No School in Two Years

[Guest]

I can't say if either of us have sample sizes large enough, or have controlled for enough variables, to make firm conclusions that only traditional learning works.

 

I agree, BUT by the same coin, evidently traditionally learning *does* work. It's kind of like medicine. If I have a headache, some people tell me Arnica will relieve it. They may even be able to point to times when it appeared to cure it. But I am more certain that an Advil will relieve it. The only real surprise will be if it Advil doesn't help at all. Not only is there extensive clinical evidence suggesting that it will work, and sound medical principles by which it works, but I also have extensive experience that verifies that it most often works. Might the Arnica work? It might. Do some people believe it works? Yes. The only question left is why would I take something that might work when I can take something that almost certainly does?

 

Obviously, learning is way more complex than Ibuprophen, but it also has far more important stakes. The great disadvantage in my eyes of the unschooling movement is that parents who are concerned are advised to wait it out, to give it more, indefinite amounts of time, to trust the child, to purge themselves of parental agenda. This is wrong. If Mom is concerned because her 10yo cannot read or do much math beyond "half a pizza," then perhaps she should be.

[Ausmumof3]

It seems like the older kid is more behind in Maths than the younger ones, which makes me think maybe there is some kind of undisguised learning difficulty making things hard that led her to give up on him.

 

I think the Maths is most critical right now and maybe math online or even a math tutor might be needed to catch the 10 year old up. I think she has been doing some work to know well where they are at, but not enough. I doubt with a new baby coming it is going to change, so I think some kind of online program with third party oversight is going to be needed.

 

I do think unschooling can work but if the Mum is concerned she obviously thinks it's not working right now.

 

I also have seen mums who say they aren't doing anything but when looked at in detail they are doing more than they think.

[Chelli]

Since you heard back from your friend, I'm curious what she had to say in regards to not doing any schoolwork.  Is she happy with that?  Does she want to change it?  Does she want your help?

 

 

She is not happy about it which is why she brought it up. She does want to change and she did ask for my help even to point of suggesting that I drive to her place to help her out. I am not willing to do that unless she pays mileage for my trip there and back, but I am going to attempt to help from here.

 

OP with your friends, I might also emphasize that there's a big component to school that is related to character training. Not just reading the Bible for character training, but gaining the skill and discipline to do a difficult task without complaining or quitting. Daily school lessons foster this. (

although I know there are other ways of implementing it, I do believe that school is a natural way to teach it.) Daily school teaches that we take huge tasks and conquer them by "taking a bite at a time." Daily school teaches prioritizing.

 

 

I'm sure there are other character lessons that daily school teaches, but those are just a starter. On days when I am not motivated, seeing daily school lessons as a lesson in character to my kids (since they are my responsibility to God) helps me knuckle under and do the hard thing.

 

So that might be one way to encourage her to see the importance of daily diligence.

 

This is such a great point and one that ultimately made me be more diligent with our school time. I will definitely share this with her.

 

I might have missed it, but did Chelli see anything more than "DH needing to wash dishes while we were there" and "they had the whole day to prepare as they knew we were coming?" Because this in itself doesn't sound like an emergency situation to me.

 

I didn't say more than that because honestly I didn't want to have to go into details, but during the course of our conversation about mold and maggots, they were also sharing their quick cleaning tips because someone is coming over. My friend said that she takes the really gross dishes and pots and has her husband put them in the garage so they don't smell in the house and no one sees them. There were some other "tips" but that was the one relevant to the dishes. Once she shared that and I remembered thinking how dirty her kitchen was, it all kind of made sense. At that point I had no reason to doubt the veracity of her story about mold (she did also have her own maggot stories to share). It was one of those things where you notice something a little off initially (the filthy kitchen) and when you get more information, a light bulb goes on and it all fits together. Honestly, if we'd been there longer than just stopping to eat dinner with them and hang out for a bit, I totally would have made her tackle that kitchen with me. It was a 10-15 minute conversation of the two of them sharing their horrible housekeeper stories over dinner. I felt like Martha Stewart by the time we got up from the table.

[Ausmumof3]

So true for me... Without systems nothing happens.

[texasmama]

I make detailed schedules which I stick to with great rigidity. This includes how many chapters of Tom Sawyer I will read aloud every day. This year I used the 36 week file folder system with little dd. I am a master at writing a syllabus. If I do not, it does not get done. Ask me how I know.

That which I know will not get done without outside help gets outsourced.

I consider myself about average as a homeschooler, not rigorous and not below minimum standards. I also like outside validation (SAT10 testing and outside classes).

I know myself well, and I take stock of my strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly. What works for my family would not work for others and vice versa.

[texasmama]

P.S.  I put little check marks next to every day of every subject when we have finished that subject.  :D

 

<box checker>

 

#whateverworksforyou

[Guest]

Uninformed unschooling can be a problem.

 

Uninformed any schooling can be a problem.

 

I don't think the evidence is as clear cut for traditional schooling as you might thing. I know here, children in private schools - the more ' rigourous' schools - tend to have higher university first year drop out rates than children from less rigourous public schools.

 

I know so many people for who traditional schooling does not work. It did not work for me. Sure, I was bright and I got the 'success' academically, but it left me with emotional issues that took decades to work through. I know many people whose children have been terribly unhappy learning in this Advil way, and thrive on styles and experiences outside the schooled norms.

 

I find it odd that we are having this conversation as homeschoolers.

 

I find it odd that we are not taking it as a given that informed educators can do a good job using a variety of methods and approaches.

Eh, well, that will be one of those Agree to Disagree things. I think history is stuffed with evidence that when presented with methods and knowledge on any subject, especially if practiced consistently over time, people learn the material more often than not.

 

I remember once seeing a handwriting sample from Some Important Guy in history; it might have been George Washington. The sample was from age six. The handwriting was immaculate. Now - I can't say how this precision was achieved and for all I know, maybe he was flogged for misshapen "a" s. But it made a big impression on me because I'm betting money he was taught to write in a precise manner. Young gentlemen were instructed explicitly and the standards were very high. He didn't just pick up a piece of chalk one day and form perfect letters.

 

I'm not saying perfect letters are a crucial necessity, but I'm saying there is such abundant evidence that explicit instruction, consistently given, teaches.

[Tsuga]

Uninformed unschooling can be a problem.

