hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Okay, true confession but we have set rules, including sleep times, for adult children living in our home. Our family operates in a first shift world where everyone is out of bed by 8:30 at the latest. first shift world - wow, never heard that phrase. It strikes me your family must be excluding a bunch of occupations. I worked shifts for years in law enforcement. My dd works in animal health care and I come from a family with a lot of various health care workers. Shifts are just reality for all of us. I cannot imagine asking adult kids to not take certain jobs or pursue certain professions (or actually even asking them to get up at certain times even if not job related...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 first shift world - wow, never heard that phrase. It strikes me your family must be excluding a bunch of occupations. I worked shifts for years in law enforcement. My dd works in animal health care and I come from a family with a lot of various health care workers. Shifts are just reality for all of us. I cannot imagine asking adult kids to not take certain jobs or pursue certain professions (or actually even asking them to get up at certain times even if not job related...) I don't know, I don't think it's unreasonable as long as they are living there rent free. I personally don't think it would be as big a deal in my house even with younger kids but we're fortunate to have enough room to spread out. I did ask my 18yo to send her boyfriend home at nine on weeknights because their laughing and movies and whatnot would bother the rest of her family no matter where they planted themselves. I think the point is to work things out with your adults and come to an agreement everyone can live with instead of just issuing orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Local? Screw that, I'd be moving to the other side of the country. Hello, Alaska. Yep. Or honestly, this is something where I could seriously consider joining the military as a desperation move (assuming physical condition passed muster.) It definitely gets you a paying job a hell of a long way away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Okay, true confession but we have set rules, including sleep times, for adult children living in our home. I don't see us as controlling but as parents trying to meet the needs of everyone in the family. I have no idea as to the Pennington's thought processes, but I wanted to share ours. Us too in many ways. Different aspects, but still a close parental involvement with our adult kids' lives. I also feel inclined to note the negative attitude seems rather ethnic to me? I don't think any of this is new in many families. In many ethnicities/cultures this is the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 first shift world - wow, never heard that phrase. It strikes me your family must be excluding a bunch of occupations. I worked shifts for years in law enforcement. My dd works in animal health care and I come from a family with a lot of various health care workers. Shifts are just reality for all of us. I cannot imagine asking adult kids to not take certain jobs or pursue certain professions (or actually even asking them to get up at certain times even if not job related...) Not sure why it deserves a wow -- it's just a reality for our family. I must not have given a clear explanation. I mean no offense to anyone. Our family just happens to operate in the 8-5 world based upon dh and my occupations. The adult ds who lives at home has not pursued an education or trade that requires shift work. If he had, then it would be open for discussion. Right now, he's our artsy child who is trying to find himself. Even if we had an adult child who needed to pursue a different shift of work and live at home, then they'd need to conform to our home schedule as much as possible. We still have a child homeschooling so the priority is there as much as it was when we were educating our older ones at home. Bluntly, the older dc are capable of providing for themselves. We parents want to help them as much as we can, including purchasing a home as debt-free as possible and helping with college tuition; however, that can't outweigh our obligation to our minor children. Now, if you had seen us in the late eighties to early nineties, you'd have found every shift under the sun in our household. Dh and I worked full time in a restuarant and in education while going to school and rasing a family. We also worked opposite each other as much as possible to avoid child care. It was a crazy hectic time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Quite honestly, artichoke, I think there's a large difference between ... hmm ... requesting harmonious behavior from an adult child in return for a rent-free place to stay, and attempting to punish them into it. It sounds like your consequence for not waking up early enough is getting woken up, as opposed to taking away their car keys for a week. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. When I moved back home, I didn't have my own bedroom (there just wasn't a spare bedroom), and my mother wanted me to not stay up after midnight so as not to keep my younger siblings awake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Us too in many ways. Different aspects, but still a close parental involvement with our adult kids' lives. I also feel inclined to note the negative attitude seems rather ethnic to me? I don't think any of this is new in many families. In many ethnicities/cultures this is the norm. Yes, this. I think other cultures tend to pull together more than later American cultures do. We're happy to have our adult children live at home in order to better themselves and their financial situations. It's not a a matter of controlling our children but in working together and pooling resources for success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, this. I think other cultures tend to pull together more than later American cultures do. We're happy to have our adult children live at home in order to better themselves and their financial situations. It's not a a matter of controlling our children but in working together and pooling resources for success. Very much so. I am not even sure american culture exisit in any sort