Should young men be permitted to duke it out?

[rowan-tree]

I grew up in small town Mississippi. I was amazed at the courage of some of the boys I knew. I remember one boy, who in ninth grade, got his teeth pressed through his bottom lip when a nasty opponent stepped on his face while he was face up on the bottom of a pile up. Everyone was aghast at the blood. The coach wanted to sit him out. The boy wanted to keep playing. The coach asked the dad. The dad said, if he wants to play, let him. He played out the whole rest of the (long) game.

 

When I got to college, there was another boy I knew from McComb, MS who told a group of friends (you know how boys like to brag about their "battles") about how he and his brother grew up duking it out all the time. Really! They would spend whole days doing it. The girls were always appalled, of course, which egged the boys' stories on. But those boys I knew who grew up standing up for themselves turned out to be some brave men, although I can't say much for their other traits.

 

But our schools always had a zero-tolerance policy for fighting. This applied, of course, mostly to the boys (although I've seen some girls get into it, too, and I had my share of spats). Is this right?

 

One of my favorite bloggers (who I've referrenced here before) wrote a blog on this. It sort of seems counter-intuitive to a woman who wants her young men to be men of peace. On the other hand, I see the point and think it's a good one, and I've come over to this view after reading Doug Wilson's thoughts on the matter (which book the blogger references).

 

Thoughts???

[Kelli in TN]

No, fighting should not be allowed.

[PariSarah]

. . . want your children to get some practice in. If you value other kinds of courage, they will need to practice other things.

 

Peacemaking requires practice. Being forbidden to fight requires one to adopt strategies and techniques of peacemaking. So, yes, I forbid my children to fight precisely because I want them to be courageous peacemakers.

[newbie]

. . . want your children to get some practice in. If you value other kinds of courage, they will need to practice other things.

 

Peacemaking requires practice. Being forbidden to fight requires one to adopt strategies and techniques of peacemaking. So, yes, I forbid my children to fight precisely because I want them to be courageous peacemakers.

 

Nicely put.

[Kelli in TN]

. . . want your children to get some practice in. If you value other kinds of courage, they will need to practice other things.

 

Peacemaking requires practice. Being forbidden to fight requires one to adopt strategies and techniques of peacemaking. So, yes, I forbid my children to fight precisely because I want them to be courageous peacemakers.

 

Well, actually this was going to be my answer, but I didn't want to show off so I just waited for Sarah to say it for me!!!

 

:lol:

 

 

:iagree: with Sarah.

[wagnfun]

I grew up in small town Mississippi. I was amazed at the courage of some of the boys I knew. I remember one boy, who in ninth grade, got his teeth pressed through his bottom lip when a nasty opponent stepped on his face while he was face up on the bottom of a pile up. Everyone was aghast at the blood. The coach wanted to sit him out. The boy wanted to keep playing. The coach asked the dad. The dad said, if he wants to play, let him. He played out the whole rest of the (long) game.

 

When I got to college, there was another boy I knew from McComb, MS who told a group of friends (you know how boys like to brag about their "battles") about how he and his brother grew up duking it out all the time. Really! They would spend whole days doing it. The girls were always appalled, of course, which egged the boys' stories on. But those boys I knew who grew up standing up for themselves turned out to be some brave men, although I can't say much for their other traits.

 

But our schools always had a zero-tolerance policy for fighting. This applied, of course, mostly to the boys (although I've seen some girls get into it, too, and I had my share of spats). Is this right?

 

One of my favorite bloggers (who I've referrenced here before) wrote a blog on this. It sort of seems counter-intuitive to a woman who wants her young men to be men of peace. On the other hand, I see the point and think it's a good one.

 

Thoughts???

 

Well as a mom of two boys I can say I USE TO take the NO FIGHTING however.. then life happened.

 

I use to object when my boys and their friends wrestle & fake fight. It is agressive & harsh, they becomee bruised & sometimes bleed-- but they have fun. There are about 9 boys ranging in age 6-12 in this group. The olders are careful for the littles. I don't let their little sister watch b/c it freaks her out.

 

I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.

 

THEN.. my 8 yr old was semi jumped by a neighbor boy. Neighbor boy was showing off in front of his 11 yr old friends. He knocked my son down and kicked his head. My 12 yr old son drew on all experience he had fake fighting with his friends and set this neighbor boy straight. When he came home, he didn't want to talk about it but told me "I just had to mom", asked me to drop it, then retreated in his room for a while. He came out with no attitude and told me he had to fight.

 

Yes I think there is a time and place where MEN have to know how to fight. Remember the Kenny Rogers song "gambler"? My husband has only been in 2 fights in his life but I have NO doubt in my mind that man can protect me & our kids if it is needed. Keep in mind, he had to learn this somewhere. I want my boys/men to kill big bugs & protect me-- not cry in a corner with me.

 

Do I encourage fighting? no. Do I like it? no. Do I think it is necessary now & then? yes.

 

On the flip side in schools.. I think it is discouraged b/c of knives/guns, gangs & such- that is an entire different monster than sticking up for ones brother or another kid.

