How do you parent that child who NEEDS attention, whether it's good or bad?

[Samiam]

I'm at the end of my rope with DS12.  The fact that he's TWELVE, and going through THAT stage....combined with HIS personality......one of us just isn't going to make it.

 

He's the middle child.  He's always been that child who made us work hard at being a parent...that child who proved us wrong on when we thought we were the best parents, that child who just was "that child".  

 

  When he was younger, like a toddler, he was always kinda the pest to older DS.   We always just chalked it up to him wanting his older brother's attention.  Older DS kinda always disliked him...there's 5 years difference between the two, and a HUGE difference in personality.  Hit older DS, bit older DS...just kinda of the pain-in-the-butt little brother.  

 

Also kind of a pain of a toddler.  The kind where if you told him not to do something...he'd look at you and purposefully do exactly what you told him not to do.  Like he KNEW he'd get in trouble and not care.

 

On the flip side, he's always been my most loving child.  The boy who always wanted to cuddle, wanted to sit on your lap, wanted to play with you, wanted to sleep in our bed, so snuggly.

 

It dawned on me at some point in this journey it was about the attention...and I read a book at some point, that said to focus on giving the positive attention, because otherwise the child will do whatever they need to do to get the attention, even it if means the negative attention.  And to not do the negative attention...to not make a big deal about the negative actions, within reason, of course.  So we've parented with that philosophy since he was a toddler.

 

Then add in third DS...so now this attention seeking DS is a middle child.  As third DS grows up, he idolizes his older brothers.  He at one point said that middle DS was "his best friend".   But middle DS uses that to his advantage ,to manipulate his little brother, to verbally bully him (not alot of physical violence, that just doesn't happen around here), to put him down all the time.  To just hammer him all the time...like if there's any weakness or mistake that third DS has made in life, DS12 is sure to bring it up and hammer it over and over.

 

So here we are...DS17...he's kinda outgrown his whole dislike of middle DS....though they just don't really spend alot of time together unless we are all together as a family.   Middle DS is twelve.  Youngest DS is 9.    The relationship between DS12 and DS9 is as bad as it's ever been.   It's like DS12 feels like he has to compete with DS9, and his way to win is to verbally bash DS9 constantly.   DS9 no longer calls DS12 his best friend, but says he's a "jerk".    We are careful that we try to be fair and not take sides...but honestly when they are fighting....yeah, 9 times out of 10...it's because DS12 IS A JERK!   I mean, he's just so rude to his brother, to mean, and hurtful.  He'll do just things for no reason...like take something that is DS9's and hide it.   Go into DS9's room and turn the light switch off while DS9 is reading.   Turn off the TV as DS9 is watching it.  Of course he doesn't do that while I am in the room....waits till it's just those two. 

 

I almost still feel like it's still about the attention though.  Cuz what happens is that DS9 makes a huge deal about whatever DS12 does or says to him....it's a big drama.   We've told DS9 that if he didn't make such a big deal about it, it wouldn't be half as fun for DS12...to ignore him, to act like it doesn't bother him.    He's not successful at that much.  So DS12 gets that attention he's seeking. 

 

I just don't know how we can fix this.  I mean, we've talked with DS12...we've praised him, we know he can be a kind and loving person....he's Mr. Popular when he's out with friends.    But gosh, I somehow feel like this is a huge personality glitch...to need such attention that you are willing to be a bully to get it...I mean, it's kinda really horrible how he treats his brother...and now he's just so mouthy and rude to me and DH, everything is a constant argument and it's all OUR fault...I think that is the pre-teen hormone thing kicking in.  Sure, we've done the whole grounding thing...take away all electronics, not going outside with friends (that's his big thing...he loves to go outside with friends)...and that fixes it for the grounding period, but then it's right back to the same old thing.   At this point, I feel like I'm always ON him about this...and it's just a constant conversation...and then I realize that I'm just giving him negative attention...but gosh, how can I give positive attention when he's just constantly...well...a jerk!!  (And no, we don't call him that to his face...we don't even allow our children to call each other those names.....though they still try to).  As I said to him  "No one in your family says those mean things to you (you are dumb, you are fat, you are ugly), etc...why do you think you need to say them to your brother???"  I mean, we just are NOT verbally abusive around here....I've always thought that your home should be your safety zone...that we can't control what happens in the rest of the world, but you can always come home and know that you will be treated right, and with love.  

 

Will this ever get better?  Did you successfully raise a child who was always desperate for attention?  Of course we went through a pre-teen thing with our oldest DS...but he's just a different personality, and his issues never were about his brothers, nor as constantly BAD.   Did the sibling relationships ever get better?  I'm kinda sad to see how these relationships between my boys is going.  DS17 basically ignores or avoids DS12.....though he's a pretty good big brother to DS9.   DS12 and DS9 have moments when they get along...must 90% of the time it's constant bickering.  And then gosh, poor DS9...to have to grown up being constantly bashed by his brother, constantly put down.   It's horrible.