of clear defined manner other than individualistic. Maybe. There are many families who have traditionally lived this way regardless of what the wasp Americans were doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Xuzi, on 12 Feb 2015 - 7:12 PM, said:From her Facebook page about an hour ago: well, the acid test has yet to be proven. we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Lawyer&Mom, on 12 Feb 2015 - 7:20 PM, said:I've been trying to figure out what I would do if I was her lawyer. (This is so not my area of law.) Maybe sue the local registrar for the birth certificate, just so you could subpoena the dad as a third party witness. If the dad refused to testify, he would likely be disbarred. (As an attorney he is considered an officer of the court and is expected to respect the judiciary.) Being disbarred as an attorney could easily put his CPA license in jeopardy. Of course we can hope that a strongly worded letter from her lawyer will bring the same outcome. It would certainly resolve things more quickly. I question whether he really is an attorney or not. different sites have conflicting information. some only say he is an accountant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, this. I think other cultures tend to pull together more than later American cultures do. We're happy to have our adult children live at home in order to better themselves and their financial situations. It's not a a matter of controlling our children but in working together and pooling resources for success. Oh there ITA with you. In my family and my culture, parents help their adult children and v.v. our city is #2 in the world for real estate/median income so living with parents is very financially prudent and sometimes just plain necessary. I guess we're just more relaxed about certain things. For a while I was the person who came home latest as I taught night school. we live in a small home with 3 dogs who announce everyone's return with much joyous baying so it's hard to sneak in quietly too lol ... The wow was really not meant to be offensive either - I just have never heard that term and had to think what it might mean. Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Honestly, I don't think it's so terrible to expect your adult child - or any other adult - to be able to speak rationally and politely to the person (parent or otherwise) from whom they want something. IMO it is a life skill. Now I realize there could be more than that going on here, but I read a lot of outrage about the fact that the family is saying "if she would just speak nicely." I don't jump to accommodate anyone who treats me like crap, family member or not. I don't blame the parents for wanting their daughter to come and talk to them. I think they are hoping to start repairing the relationship. I can understand that it would be hard to give her what she needs to cut them off forever. They probably feel the grandparents and/or other parties are egging her on and encouraging her to do what isn't best in the long run. I mean, aren't there a lot of spouses who say "I don't want a divorce/separation" when the other spouse wants one? Is that such a strange reaction? The parties are both adults, and yet one wants to stop the other from leaving forever. I think the unusual choices this family has made over the years are coloring people's reaction to the present moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And my parents also treated me like their kid when I lived at home past 18. It is their house and a lot of things require mutual effort, so there should be mutual sacrifice and respect. I didn't always like it at the time, oh no, because I was young and stupid. A 19yo is not that much different from a 17yo. Even now some things in my life are effectively dictated by other people, to whom I need to be respectful. Is that not the case for most of you? Don't many / most of you arrange some part of your lives to accommodate the needs of your spouse / children / parents / boss etc.? I mean, I have to wake up by around 7am to get my kids up and out 7 days a week. I am an adult. Should I run away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Currently, we have one adult son at home who is not attending college but working instead. We've vetoed second and third shift jobs for our adult child who is living at home because it made things too difficult with younger children and adult child's sleep times. We have made temporary exceptions during the Christmas season when ds was offered fabulous wages for double and overnight shifts. You'd kick my dh with his incredibly lucrative night job out of the house, I guess. He's been supporting all of us on it for many years now. But he needs to go to bed by 8:30, not get up. I don't understand how this isn't controlling. Or how it isn't incredibly limiting for young people trying to get work, which often leans toward service and retail and doesn't have a "first shift" option for people passing through not wanting it to be a career. Or why having one grown up on a different schedule necessarily disrupts the sleep of the kids. That has not been our experience at all - and we live in a creaky old house with thin walls. I don't have adult kids yet. But this is one of those things where I'm like, what's really important. For me, if my kids are home as adults, I can't imagine I'd prevent them from taking paying jobs they wanted to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You'd kick my dh with his incredibly lucrative night job out of the house, I guess. He's been supporting all of us on it for many years now. But he needs to go to bed by 8:30, not get up. I don't understand how this isn't controlling. Or how it isn't incredibly limiting for young people trying to get work, which often leans toward service and retail and doesn't have a "first shift" option for people passing through not wanting it to be a career. Or why having one grown up on a different schedule necessarily disrupts the sleep of the kids. That has not been our experience at all - and we live in a creaky old house with thin walls. I don't have adult kids yet. But this is one of those things where I'm like, what's really important. For me, if my kids are home as adults, I can't imagine I'd prevent them from taking paying jobs they wanted to take. Where did you