, financially stable lifestyle haven't saved the amounts I'm looking for;
• ​Our CCs are incredibly expensive (even if our state U is average) so maybe there is another way, like CC in another state.

All that has been helpful but it's not disagreeing that fundamentally, college costs are insane. Whatever I may disagree with people about, at least most everyone has tried to be helpful and I appreciate it.

The posts about abusing children for money were DISTURBING and OFFENSIVE.

 

And after people told you that, you added Just Agree With Me.

 

That is a ROFL moment. Like a laugh or cry moment. I chose laugh.

[unsinkable]

These are not mocking.

 

They're horrified.

 

The one I deleted include info from my only family, which I decided not to share. It was more horror at the suggestion to abuse children and separate a family for money.

 

Then...oops! JAWM!

 

NO. I won't. Not in this situation.

 

What??? No one I know, working class or otherwise, would abuse or punch their kids and not see them for four years for some kind of chance at college aid.

 

This hurts my head.

 

This is bizarre. Just out there crazy.

.

[unsinkable]

Tsuga,

 

I must have missed the JAWM when I responded. I am so sorry; I try to honor those requests.

 

FWIW, I felt the same (I think) frustration last year. I had posted on the college board about my fear regarding college. I got a range of experience; much of it not helpful. Some was "get good scholarships" with test scores, specifically. That was NOT an option with my dd (she does not test well.) I got push back on that - how can a person have a GPA north of 4.0 and "not test well." I got "military" suggestions, which is not an option for my dd who has juvenile idiopathic arthritis, and then I got questioned on her career choice (nursing.) I remember feeling so very frustrated and not HEARD.

 

I want you to know I hear you. It IS a reality check, and the expectation of college and the American dream are set ups.

I started another thread about what it means to not test well because many, many people say that...and then add their GPAs are fine/OK/high. Not just you

 

You joined the thread I started, not vice versa.

 

I didn't participate in your JAWM thread about your DD.

 

You also said I shouldn't even be on the college board with a kid who didn't test well universally.

[JFSinIL]

Random thoughts as I wait for the newspaper to be delivered (can't stand not reading an actual paper in the morning) - while I and others recommend cc as a cheaper initial option, when we were researching schools for our first kid, it became apparent that for a potential STEM major cc might not be the best option, as many four-year and grad programs prefer the undergrad work be all done at a four year school. So if you STEM kid might want to get into a good grad school or med school, not to mention just transfer into a good school as a junior, might be best to not start out at the local cc.

 

Now about folks not wanting to do the FAFSA or submit tax forms so their kids can qualify for financial aid - I have known a few. Middle dd's long-time boyfriend is in just such a situation, and while he has been able to afford a class now and then at the local cc, he has to wait until he is 24 to be able to get the PELL grants etc. to afford to get started more steadily at the local cc. His folks do not make much, and he would certainly qualify for maximum PELL and other grants, but the attitude he faces is "we did not need college, just go get a job". :-(

[Spryte]

That was not an option in the 1990s either, though. I tried. My mom wasn't claiming me and they said it didn't matter.

 

I think your friend did you a HUGE favor.

 

My friend was a peer advisor and fellow student.  I don't think he had the power to pull strings or do a *huge* favor.  Maybe the things I cannot post here on a public forum were the tipping point.  My life was not pretty.

 

I'm not sure what to say.  You asked how people went to school themselves, and that's how I went.  I'm sorry it played out differently for you.   :grouphug:

[Guest2]

I paid for college by choosing an inexpensive public Liberal arts school. I didn't get much for scholarships, but did get lots of work study and aid(no grants). Generally I worked about two non -work study jobs on average while attending school , with Air National Guard as one of them. I also took out unheard of (at the time ) loans for grad school. A very foolish choice, as I could have established residency and paid in state rates for grad school.