 

I dunno, maybe this is normal?  Having such drastically different personalities in the same house...maybe it's going to be like this? 

[texasmama]

When things get to the place at which your interactions, thoughts, and feelings about one of your kids are mostly negative, it is time to pour some time and attention into the relationship bank.  What that means on a practical level is spend some time alone with ds12 doing things that you both enjoy, preferably away from home.  Do this consistently for a couple of weeks.  Ignore the negative stuff he throws at his sibs.  Ditch the consequences for the minor stuff.  See if this helps push the reset button.  You don't have to do a lot of talking.  Just do this.  In fact, less talking is better.  At the end of this, you should both feel better.  ETA:  Don't see him as a project but as your kid and just concentrate on enjoying him.

 

I have a middle child who is also a ds12 so I get it. 

[barnwife]

I am mostly a lurker to this site and I often think texasmama is wise. But I want to disagree with 1 point in her post.

I was the younger sibling in this scenario. Whatever you do, do not ignore the negative stuff thrown at siblings. My parents tried many things, including that. Every time they did that it harmed our relationship. Of course, what harmed it the most is when the eventually completely gave up trying to parent her.

FWIW, today I am estranged from that sister. I truly do not understand why my parents never seemed to give a darn about me in this situation. They never seemed to protect me.

And when I finally tried to stand up to her, they tried to bully me into "accepting her as she is." And, silly me, I put up with it for a couple more years before cutting all ties with her.

Due to my experience, I respectfully disagree with that part of her post.

[texasmama]

Barnwife, thank you for the opportunity to clarify. I meant ignore the negative for the two weeks and see if this pushes the reset button for the middle child. If a concerted effort changes nothing for the better, it is probably time to get some outside help.

[Samiam]

When things get to the place at which your interactions, thoughts, and feelings about one of your kids are mostly negative, it is time to pour some time and attention into the relationship bank.  What that means on a practical level is spend some time alone with ds12 doing things that you both enjoy, preferably away from home.  Do this consistently for a couple of weeks.  Ignore the negative stuff he throws at his sibs.  Ditch the consequences for the minor stuff.  See if this helps push the reset button.  You don't have to do a lot of talking.  Just do this.  In fact, less talking is better.  At the end of this, you should both feel better.  ETA:  Don't see him as a project but as your kid and just concentrate on enjoying him.

 

I have a middle child who is also a ds12 so I get it. 

 

Thank you, that is good advice, and actually kinda what I told DH this evening.   I remembered that DH and oldest DS used to go out and have that "boy time", during this pre-teen stage of DS's life, mostly it was sports...cuz that DS and DH are way into sports.  So it was often DH that took him to practices, or even did practice just the two of them.  Even now the two of them are all in for NFL football on Sundays/Mon nights.  So that DS had alot of Dad time during that rough age of pre-teen.   But DS12 doesn't really have that in common with DH...actually DS12 is anti-any-sport lol.  But I was thinking, and told DH, that maybe the two of them can just go do other things together...like just go to Starbucks and sit outside and chat, or go to the store and look at Legos (DH and DS12 are both into Legos).   Just simple things, for an hour or two, but just the two of them.  

 

Thing is, I didn't think to include myself in that equation...honestly I was thinking that it would be give me a break from DS12 so I could breath without the stress for an hour or two.  Maybe I need to rethink that and put myself back into the equation.   Maybe a rotation...just the two of them...then next time, all three of us.   Maybe him getting that one-on-one attention will also help him feel less competative to his younger brother and therefore less of a bully.

[catz]

Barnwife, thank you for the opportunity to clarify. I meant ignore the negative for the two weeks and see if this pushes the reset button for the middle child. If a concerted effort changes nothing for the better, it is probably time to get some outside help.

 

:iagree:  I still agree with texasmama.  That doesn't mean deny or ignore the needs of the youngest.  Barnwife's sibling may have felt she never got positive attention from her parents, it never resolved, and that led to a lifetime of creating conflict as a habit.  That fits with the story of feeling like her parents never cared for her either.  Maybe they just weren't super engaged parents at all.  Because ONE kid is behaving worse during a particular stage, doesn't mean you should write that kid off.  I think in most cases this type of behavoir will be a phase if it's treated well.

 

I would call each kid on bad behavoir every time.  I would set ONE expectation in terms of behavoir and insist on that from BOTH kids.  One thing I have consistently set a tone of competition and a negative relationship between siblings is when one is set up as the "big kid" and need to concede to the smaller kid regularly.  But I'd be looking for positive ways to connect to all your kids as individuals, and I'd try being over the top on it with the 12 year old for a bit and see if something happens or you can at least get a rapport going about it. 

 

I'd also make sure 12 year old has enough outlets.  12 can be an age where kids are craving their own peer group and activities.  I'd make sure the 9 and 12 year old were spending plenty of time outdoors and active to burn off some steam.

[Tsuga]

Our situation is similar but different.