get the idea that a working parent in our home would be "kicked out of the house?" if anything, the situation described reflects a household that is on a day time schedule because that's when our outside jobs and activities take place. I think my use of the words -- first shift world -- are coming cross as offensive when they're certainly not meant to cast a slur on anyone. I simply used it as a description of our schedule. If you read all of my posts, you'd see that dh and I both have worked crazy shifts around the clock. When that was our reality, our household functioned to accommodate it. I'd go back to edit the phrase, but that might cause more confusion since it's been discussed several times. As for controlling, our household has set rules and expectations for all members who live here. All of our children know these things before making a decision to stay at home through adulthood. I don't think it's controlling to have set expectations and evidently neither do our adult children who have enjoyed the benefit of rent-free living. Eta: When we talk about controlling, I'm thinking of it in terms of controlling our children which is something we don't do. We do however, control our household, if that makes any sense. I guess it may seem like the same thing to some, but if an adult child chooses to live someplace else, then that's totally fine. We want all of our children to grow and be independent and lead fulfilling lives. As strange as it sounds, I don't think of our adult child living at home as one of the children. I tend to think of him as an adult. For example, when I post about our children left at home, I almost always say that we only have one child left at home. The adult child living at home isn't in the same category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 My 18 year old has his own apartment. I'm very proud that he wants to be independent and is willing to have a lower standard of living than he would if he stayed at home. He made this choice so that he could make his own way in the world. I, of course, did everything in my power to help him become independent. When he left, I told him that he didn't owe me anything. All of my sacrifices over the year were my choice...my pleasure. He stops by to visit, or take one of his sisters out for a treat. I also meet him in town and take him to dinner once a week, but he isn't obliged to do that. My 20 year old lives at home and will probably continue doing so for the foreseeable future as she pursues multiple degrees. She doesn't pay rent. She doesn't have chores. She doesn't have a bedtime of a wake time. She is an adult. She freely chooses to make meals for the family, clean, care for the younger girls and do projects around the house. She does that not because it is a rule, not because it is my house, but because she is an adult with a strong desire to contribute and be helpful. I feel sorry for the entire Pennington family. I'm sorry that the daughter doesn't have parental support to grow up and become independent and become her own person. I'm sorry that her parents don't understand that love that isn't given freely, love with strings attached, is no kind of love at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 <snip> Even now some things in my life are effectively dictated by other people, to whom I need to be respectful. Is that not the case for most of you? Don't many / most of you arrange some part of your lives to accommodate the needs of your spouse / children / parents / boss etc.? I mean, I have to wake up by around 7am to get my kids up and out 7 days a week. I am an adult. Should I run away? That's not a valid comparison at all. Your kids are of course your responsibility. You chose to have kids, and, to some extent, you choose to have a schedule that requires you to be wake up at 7 am every day of the week (weekends in particular). Even if we all agree that it's fine to require everyone in a household to be up at 7, it's not running away for her to leave that household. She's 18 and doesn't have responsibilities tying her to that household. She moved out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I mean, aren't there a lot of spouses who say "I don't want a divorce/separation" when the other spouse wants one? Is that such a strange reaction? The parties are both adults, and yet one wants to stop the other from leaving forever. Of course there are. But it's illegal to withhold your spouse's papers to STOP them from leaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Even if we all agree that it's fine to require everyone in a household to be up at 7, it's not running away for her to leave that household. She's 18 and doesn't have responsibilities tying her to that household. She moved out. Right, she moved out. Fine and dandy. Moving out is not the same as severing a relationship between parent and child. Of course that is one's right as well at 18, but it usually isn't a good and healthy thing to do. If I were faced with that situation, I would not hold out forever, but I would ask my offspring to come and talk to me vs. coldly demand what she wants from a distance. Notwithstanding the arbitrary legal cutoff of the 18th birthday, I don't see too many parents really ready to stop being their child's mother right then. We all have different ways to continue to support, guide, and enjoy our kids after that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Quite honestly, artichoke, I think there's a large difference between ... hmm ... requesting harmonious behavior from an adult child in return for a rent-free place to stay, and attempting to punish them into it. It sounds like your consequence for not waking up early enough is getting woken up, as opposed to taking away their car keys for a week. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. When I moved back home, I didn't have my own bedroom (there just wasn't a spare bedroom), and my mother wanted me to not stay up after midnight so as not to keep my younger siblings awake. I thought they took the keys from the family car, not the adult child's car, which they also seem to have. But that's splitting hairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Of course there are. But it's illegal to withhold your spouse's papers to STOP them from leaving. Probably, but I guarantee that a lot of spouses don't jump right up and do the other spouse's bidding on the petitioning spouse's timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Probably, but I guarantee that a lot of spouses don't jump right up and do the other spouse's bidding on the petitioning spouse's timeline. A lot of people also do a lot of reprehensible and illegal things. It doesn't mean that they are morally defensible. Edit: This is not just "not on her timeline". They have been stalling her for MONTHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 My 18 year old has his own apartment. I'm very proud that he wants to be independent and is willing to have a lower standard of living than he would if he stayed at home. He made this choice so that he could make his own way in the world. I, of course, did everything in my power to help him become independent. When he left, I told him that he didn't owe me anything. All of my sacrifices over the year were my choice...my pleasure. He stops by to visit, or take one of his sisters out for a treat. I also meet him in town and take him to dinner once a week, but he isn't obliged to do that. My 20 year old lives at home and will probably continue doing so for the foreseeable future as she pursues multiple degrees. She doesn't pay rent. She doesn't have chores. She doesn't have a bedtime of a wake time. She is an adult. She freely chooses to make meals for the family, clean, care for the younger girls and do projects around the house. She does that not because it is a rule, not because it is my house, but because she is an adult with a strong desire to contribute and be helpful. I feel sorry for the entire Pennington family. I'm sorry that the daughter doesn't have parental support to grow up and become independent and become her own person. I'm sorry that her parents don't understand that love that isn't given freely, love with strings attached, is no kind of love at all. :001_wub: Will you be my Valentine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I feel sorry for the entire Pennington family. I'm sorry that the daughter doesn't have parental support to grow up and become independent and become her own person. I'm sorry that her parents don't understand that love that isn't given freely, love with strings attached, is no kind of love at all. This. This. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 A lot of people also do a lot of reprehensible and illegal things. It doesn't mean that they are morally defensible. Edit: This is not just "not on her timeline". They have been stalling her for MONTHS. We don't know the whole story. It could have gone like this: "Mom, I've moved out and now give me a copy of my birth certificate." "I don't have a copy, see if you can get it from the county registrar (or wherever)." Girl requests bc and learns it probably does not exist. This takes time. Girl spends more time finding out the procedure for ordering a late birth certificate. Girl spends more time assembling documents, preparing the application, and waiting for the response. Girl chose grandparent for affidavit because she doesn't want to talk to her mom. Girl gets a rejection letter and then goes to a series of politicians and legal clinics to try to get help from anyone rather than nicely ask her mom. There are long holidays in the interim and all this could easily take months. Finally girl realizes she will have a lot more trouble if she doesn't get her mom to sign an affidavit. So she demands it of her mom, and her mom says, "you need to come over and talk to me in a civil manner if you want me to sign something." Girl gets on social media to tell the whole world that her mom is hell-bent on ruining her life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Finally girl realizes she will have a lot more trouble if she doesn't get her mom to sign an affidavit. So she demands it of her mom, and her mom says, "you need to come over and talk to me in a civil manner if you want me to sign something." This is the point which is reprehensible. Sorry. I don't care what or how the daughter has said. Attempting to relegate your daughter to an undocumented status because you want her to talk to you is repulsive. Refusing to sign an affidavit that she was born is the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Children are not our property. Children should not be used to make a political, religous, or other statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This is the point which is reprehensible. Sorry. I don't care what or how the daughter has said. Attempting to relegate your daughter to an undocumented status because you want her to talk to you is repulsive. Refusing to sign an affidavit that she was born is the same thing. Well I am pretty sure my mom would have said "come over and talk to me if you want me to sign something." I think it is perfectly reasonable. I think it is pretty awful if the daughter is refusing to do it. I don't know that there is a legal timeline for doing that. I can't think of any legal requirement that has to be done on or around the day it is requested. Usually there is a fair amount of time provided and you can request extensions. There is no law that says a person can throw a tantrum and demand a signature on their personal timetable, regardless of what the document is. Like I said, I fail to see what is reprehensible, repulsive, etc. about asking your kid to talk to you. I think it is a shame if this girl is refusing to do it. Of course we do not know if that is really the case or not - maybe she was civil and reasonable and her mom is a loon. We don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Like I said, I fail to see what is reprehensible, repulsive, etc. about asking your kid to talk to you. I think it is a shame if this girl is refusing to do it. Of course we do not know if that is really the case or not - maybe she was civil and reasonable and her mom is a loon. We don't know. Nothing is wrong with asking your kid to talk to you. Something is wrong with refusing to get them vital documentation unless they talk to you. Edit: Honestly if they had signed the stuff for the birth certificate and the kid had gone off I would feel quite bad for the parents, that they can't even get a "I'm still alive" update. I have a relative who has left home and refused to