 

Uninformed any schooling can be a problem.

 

I don't think the evidence is as clear cut for traditional schooling as you might thing. I know here, children in private schools - the more ' rigourous' schools - tend to have higher university first year drop out rates than children from less rigourous public schools.

 

I know so many people for who traditional schooling does not work. It did not work for me. Sure, I was bright and I got the 'success' academically, but it left me with emotional issues that took decades to work through. I know many people whose children have been terribly unhappy learning in this Advil way, and thrive on styles and experiences outside the schooled norms.

 

I find it odd that we are having this conversation as homeschoolers.

 

I find it odd that we are not taking it as a given that informed educators can do a good job using a variety of methods and approaches.

 

I think there is a massive difference between "you need to have standards for yourself and a plan to uphold those standards and activities planned to reach your goals" and "there is one right way to do it."

 

In fact those things to me are not even in the same class of pieces of advice.

 

One is almost a tautology. If you don't know where you're going, how will you even know when you get there? How can you expect a change in outcomes (result) if you don't change what you are doing (activity)?

 

The other is patently false. No one way works for everyone.

 

When I hear people saying that standards are needed, I'm thinking of this very basic, set goals, plan activities, have benchmarks.

 

When I think radical unschooling I think of parents with a very specific goal and a very specific ideology and a very specific idea about how that plays out. True, it looks nothing like school, but there's a goal, there are activities to achieve that goal, and there are benchmarks. The children are expected to learn to read by osmosis. The children are expected to develop a passion for something (this is the #1 reason I have seen, on the Internet, people moving away from unschooling--the kid could not develop an interest in anything other than video games). The children are expected to participate in family activities and help run the household and make and explain complex decisions. At least, in my idealized, "radical homeschooling exists and works" version of RU. I'm going to be honest and say I've never seen this happen.

 

This can be contrasted with children who receive no education. Maybe there's an idea that public school is bad, but no clear idea of what a good education is. Maybe there's an idea about perfection but no idea about a realistic goal for one's own real children in the short, middle, and long term. In this case it sounds like OP's friend has a vague idea of goals, but her planned activities did not match the expected outcomes set to meet the goals. She might have been thinking of reading aloud and them picking up reading, picking up math, them enjoying worksheets, no coaxing, no whining, etc. No discipline issues, in other words. So she didn't have that activity planned.

 

Now, some people might have added that in. Others might have moved to a different method entirely. OP's friend just decided to leave it and couldn't adjust, possibly due to perfectionism.

[elegantlion]

I wonder how her dh would view any possible learning delays. My ds was a delayed reader and we were very close to seeking evaluation. I really asked a lot of questions of people here and other friends and it all finally seemed to click. I'm not sure it would have as soon if we had tried to continue as normal. 

 

Exdh however (not ex at the time) had a huge issue with even the consideration of his son having learning delays. It created arguments. After he got over blaming me (a very short time), he moved into denial for a while. I had to be very proactive on my own and gloss over it in front of exdh a few times. 

 

Not saying that applies here, however I can how not wanting to deal with a possible learning delay could turn into doing less than expected. 

[SarahW]

I started reading this thread this morning, and it took me all day to finish it. It just kept getting longer and longer....

 

I started reading after bleaching my kitchen counters and scrubbing the floors. Why? Because a rat wormed it's way into our old crappy house and nibbled on a banana, and left feces everywhere.  :ack2:  :ack2:  :ack2:  :ack2:

 

While I was busy in the kitchen, I had my kid do his Duolingo on the computer and do a page of cursive and a page of MM. Because school. I don't think I need Homeschool Mom of the Year Award for that, either. It just is. It's just average.

 

I totally agree with those who say that the key to success is just daily consistency. I do a version of weekly filing this year, and it is striking how many more pages are covered with consistent daily attention, and how few get covered if you just let things "slide" for a bit.

 

I feel personally icky about the situation of the OP's friend. It was how I was homeschooled for a few years. I was that kid in Sunday School feeling humiliated when all the "don't you know public school kids are stupid?" kids were doing a puzzle sheet with division questions, and I didn't have a clue what the symbol meant. My mom started off gung-ho, but then babies. Then she became one of the 10% doing the 90% of volunteer work at church. Then there were more mid-week Bible studies that happened in the morning. I didn't "unschool," I was left in the little kids nursery with no direction, suggestions, or support ( I should add that I was by myself there the whole time, there were no other kids or a sitter). I didn't think to think that there was anything wrong happening there. But now when I look back on it, I am hurt that despite the fact that my mother believed the line that parents have a biblical mandate to "train up a child" she put my education so low on her priority list. Ironically, if I had thought to say that to her then, she probably would have told me I was being "selfish."

 

Of course, from the outside it certainly looks like "everything worked out okay in the end." I got a BA, with honors. I went to grad school. Truth is, I spent quite a few years fudging over the massive gaps in my education. Fake it till you make it. Yep, I was good at that. Oh, I said something incredibly idiotic and naive? I misspoke, I forget the "not" in that sentence. Oops. Being deceitful was easier than being truthful and burning with shame. And my education? I figured that out entirely on my own, tyvm. I grabbed a copy of my parent's 1040 out of the filing cabinet and filled out my own FAFSA. Y'all here who do that for your kids amaze me. Truly.

 

Why did this happen? I'm still trying to figure it out. Being an adult now raising my own kids give me a good perspective. Depression was one thing. Guilt and fear some others. Deep seated psychological issues definitely played a role in my case (too complicated to get into here).

 

But at the end of the day, sometimes life gives you crap (literally  :ack2: ) and you need to decide where your priorities lie. Is it to become "more spiritual" or the "perfect Christian." Is it to make people on the internet you've never seen think you're amazing? Is it to get applause and kudos from people? Seriously, those things are so easy to value. Many thanks to the person who posted this: http://www.incommunion.org/2006/02/19/mrs-jellyby-and-the-domination-of-causes/. I sometimes struggle with this myself, and need to be brought back to my senses.

 

I still struggle myself with doing daily consistent work of the necessary mundane tasks. I am trying to teach my kid better habits, though. Over a year of nearly daily cursive practice - the end should be in sight soon, yes? Which reminds me, I have to go clear off my kitchen counters before bed. Because rats.  :ack2:

 

 

[Guest submarines]

Eh, well, that will be one of those Agree to Disagree things. I think history is stuffed with evidence that when presented with methods and knowledge on any subject, especially if practiced consistently over time, people learn the material more often than not.