 

I needed to let her get attention from others as well (this is crucial--I am not enough for her!) and maintain strict boundaries with mine at home.

 

As for modifying the personality / behavior:

 

On the one hand, I do try to get a lot of time with each kid and I agree that it's important.

 

On the other hand, unfortunately she is not an only child or a princess so she will just have to get over her demand for being the constant center of attention or suffer a lifetime of disappointment because that is not really looking to be in the cards for her.

 

I get how you can do it all and spend special time blah blah blah and for some kids it is just never enough! That is frustrating. In fact with my older one it seems to amplify it.

 

And at that point it's like... okay, so sorry this is a struggle for you, but look at us, we're people too, align your expectations with reality or learn to enjoy the constant disappointment because there is no future in which you are the center of the universe, sorry, charlie.

[TechWife]

Although some often think this is a default response, I really think your family needs counseling. I suggest that you and your husband go together to try to figure out a parenting strategy, but go to a family counselor that will know when and how to bring your children into the process. These patterns are long established in your family, and breaking them will not be easy, which is why I think some professional guidance is wise. 

 

 

[J-rap]

A thought from a different angle...

 

A sibling of mine had a very similar situation with their three boys.  It was also their middle son who caused them such despair and confusion, and for years they assumed it had to do with attention-seeking/middle child syndrome, etc.  Years later they finally discovered that he was on the autism spectrum.  They wish they had known this years earlier.  But, it certainly helped all of them so much to get this diagnosis;  it explained so many things.  He is an adult now and has a great relationship with his entire family, but he does have a difficult time with things that most people take for granted.

 

Anyway, don't know if you've ever considered that it could be something like this, but thought I'd pass that information along, in case it's helpful.

[Callie]

Maybe I am too old school but I don't think you are doing your son any favors by years of ignoring his bad behaviors.  Neither of his brothers like him and you want your dh to spend time with him so you can get a break from him these are serious red flags.  It won't be long before it will no longer matter if he is grounded from his friends because any quality friends will no longer want to hang out with him and he will seek out other like minded jerks and then the real trouble will begin.

 

I was the younger sibling in your example and haven't spoke to the parents (or brother) that allowed me to be bullied and verbally abused in many years.

[Melissa in Australia]

:iagree: callie

 

I haven't seen a child yet that responded very well to having all negative behaviour ignored and only good behaviour noticed. They never seem to learn that negative behaviour is not appropriate or even acceptable.

[barnwife]

Barnwife, thank you for the opportunity to clarify. I meant ignore the negative for the two weeks and see if this pushes the reset button for the middle child. If a concerted effort changes nothing for the better, it is probably time to get some outside help.

I figured you meant for a short period of time. Given my experience, I still can't support it. If the OP chooses that route, get younger sibling out of the house during that time. Is there a relative younger sibling can stay with for a few weeks? A camp they can go to during a "reset" period?

 

And the suggestion for outside help is a good one.

 

Does DS12 share a bedroom?

 

Sounds like they need some separation from one another, but they may already have that.

 

 

I was coming back this morning to say that these siblings absolutely should not share a room if at all possible. My middle sister and I did because in our family culture of course the oldest gets a room to him/herself. That's a privilege of being the oldest. Except...personality and behavior should play a role in that. Looking back, my older sisters would have been great roommates. And it would have given me a space away from the bad (frankly, abusive) behavior.

 

Heartlikealion is spot on in that assessment. 

[8circles]

Another younger sibling chiming in in agreement. This bad behavior shouldn't be ignored any longer. It makes you complicit in the abuse. Please don't.

 

I figured you meant for a short period of time. Given my experience, I still can't support it. If the OP chooses that route, get younger sibling out of the house during that time. Is there a relative younger sibling can stay with for a few weeks? A camp they can go to during a "reset" period?

 

And the suggestion for outside help is a good one.

 

I was coming back this morning to say that these siblings absolutely should not share a room if at all possible. My middle sister and I did because in our family culture of course the oldest gets a room to him/herself. That's a privilege of being the oldest. Except...personality and behavior should play a role in that. Looking back, my older sisters would have been great roommates. And it would have given me a space away from the bad (frankly, abusive) behavior.

 

Heartlikealion is spot on in that assessment.

[FO4UR]

There needs to be a strong boundary drawn to protect the younger sibling.  I have told my own children, "You will NOT lay a hand on my child!  You will NOT speak to my child like that!"  I have had to say that rather firmly a time or two.  I follow it up with, "Just like I will never allow anyone to hurt you, I will not allow you to hurt my other children."  

 

That boundary creates an atmosphere where the siblings can grow as friends.  It's a gift.  I think that ignoring it works if it's a rare occasion or if it harms no one.  Bullying a sibling is harmful.  Ignoring it is even more harmful.