[Jill- OK]

Well, actually this was going to be my answer, but I didn't want to show off so I just waited for Sarah to say it for me!!!

 

:lol:

 

 

:iagree: with Sarah.

 

I find myself reading a lot of Sarah's answers and saying, "Dang...*I* would have written that...if only I'd thought of it, first!"

 

:D

[Mom to Aly]

No, young men should not be allowed to "duke it out"! Allowing violence is condoning it! There is no reason to condone violence, under any circumstance. My fave quote on this is from Thomas Edison, "Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."

 

What does being bigger than someone else, or able to beat someone else, physically, prove? How would it help the boys? By letting them fight it out, the one who won could then go on to beat another boy, then another, until the strongest boy had the others of his acquaintance afraid of him--is that what you are aiming for in this scenario? To what end? To create an old fashioned bully who terrorizes the school yard?

 

One of the things I truly adored about my high school was how competitive it was academically. We were one of the best in NY, and people who were good students were more respected than jocks or cheerleaders. I wish every school was like that! I got a perfect math SAT, and almost perfect English, and I knew, not because I checked (that was just after my brother fell ill, and I wasn't in school the day they posted the scores, before students received them), I knew because practically the whole school showed up at my house to congratulate me!

 

There was a "gang" of jocks at our school, but none of them would have dared bully a "nerd", because those nerds were respected, too! The only people that didn't get any real respect were the few that did drugs; not the occasional party night, but all the time--not cool at my school.

 

I'm not saying it was the perfect school; actually I hated it, because I was bored from day one, but I didn't hate the kids. It was a better environment than I had been in up until then.

[rowan-tree]

 

I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.

 

That's funny. 'Cause, although, my dad and mom always discouraged fighting, my dad told my brother that, if someone wants to fight to remember two things: 1) Hit him in the nose first, and 2) always get in the first punch (especially when my brother got older and the first punch often determined the outcome).

[Laura in VA]

Well as a mom of two boys I can say I USE TO take the NO FIGHTING however.. then life happened.

 

I use to object when my boys and their friends wrestle & fake fight. It is agressive & harsh, they becomee bruised & sometimes bleed-- but they have fun. There are about 9 boys ranging in age 6-12 in this group. The olders are careful for the littles. I don't let their little sister watch b/c it freaks her out.

 

I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.

 

THEN.. my 8 yr old was semi jumped by a neighbor boy. Neighbor boy was showing off in front of his 11 yr old friends. He knocked my son down and kicked his head. My 12 yr old son drew on all experience he had fake fighting with his friends and set this neighbor boy straight. When he came home, he didn't want to talk about it but told me "I just had to mom", asked me to drop it, then retreated in his room for a while. He came out with no attitude and told me he had to fight.

 

Yes I think there is a time and place where MEN have to know how to fight. Remember the Kenny Rogers song "gambler"? My husband has only been in 2 fights in his life but I have NO doubt in my mind that man can protect me & our kids if it is needed. Keep in mind, he had to learn this somewhere. I want my boys/men to kill big bugs & protect me-- not cry in a corner with me.

 

Do I encourage fighting? no. Do I like it? no. Do I think it is necessary now & then? yes.

 

On the flip side in schools.. I think it is discouraged b/c of knives/guns, gangs & such- that is an entire different monster than sticking up for ones brother or another kid.

 

:iagree:

[wagnfun]

. . . want your children to get some practice in. If you value other kinds of courage, they will need to practice other things.

 

Peacemaking requires practice. Being forbidden to fight requires one to adopt strategies and techniques of peacemaking. So, yes, I forbid my children to fight precisely because I want them to be courageous peacemakers.

 

I'm sry but I think being completely forbidden to fight and not taught any kind of self protection physically can set them up for a bad situation in their older future. I fully believe in working on a patient character, as well as strategies for

peacemaking but I'd hate for them to be caught off gard and not know how to protect themselves if/when they are in a situation where they are forced to fight. Just because I want my boys who will become men to know how to protect themselves, doesn't mean I don't value courage of the non physical sense.

[wagnfun]

That's funny. 'Cause, although, my dad and mom always discouraged fighting, my dad told my brother that, if someone wants to fight to remember two things: 1) Hit him in the nose first, and 2) always get in the first punch (especially when my brother got older and the first punch often determined the outcome).

 

 

Yep, I can see this.. but today? First punch is a lawsuit and not a good case for self defense! :001_huh:

Hubby tells boys, let him take the first swing while you make the first MOVE

[Parrothead]

I'm of the "don't start anything, but make sure you darn well finish it" school. By that I'm not condoning fighting. 9 times out of 10 there is a better way to handle the situation.

 

For that 1 remaining time being a victim is not a good option. Victims often end up maimed or dead. Self-defense and knowing how to quickly put an aggressor on the ground (if he can't stand, he can't fight) are good skills to have.

 

Until we live in a perfect society there are going to be bullies and punks. Knowing all the ways to handle them is a positive thing. Walking away is a great strategy until the bully pops you one in the nose, and draws back for the next swing.