 

I remember once seeing a handwriting sample from Some Important Guy in history; it might have been George Washington. The sample was from age six. The handwriting was immaculate. Now - I can't say how this precision was achieved and for all I know, maybe he was flogged for misshapen "a" s. But it made a big impression on me because I'm betting money he was taught to write in a precise manner. Young gentlemen were instructed explicitly and the standards were very high. He didn't just pick up a piece of chalk one day and form perfect letters.

 

I'm not saying perfect letters are a crucial necessity, but I'm saying there is such abundant evidence that explicit instruction, consistently given, teaches.

 

Most people can't pick up chalk and form perfect letters right away. However, one of my children decided he wanted to write in cursive, picked up his pencil, sat with it and a work book for the total of maybe 4 hours over the course of a week, and let me tell you, his cursive is lovely. He was 10. He was probably behind for all those years of not writing in cursive. :001_rolleyes:

 

So he did receive consistent instruction (tips from me, from the workbook, from youtube) when it was important to him, spent some concentrated time on the project, and achieved his goal. This kind of learning has its own values, and these values might be even more important to some people than being able to take explicit, consistent instruction.

 

But yeah, agree to disagree. :D

[IsabelC]

What I want to know is, why is it so much easier to see what others should do with their kids, than it is to see how best to proceed with one's own kids? I'm not asking this in a snarky or sarcastic way; I'm actually curious. I can literally spend weeks agonizing over things we do, it's taken me until my 6th year of homeschooling to have a reasonable amount of confidence about my choices, and yet I will often hear/read about somebody else's situation and think that the solution seems obvious!

[Guest]

What I want to know is, why is it so much easier to see what others should do with their kids, than it is to see how best to proceed with one's own kids? I'm not asking this in a snarky or sarcastic way; I'm actually curious. I can literally spend weeks agonizing over things we do, it's taken me until my 6th year of homeschooling to have a reasonable amount of confidence about my choices, and yet I will often hear/read about somebody else's situation and think that the solution seems obvious!

There is an actual term for this, but it escapes me at the moment. Earlier in the thread, 67-others mentioned Confirmation Bias. This one of those, too. Positive attribution Bias or something.

[Katy]

What I want to know is, why is it so much easier to see what others should do with their kids, than it is to see how best to proceed with one's own kids? I'm not asking this in a snarky or sarcastic way; I'm actually curious. I can literally spend weeks agonizing over things we do, it's taken me until my 6th year of homeschooling to have a reasonable amount of confidence about my choices, and yet I will often hear/read about somebody else's situation and think that the solution seems obvious!

 

Because you're too involved in the situation to be as dispassionately objective about your own kids as you are about anyone else's.  You hear a story about someone else and the answer is obvious.  You hear a story about your kids and you're defensive and hopeful and 'afraid to' and 'afraid not to' and you get so much mommy advice you hardly know which way is up, let alone the answer about what do do with the children you secretly expect to be an exception to your own rule because you see them as complex little people rather than as a problem to be solved.

[Jean in Newcastle]

When it is your own situation you know all the complex details that make it not quite so cut and dried.  That's why you get some controversy on these threads -  because some of us know there can be a whole lot of variables out there.   

[happypamama]

Because you are too close to the situation, but also because you know all the little obstacles that you face. "Get up earlier" is easy advice, but you also know that you have a baby who thinks 2 am is a great playtime. Or "send the kids outside while you clean" won't work because you know there's a feral dog next door. Or a thousand other things. Sometimes you just can't see a way around those obstacles.

[texasmama]

The forest and the trees.

 

Feeling and being responsible to a great degree for the outcome of your own kids.

 

Normalizing the familiar, be it good or bad.

 

Lack of objectivity.

 

It is the same reason I take my own kids to therapy sometimes.

[Stellalarella]

Elegantlion, thank you for "Gird Up My Yoga Pants."

 

Thank you.  

 

Thank you.

 

Thank you. 

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

What I want to know is, why is it so much easier to see what others should do with their kids, than it is to see how best to proceed with one's own kids? I'm not asking this in a snarky or sarcastic way; I'm actually curious. I can literally spend weeks agonizing over things we do, it's taken me until my 6th year of homeschooling to have a reasonable amount of confidence about my choices, and yet I will often hear/read about somebody else's situation and think that the solution seems obvious!

Also if you are reasonably smart it can be hard to accept that your kids need more help to learn stuff than you ever did. And because we underestimate how much work teachers in school actually do.

[Tsuga]

 

 

I feel personally icky about the situation of the OP's friend. It was how I was homeschooled for a few years. 

 

I appreciate your sharing your story. You are clearly an exceptional woman. What I am about to write is in no way meant to be a response to your story, but more a complement to it.

 

Some very poor people make it to the top 1%.

 

Some women make it in engineering without a mentor and never get sexually harassed.

 

Some black guys have never been bugged by the police.

 

It happens. There are exceptional individuals out there and when those individuals meet exceptional luck, life is happy.

 

The thing is, we can't assume our own children are exceptional. I have one child who has amazing handwriting in Mandarin. Like, random adults comment. She just has the motor skills of a... I don't know. It's amazing. People ask me what I did. I did nothing.

 

The other child has great handwriting and though they no longer teach it here, is learning cursive and is great at it.

 

Okay, so does that mean handwriting does not need to be taught? No. It just means that some exceptional individuals don't need much instruction. It doesn't mean that if you have some magical breastfeeding juju going on, your child will be an autodidact. Some people are amazing autodidacts. Most people are not. If they were, the world would be full of much smarter people!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM (the hornblower kind, the OMG make it stop variety...I keep forgetting that my real opinion is that this thread should be dying any minute now, as there's nothing left to do but either circle back and do it all again, or fall down the RU rabbit hole...)

Edited March 4, 2015 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Tsuga]

 

 

Idk. Charlotte said the atmosphere of learning matters - maybe it's more that - an atmosphere of learning in the house encourages kids to teach themselves...

 

Maybe it's just me, but it takes a hell of a lot of work to promote an autodidactic atmosphere in our household.

 

To me this is the unschooling that I'm talking about--it is hard. You really need to control the environment a lot to make it work because of the corporate effort to make the children into mindless consumer zombies, you know?