 

 

We've gone through a period where my 12yo (must be partly the age) was not allowed to be alone in the same room with his little brother (9yo).  He was bullying and not taking my redirection.  So, if ds9 walked into a room and mom or dad wasn't there, ds12 had to quietly leave.  We did talk with ds9 about not abusing this restriction.  It was important to me to #1 not punish ds9 for ds12's behavior and #2 give ds12 a natural consequence that reflects what happens when grown people bully.  We call it abuse after a certain age.  

 

I have a few more rules/guidelines that encourage cooperation.  We have live in a small and rather safe community.  I feel comfy allowing them to ride their bikes and play if they are with a brother/sister or a buddy.  Getting along means they will always have someone to play.  If they are fighting at home, they are not allowed to go out and spread the misery.  They must show respect and kindness at home first.  If they are feeling frustrated or angry, they will never be punished for excusing themselves from the situation to calm down.  (Play lego, draw, sleep, climb a tree...but don't lash out.)

 

 

My 12yo needs more alone time, more autonomy.  We gave him a room in the basement.  I sort of feel bad for having a child in the basement, but he loves it down there.  In a busy house, that space is *his.*

 

 

He needs more attention, yes, and he's trying to grow into a new role as a Big Person in this family (not a little kid).  He can assist myself and his dad in adult work.  He has his eye on finding a way to make $.  We can assist him in gaining skill and tools so he can do that.  (lawn care, painting, fixing that hole in the drywall where you banged the door open...)

 

 

[DawnM]

  Years later they finally discovered that he was on the autism spectrum.  They wish they had known this years earlier.  But, it certainly helped all of them so much to get this diagnosis;  it explained so many things.  He is an adult now and has a great relationship with his entire family, but he does have a difficult time with things that most people take for granted.

 

 

 

 

This is my son who gets most of our attention.  He has Asperger's and will be sending me to an early grave.  Every day is hard.  He is oppositional, sometimes defiant, can be belligerent and angry.  However, ultimately, even though it is directed at us, it really is his own frustration with life in general.  He struggles internally every single day.

 

He is in therapy twice a week (once individual and once per week in group) and it is helping.

 

Meanwhile, I DO worry about how this is affecting my other two boys.  I stress about it daily.  My Aspie demands attention and sucks the life out of me sometimes.

 

Dawn

[Bambam]

I only have two children. I did have two older sisters.

 

We try not to ignore any bad behavior. Just no. You do not get to treat your sibling like that - or anyone else. That is just unacceptable. There will be consequences for that in an attempt to teach you that.

 

But, I struggle with the spending more time with a child who seems to be calling out for attention with negative behaviors. It seems to me that I am *rewarding* those negative behaviors with something positive (more time with mom - score!) and that the other child will see this and figure out how to enter that competition for mom time. 

 

I was the youngest. I still remember getting stuck between my two older sisters when they were having a hard time. I mean physically stuck in the back seat of a car between two angry sisters. Not pretty. Why was I being punished when I had done nothing wrong whatsoever? Oh, I knew I wasn't being punished, but it felt like it to me. 

 

So, I guess I'm saying just try to look at the situation through the eyes of each child. The oldest, the middle, and the youngest. They all see the situation differently.  Try to protect everyone. 

 

I don't have any answers, but you have my sympathy. Parenting isn't easy. At all.

[imagine.more]

Maybe I am too old school but I don't think you are doing your son any favors by years of ignoring his bad behaviors. Neither of his brothers like him and you want your dh to spend time with him so you can get a break from him these are serious red flags. It won't be long before it will no longer matter if he is grounded from his friends because any quality friends will no longer want to hang out with him and he will seek out other like minded jerks and then the real trouble will begin.

 

I was the younger sibling in your example and haven't spoke to the parents (or brother) that allowed me to be bullied and verbally abused in many years.

I completely agree. Allowing bad behavior towards siblings gives it time to develop into a bad habit and will affect the childrens' longterm relationship. I'm the oldest of 3 and my middle sister was often unkind to my brother as a kid, typical jealousy/personality conflict and really her just being an immature kid (aren't we all as kids!) but my parents turned a blind eye, wrote it off as they just didn't get along, and so my brother and sister haven't spoken in years, they have zero relationship whatsoever. They also allowed my sister and I to get away with being unkind and snobby to one another to a lesser degree and so my sister and I aren't as close as we'd like to be, there's just a lot of baggage and not many wonderful memories together to hold us together. We work hard at our relationship now.

 

If your sons' behavior is only improved while he is grounded I think he should be grounded longer. Next time he wants to go play with friends I'd say "Oh, I'm so sorry but you've been so unkind to your brother that right now we just can't trust you to be kind to friends and other people. You clearly don't know how to be a good brother/friend. We're going to help you work on your relationship with your brother and when we see long-term improvement there we'll let you start practicing being kind with friends as well." And if he asks how long he's grounded for just tell him until you see serious and long-lasting change on his part. I would not give any time period at all, and given his age and the longstanding pattern I would expect it to take a few months of being 'grounded' before he even makes a decent bit of progress.