[Jugglin'5]

:iagree: My dh had same experience. And he says if your going to fight, plan on winning. When you grow up in the oilfield, sometimes nothing else answers.

 

Well as a mom of two boys I can say I USE TO take the NO FIGHTING however.. then life happened.

 

I use to object when my boys and their friends wrestle & fake fight. It is agressive & harsh, they becomee bruised & sometimes bleed-- but they have fun. There are about 9 boys ranging in age 6-12 in this group. The olders are careful for the littles. I don't let their little sister watch b/c it freaks her out.

 

I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.

 

THEN.. my 8 yr old was semi jumped by a neighbor boy. Neighbor boy was showing off in front of his 11 yr old friends. He knocked my son down and kicked his head. My 12 yr old son drew on all experience he had fake fighting with his friends and set this neighbor boy straight. When he came home, he didn't want to talk about it but told me "I just had to mom", asked me to drop it, then retreated in his room for a while. He came out with no attitude and told me he had to fight.

 

Yes I think there is a time and place where MEN have to know how to fight. Remember the Kenny Rogers song "gambler"? My husband has only been in 2 fights in his life but I have NO doubt in my mind that man can protect me & our kids if it is needed. Keep in mind, he had to learn this somewhere. I want my boys/men to kill big bugs & protect me-- not cry in a corner with me.

 

Do I encourage fighting? no. Do I like it? no. Do I think it is necessary now & then? yes.

 

On the flip side in schools.. I think it is discouraged b/c of knives/guns, gangs & such- that is an entire different monster than sticking up for ones brother or another kid.

[keptwoman]

I let my two duke it out. I step in sometimes if someone is getting injured but usually they sort it out for themselves. Then when they are calm we talk about how they could have dealt with it differently.

I don't believe it's going to make them inherently violent.

[GSMP]

Well as a mom of two boys I can say I USE TO take the NO FIGHTING however.. then life happened.

 

I use to object when my boys and their friends wrestle & fake fight. It is agressive & harsh, they becomee bruised & sometimes bleed-- but they have fun. There are about 9 boys ranging in age 6-12 in this group. The olders are careful for the littles. I don't let their little sister watch b/c it freaks her out.

 

I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.

 

THEN.. my 8 yr old was semi jumped by a neighbor boy. Neighbor boy was showing off in front of his 11 yr old friends. He knocked my son down and kicked his head. My 12 yr old son drew on all experience he had fake fighting with his friends and set this neighbor boy straight. When he came home, he didn't want to talk about it but told me "I just had to mom", asked me to drop it, then retreated in his room for a while. He came out with no attitude and told me he had to fight.

 

Yes I think there is a time and place where MEN have to know how to fight. Remember the Kenny Rogers song "gambler"? My husband has only been in 2 fights in his life but I have NO doubt in my mind that man can protect me & our kids if it is needed. Keep in mind, he had to learn this somewhere. I want my boys/men to kill big bugs & protect me-- not cry in a corner with me.

 

Do I encourage fighting? no. Do I like it? no. Do I think it is necessary now & then? yes.

 

On the flip side in schools.. I think it is discouraged b/c of knives/guns, gangs & such- that is an entire different monster than sticking up for ones brother or another kid.

 

:iagree:

 

We do not allow fighting but the kids have all been taught how to protect themselves. It was on our terms. They will walk away before they raise a fist.

[wagnfun]

I'm of the "don't start anything, but make sure you darn well finish it" school. By that I'm not condoning fighting. 9 times out of 10 there is a better way to handle the situation.

 

. Walking away is a great strategy until the bully pops you one in the nose, and draws back for the next swing.

 

 

E X A C T L Y >...

 

sidenote: maybe I should go back and recheck before I open my mouth but why start now... I wonder if the children from those against fighting in this thread are still young??!?!!??!! I'm thinking that may make a difference......

[GSMP]

E X A C T L Y >...

 

sidenote: maybe I should go back and recheck before I open my mouth but why start now... I wonder if the children from those against fighting in this thread are still young??!?!!??!! I'm thinking that may make a difference......

 

I don't know....my son got into his first fight in kindergarten. He didn't tell us this but for the first 6 months of K this one boy would punch him all the time. He hit all of the kids in the class. He wasn't nice about it.

 

Finally one day Charlie had had enough and the boy swung at him. Charlie pulled back and let him have it in the stomach. I got a call from the teacher and went in to talk to him. She did tell me this boy has been fighting all year. The parents were not doing anything at all to help the situation. The only thing that kept Charlie from getting in trouble at school was the principal being absent.

 

The teacher told me she never condones this type of behavior but that Charlie taught him a lesson no one had been able to teach this boy all year.

 

He never hit another child in the 5 years he was at the school.

 

My son did get in trouble. I felt bad about punishing him because he didn't tell us the whole story. That was when my husband had one of those man to boy talks. I don't know what he said....but Charlie will still walk away before resorting to hitting.