 

Also, I didn't mention genius. Not at all, and I don't believe that. Exceptional to me means just that. Many people are just exceptionally willing, or hard working, or curious!

 

 

 

All four of us have strong autodidactic tendencies

 

The "strong" part--that's the exceptional part. Maybe. Maybe it's your household. But I doubt it would come naturally to everyone. Because again, if it did, wouldn't everyone be much more educated? Why are there so many stupid people if this is so natural?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't unschool but I don't do a super structured school either - esp. in  the younger grades.  I guess I didn't find it that hard to have a rich learning environment.  A lot of it is messy exploration and play.  Which might explain my messy house even now because my teens still like messy exploration and play.  

[Ausmumof3]

I think there's kind of two truths here. Most kids do actually learn a lot of stuff from the world around them. I mostly unschooled the first year and my kid learned a ton. But it was so much work and so little routine it was non functional with extra kids.

 

Kids definitely learn in a nonabusive unschooling environment but they might not learn the exact set of information we want them to.

 

The set of information they learn will be a mix of the environment and what's inside themselves. So in an academic household which I get the feeling Sadie's is there's going to be academic achievement. In a house of crafty, amazing hands on people they will probably become amazing at making stuff.

 

It's just a problem that colleges etc or uni are looking at grades and numbers not the whole person and a certain kind of education has to happen to get those grades and numbers.

 

When we start providing the facts to kids the teaching themselves seems to slow down. It's like their information store is already full so they use spare time to run off energy and develop muscle etc. if we aren't filling their brains they do tend to start looking for something.

[Jean in Newcastle]

When kids are in the younger grades the set of information that they need to learn just isn't all that esoteric.  You can learn how to add, subtract, multiply and divide just as well with a play store as you can sitting down with a workbook.  Once they get to be about 5th grade, yes, it gets harder to learn that way.  You would need to be a lot more creative and knowledgeable to guide your child in a rounded education at that point.  That's why we moved to a more textbook based instruction at that point.  I actually wish I had had the time and energy to not have moved to textbooks though.  I think my children's' education would  have been a lot better if we had kept it more organic.  But we've come full circle and are doing more and more work that doesn't involve the old textbooks.  And my kids are happier for it.  My high school senior will take a gap year and is looking at more outside-the-box ways to get a higher education because he's realizing that his learning style (visual spatial) does better that way.  I'm not an unschooler though and never have been.  We've never been child led.  I've always taught the kids specifically what I've wanted them to know.

[Ausmumof3]

The hands on guided approach? We do mix it up with that but I feel that more is expected in primary now. For example it's not just multiply, divide add and subtract but how to manipulate numbers for specific results. Certain concepts seem to be introduced earlier. I'm not sure whether that's actually necessary but it's what I'm seeing in a lot of curriculum. And I'm too scared that if we don't keep up they won't be able to catch up later.

[albeto.]

When kids are in the younger grades the set of information that they need to learn just isn't all that esoteric.  You can learn how to add, subtract, multiply and divide just as well with a play store as you can sitting down with a workbook.  Once they get to be about 5th grade, yes, it gets harder to learn that way.  You would need to be a lot more creative and knowledgeable to guide your child in a rounded education at that point.

 

 In my experience, kids still learn through play, but their play just looks different. It matures with the child, and the skills that support this play increase. Knowledge increases in measure. Just to say, we don't do workbooks or seat work, and I don't find it harder or require more creativity or guidance on my part. Fwiw. :)

[Tsuga]

 

 

I think if fewer people had to sit in boring school for 12 years, having their intrinsic passions strangled, more people would access their autodidact tendencies  :)

 

Like in the middle ages or something?

 

I just don't see it. I see people who spend all day trying to find the path of least resistance. Not everyone. But many.

[IsabelC]

I think that the great difficulty with forming an objective judgment about the efficacy of student directed learning lies in the fact that firstly, there are so very few children who are given substantial freedom for autodidacticism, and secondly, those who are permitted that freedom would tend to be outliers in the first place.

[Pegs]

We took the day off school today, but it wasn't in honour of this thread! I had my re-registration visit today, and because the assessor was training a new employee, he used us as a demonstration family. 90 min of being 'on', with a head cold, wiped me out. Ds did do reading, and we watched a bit of a Richard Hammond doco, but that's it, and I feel totally 100% OK about it :) Thank God we don't have to do reregistration for another two years!

Congrats! I'm in the same state, and I know how arduous the rego process is here, so I have a fair idea of how much work you'd have put into it, and what a relief it must be to have been approved for the maximum period. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

The hands on guided approach? We do mix it up with that but I feel that more is expected in primary now. For example it's not just multiply, divide add and subtract but how to manipulate numbers for specific results. Certain concepts seem to be introduced earlier. I'm not sure whether that's actually necessary but it's what I'm seeing in a lot of curriculum. And I'm too scared that if we don't keep up they won't be able to catch up later.

Ds17.5 has somehow managed to get good PSAT and SAT scores despite never having had a formal writing curriculum and despite me not stressing about him keeping up with the academic Jones.  Do what you're comfortable with but I wish I had been more comfortable trusting my gut throughout his entire schooling instead of almost killing his love of learning when we first switched to a textbook approach before I pulled the plug when I realized what I was doing to my particular child.  Of course someone else will point out that their particular child absolutely loves and thrives with textbooks and they will be absolutely right to use them with that child.  All this is just to say that there really is no one right way but what is right is to teach the student(s) that you have in your homeschool.  Can kids learn without everything being tailor made?  Yes.  But some kids are less flexible than others and I think that one of homeschooling's greatest strengths and benefits is being able to teach to the student. 

[Pamela H in Texas]

I am not happy about the idea that there is ONE way to school at home - by schooling at home following a school model and timetable - and we are ONE community who should be policing this.

 

 

I don't think there is.  But I do think we need to follow our OWN convictions.  

 

I was talking to a friend yesterday (so glad to stop navel gazing about the other issue of life right now) and discussed my dismay about how our homeschooling is going though I truly feel there is not another viable option for us at this time (and I have taken an extremely detailed inventory of the situation, I promise, because honestly, I *would* choose something else, at least temporarily if I could).  It came down to that it isn't that my children are doing awfully as they simply aren't.  The only one of my children particularly behind is my 6yo who has special needs.  BUT, *we* aren't doing what *I* think we should be doing.  *I* chose a homeschooling philosophy (tweaked many many times through the years) and we aren't consistently doing it the way I want it done.  And if I complain about that, then I give you fodder for thinking about what YOU think about our situation if you care to (which obviously, based on the thread, some people are apt to do).  