 

The Air Force paid off almost half of my loans, and i got another big chunk paid off by working with disabled kids( unexpected bonus for working my dream job). My husband had significant (for the time) loans too. When we were both out of school, we lived pretty frugally for years to get those things paid off.

 

We are hoping our kids don't have to go the loan route, and we will help them as much as we can. There are requirements to our family scholarship though, because we didn't want them to take this opportunity for granted. So far it looks like we are paying full tuition. We can do it now, and hopefully can continue, or we can help them figure out a way .

Editted to add...sorry , I had written this earlier and hadn't posted. Looks like the thread has moved on. It is so expensive, and it stinks that OP will be saving so much and still have not quite enough.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Silver Brook

[Matryoshka]

Also if I have a mortgage at the time my kids apply for college, I could downpay my mortgage to reduce the amount of fluid cash in my bank account. You can play around with the net price calculators at private colleges website to see what the effect is when changing variables.

 

This was pretty much our whole college savings plan - we took out a 15-yr mortgage when we bought the house.  We figured paying waaay less interest on the mortgage would be a much better return than anything the market would pay if we saved and/or invested the money (it's stunning how much interest you pay over and above what the loan is actually for... it's not the principal plus the principal times the interest rate they charge you.  It's waaay more because they have you paying off almost entirely interest for years and years before the principal starts really getting paid down.  I still haven't figured out how that's legal).  When the mortgage was paid off, all that money that had gone to the mortgage payment got saved.

 

Not that that comes close to paying for 3 kids for university.  Here's another thing, Tsuga, the EFC does not expect most of the college payments to come from what you've saved.  Almost all of it is supposed to come out of your income - at least that's the way the formula works.  You're expected to pay pretty much half your salary (or more?) - they only figure in about 5% of your savings per year.  The kicker is, most people can't afford to pay over half their salary to college payments - what about food, taxes, clothes, bills, paying for lessons and stuff for those pesky kids you still have at home?  So you do need more in savings - but the formula thinks somehow you're going to suddenly have half your income to give to the college.  Oh, yeah, and you're also supposed to save for retirement somehow while suffering this huge income loss!

[Arcadia]

So you do need more in savings - but the formula thinks somehow you're going to suddenly have half your income to give to the college. Oh, yeah, and you're also supposed to save for retirement somehow while suffering this huge income loss!

The net price calculators are asking for AGI. After maximising the 401k since hubby's employer contribution is good, our AGI is lower too.

 

Since my kids are a year apart, the numbers on the calculator do change for when I put in the scenario of my younger entering college.

 

We started with an interest only home loan and just use extra cash each month to downpay principal. That way we have a cash buffer every month if needed while still getting principal down if we didn't need that buffer. I do amortise at least once a month though to see the effect of down paying principal.

[amyx4]

Middle dd's long-time boyfriend is in just such a situation, and while he has been able to afford a class now and then at the local cc, he has to wait until he is 24 to be able to get the PELL grants etc. to afford to get started more steadily at the local cc. His folks do not make much, and he would certainly qualify for maximum PELL and other grants, but the attitude he faces is "we did not need college, just go get a job". :-(

This breaks my heart. This could've been me. My parents always waited till April 15 to do their taxes. And did other things to subvert my attempts at earning a degree. I went to a state school by working/paying my way through. College gave me such a boost up and out of the life I came from. I worry about kids who want to do something with their lives and are now stuck waiting till they turn 24.

[Guest]

FWIW, I have one child who doesn't test well. The GPA is in the toilet at the moment. One can only get so many 50s on a Biology test before the whole grade tanks. I haven't received back national test scores yet, but I am a big believer in playing the cards you have. As such, I don't have many eggs in the Merit Scholar basket. *Le sigh* We can't all be academics.