 

Are you talking about grown men or small boys. From what I have read boys need to wrestle and tussle around when they are young. But with understood boundaries.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I didn't read the piece, but I, for one, believe that fighting is almost never necessary, even in situations of self-defense. There is almost always a way out and it should be used.

[Joanne]

I do not let my boys (bio, daycare, students, neighbors) wrestle, or interact physically. They keep trying, though. ;) I do allow Father/Step father wrestling because I think it teaches and instructs.

 

I channel boy energy (organized sports, Tae Kwon Do, outside chores).

 

I want all my kids trained in self defense.

 

No, young men should not be allowed to "duke it out"! Allowing violence is condoning it! There is no reason to condone violence, under any circumstance.

 

No offense meant, but this reads like the mother of girls only. ;):001_huh: Please forgive me.

 

But I can tell you that if anyone, ever, were to physically or severely verbally assualt my dd (or someone else's), I'd expect the males in her life to come physically to her defense, period.

 

I'd support anyone in physically defending their person or property (to a lesser extent on the property).

[LG Gone Wild]

I honestly don't know. I don't think I would want my kid to be on the receiving end of the first punch. That is, I don't want him to wait until he is punched first and damaged before taking action. I think my plan is to teach my kids how to fight and fight to the finish. When they have that ability, I am not really worried about them duking it out or getting into fights.

 

You know what I've seen? boys love to throw down...love it, I'm telling you. They beat the snot out of each other and then go ride bikes together. I guess it is more sparring then duking it out. There is no ill will.

 

Fighting is ugly and unpleasant but it's necessary to know how to do it.

[SquirrellyMama]

I allow my son to play fight with his friends (when the other parents allow it too). Play fighting is gentle wrestling (no blood or actual hitting/punching the other boy) and cops and robbers sort of stuff. I have also told all of my children (2 girls and 1 boy) that if someone is beating on them they should protect themselves. We were dicussing the "turn the other cheek" verse one day. I told them if someone comes up to you and verbally assults you or hits you one time and walks away then you walk away too but if you are being beaten by someone then you protect yourself.

 

My fear is if I tell them "no fighting under any circumstance" they'll not fight back if someone is trying to abduct them. In that case I've told them to fight by any means necessary (hitting, biting, kicking) whatever it takes.

 

Kelly

[Laura Corin]

I'm of the "don't start anything, but make sure you darn well finish it" school. By that I'm not condoning fighting. 9 times out of 10 there is a better way to handle the situation.

 

For that 1 remaining time being a victim is not a good option. Victims often end up maimed or dead. Self-defense and knowing how to quickly put an aggressor on the ground (if he can't stand, he can't fight) are good skills to have.

 

Until we live in a perfect society there are going to be bullies and punks. Knowing all the ways to handle them is a positive thing. Walking away is a great strategy until the bully pops you one in the nose, and draws back for the next swing.

 

I used to teach my boys not to fight ever. Now, I give them permission to fight back if attacked.

 

Laura

[PariSarah]

I'm sry but I think being completely forbidden to fight and not taught any kind of self protection physically can set them up for a bad situation in their older future. I fully believe in working on a patient character, as well as strategies for peacemaking but I'd hate for them to be caught off gard and not know how to protect themselves if/when they are in a situation where they are forced to fight..

 

My son runs with a pretty rough crowd (as rough as 10yos can get ;)), and he's managed to . . . well, manage, actually, the crowd to avoid violence. Sometimes he just has to leave and play with them another day. Other times, he actually channels them into other activities.

 

Now, as someone pointed out, he's still too young, yet, to say how it's turning out. But I do see incipient leadership there. I see a kid who's learned how to "infect" others with his peacemaking because he is not permitted to respond violently. I don't see a kid who's a victim.

 

When my brother and I experienced bullying as a child, my parents stepped in and protected me. They didn't force me ("teach me") to defend myself. They confronted the parents of the bullies, and the bullying stopped.

 

They never actually forbade me to fight, so I don't know if I should claim my own childhood as an example of how being forbidden to fight works. But I didn't fight. I can remember the only time I tried to deal with a kid by hitting him. That turned out poorly enough that I didn't try it again. :D But I was not a victim of physical violence or bullying. If bullying came up, my parents dealt with it. No victimization involved. If there were kids that looked like they were itching for a victim, I learned how not to be one. And not in unhealthy ways, I don't think. And I grew up in a neighborhood that was very similar to the one I'm living in now, minus the drugs and gangs.

[PariSarah]

My fear is if I tell them "no fighting under any circumstance" they'll not fight back if someone is trying to abduct them. In that case I've told them to fight by any means necessary (hitting, biting, kicking) whatever it takes.

 

 

. . . in the "blatant hypocrisy" file. For me, that is. Like, I've said to ds, "Officially, this is wrong, and I'm opposed to violence, but if someone ever tries to kidnap you, scream your head off and go for blood."