speak to his mother for many years now. As a matter of fact, he had a lawyer send a letter saying to not ever contact him again. His mother still forwarded his stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 kiana, on 13 Feb 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:kiana, on 13 Feb 2015 - 07:39 AM, said: Nothing is wrong with asking your kid to talk to you. Something is wrong with refusing to get them vital documentation unless they talk to you. Edit: Honestly if they had signed the stuff for the birth certificate and the kid had gone off I would feel quite bad for the parents, that they can't even get a "I'm still alive" update. I have a relative who has left home and refused to speak to his mother for many years now. As a matter of fact, he had a lawyer send a letter saying to not ever contact him again. His mother still forwarded his stuff. initially after she moved out, they *said* they would give her what she wants - but she had to do what they wanted first. they had even told her they would give her everything she wanted - but they also wanted her to move back home and do whatever they told her. that is NOT the parents being cooperative and treating their child like an adult. that is a direct attempt at manipulating their own adult child. even the oldest two who have drivers licenses, still do not have birth certificates or SSNs - that comes from the siblings own letters and admissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Okay, true confession but we have set rules, including sleep times, for adult children living in our home. Our family operates in a first shift world where everyone is out of bed by 8:30 at the latest. There are exceptions like the college kids home for a few days who are super exhausted. They're welcome to sleep as long as needed. When they're home for extended periods of time, we do wake them by 8:30 if they're not already up. Although we only have four children there is a large age span which affects how our adult children have to behave when living at home. Currently, we have one adult son at home who is not attending college but working instead. We've vetoed second and third shift jobs for our adult child who is living at home because it made things too difficult with younger children and adult child's sleep times. We have made temporary exceptions during the Christmas season when ds was offered fabulous wages for double and overnight shifts. Our goal, shared by our dc, is not to keep our children at home but to help them to purchase homes as debt-free as possible. They' re free to leave at anytime. OTOH, we don't take rent from our adult child as long as he's saving the money towards a house. We don't examine his bank statements; his word is enough for us. I don't see us as controlling but as parents trying to meet the needs of everyone in the family. I have no idea as to the Pennington's thought processes, but I wanted to share ours. Above is your entire post that people are responding to, bolding mine. While you didn't say you'd kick out an adult who isn't on first shift, you say you vetoed second and third shift. What if it was the only job he could find? What if it was the one he really, really wanted, or the one that paid best (allowing him to save faster for his own place)? What if he said, respectfully, "Sorry Mom and Dad, this is the job that I feel is best for me at this time." and he took it anyway? Would you kick him out or not? i can not imagine telling an adult child what job they can or can't have, or what time they need to get up and/or go to bed*. I am speaking as someone who once had an adult child living at home. Dss lived at home from age 20 - 23 (he came back after moving out). We treated him like the adult he was. We had expectations one would have of another adult living in the house. We asked that if he was not going to be there for dinner, that he let me know so I wouldn't make too much food or wait for him. We asked that he be quiet if he came home late, whether he was late because of a job or he just went out with friends (ds is 20 years younger, so he was an infant - toddler during this time, so I experienced the large age span too). We expected him to clean up after himself, do his own laundry, and pitch in with housework. We didn't take any rent from him at the time, but he did contribute to the grocery budget. *The exception would be an adult child who isn't taking responsibility for him or herself. If said adult child was neither going to college, working, or actively seeking employment, I would agree completely with conditions for continuing to live at home. If the adult child is being a responsible adult, then their lives are their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 they *said* they would give her what she wants - but she had to do what they wanted first. they had even told her they would give her everything she wanted - but they also wanted her to move back home and do whatever they told her. that is NOT the parents being cooperative and treating their child like an adult. that is a direct attempt at manipulating their own adult child. even the oldest two who have drivers licenses, still do not have birth certificates or SSNs - that comes from the siblings own letters and admissions. I believe she stated on the list of documentation that she does have that Texas now requires a SSN to get a drivers license. This could be a change from when the older siblings got their licenses and another reason she is having difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Probably, but I guarantee that a lot of spouses don't jump right up and do the other spouse's bidding on the petitioning spouse's timeline. She spent four months trying to get documents from them, before she went public. That's hardly expecting them to jump right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If I'd been raised as this girl was raised, and I managed to get out, I'd not be 100% confident of my safety if I went back home for the mandatory discussion. I'd wonder if I'd be beaten or locked up or (at the least) screamed at. At the very least I'd expect a horrible, horrible, horrible dramatic afternoon in which my parents fall apart, the younger kids are terrorized by the drama, and the neighbors get quite a show, with no guarantee of getting the document which might