 

Anyway, something else came from this conversation with my friend.  At one point, I got to discuss my journey to homeschooling (which started when *I* was a preschooler, took shape when I was in middle school, and got a name when I was in  high school, and started being worked out when my eldest daughter was a preschooler).  When I did so, I *felt* it again.  I could feel my passion, my belief, my hope, my JOY!  I need to find that again and KEEP it.  This is important.  My kids deserve the best I can give them.  And in my case, it is going to mean that I *have* to follow through on some changes I'm working on, not just in me, but our circumstances.  

 

Life can bury us sometimes.  Maybe the OP's friend is depressed.  Maybe she had too much on her plate.  Maybe her child has learning difficulties or some other issue.  I don't know.  But I would guess that whatever sparked her interest and motivated her working with her kids when they were littler has been buried under SOMETHING. 

 

There isn't a single way to homeschool, but do it your own way!  Homeschooling does need to be a priority.  We have to answer to these people one day!  They could have a complaint regardless, but make sure your answer can be, "I did what I thought was best."  If you're not doing what YOU think is best, I think there *is* a problem.

[unsinkable]

How are people with mental health, physical health, accident/injury physical health issues not special needs?

 

What is your definition of special needs?

 

There are those people who do require long-term accommodation and that's fine.

 

By definition, the majority of people do not. The vast majority. That's why special needs are special.

 

I think what people are saying is, if you do not expect your child to be in a job where these accommodations--three months off for the death of a relative--are going to be provided, probably don't put them in that school situation, either. Life does go on, as tough as it is. Of course you take a week off to go to the funeral. Then you go back. You only have what, four grandparents, right? It's not like this will come up forever.

 

And if you're talking about a child with MS or severe anxiety or who is literally in the hospital at this moment, come on, do you really think anyone's judging? I sure as heck am not.

 

But I do know kids who've had cancer and guess what...they went to school, with a mask, because, to quote one boy's dad, "It ain't over 'till it's over, and we're still planning on a long future for this little guy." They took it easy on him. They also kept living.

:confused:

 

You don't know any kids whose lives were turned upside down in high school?

 

The kid who develops diabetes?

 

The kid who loses a parent or family member?

 

The kid who becomes a parent?

 

Those meet my definition of being on one track but then circumstances derail them. They're not special needs.

[73349]

One one hand, parents know their children best; on the other, it's still a problem if they're breaking state law. We think of Texas as a place where homeschoolers are completely at liberty to do what they want. That's just not true: if the parent is not providing regular instruction in math (and reading, spelling,etc.)  from the age of six, "what mom/dad thinks is best" is not adequate. It's legal to skip science, or to do it in bits and pieces--not math. Owning the curriculum is not going to get it done. Expecting kids to have the interest or discipline to pick it up and do it on their own is not working for this family.

 

There are plenty of good reasons not to have school on any given day (such as having done a full school year already, or being too sick). There are also lame excuses, and they get lamer with frequency of use (can't do school in August: it's hot and we can't think; can't do school in September: toddler too demanding; can't do school in October: finally got nice weather and need to get outside; can't do school in November: travel opportunity; can't do school in December: getting ready for Christmas; etc.).

 

Chelli, maybe this mom needs a daily list that says Math, Reading, Spelling, Grammar, Citizenship. That's the legal minimum for her kids. If any week goes by and that list doesn't get done, she needs to ask herself why she's not going to give her kids what the law requires.

[TammyS]

She is not happy about it which is why she brought it up. She does want to change and she did ask for my help even to point of suggesting that I drive to her place to help her out. I am not willing to do that unless she pays mileage for my trip there and back, but I am going to attempt to help from here.

 

 

Yeah, I wouldn't be driving all that way, either.  Aside from the cost in gas and time, she's so far away that it's not like you could be of regular help to her that way.

 

Have you talked to her about why *she* thinks that things got to this point, and encouraged her to develop reality-based strategies for dealing with it (by reality-based, I mean things that are within both her ability and willingness to execute, not the "I wish I would be this way" strategies).  In the long run, that's probably what would be most helpful to her, I think.  The issue, IMO, isn't what kind of schooling she wants to do, but what are the roadblocks (even if they are only in her mind) that keep her from getting it done.

[Sahamamama]

Depending on the relationship, I would probably hear a plea for help in your friend's confession. I have had homeschooling friends and acquaintances mention that they don't teach and don't require their children to do anything, but they are self-confessed unschoolers or non-schoolers, so for them I don't think that saying their children haven't learned basic reading or math is a cry for help. At times, I have thought that they are simply chatting, or bragging, or (occasionally) testing the waters with me, to see what I think about their choices. I usually don't say much in these situations, especially if they already know where we stand. But I do try to accept the person, even when I disagree with how they parent or "school" (or not).

 

In your friend's case, I think it is a request for help, especially since she suggested that you could come over to her house. Without actually having been there to hear her, I see that as a way of seeking a more private, intimate setting, in which she could, if she felt safe enough, share with you her struggles. If she didn't think that you might be a safe place in which to expose her vulnerabilities and weaknesses, she would have probably just put on a happy face and said "all is well." But she didn't, so she's asking for help.

 

I think it's important to understand the impact of shame in this situation. Your friend is a minister's wife, a homeschooler, a mother. It's probably hard for her to admit to another person that she feels a sense of failure in something tied to those roles. If she's telling you these things, she has already struggled with those thoughts inside herself. She admits to facing criticism from her son's teacher at church. Who else has found her homeschool results to be sorely lacking? But at the same time, perhaps she faces pressure (from her husband? church culture? other homeschoolers?) to continue homeschooling, even though she feels ill-equipped to do it well. She might just not know what to do.

 

If you were to take her up on her "offer," and go over to her house at a time when you could both really talk, and not be continuously distracted by children, you might be able to help her to feel safe and loved within your friendship. That would have to come first -- the unconditional acceptance of her as a person, regardless of how different your personalities and choices might be. That is to say, do you love her? If you love your friend, you can truly be a friend. True friends are so rare these days, I think. We are all over each other, judging, judging, judging.