 

:D

[JudoMom]

They never actually forbade me to fight, so I don't know if I should claim my own childhood as an example of how being forbidden to fight works. But I didn't fight. I can remember the only time I tried to deal with a kid by hitting him. That turned out poorly enough that I didn't try it again. :D But I was not a victim of physical violence or bullying. If bullying came up, my parents dealt with it. No victimization involved. If there were kids that looked like they were itching for a victim, I learned how not to be one. And not in unhealthy ways, I don't think. And I grew up in a neighborhood that was very similar to the one I'm living in now, minus the drugs and gangs.

 

But, Sarah, you are a girl. Boys and the way they work are different, so I don't think this is a good example for whether or not boys should be allowed to fight.

 

FWIW, I'm of the "don't throw the first punch, but defend yourself when necessary" camp.

 

Sure, there are plenty of ways and skills boys can learn to diffuse situations. However, they don't always work and I think a boy should be allowed to defend himself if necessary. Boys try to establish pecking order and ranks among themselves, and some boys don't always attempt to do this the fair and polite way.

 

What will you do/how will you feel if Isaac defends himself in a fight? What about Theo (from what I gather from the pics he'd be more likely to fight :D)?

[Kelli in TN]

I think there is a difference between allowing kids to "duke it out" and making certain that kids have good self-defense skills. Good self defense skills include knowing how to avoid a blow and sometimes return a blow or two allowing enough time to 'disarm' the aggressor. I don't see this as letting kids "duke it out" at all. I am for self defense skills and after I read Protecting the Gift we had many talks about self defense. But I stand by what I, er Sarah, said. My kids are encouraged to find a better way.

[Jennifer in MI]

I agree that there's a difference between allowing your children to "duke it out" and defend themselves. I do not allow hitting in my house. I do allow the boys to wrestle, however.

 

My boys all take karate as well.

 

My boys have been in a number of situations where they have realized that a fight was about to start and they've left.

 

My oldest was recently in a fight. I posted about it here actually and got a number of supportive responses. My son was defending a little girl and he got punched in the face and knocked down. Darn right he was allowed to get up and defend himself!!!

 

So, yes, I agree that the ideal thing is to get up and get away from the situation. But, if my kids are ever in a situation where they need to defend themselves or another, they have my permission and blessing to do so.

[woolybear]

Well, from my viewing experience (as a mom only) there is a world of difference between play wrestling and fighting. I do not allow my boys to fight. Older ds does not hold back any of his strength. So even in play wrestling younger ds would get hurt. ANd it makes me too nervous. However, I do let my older ds wrestle with his friends who are more evenly matched in size. But, I don't allow him to play fight. I do not see throwing punches or kicking as any kind of playing. My children,older ds in particular, are born scrappers. I have no doubt that he would defend himself quite well, without having practiced or learned how to do it. I'm pretty confident in younger ds in that regard as well.

 

My boys both need to learn more negotiating skills and patience, but that is a separate issue.

 

Older ds took karate for awhile. He got bored of it and I don't think he got the idea that it was for defense and not offense.

 

At one point I questioned whether letting them play wrestle/fight would help them get some of that energy and desire out of their systems.I tried it a little. They were happy with it, but as I said, it made me nervous and the possibility of hurt was too real.

 

So I think there are two separate issues here:1) learning to handle conflict and or defending oneself

and 2) play fighting

[PariSarah]

But, Sarah, you are a girl. Boys and the way they work are different, so I don't think this is a good example for whether or not boys should be allowed to fight.

 

<snip>

 

What will you do/how will you feel if Isaac defends himself in a fight? What about Theo (from what I gather from the pics he'd be more likely to fight :D)?

 

Take out my self-report of my own feelings, and leave only the information that my parents defended my brother from being bullied. He didn't need to stand up for himself physically. The people that should have--the grown-ups--did.

 

(ETA: Wait a minute. What am I saying?!?! If I don't think girls should defend themselves with violence, or practice violence by playing at it, why the hell should I think boys should?! Oh, girls are supposed to get beaten to a pulp on the playground, but boys can defend themselves? I take it back. If I, as a physically weak girl, didn't find the need to resort to violence to keep from being a victim, then neither should a boy, who has the added passive defense of inspiring caution in his aggressors.)

 

As to your questions . . . yeah, we're starting to call Theo Bamm-Bamm. :D This one's gonna be tougher. But I didn't form my beliefs on violence based on my older son's temperament, so the different temperament of my younger son is not really going to change them. Parenting him will definitely require different strategies, but allowing him to be physically violent will not be one of them.

 

What if one of them reacts to injustice with violence? As I said elsewhere, Christians are screw-ups. I'll tell him he screwed up, and we'll move on.If I think it was a particularly culpable screw-up, I'll try to point out the opportunities he had to do better. (ETA: restitution and/or punishment would probably be involved, as well.) If it were a particularly understandable screw-up, we'll move on really quickly.

 

As I also noted above, I just wouldn't put defending himself from an adult in the same category--not until he is an adult. Until he is capable of an adult choice to follow Christ, I'm not going to tell him to choose martyrdom. (And I should probably get around to telling him that if he hears God's voice calling him to something, he should listen to God and not Mommy.)