[regentrude]

The EFC does not expect most of the college payments to come from what you've saved.  Almost all of it is supposed to come out of your income - at least that's the way the formula works.  You're expected to pay pretty much half your salary (or more?) - they only figure in about 5% of your savings per year.  The kicker is, most people can't afford to pay over half their salary to college payments -

 

The bolded is not correct. The way income is factored into the EFC is quite complicated (for details see here)

http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/090214EFCFormulaGuide1516.pdf

 

but the maximum that is considered is $8,547+ 47% of the portion of the Adjusted Available Income (AAI) that exceeds $31,701.

The AAI is calculated by subtracting allowances and taxes from the actual income which is explained very well here:

https://ifap.ed.gov/sfahandbooks/attachments/0203Vol1Ch6.pdf

 

The Income Protection Allowance depends on the family size. For a family of four with one college student, it is $27,040 - which is subtracted from the income before obtaining the AAI.

 

You really need to run an EFC calculator or fill out the sample worksheet to get an idea of the EFC for your particular family income/asset situation. Here is a good estimate that does not consider assets:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/11/28/2015-guide-to-fafsa-css-profile-college-financial-aid-and-expected-family-contribution-efc/

So, for example with an Adjusted Gross Income of $80k and two children, the EFC would be $11,312.

Edited November 26, 2015 by regentrude

[Joules]

The bolded is not correct. The way income is factored into the EFC is quite complicated (for details see here)

http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/090214EFCFormulaGuide1516.pdf

 

but the maximum that is considered is $8,547+ 47% of the portion of the Adjusted Available Income (AAI) that exceeds $31,701.

The AAI is calculated by subtracting allowances and taxes from the actual income which is explained very well here:

https://ifap.ed.gov/sfahandbooks/attachments/0203Vol1Ch6.pdf

 

The Income Protection Allowance depends on the family size. For a family of four with one college student, it is $27,040 - which is subtracted from the income before obtaining the AAI.

 

You really need to run an EFC calculator or fill out the sample worksheet to get an idea of the EFC for your particular family income/asset situation. Here is a good estimate that does not consider assets:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/11/28/2015-guide-to-fafsa-css-profile-college-financial-aid-and-expected-family-contribution-efc/

So, for example with an Adjusted Gross Income of $80k and two children, the EFC would be $11,312.

 

Very interesting reading through the government forms, though there may need to be a reality check by them:

 

Second, the parents’ discretionary net worth is calculated by subtracting the education savings and asset protection allowance (Table A5) from the parents’ net worth. As is the case with income, this is done to protect a portion of assets. The allowances for ages 40 through 65 approximate the present cost of an annuity which, when combined with Social Security benefits, would provide at age 65 a moderate level of living for a retired couple or single person. 

 

At our age it is just over $30,000, I sure would love it if they would provide me with said annuity for that price. 

 

(I was reading for interest, as we just have one child and a decent income, our EFC is way above what we can afford, so we are only looking at merit aid or cheap state options.)

 

Oh, and OP: Yes, I just agree with you college costs are simply crazy!

[Matryoshka]

The bolded is not correct. The way income is factored into the EFC is quite complicated (for details see here)

http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/090214EFCFormulaGuide1516.pdf

 

but the maximum that is considered is $8,547+ 47% of the portion of the Adjusted Available Income (AAI) that exceeds $31,701.

The AAI is calculated by subtracting allowances and taxes from the actual income which is explained very well here:

https://ifap.ed.gov/sfahandbooks/attachments/0203Vol1Ch6.pdf

 

The Income Protection Allowance depends on the family size. For a family of four with one college student, it is $27,040 - which is subtracted from the income before obtaining the AAI.

 

You really need to run an EFC calculator or fill out the sample worksheet to get an idea of the EFC for your particular family income/asset situation. Here is a good estimate that does not consider assets:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/11/28/2015-guide-to-fafsa-css-profile-college-financial-aid-and-expected-family-contribution-efc/

So, for example with an Adjusted Gross Income of $80k and two children, the EFC would be $11,312.