 

I don't know what I'd say to your friend, if I were in your shoes. But if she opens up to you, then just say what you feel is best. Speak the truth in love. I would take the risk, for her children's sake. I used to be much more of a MYOB mindset, but I've seen too many children being educationally neglected in my state to think that anymore.

 

And that's the other question: Do you love her children, enough to risk offending her? If you don't love them now, pray for them, and soon you will love them. HTH.

[Haiku]

A ten year old in MUS Alpha is way behind in math. Unless the child has a learning disability (which has not been mentioned and which, if present, needs serious attention), then the parent is simply not teaching her kid math for him to be that far behind. The fact that he is "currently working through" MUS Alpha does indeed indicate that no school (or very little) has been done for a long time.

 

As far as unschooling: I was recently explaining it to my kids because one of their friends said something derogatory to my son about having to do schoolwork because he (friend) unschools and doesn't do any schoolwork. I explained the philosophy of unschooling and did not mention anything value-laden. We know unschoolers whose kids are doing great things, so I don't have a negative opinion of it even if it's not what I choose for my kids. Anyway, my son, who is 12, said to me, "Unschooling would work great for [my sister] because she just likes to learn and find out about all kinds of things. It wouldn't work for me, though. I wouldn't really work if you didn't make me." Now, my son is a bright, curious kid who learns tons of things that interest him, and I think that's great. But he also has dyslexia and struggles greatly with math. He would not work on these things if I didn't make him. Who really wants to spend a lot of time slogging through stuff that is really tough for you but which you know comes pretty easily to a lot of other kids? I know I don't/wouldn't. My son knows that about himself. And I'm not about to set my son up to be so far behind that if/when he decided he needed to work on those things it would be a losing battle for him.

 

I have always found it curious that unschoolers, who by virtue of being unschoolers have rejected a one-size idea of education, seem to be some of the most strident one-size advocates when it comes to promoting unschooling.

[fairfarmhand]

 

 

As far as unschooling: I was recently explaining it to my kids because one of their friends said something derogatory to my son about having to do schoolwork because he (friend) unschools and doesn't do any schoolwork. I explained the philosophy of unschooling and did not mention anything value-laden. We know unschoolers whose kids are doing great things, so I don't have a negative opinion of it even if it's not what I choose for my kids. Anyway, my son, who is 12, said to me, "Unschooling would work great for [my sister] because she just likes to learn and find out about all kinds of things. It wouldn't work for me, though. I wouldn't really work if you didn't make me." Now, my son is a bright, curious kid who learns tons of things that interest him, and I think that's great. But he also has dyslexia and struggles greatly with math. He would not work on these things if I didn't make him. Who really wants to spend a lot of time slogging through stuff that is really tough for you but which you know comes pretty easily to a lot of other kids? I know I don't/wouldn't. My son knows that about himself. And I'm not about to set my son up to be so far behind that if/when he decided he needed to work on those things it would be a losing battle for him.

 

I have always found it curious that unschoolers, who by virtue of being unschoolers have rejected a one-size idea of education, seem to be some of the most strident one-size advocates when it comes to promoting unschooling.

 

My daughter has said as much. She wants to be a vet, but as a kid (who is quite immature when it comes to making herself do unpleasant tasks) she doesn't have it in her to learn all she needs to know on her own to make it to college and be ready for vet school.  She has friends whose families do an unschoolish model, and she is puzzled by it.

[LaMere Academy]

I haven't read all the responses, but am I the only one who doesn't think this is terrible?

Her children are young and I HIGHLY doubt they haven't cracked ANY kind of book.  Maybe they've been playing, watching educational TV, reading good books, playing games with siblings and friends.  There is still learning going on, a lot of it.  Maybe the mom is burned out right now, burn out can last years.  I went through it myself years ago.  I would support her and talk to her, I wouldn't be angry or want to report her.  I assume you've known her for a while and it hasn't always been this way and the mom won't continue on this way for the rest of their education?

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless she's locking them in a dark closet, they're learning.  Maybe not as much as they could be and hopefully the mom is able to do more soon, but if they're in a loving home full of games, books, if they play outside regularly, they'll be ok.

 

I'm thankful for my homeschool mom friends who never judged me and I'm glad I can offer support to my friends when they're overwhelmed, burned out or going through a hard time with life in general. 

 

 

[albeto.]

I have always found it curious that unschoolers, who by virtue of being unschoolers have rejected a one-size idea of education, seem to be some of the most strident one-size advocates when it comes to promoting unschooling.

 

I'd like to respond to this. At first I tried to do so through satire, but I'm afraid it would only be funny to unschoolers. Ultimately though, I want to interject only to say that this stereotype, while it may be common to your experience, isn't a universal portrayal of unschoolers. I would be considered by most to be a radical unschooler, and my local unschooling friends are similarly radical in their approach to education and life. Online or off, I find the community generally gracious, open minded, and flexible with regard to accepting various approaches to education. I'm not too familiar with the Sandra Dodd approach, although I have come to appreciate the insight I've come across. I only assume this is what you are referring to. It seems to be the standard example used by conventional home educators when referring to this idea, so I just assumed you've included it as well. My apologies if I am wrong, or if I misrepresent you.

 

Anyway, I think it's a problematic stereotype to contribute and propagate because it creates a sense of distrust and apprehension around the philosophy of unschooling, and I think that's a shame. While I know of no objective data to contribute to an unbiased analysis of the practical application of this philosophy, nevertheless it is respected and used by an increasing number of home educators, even some of us here. Not everyone can or desires to utilize conventional academic approach to education, and to continue to misrepresent it through unkind stereotypes is to miss the opportunity to try something that just may work. Really well, even. I understand this is only a tiny bunny trail and unrelated to the OP, but I think it's worth pointing out. The more you know, I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tsuga]

:confused:

 

You don't know any kids whose lives were turned upside down in high school?

 

The kid who develops diabetes?

 

The kid who loses a parent or family member?

 

The kid who becomes a parent?

 

Those meet my definition of being on one track but then circumstances derail them. They're not special needs.

 

I know lots of people who went through that.

 

They all stayed in school.