[Lizzie in Ma]

But I can tell you that if anyone, ever, were to physically or severely verbally assualt my dd (or someone else's), I'd expect the males in her life to come physically to her defense, period.

 

I'd support anyone in physically defending their person or property (to a lesser extent on the property).

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Lizzie in Ma]

I'm of the "don't start anything, but make sure you darn well finish it" school. By that I'm not condoning fighting. 9 times out of 10 there is a better way to handle the situation.

 

For that 1 remaining time being a victim is not a good option. Victims often end up maimed or dead. Self-defense and knowing how to quickly put an aggressor on the ground (if he can't stand, he can't fight) are good skills to have.

 

Until we live in a perfect society there are going to be bullies and punks. Knowing all the ways to handle them is a positive thing. Walking away is a great strategy until the bully pops you one in the nose, and draws back for the next swing.

 

I have to say, and I am not ashamed to do so, that this is the camp I grew up in and this is the camp I am staying in. The boys in our neighborhood always protected and defended the girls, sisters and friends and there were boys that made it needful. I always admired these young gentlemen for their reasonableness and manner. They never resorted to violence unless and until they were forced to and without anger they would put down the offender the way their father taught them. Then they would help the boy up and take him off to talk to him. It rarely happened twice. We always felt safe in our neighborhood. Not the case these days and I for one regret the zero tolerance for fighting cr*p that targets young men like these and lets the bullies get away with everything.

 

One caveat, I am not talking about little boys here, I am speaking of middle school and up. But the little ones learned from their example. And up grew another generation of good men.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

I was assaulted in college (attempted car-jacking by a mentally ill stranger). I will be eternally grateful for my two male friends who came to my rescue. I will *never* teach my sons that physical defense and/or rescue is wrong or that words and walking away is somehow more right or noble. There is a time and place for action.

[Parrothead]

(ETA: Wait a minute. What am I saying?!?! If I don't think girls should defend themselves with violence, or practice violence by playing at it, why the hell should I think boys should?! Oh, girls are supposed to get beaten to a pulp on the playground, but boys can defend themselves? )

 

Girls shouldn't get beaten to a pulp either.

 

What if there aren't any big strong men around?

 

I think girls should know the proper way to make a fist - just in case. I don't know what precipitated it, but one day when dd was about 6 she balled up a fist at me in a playful manner. Her thumb was inside the fist. I, again it was all playful, told her that when she got big enough and needed to use that fist the least she could do is do it correctly. Now, she knows if she ever needs to punch someone she won't break her thumb in the process.

 

When she gets a bit older I'm going to show her how to put a full grown man on the ground with a good kick at the thigh pressure point, the arms-length and a beet bottle principal and when/how to make a tactical retreat.

[Jill- OK]

. . . in the "blatant hypocrisy" file. For me, that is. Like, I've said to ds, "Officially, this is wrong, and I'm opposed to violence, but if someone ever tries to kidnap you, scream your head off and go for blood."

 

:D

 

...I don't know that Sarah and I are coming at this from exactly the same angle, but I don't put 'fighting' in the same category with 'never try to physically get away from someone'.

 

As far as those wondering if the folks against fighting only have little kids, or girls...nope. :-) My two oldest are teens and I have two boys. And most of my instruction about not physically whomping on siblings/others has been directed towards two little girls.

 

I also think it's a leap to believe that everyone who doesn't condone fighting between kids isn't allowing wrestling/play fighting, lol. I have five kids. There's wrestling/play fighting in abundance. I shrug it off and say the usual "That's what you get for HORSING AROUND LIKE THAT" when someone ends up hurt.

 

What I picture when someone talks about "allowing fighting" is approving violence as an answer to personal conflict. I don't believe in that.

 

I also don't believe (and it hasn't been my experience as a parent) that kids need to be taught to fight. My personal faith leanings include a belief that man has an inherent 'sin nature', and seeing the natural inclinations of kids as a mom of many confirms that, lol. Fighting generally comes naturally. (Not to all kids, but to many). It's turning the other cheek that doesn't. (I realize that some kids are more prone to letting themselves be abused, but I'll touch on that in a minute).

 

The reason I urge my kids away from fighting as an answer is mostly a religious one. "Turn the other cheek". That's balanced with a Biblical admonition about being careful about children, I believe. ("Whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble...")

 

So, I have a responsibility, personally, to follow Christ's example, I have a responsibility to teach my children that example...but I also need to look out for them. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

"I don't want you to answer violence with violence, if you can help it. I also have a responsibility to keep you safe, so I'm telling you that if someone attacks you, this is what you do..."

 

My kids know self-defense moves that will allow for getting away from attackers. It's not generally physically possible for a child to overpower an adult, anyway, and it's not preferable to me for them to overpower another child...but you can avoid and use other methods of self-defense.

 

Anyway, my attitudes about this for myself are similar. I wouldn't answer violence with violence if a neighbor or stranger slapped me in the grocery store, or at a gymnastics meet. I'd try my best to follow Christ's example...but I'd also resist if someone wanted to do more than humiliate me.