not exist. Look at that blog post by her mother, falling over with Sturm und Drang because her adult daughter moved in with her grandparents. If the woman bleeds irrational emotion all over her blog to strangers that way, what do you think she pours out on her own kids? Expecting Alecia to re-enter Crazytown in search of the docs is unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This is the point which is reprehensible. Sorry. I don't care what or how the daughter has said. Attempting to relegate your daughter to an undocumented status because you want her to talk to you is repulsive. Refusing to sign an affidavit that she was born is the same thing. Yes, if this is true. But it doesn't have to be as straightforward. Words can be twisted out of context, especially emotional words. Playing the devil's advocate here: Daughter: I hate you! You are a phoney! You pretend to be such a nice person on your blog but in reality you are a controlling, manipulative piece of sh*t! And you never took me to Disney land! And you never let me paint my room glossy black! I want my birth certificate now, you, b*tch! Mail it to me because I never ever want to see you again!" Mother: Honey, I love you, let's just talk. I'm sure we can work things out. I love you. Just come over and we'll talk. Please. (as opposed to, "I respect your independence and your right to never see me again. It's in the mail. Bye.") Daughter to the media: My mother won't give me my birth certificate unless I succumb to her will! Media: Awwwwwwww....Poor kid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 As strange as it sounds, I don't think of our adult child living at home as one of the children. I tend to think of him as an adult. For example, when I post about our children left at home, I almost always say that we only have one child left at home. The adult child living at home isn't in the same category. This seems rather contradictory because you don't treat them like adults. I married rather late in life, and while I was single I often had roommates. While we all expected each other to respect our sleep/wake/work hours, no one was told what time to get up or what jobs and work hours were acceptable. I once had a roommate who worked a "normal" 8-5 job while I was a bartender at night. He was usually up and getting ready for work shortly after I went to bed. I would be heading off to work around the time he got home. (Yes, he. We were simply roommates.) While most of the time my roommates and I had similar work schedules, it wasn't always so. As long as we respected one another, that didn't matter. And that's what it's like to live in a house with other adults. While you might think you think of them as simply adults living in your home, that's really not what's going on. Not if you dictate sleep/wake times and work hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If I'd been raised as this girl was raised, and I managed to get out, I'd not be 100% confident of my safety if I went back home for the mandatory discussion. I'd wonder if I'd be beaten or locked up or (at the least) screamed at. At the very least I'd expect a horrible, horrible, horrible dramatic afternoon in which my parents fall apart, the younger kids are terrorized by the drama, and the neighbors get quite a show, with no guarantee of getting the document which might not exist. Look at that blog post by her mother, falling over with Sturm und Drang because her adult daughter moved in with her grandparents. If the woman bleeds irrational emotion all over her blog to strangers that way, what do you think she pours out on her own kids? Expecting Alecia to re-enter Crazytown in search of the docs is unreasonable. I've barely been to the forum today or yesterday yet somehow I managed to run out of likes. LIKE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Nothing is wrong with asking your kid to talk to you. Something is wrong with refusing to get them vital documentation unless they talk to you. Exactly. They are not asking; they are blackmailing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Above is your entire post that people are responding to, bolding mine. While you didn't say you'd kick out an adult who isn't on first shift, you say you vetoed second and third shift. What if it was the only job he could find? What if it was the one he really, really wanted, or the one that paid best (allowing him to save faster for his own place)? What if he said, respectfully, "Sorry Mom and Dad, this is the job that I feel is best for me at this time." and he took it anyway? Would you kick him out or not? i But--- the son doesn't have to live at home. He is old enough to take care of himself. If these are the rules of the house because it makes life easier for the majority of the people, what harm is being done? I don't get the feeling that she'd kick her son out of the house because he wants a job that takes place at night. If he wants to live there, then it's just easier for everyone if he doesn't take that job. If he knows all of this going into the arrangement, then he has a choice to stay in the house and take a job during the day--- or move out and take a job at night. If he finds the most amazing job ever and it only happens at night--- OK... he's old enough to move out and make it happen. In many ways, these hard decisions help us grow. And in the end, that's what most parents want for their children: to grow up and be as independent as they can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 She spent four months trying to get documents from them, before she went public. That's hardly expecting them to jump right up. Again, we do not know what she spent 4 months doing. We know that she claims to have requested it and been refused. (Which other family members dispute.