 

12 is a good age to tackle this issue, he's old enough to reason with but young enough that you still have a lot of sway. By 16 the boys can just choose to ignore each other and it'll be too late, they may never develop a good relationship after that.

[Garga]

We're going through this here a bit, too.

 

My 12 year old can be sooooo mean with his words. DS9 will ask a question and ds12 will answer it with a "you're the stupidest person in the world" tone to his words. It just never seems to end. Some days I don't think a single positive thing comes out of his mouth. To say it's distressing is an understatement.

 

I like the poster who said she wouldn't let the 2 kids be together alone in the same room. I have a very small house, but I think that might be the way to go for a while. I've tried the, "Don't abuse MY child," I've gently pointed out the scriptures about a soft answer and controlling your tongue (not to cause shame, but just as an example of how we're supposed to live), I've tried logical lectures, and a few punitive actions (taking away electronics for a time; time alone if he can't be civil with us.)

 

I don't really like many of those options, but something has to change. It just has to.

 

So....for now I will implement "you can't be alone together" rule.

 

Also, I like how someone pointed out that at 12 they want to be with friends more and more. I'll try to get friends over to the house more often.

 

OP: I feel for you. I really do.

[Tsuga]

I want to add... my stepdaughter, at 12, was HORRID with words to her little brother. Like, unforgivably (if that were possible) horrid. She is nowhere near the autism spectrum. She is one of those perfectly normal kids you dream about: compliant, social, quiet but not too shy, blah blah blah.

 

So there is an age component to it as well. At 12, apparently your little siblings need to be wiped off the face of the earth, psychologically or physically...

[Anne in CA]

The junior high years bring out the evil in some people. They can/do outgrow it to some degree, but looking at it from the younger siblings point of view, how many people on this board are still hurt by nasty words spoken by a school mate at that age?  I still remember something horrid a teen said to me on the bus when I was nine. It is not okay to ignore unkind words directed at one of your children. Ever. 

[catz]

The junior high years bring out the evil in some people. They can/do outgrow it to some degree, but looking at it from the younger siblings point of view, how many people on this board are still hurt by nasty words spoken by a school mate at that age?  I still remember something horrid a teen said to me on the bus when I was nine. It is not okay to ignore unkind words directed at one of your children. Ever. 

 

I do think 6th to 8th can be the worst years for lots of kids.  Their bodies are changing and they might not be super great about themselves in general and it can lead to lashing out.  And again, I'm in favor of acknowledging and correcting bad behavoir every time.  My daughter has had some rough interactions with slightly older girls in the past year and it has been helpful to remind HER that puberty is a tough time for lots of kids and to not take anything kids say in anger too seriously.  Now she comes home from dance and says instead of "Suzie said blah blah blah mean thing" crying she comes home from dance and says "Suzie was super crabby today.  I think she has PMS."  with an eyeroll and doesn't take it nearly as personally. LOL.  It might be helpful to remind the 9 year old regularly some people have harder time dealing with emotions than others.  If the 12 year old has been extra cuddly, huggy, etc always he may be an extra sensitive kid.

 

I also think (again) that these are years to be creating positive memories and interactions with all your kids as you can.  These years are over quickly and if everything is perceived as negative, you may not have good adult relationships. Some kids won't be besties as adults and I think that is not something to try and steer.

 

I really do not think family counseling is a bad idea if it seems beyond your control and it's been going on a long time.  They may be able to ID if you have some overarching stuff going on in your house that is leading to that behavoir.  I really think kids act out for a reason.  They also may be able to ID if your son could use some developmental testing.

 

I am also wondering if you try reversing how you allow your 12 year old to have his "fun currency".  I might consider saying, if you respect everyone in the family all day, you may ... go out and play with friends, play an hour of video games, etc ...  I have done that at points.  I would make sure he has an OUT if he needs a cooling off period though, like a walk around the block or some time in his room alone.  I don't think it's fair to ask a 12 year old to be a ray of sunshine all day every day.  But a 12 year old can respect others.

 

[texasmama]

Taking a run at explaining a "hard reset".  (I have not made it through the entire thread, but I note the concern of ignoring bad behavior from one sibling to another.)

 

No, it is not okay to ignore ugliness from one sibling to another as a long-term parenting strategy.  

 

During a "hard reset", you essentially do a fruit basket turnover and change as many interactions and patterns as possible.  

 

I would never advise ignoring physical violence.  My understanding is that the 12 yo ds is verbally rude to the 9 yo ds.  This has been ongoing and is a behavioral pattern and habit.  

 

What has been tried:  Punishments, restrictions from seeing friends, verbal correction.  All of this has been ineffective in changing the interactions.

 

OP is at a place at which most (?) of her interactions with her 12 yo are negative.  None of her attempts to change his behavior have worked.

 

A "hard reset" involves a complete change of as many dynamics, actions, interactions and patterns as possible over a short time in an attempt to change the negative patterns.  Because we are dealing with a child, these are patterns which are more amenable to change than an adult with many years into the patterns.