 

If an attacker was trying to carry me off, I'd resist, in the interest of keeping my children's mom alive. (Again...balancing the call to conform to Christ's image with the need to consider children. It may not be the best exegesis in the world, but like everything else...I'm doing the best I can, with what I can figure out, and trying not to let my own preferences trump what might be true, even if it's uncomfortable or odd).

[Murphy101]

Well as a mom of two boys I can say I USE TO take the NO FIGHTING however.. then life happened.

 

Yes I think there is a time and place where MEN have to know how to fight. Remember the Kenny Rogers song "gambler"? My husband has only been in 2 fights in his life but I have NO doubt in my mind that man can protect me & our kids if it is needed. Keep in mind, he had to learn this somewhere. I want my boys/men to kill big bugs & protect me-- not cry in a corner with me.

 

Do I encourage fighting? no. Do I like it? no. Do I think it is necessary now & then? yes.

 

 

As the mother of 6 boys - I completely and 100% agree.

 

My sister does not. When her oldest boy (of 2 kids) was in 8th grade his supposed bf (who happened to be colored) got the dickens beat out of him after the school bus dropped them off. (Years before every kid had a cell phone) My nephew (who was a BIG kid btw) stood by and did NOTHING because he knew he'd get in trouble for "fighting". Of course, the friend was no longer a friend and had a deep hatred for my nephew after that. I told my sister point blank I agreed with his friend - he'd been a no good coward and not a friend at all. She said, no he was being a "good boy" by not fighting - ever. I was so ashamed that she taught her son that a man could stand by and watch a friend be pulverized and do nothing when he had the ability to step in and defend.

 

I don't think anyone here is advocating teaching our boys to become men who go looking for a fight or who fight first without trying for peace. BUT we should be teaching them to not tolorate wrong when they see it being done. To not be cowards afraid to stand up for the underdog and what's right. To not be MEN when faced with evil.

 

Talking, walking away, reasoning - these are all great things that men should learn as well. But when push literally comes to shove, one has to deside whether they are going to be kicked to the ground or stand up. Not just for their own sake, but for others too. Sometimes, even more importantly for others.

 

It's not about who's bigger and tougher. My dh and sons aren't exactly gladiators, kiwm?

 

It's about sending a clear message that wrong will not be ignored and permitted and allowed to continue. That when something unjust or hatful is happening, someone will stand up and refuse to let it prevail. That someone doesn't just happen by. We have to raise our boys to be men who are willing to be that someone when placed in a situation that asks that of them.

 

And as the mother of 2 dd, I fully expect that any man who treats my girls like poo had best have a bigger self made army than her 6 brothers - there's something to be said for sheer numbers.;) Everyone says that having a dating daughter will be so nerve racking. LOL Not really worried about it here. We figure any boy that can brave the small brigade guarding the door MIGHT be worthy of letting in and he sure won't be quick to treat her less than very good.:D

 

so there's my soapbox and I'll step off it now.

[OnTheBrink]

I think boys should be taught self-control and not resort to fist fighting when in a disagreement with another person. I also think everyone should be taught ways to defend themselves if they're attacked.

[Jill- OK]

I was assaulted in college (attempted car-jacking by a mentally ill stranger). I will be eternally grateful for my two male friends who came to my rescue. I will *never* teach my sons that physical defense and/or rescue is wrong or that words and walking away is somehow more right or noble. There is a time and place for action.

 

I think this is addressing something WAY different than what the OP brought up.

 

I don't think that siblings 'duking it out' with each other (as she specifically mentioned in her post) necessarily teaches men to be protective.

 

I would never teach any of my kids, male or female, that physical defense or rescue is wrong. The concern for others that I do try and teach them would be the very thing that I would hope would foster that.

[Tracey in TX]

I don't think anyone desires their child/ren to experience violence, but it's out there in the big, bad world. Sadly, it's a reality. We need to teach our children kindness, compassion, and the skills to make it in our world. that includes arming them with the knowledge when it's okay to be physical. They need to defend themselves from others--bullies, predators,etc. They should also be encouraged to stand up for the underdog. That might be a younger child, a girl, or an elderly person.

I was bullied and beaten up often on the bus ride home from school. I was "fair game" because I was a little pip squeak with a big mouth. My parents stepped in and talked to the bullies' parents. That did nothing but egg them on. Finally I ripped one punch to a kid a head taller than me, broke her glasses. She cried. Her parents demanded payment and my parents reminded them I was defending myself. I NEVER had an issue from any on the bus again. Not my proudest moment, but intervention didn't work. High school boys hitting me, at 11 y/o. I punched the worst of the bullies, a girl. Would I do it again? In a New York Minute, if required.

I have taught my children to avoid physical confrontation, but if bullying becomes physical and adult intervention doesn't work make sure to make the first punch count. You'll inevitably be in trouble afterwards.