 

Becoming a parent, hell, I was a parent in grad school. People take the bar exam weeks after giving birth. People go through medical school pregnant, you can graduate high school. LOTS of girls in my high school got pregnant. State record. Some stayed in. Those girls are now teachers, nurses, professionals. Some dropped out because of special circumstances (baby). Those girls either went back, or in some cases, do not have an education.

 

I know it's hard, but seriously? I can't do X because I'm pregnant--in that case it is a special need so get yourself some help.

 

Almost every family in my high school faced something, from a child's death to a grandparent's death to a car accident.

 

Nobody thought to exempt them from school because the circumstances you are talking about are so incredibly common.

 

It doesn't get you several weeks off. You get a week to go to the funeral of a grandparent or parent, you get maternity leave off though they encourage you to make up the work and graduate on time. You get doctor's appointments off but you get make-up work to do after that.

 

I do know a boy who was so severely disabled he had to re-learn to talk. He took three months off, one in a coma, the next two due to inability to eat, but was back in school in special education and some key classes in three months, and had rehabilitated to such an extent that he was able to apply for college on time. This boy was my sister's friend and his accident happened their freshman year.

 

This was standard operating procedure. The docs said--get him active, get him with friends, don't let him sit around. He had issues but he recovered and lives a normal adult life.

 

So yeah, I know people like that. It's my life. We had a relative die when I was in school. They had the funeral on a weekend so nobody would miss work. I mean it was hard but they had a farm so there was no time off, you know? You just had to keep going, and everyone did.

[unsinkable]

I know lots of people who went through that.

 

They all stayed in school.

 

Becoming a parent, hell, I was a parent in grad school. People take the bar exam weeks after giving birth. People go through medical school pregnant, you can graduate high school. LOTS of girls in my high school got pregnant. State record. Some stayed in. Those girls are now teachers, nurses, professionals. Some dropped out because of special circumstances (baby). Those girls either went back, or in some cases, do not have an education.

 

Almost every family in my high school faced something, from a child's death to a grandparent's death to a car accident.

 

Nobody thought to exempt them from school because the circumstances you are talking about are so incredibly common.

 

It doesn't get you several weeks off. You get a week to go to the funeral of a grandparent or parent, you get maternity leave off though they encourage you to make up the work and graduate on time. You get doctor's appointments off but you get make-up work to do after that.

 

I do know a boy who was so severely disabled he had to re-learn to talk. He took three months off, one in a coma, the next two due to inability to eat, but was back in school in special education and some key classes in three months, and had rehabilitated to such an extent that he was able to apply for college on time. This boy was my sister's friend and his accident happened their freshman year.

 

This was standard operating procedure. The docs said--get him active, get him with friends, don't let him sit around. He had issues but he recovered and lives a normal adult life.

 

So yeah, I know people like that. It's my life. We had a relative die when I was in school. They had the funeral on a weekend so nobody would miss work. I mean it was hard but they had a farm so there was no time off, you know? You just had to keep going, and everyone did.

I'm not going to replay the thread but my response was to Faith and telling her that not every student is on the multiple AP classes, super high pressure competitive high school track.

 

I wasn't talking about dropping out of school or stopping homeschooling for years at a time. I NEVER advocated that.

 

I was talking about changing tracks for valid reasons. Life isn't over if your high school student doesn't have a foreign language or 4 years of math and science, culminating in AP exams.

[Tsuga]

I'm not going to replay the thread but my response was to Faith and telling her that not every student is on the multiple AP classes, super high pressure competitive high school track.

 

I wasn't talking about dropping out of school or stopping homeschooling for years at a time. I NEVER advocated that.

 

I was talking about changing tracks for valid reasons. Life isn't over if your high school student doesn't have a foreign language or 4 years of math and science, culminating in AP exams.

 

Oh, terribly sorry, I have obviously missed a post! Well, I'll leave my mis-reply up so your response makes sense. I thought you were replying to a different post which implied that there are valid reasons that people stop for months at a time.

 

My apologies. I do think that the specifics you mentioned I have seen concurrently with APs, but APs really don't have to do with that at all and are supposed to be a very select group of students, so I don't advocate for everyone to be in APs anyway.

[unsinkable]

Oh, terribly sorry, I have obviously missed a post! Well, I'll leave my mis-reply up so your response makes sense. I thought you were replying to a different post which implied that there are valid reasons that people stop for months at a time.

 

My apologies. I do think that the specifics you mentioned I have seen concurrently with APs, but APs really don't have to do with that at all and are supposed to be a very select group of students, so I don't advocate for everyone to be in APs anyway.

It was a rabbit trail that began in response to Faith's assertion that once high school begins all your flexibility is gone bc everything is leading to foreign language, physics, AP exams, etc.

 

Not everyone is on that track, for valid reasons.

 

Edited to add: AGAIN...not advocating years off of school or months. Just in case people have missed it.

[Sahamamama]

A ten year old in MUS Alpha is way behind in math. Unless the child has a learning disability (which has not been mentioned and which, if present, needs serious attention), then the parent is simply not teaching her kid math for him to be that far behind. The fact that he is "currently working through" MUS Alpha does indeed indicate that no school (or very little) has been done for a long time.

 

As far as unschooling: I was recently explaining it to my kids because one of their friends said something derogatory to my son about having to do schoolwork because he (friend) unschools and doesn't do any schoolwork. I explained the philosophy of unschooling and did not mention anything value-laden. We know unschoolers whose kids are doing great things, so I don't have a negative opinion of it even if it's not what I choose for my kids. Anyway, my son, who is 12, said to me, "Unschooling would work great for [my sister] because she just likes to learn and find out about all kinds of things. It wouldn't work for me, though. I wouldn't really work if you didn't make me." Now, my son is a bright, curious kid who learns tons of things that interest him, and I think that's great. But he also has dyslexia and struggles greatly with math. He would not work on these things if I didn't make him. Who really wants to spend a lot of time slogging through stuff that is really tough for you but which you know comes pretty easily to a lot of other kids? I know I don't/wouldn't. My son knows that about himself. And I'm not about to set my son up to be so far behind that if/when he decided he needed to work on those things it would be a losing battle for him.

 

I have always found it curious that unschoolers, who by virtue of being unschoolers have rejected a one-size idea of education, seem to be some of the most strident one-size advocates when it comes to promoting unschooling.