 

Yes to upping the supervision between the 9 yo and 12 yo.  In particular, keeping the 9 yo in eyesight of mom would be advisable.

 

I would speak to the 9 yo and tell him that you recognize his brother is ugly to him and you are trying to do some things to change this.

 

If no change or improvement is noted in two weeks, seek outside help.

 

I speak from a perspective of having personal (family of origin) experience with negative sibling interactions which were grossly mishandled by my parents and as a mom with years into working with negative sibling interactions.

 

Changing the parent-child relationship is the approach I would take initially.  No one parents well from a position of feeling negatively about a kid.  Punishments (and increasing punishments) will just go further down a path which has proven ineffective.  This problem did not begin overnight, and taking two weeks to attempt to change it by radically changing the approach is a reasonable thing to do prior to seeking outside help.  Seeking outside help is never a bad thing to do when a parent has reached the end of what she/he knows to do or any member of the family is being negatively impacted to the point of risking permanent damage.  Only the OP can really evaluate that.

 

I am not invested in everyone agreeing with my approach.  It is not a typical approach.  But I did want to respond and clarify.

[happi duck]

Some random thoughts from an adult who now realizes how a bully that was allowed to continue affected my whole life:

 

Imo, you should "take sides" when one side is hurting the other. "Fair" is everyone gets what they need *not* everyone gets the same.

 

Please don't place the burden on the bullied person. "He just wants attention. If *you* didn't make such a big deal he'd stop." Being hurt and being told you're in any way responsible for it is terrible.

 

It sounds like you see that your 12yo can behave like a kind, loving person but he isn't *being* a kind, loving person if he is being consistently cruel to his brother.

 

I hope things improve.

 

(Hugs)

[MysteryJen]

I have seen a "hard reset" work very well. When my kids were little, I was neighbors with a great mom with 8 kids. When her third child was 12, she was rude and mean to her siblings and only wanted to play with friends. So the parents did a couple of things. The girl was given fair warning to be nicer to her siblings or she would be grounded for the whole summer. She was grounded from her friends for the summer. She was also "hired" as her mom's right hand helper (mom was pg again). She was allowed to do whatever fun thing she wanted (movies, pool, etc) but only with siblings. It worked extremely well and by the time school rolled around, she was friends with her sisters and generally much more pleasant to be around.

 

I was very impressed with how well it worked.

[Jennifer132]

We have a very difficult middle child, different issues though. The only advice I can give is to say don't wait around hoping it'll change on its' own. If your son has always been a difficult child, he's not going to wake up one day and suddenly see the reasoning in all your conversations and admonishments to be kinder. If what you've been doing isn't working, make sure to break out of that pattern and do something different. It's easy to be so weighed down by the day to day that you fall back on your regular strategies (that aren't helping) and fall into bed hoping tomorrow will be different. I finally realized that, no, unless I changed something, tomorrow wouldn't be different. Seems obvious, but it was a bit of a revelation for me, and has stopped me many times since from trying the same thing again and expecting a different result.

[Tsuga]

If your sons' behavior is only improved while he is grounded I think he should be grounded longer. Next time he wants to go play with friends I'd say "Oh, I'm so sorry but you've been so unkind to your brother that right now we just can't trust you to be kind to friends and other people. You clearly don't know how to be a good brother/friend. We're going to help you work on your relationship with your brother and when we see long-term improvement there we'll let you start practicing being kind with friends as well." And if he asks how long he's grounded for just tell him until you see serious and long-lasting change on his part. I would not give any time period at all, and given his age and the longstanding pattern I would expect it to take a few months of being 'grounded' before he even makes a decent bit of progress.

 

 

Honestly, I wouldn't even phrase this as being grounded. I would just say--to me, rights come with responsibilities and until you treat your family like humans, we aren't going to have you as our ambassador out there in the world with friends. Why no sweetheart, it's actually not different: we're all people and until you get that, I'm just going to have to say no. I know it's tough but I believe in you, that you can control yourself and treat us all with respect."

 

That said, removing rights alone is not going to work and I'm sure we all recognize that. But by twelve, if the child cannot cognitively comprehend "other minds" and "other hearts" existing, then yes it is time for counseling. If the cognition is there but not the impulse control, time for impulse control training.

 

But what I suspect is that this is not connecting because the child is getting too much positive reinforcement through negative attention (my weakness as well). That has got to be removed with a rinse-repeat attitude because the center-of-attention is just too easy to get.

 

I also think the suggestions of sending away the other kids to a fun place, grandmas, camp, anything, without the kid who needs the reset, if it's really strong abuse, is not a bad idea.

 

Also, I use simple words. "You hurt him. That hurts. Stop now." Even with older kids. Because sometimes I don't think they get all the blah blah! They need it simple, like two-year-old language in a sense. "That hurts. Hurting is wrong. If you hurt, you leave the group. You hurt. Leave the group." Like, it sounds insanely stupid for a kid who might be able to do algebra, but really, I think they are missing the qualitative aspect of what they are doing, the pain they are causing because they are so wrapped up in themselves. They need it laid bare so they can make the connections.