[Jami]

I think I'm in Jill's camp on this. :001_smile: And in general teaching children how to be peacemakers should be encouraged.

 

I do think young men should be given tools to feel confident in their strength and ability to protect the ones they love, not necessarily fighting "move", but physical confidence in how to use their bodies well. I mention this because of my dh's experience being underweight (not that he could help that) and lacking in this confidence. It affected his perception that he *could* defend his family if needed. Living in a rougher neighborhood a few years ago provided a motivation for him to start seriously lifting weights, running, and adding some bulk. He didn't learn specific self-defense moves, but because his frame was more powerful, he felt better able to defend and protect. And it's easier to restrain strength in meekness when one has the strength to start with. Does that make sense?

 

Jami

[Jill- OK]

...just to illustrate how much I believe that fighting, between siblings (which is what the original post was about), or between kids, in everyday situations, doesn't have much to do with protectiveness.

 

My husband is in the military. Some may think that's a contradiction to not condoning violence, but the truth is, it probably informs it.

 

We own a gun. On at least one occasion, my husband jumped out of bed, and thought he was going to have to shoot someone, to protect his family. Our city was experiencing a rash of home invasions, and in the middle of the night, our door glass smashed. It turned out that we'd left the screen door raised--this was an old-fashioned screen door, with glass--and it fell, breaking the glass and awakening us.

 

In the time it would have taken for intruders to reach our bedroom, dh had jumped up, and loaded his gun. And he would have shot anyone who came in. (I was still huddled on the bed with a sleeping newborn, scared to death; at least one of the home invasions had included a woman being r@ped, while her infant screamed nearby).

 

If I had been alone with my kids...I would have done the same thing. (Did you guys see the "Wow--What a Woman" thread? I don't second-guess that family's decision for a second.)

 

So, not only do I believe in military power as a defense mechanism, for a nation, I believe in the utmost personal defense, for individuals. Especially when children are involved. (See my other posts about balancing Biblical responsibility.)

 

It's because I take it so seriously that I encourage my kids not to physically fight with peers. There are simply too many ways to get out of trouble, lead by example, and avoid/flee.

 

As I said in other posts...I'm trying to reconcile several Biblical principles, and balance them in a way that makes sense. It may not make sense for others, but I do not feel that allowing kids to wrestle/play fight equals violence, I don't believe allowing siblings to truly, intentionally hurt each other teaches any sort of skill, and I believe that there's almost always another way when faced with physical confrontation.

 

But that doesn't preclude a belief that defense isn't ever okay.

 

Just wanted to explore that a little more, since the thread seems to be turning that way, and I wanted to get what might be perceived as MY 'hypocrisies' out of the way, lol.

[Mom to Aly]

Well, I don't put "duking it out" and self defense in the same category either! I am completely for non violence, but I have twice in my life had to fight for myself, once against someone who was mentally ill who attacked me while I was walking in NY, and once from someone who was trying to car jack me--I told him to take the car, but he wanted to take me with it, and there was no way I was going with him. Both times I fought back as hard as I could physically and got away (once with the help of a loaded book bag and carefully aimed kick, the other with a glass bottle of snapple hitting his nose, and me driving off--oh, how I LOVE snapple!).

 

My daughter and I are both going to take karate or something similar when I can afford it, but, in the meantime, we have both taken self defense classes, as I feel everyone should. But what you asked was not that question--what you asked was if young men should be allowed to duke it out, and I still feel that is totally wrong.

[Stacy in NJ]

While I never encourage violence or even allow it in my house, I do think at times we need to be prepared to respond in a violent way to situations. I think circumstances are really important when thinking about when fighting is okay and when it's not. I definately want my boys to be they type of individual that would never seek out a fight. I also want them to be capable of identifying when they're encountering an individuall that doesn't have the same attitude about violence, and then be able to physically defend themselves and/or others if need be.

 

Now, fighting as entertainment is just plain stupid in my opinion. Unless, of course, you're an Ultimate Fighter or a boxer, then it's a sport and a profession. :D

 

I also think personal courage is important. Being able to set aside some pain or discomfort to carry on in sports or other activity is, IMO, about character.

[LG Gone Wild]

And it's easier to restrain strength in meekness when one has the strength to start with. Does that make sense?

 

Jami

 

when I posted about my kids knowing how to fight and not worrying about them duking it out

 

Strange as it seems, it's easier to be calm and peaceful when you know you can turn it on if called upon.

[OceanBreeze]

As mothers, we should realize we're a little out of our element. This is a father's domain. We should allow the father's of our boys, whenever possible to handle this issue. However, the original post was regarding courage, not necessarily fighting.

 

Regarding courage, I believe we can and should set up opportunities for our children, boys and girls, to be couragous. How do they know they can be brave? Because they remember being brave in the past; they know what it is. I highly recommend The Lakota Way by Joseph Marshall III. There is a chapter on courage and how a young brave was taught courage by being given an oppurtunity to guard the fresh meat against a "bear". The trick is to come up with plausible ideas. Suggestions for the modern world?

 

Jenelle