 

I absolutely agree, but it's hard to know what to do or say when a parent states something like, "I got out MUS Alpha for [child's name, a 10 year old] the other day, and told her that she could do it, if she wants to." And that is the extent of that "homeschooling" parent's involvement in her daughter's learning for the year! I did ask, "Do you require her to do anything?" and the answer was no. So here's a 10 year old who cannot add, cannot subtract, let alone multiply, divide, measure, tell time, count money, or work with fractions. I never do know what to do with this situation. I do wonder, "Why is she telling me this?" I conclude it's just conversation in this case, with my acquaintance.

 

Chelli, I went back and skimmed most of the nine or ten pages of this thread, and I have come to a somewhat different conclusion (than what I posted above). What do you and this person have in common, really? If she was someone you saw regularly, were thrown in with regularly, someone who lived close by, and you had other values in common, it might be worth the effort to work on the friendship and see if you can help these children. But in light of the rest of the picture of this family's lifestyle and laziness (IMO), why bother? Seriously, why bother? Since the entire picture is one of your friend (and her husband) being simply too lazy to clean their house or wash their dishes or teach their children to write, read, or do basic math -- or whatever -- what difference will your investment make? It's like pouring water in a sieve, IME.

 

If the situation involves illness or disability or other extenuating circumstances, then you can make allowances for that, but the children still ought to have a right to learn. And, (IMO) it's possible to keep a home in a healthy and orderly way. People just have to grow up and do it. Same with homeschooling. Either do it, or put the kids in school. Good grief.

 

I don't know. If I really wanted to help the children, if I thought that "someone should," then I might take it upon myself to be that someone and report that family. I would probably start with the school system, but it depends on the laws in your state. I don't know, though, we've struggled with this question here, too, in much the same circumstances (filthy house, neurologically typical children way behind in all basic subjects, parents laughing it off for years). What to do? There are no easy answers, honestly.

 

Again, I previously didn't believe that anyone should oversee another person's parenting, and I used to be a social worker. You can go back and search my posts to see that I was very "hands-off" and MYOB a few years ago. But I've changed (I think). I'm still not sure. OTOH, I don't want other people, especially the state, telling me what to do. OTOH, well... I've seen children in my state being truly neglected, educationally, and am almost on the verge of wanting some regulation, for their sake (we currently have none). Nothing drastic or overbearing, like in PA, but just some means of holding parents accountable for meeting, in some way, the basic educational needs of their children.

 

I wonder how a state differentiates between this type of "homeschooling" and truancy? What really is the difference, except for the label the parents are using? I think it's worth noting that the root for "truant" comes from the Old French word for "beggar, vagabond, idler," which is related to an Old Celtic word for "wretched."

 

I'm very politically conservative, but I do think that we all have some "vested interest" in the ability of other people's children to handle adult life when they reach it. Even if only from a purely selfish motive, we have a vested interest in asking, "What are these children going to do to meet their basic needs as adults?" They are going to climb on the back of your hard-working child and get a ride, that's what. They are going to sit up at the farmer's table, as though they grew the food.

 

I'm fulfilling my part as a parent, but other people don't seem to grasp that their children will not be ready to meet adult life when childhood ends. And the question I ask myself is, "Do I have another part to play as a citizen, as a neighbor, as an advocate for uneducated or undereducated children? Or even as my child's parent?"

[Chelli]

So I need some advice about the 10 year old.....

 

I asked a follow up question about math with my friend. She said the 10 year old started Alpha 3 1/2 years ago and they have been working on it sporadically since then. The twins (8) started Alpha last year. After this new bit of information, I feel like something needs to be done for the 10 year old with math. I know that there isn't really a "behind" in homeschooling since each student works at their own pace, but spending 3 1/2 years in Alpha feels like there hasn't really been ANY pace. Should I suggest she start Alpha over with him and work through it consistently every day or should I have her test him into something like CLE math that will be more student driven and spiral? 

 

I haven't even talked to her yet about the writing/handwriting concerns.......

 

Again, please don't quote the above post since I will probably come back and delete the personal details about this family later.

 

I know some of you think I'm crazy for involving myself since I'm not very close in either distance or attachment to this family, but when someone lays a problem at my feet like this, especially involving children, for my own peace of mind, I have to try to do something.

[Tsuga]

I thought they were friends. That's why I said I'd get involved, because that is what friendship means to me. Of course, this is a first try.

 

Eventually you let it go...

 

 

 

 They are going to climb on the back of your hard-working child and get a ride, that's what. They are going to sit up at the farmer's table, as though they grew the food.

 

You know what's funny? My conservative BIL and cousin in law came up with this thought too. We were laughing so hard... like, "so, when you think long term you decide that prevention is effective? I guess that means you're liberals now?" Tears rolling down our cheeks. I guess I wonder why conservatives think we work for equal opportunity in the first place... as if I look at my tax bill and think, "I sure hope this goes towards an adult who squandered every opportunity he had in life."

 

Believe me it never was, "I really would love to have to work to feed and clothe 3 adults because they don't like working." Nope. And yet those adults WILL be on our backs, conservative or liberal. They're going to be in line. And they're going to make babies, whom they cannot feed.

 

Because if you thought unschooling science was fun, wait until you experience unschooling sex education.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Chelli, I'd tell her to switch to CLE. MUS isn't working for their family, for whatever reason. Maybe she doesn't understand it or doesn't like it -- there may be a reason she can't stay engaged with this particular curriculum. She should just let it go and try CLE which is straightforward, written to the student, understandable by parents, and COMMIT.

 

Committing is the hard part, personality-wise, but it's easier to commit to something you and your children can easily understand.

[albeto.]

So I need some advice.....

 

I think the advice to find out the obstacles to her homeschooling as mentioned upthread is spot on. If she wants to educate at home but doesn't have organizational skills, my opinion would be different than if she resents the burden but is taking it on because she feels she has to. There are ways to incorporate learning outside structured textbooks, but many people find a structured, consistent schedule more effective. I know for myself, as much as I'd love to have a structured, consistent schedule, I'm incapable of maintaining it longer than three days. No amount of good advice would work if it required a structured, consistent schedule. I can help with learning math concepts in a more natural setting (through play and exploration), but if she's not interested in that approach, I don't want to waste your time.

[Outdoorsy Type]

I would suggest Teaching Textbooks. It starts in 3rd Grade, but many children at a late 1st Grade have started in TT 3.