[Samiam]

I've only had a few minutes to glance at all the responses...will have to come back and read through it all again more in depth after dinner.  But I did just want to clarify...it seems alot took my initial statement that we choose to ignore his negative actions.   I think perhaps I didn't word that quite right...cuz I knew I was getting long in my story to begin with. 

 

What I meant is when he was younger...I read that often parents see a child quietly playing and they don't want to bother them for fear of interupting that the peace and quiet....yet when the child is being loud, obnoxious, disobedient type of stuff...that is when the parent will acknowledge the child...so that child learns to get the parents attention they have to be loud, obxnoxious, disobedient.   So realizing he was an attention seeking kind of personality, even as a toddler, we made sure to praise him when he was doing the good things..."Oh look how nicely you are playing with your toys"  "I like how how you are sharing with your brother" "Can I play with you for a few minutes?"  etc etc...and when he'd do things that were negative, we'd not give it the attention, but specifically give the attention to the person he'd be bothering or hurting...for example...hit his older brother (and we are talking a 2-3 year old hitting his older brother...toddler issues....quietly tell him he should not hit his brother, but lavish the attention on the victim, asking if he was okay etc etc...the victim got the attention.  So the point was that the attention seeking child did not get the attention when he'd done something wrong, but he certainly was told he'd done something wrong.   We didn't blow up, starting yelling, get angry, etc etc.  Now keep in mind, this was our philosophy around the ages of 2-8ish.   In no way did we ever ignore the fact that he'd done something wrong, nor was it the case that he wasn't taught not to do those things.   In the case of hitting...cuz he was kind of a hitter in those toddler years....he eventually learned that was wrong and he stopped being a hitter by age 4 or so.  

 

Oh, and they all have their own rooms, another thing I saw mentioned a few times.

 

Again, I need to come back and read all the responses more in depth, as I just skimmed quickly.   Thanks for all the responses.

[FO4UR]

Taking a run at explaining a "hard reset".  (I have not made it through the entire thread, but I note the concern of ignoring bad behavior from one sibling to another.)

 

No, it is not okay to ignore ugliness from one sibling to another as a long-term parenting strategy.  

 

During a "hard reset", you essentially do a fruit basket turnover and change as many interactions and patterns as possible.  

 

I would never advise ignoring physical violence.  My understanding is that the 12 yo ds is verbally rude to the 9 yo ds.  This has been ongoing and is a behavioral pattern and habit.  

 

What has been tried:  Punishments, restrictions from seeing friends, verbal correction.  All of this has been ineffective in changing the interactions.

 

OP is at a place at which most (?) of her interactions with her 12 yo are negative.  None of her attempts to change his behavior have worked.

 

A "hard reset" involves a complete change of as many dynamics, actions, interactions and patterns as possible over a short time in an attempt to change the negative patterns.  Because we are dealing with a child, these are patterns which are more amenable to change than an adult with many years into the patterns.

 

Yes to upping the supervision between the 9 yo and 12 yo.  In particular, keeping the 9 yo in eyesight of mom would be advisable.

 

I would speak to the 9 yo and tell him that you recognize his brother is ugly to him and you are trying to do some things to change this.

 

If no change or improvement is noted in two weeks, seek outside help.

 

I speak from a perspective of having personal (family of origin) experience with negative sibling interactions which were grossly mishandled by my parents and as a mom with years into working with negative sibling interactions.

 

Changing the parent-child relationship is the approach I would take initially.  No one parents well from a position of feeling negatively about a kid.  Punishments (and increasing punishments) will just go further down a path which has proven ineffective.  This problem did not begin overnight, and taking two weeks to attempt to change it by radically changing the approach is a reasonable thing to do prior to seeking outside help.  Seeking outside help is never a bad thing to do when a parent has reached the end of what she/he knows to do or any member of the family is being negatively impacted to the point of risking permanent damage.  Only the OP can really evaluate that.

 

I am not invested in everyone agreeing with my approach.  It is not a typical approach.  But I did want to respond and clarify.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.  What you describe sounds much like a Charlotte Mason habit change.  You pull the child completely out of the rut that runs the rails of the bad behavior.  Give the child tools to deal with the circumstance positively.  Then slowly wean them into the normal life situation, being careful that the new, good habit takes and keeps hold.

 

 

These behaviors always have a pattern.  If you can disrupt the pattern, even if that is for ice cream (before bad behavior happens) at the onset of a tense situation over and over, each and every time.  You can then implant a new habit.  (I notice that you seem to be angry when your brother is ______.  It's pretty normal to feel angry when _______, but let's brainstorm some ways to handle anger without causing hurt.)