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This seems rather contradictory because you don't treat them like adults. I married rather late in life, and while I was single I often had roommates. While we all expected each other to respect our sleep/wake/work hours, no one was told what time to get up or what jobs and work hours were acceptable. I once had a roommate who worked a "normal" 8-5 job while I was a bartender at night. He was usually up and getting ready for work shortly after I went to bed. I would be heading off to work around the time he got home. (Yes, he. We were simply roommates.) While most of the time my roommates and I had similar work schedules, it wasn't always so. As long as we respected one another, that didn't matter. And that's what it's like to live in a house with other adults. While you might think you think of them as simply adults living in your home, that's really not what's going on. Not if you dictate sleep/wake times and work hours. You expected your roommates to respect your sleep/wake/work hours : just like the poster in question is asking her young adult son to do for the rest of the family (and vice versa). You aren't going to say to a roommate: hey... you can't work that job-- it doesn't work for me. But, you could decide that his work situation wasn't working for you, and look for a way to move out or find a new roommate. I'm not seeing how this is much different to what her son is being made to decide. He might think: we're all working the same 'shift' so we can be respectful of each other's sleep/wake/work hrs. Hmm... this night job looks amazing. If I want to work that job, I'm going to probably need to find a different living situation. Do I want that job? Is it worth it? Lots of decisions in life. Some are not always easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This seems rather contradictory because you don't treat them like adults. I married rather late in life, and while I was single I often had roommates. While we all expected each other to respect our sleep/wake/work hours, no one was told what time to get up or what jobs and work hours were acceptable. I once had a roommate who worked a "normal" 8-5 job while I was a bartender at night. He was usually up and getting ready for work shortly after I went to bed. I would be heading off to work around the time he got home. (Yes, he. We were simply roommates.) While most of the time my roommates and I had similar work schedules, it wasn't always so. As long as we respected one another, that didn't matter. And that's what it's like to live in a house with other adults. While you might think you think of them as simply adults living in your home, that's really not what's going on. Not if you dictate sleep/wake times and work hours. The tricky part is who owns the house. If you have roommates and you're all more or less equal on the lease, that is a very different situation than when you own a home and rent out some rooms (in which case you're pretty much the boundary setter); and one step further down the chain is to own a home and let others live there without paying rent at all. Now granted, it's your kid, you want to be the one he always knows he can come home to, but in terms of accommodation, the onus is much more on the adult kid in that scenerio than in the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 even the oldest two who have drivers licenses, still do not have birth certificates or SSNs - that comes from the siblings own letters and admissions. Are you saying this because you consider the older two to have also been abused? Because if not, then I think you are just saying she has been treated similarly to the older (non-disgruntled) siblings. In my day, nobody had a SSN until they wanted a temporary driving permit. You didn't need one for anything until you wanted to drive or have a regular paying job. We did have a bc and we used it to apply for the SSN. I don't think SSN is a big deal at all. As for the bc, apparently this family is among the minority who don't believe in getting a bc at birth. I wouldn't make the same choice, but I don't see it as abuse. I think it's a problem for the girl now, yes, but at the same time I am not sure it's all on the parents. The girl may be one of the many (including myself) who acted like an a$$ toward her mom and is now unwilling to go back and apologize and show proper respect. The difference is that I didn't have outside people encouraging me to sever the relationship and be a bigger a$$ than before. Ultimately giving the girl the affidavit is the right thing to do, but I can understand the request to talk first. That's all I'm saying. I don't know whether this girl gave her mom a real chance or not before going to public media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Above is your entire post that people are responding to, bolding mine. While you didn't say you'd kick out an adult who isn't on first shift, you say you vetoed second and third shift. What if it was the only job he could find? What if it was the one he really, really wanted, or the one that paid best (allowing him to save faster for his own place)? What if he said, respectfully, "Sorry Mom and Dad, this is the job that I feel is best for me at this time." and he took it anyway? Would you kick him out or not? i can not imagine telling an adult child what job they can or can't have, or what time they need to get up and/or go to bed*. I am speaking as someone who once had an adult child living at home. Dss lived at home from age 20 - 23 (he came back after moving out). We treated him like the adult he was. We had expectations one would have of another adult living in the house. We asked that if he was not going to be there for dinner, that he let me know so I wouldn't make too much food or wait for him. We asked that he be quiet if he came home late, whether he was late because of a job or he just went out with friends (ds is 20 years younger, so he was an infant - toddler during this time, so I experienced the large age span too). We expected him to clean up after himself, do his own laundry, and pitch in with housework. We didn't take any rent from him at the time, but he did contribute to the grocery budget. *The exception would be an adult child who isn't taking responsibility for him or herself. If said adult child was neither going to college, working, or actively seeking employment, I would agree completely with conditions for continuing to live at home. If the adult child is being a responsible adult, then their lives are their lives. Thanks for taking the time to read my entire post. Yes, you did bold my words that younger child/children and adult child's sleeping times didn't match which was a reason that we vetoed second and third shift jobs. ( sorry, having trouble with multi-quoting ) Adult child was a total bear and expected everyone to be completely quiet so that he could sleep during the day. Nope, that wasn't a healthy situation for our family so the rule was made that only first shift work and abiding by certain sleep hours was made. Ds decided to abide by those rules so he continued to live with us. If he had chosen otherwise, then we would have given him time to transition to another place to live. You may call that "kicking him out", but I don't. It's allowing our son to make his own choices about his living arrangements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Presumably Artichoke has given her son access to a real education and empowered him with options prior to setting conditions for him to live at home as an adult, unlike Alecia's parents. I don't think I would weigh in on an adult child's job schedule, but it isn't remotely in the same ballgame (much less ballpark!) as this nutty family! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This seems rather contradictory because you don't treat them like adults. I married rather late in life, and while I was single I often had roommates. While we all expected each other to respect our sleep/wake/work hours, no one was told what time to get up or what jobs and work hours were acceptable. I once had a roommate who worked a "normal" 8-5 job while I was a bartender at night. He was usually up and getting ready for work shortly after I went to bed. I would be heading off to work around the time he got home. (Yes, he. We were simply roommates.) While most of the time my roommates and I had similar work schedules, it wasn't always so. As long as we respected one another, that didn't matter. And that's what it's like to live in a house with other adults. While you might think you think of them as simply adults living in your home, that's really not what's going on. Not if you dictate sleep/wake times and work hours. I'll have to continue to disagree with you here. Dh and I see this as establishing what needs to happen for the entire household to function in a way that benefits everyone. Adult ds is free to leave our household at anytime with no hard feelings or manipulation from the family. He's made an adult decision to continue to live at home with our household rules in order to further his financial goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 ... Ultimately giving the girl the affidavit is the right thing to do, but I can understand the request to talk first. That's all I'm saying. I don't know whether this girl gave her mom a real chance or not before going to public media. I can understand the request to talk first for something like her childhood photos, or her computer, or clothes she left behind. This is none of those things. This is not something the parents should have the legal right, imo, to refuse at all. She needs the papers to drive, get a job, go to school, rent an apartment, vote, and/or otherwise participate at all in society as an adult. Her parents failed to file a BC for her; it is their responsibility to make that right now by giving her the papers she needs to function. It is not something they have a moral right to "trade" for talking, or good behavior, or reconciliation. It's just something that she deserves, point blank, no preconditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyhwkmama Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Thanks for taking the time to read my entire post. Yes, you did bold my words that younger child/children and adult child's sleeping times didn't match which was a reason that we vetoed second and third shift jobs. ( sorry, having trouble with multi-quoting ) Adult child was a total bear and expected everyone to be completely quiet so that he could sleep during the day. Nope, that wasn't a healthy situation for our family so the rule was made that only first shift work and abiding by certain sleep hours was made. Ds decided to abide by those rules so he continued to live with us. If he had chosen otherwise, then we would have given him time to transition to another place to live. You may call that "kicking him out", but I don't. It's allowing our son to make his own choices about his living arrangements. See, this is where I would have said "Work whatever job you want, but we own the house and are not going to be quiet during the day. Adjust your expectations or move out." I would never tell my adult child what shift he could work. I hope Alecia gets what she needs and can make a permanent break from what seem like extraordinarily controlling parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 These do not sound like the words of a horrible child intent on destroying her parents: "UPDATE: I have some wonderful news! My father has begun cooperating with us! He states he is willing to sign any documents, and give me any information he has concerning what I may need as proof. I would also like to ask that you do not post demeaning comments about my parents. Even though I do not agree with them on many things, I would like their reputation to be protected as much as possible. Thanks!" Her words are measured and classy. Her mother OTOH sounds emotionally unstable on that blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, if this is true. But it doesn't have to be as straightforward. Words can be twisted out of context, especially emotional words. Playing the devil's advocate here: Daughter: I hate you! You are a phoney! You pretend to be such a nice person on your blog but in reality you are a controlling, manipulative piece of sh*t! And you never took me to Disney land! And you never let me paint my room glossy black! I want my birth certificate now, you, b*tch! Mail it to me because I never ever want to see you again!" Mother: Honey, I love you, let's just talk. I'm sure we can work things out. I love you. Just come over and we'll talk. Please. (as opposed to, "I respect your independence and your right to never see me again. It's in the mail. Bye.") Daughter to the media: My mother won't give me my birth certificate unless I succumb to her will! Media: Awwwwwwww....Poor kid.... But see, here's the thing. Even if this is exactly how it went down, it is still NOT OKAY for her to withhold legal documents from another adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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