 

You're right that I was a bit high on that estimate...  Just seems like that much!  But ... we have run FAFSA/EFC calculators a number of times, as well as a bunch of Net Price Calculators at various schools, and they all come up with a way higher number than that nifty Forbes chart suggests.  Like close to double.  The EFC that we get is not over 1/2, but it is over 1/3 of our annual income.  This may be partly because we did save, but even when we pretend we have almost no savings (we have run the calculators that way for jollies), it's still waaaay higher than any of those numbers.  I wish that number were our EFC - that we could afford. 

 

One school we ran the NPC for wanted for us to pay almost $10K over that EFC number - and we will have two kids in college at the same time, so our EFC per kid should be about half.  So, they wanted almost $10K more than what's listed on that chart our EFC for one kid in college for one of two.  It did calculate our total EFC (for both kids together) to be the same as all the other calculators - so still, almost double what that chart suggests.  And that school supposedly gives out good aid.  Not sure if their calculator is broken or what...

 

Another thing is that what's put aside to be 'protected' and the EFC calculations in general do not take into account at all if you live in a high COL area.  Sure, if we lived in Kansas on this salary, we'd be swimming in the dough.  But we don't, and we aren't. 

 

And... while 401(k) accounts are not included in your savings for EFC, the amount you put in is counted as income the year you receive it, it's just that the next year the money isn't counted as savings.  So your yearly contribution to a 401(k) does not reduce your annual income for EFC.  :glare:

 

So, yeah, state schools and/or merit aid. 

 

Edited November 27, 2015 by Matryoshka

[shage]

Our EFC is over 50%.  :-(

 

Back story is dh purchased inexpensive acreage with a fixer upper tiny farm house prior to our marriage.  Eventually we converted it to a rental because we needed a plan to help financially support his parents.  For many (personal and complicated) reasons, we need to hold on to the property and not transfer title to them.  Problem is, value has quintupled due to the shrewdness of his decision and dumb luck.  Value is on paper only.

 

We have not figured out a way to shelter that from EFC as there is no break for elder care.  The assumption is that you financially support your children not your parents.  (If anyone has a possible work around to this, I am all ears.)

 

It is frustrating because the formulas make sweeping generalizations that don't account for individual situations.

 

My son got his first acceptance this week for a private school with enough merit aid (thus far) that makes it approximately the same price as an in-state school.  He will have the opportunity to interview for more merit scholarship in January/February.  I am guessing that is the route he will take.  If the numbers work out like I think they will, it will be tight but doable.  Such is life.

[TammyS]

Our EFC is over 50%.  :-(

 

Back story is dh purchased inexpensive acreage with a fixer upper tiny farm house prior to our marriage.  Eventually we converted it to a rental because we needed a plan to help financially support his parents.  For many (personal and complicated) reasons, we need to hold on to the property and not transfer title to them.  Problem is, value has quintupled due to the shrewdness of his decision and dumb luck.  Value is on paper only.

 

We have not figured out a way to shelter that from EFC as there is no break for elder care.  The assumption is that you financially support your children not your parents.  (If anyone has a possible work around to this, I am all ears.)

 

It is frustrating because the formulas make sweeping generalizations that don't account for individual situations.

 

My son got his first acceptance this week for a private school with enough merit aid (thus far) that makes it approximately the same price as an in-state school.  He will have the opportunity to interview for more merit scholarship in January/February.  I am guessing that is the route he will take.  If the numbers work out like I think they will, it will be tight but doable.  Such is life.

 

If the private school is religious, send them a letter, or call, and explain your situation.  Maybe, maybe they will up his institutional aid.  Religious schools tend, sometimes, to look with more understanding on these sorts of things (particularly if the school is not too large and the red tape easier to work through).

[shage]

If the private school is religious, send them a letter, or call, and explain your situation.  Maybe, maybe they will up his institutional aid.  Religious schools tend, sometimes, to look with more understanding on these sorts of things (particularly if the school is not too large and the red tape easier to work through).

 

Thanks for the suggestion.  Will try that.