 

I started the "You have to leave the room when your brother enters it." rule.  That stopped things immediately, though not from the heart.  This is a tool they both use to cool things off now.  Just.leave.the.room.  

 

Meanwhile, we play games with mom.  I go back to the role-play-practice.  Instead of "Gimme it!" say, "Pass the dice, please." or I'll even take a silly "Dice-Pass."  It feels like I should be done with this sort of sandbox socialization...but here we are...and, evidently, my boys are well-behaved at other people's houses so that is something.

[fairfarmhand]

One thing I thought I would throw out there....

 

You sound like a very sweet family. However, I have one of these kids. I tried very hard in correcting her to be gentle, sweet and kind. The problem though is that she values outward displays of emotion. When she is angry, happy, or opinionated, she is loud and forceful. When I tried to correct her gently, she couldn't "hear" it. She didn't value my input. ("Mom, told me not to do this, but she really didn't sound like it was that important.") I had to be a little louder (not yelling) firm and stern for my correction to truly communicate my displeasure about her infraction.

 

So the whole "Michelle Duggar" whisper technique was sort of a failure with her. She needs a much stronger personality to stand up to her and say, "No. That is NOT OKAY!"

 

It is NOT your fault. Some kids are just really hard.

[rose]

I have 2 12yos. While they're not horrid to each other most of the time they definitely compete regularly and try to be at the top of the pecking order. They're both trying to become adults and the easiest way to do that (in their minds) is to peck their way to the top.

 

I wonder if a good part of your problem is that your 12yo needs to be helped into a more mature stage of life. I can see my boy going through this. My boy has needed new freedoms and responsibilities. Does your dh do a job that he can enlist in you ds's help? If not maybe they could do some make work projects together, like building a fence or fixing up a car. My boy thrives on this sort of stuff. He loves knowing more than me about certain things. It makes him feel like a man in the right sort of way. Maybe he could busy himself doing some sort of 12yo job like lawn care or paper delivery. Or maybe if you've got a little extra cash he could do a short course on something boyish, like electronics tinkering or basic carpentry. You said that he's anti-sports but does he like swimming? Could he do some swimming lessons? My boy is just a ridiculous handful if he's not adequately stimulated. My 4yo is the same too. They just need mental and physical outlets besides just reading and washing dishes. Just think about what the average man would become if he had to live in your role without masculinizing it.

 

That's probably not all there is to the problem but it might be one avenue you could take to relieve yourself a little.

[bettyandbob]

My attention needing child is my oldest. He is also 2E, so some of our issues are similar to what you describe, but they may not apply.

 

In our situation oldest was incredibly mean to his next younger sibling. Things escalated around 12 and continued to escalate through high school (it was incredibly painful for me to get through this time). I think one of the factors was his own jealousy. Life is easier for her because she is not 2E. (Life is not easy for dd at all, but it is definitely easier)

 

I agree giving the attention seeking child separate time alone with parents is good. My oldest was a fantastic, interesting guy to do things with alone. It could be anything he likes: we went to brick fair, visited caves, did natural history stuff, etc.

 

If the child is not getting exercise (you said he wasn't into sports), I'd institute an exercise program. I noticed that when ds exercised it took a significant edge off his behavior. He would be calmer and easier to get a long with. I required sport involvement year round to make sure oldest was moving from the time he was 6 (he had some physical issues, so this started as a way to help with that). Try for two or three days a week of something that is "heavy exercise". After my ds quit TKD, I found a program at the Y geared to preteen/young teen boys. It had a couple 20 something male instructors who really knew how to play with the boys. We also did personal training (there were discounts on personal training for kids and teens when we did it). Another thing that provided a workout was drum lessons.

 

Give attention to the other kids. Make sure they get one on one dates with mom or dad too. It gives them a good break from the tension right inside their home (if you are having trouble with the situation and you are supposedly in charge imagine how powerless your other dc feel). Seek out opportunities for younger sibling to shine (sports, dance, music academics, scouts). All that belittling hits a developing ego hard. You need to counter.

 

I gave them breaks from me and each other with overnight camp. I sent them to scout camps, church camps, other camps that fit their personalities and that I could afford (major limiting factor here). I sent them on different weeks, so they'd be apart longer.

 

Do you take family trips? Do you end up planning the whole trip around trying to predict how this child will react to this or that. We stopped taking trips together. It was expensive for our budget and they'd be stressful and unpleasant. I started taking my younger 2 on two or three camping trips a few years ago. Mostly to the beach. I decided I wanted the younger two to have fun family memories even if it wasn't the whole family. Oldest hates the beach anyway. My being away meant he got more unregulated computer time when I was gone so he was fine with the trade. He was in high school by the time we started this. Honestly, I wish I had not waited so long. It took a long time for me to accept that my family would never look like other families.

 

Does it get better? Things started to improve a year or so ago. Oldest is 20 and like I said 2E so maturity and adult milestones are coming slower (thankfully starting to come). With a typically developing child I'd expect a drop off in behaviors before the end of high school.